[Closed] FS 29ers - "xc" vs "trail bikes" ?

(& I have a nice 29er HT, that I mostly run SS rigid bit it can take gears and sus forks, so just overlapping with that in terms of functionality is pointless).

my nicolai helius AC has 120mm of controlled Horst Link stable platform.

it's a perfect trail bike.

gravity sports could hook you up on a nicolai within your upper budget i'd expect.....

[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8241/8458674400_1181c44d53.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8241/8458674400_1181c44d53.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/62031621@N06/8458674400/ ]IMAG0089[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/62031621@N06/ ]the_lecht_rocks[/url], on Flickr

oh, mine has a seemingly steep HA at around a measured 71 deg but it keeps the wheelbase shorter and it's brilliantly nimble for a wagon wheeler.

have a looky on twentynineinches.com they have some brilliant real world reviews of all the sorts of thing you want

I loved my Anthem, very capable xc bike. My Trance is a beast though and is much more at home on the trails

I've plumped for an Anthem X1, should have it in a couple of weeks to compliment my Kinesis FF29 HT; the Whyte is heavy and not as good spec for the same money IMHO.

You'll be surprised what you can ride with 'only' a 100mm 29'er, I'm faster both up & down at places such as Llandegla and The Marin, also Lee Quarry too on my Kinesis than I was on my 26" wheeled Nicolai Helius CC (130mm FS), so I can only imagine the Anthem is gonna be faster still, especially once it points down 😯

My non-trail center based riding takes in a lot of woodsy, rooty single track and again the 100mm 29'er is faster.

I can't offer anything more than questions I'm afraid, but why a 29er?

I'm also intrigued by the notion that you don't need long and slack bikes to get down technical stuff. I tend to agree that longer and slacker just lets you go down faster (with bigger consequences when you crash) but doesn't actually let you get down anything that you couldn't ride on a shorter travel, steeper bike.

That nicolai would be the perfect test of this theory I guess. A 71 degree HA with "only" 120mm of travel sounds as though it's not going to handle anything too technical. But it probably does just fine in the right hands.

FWIW (which is basically nothing) my totally subjective and uninformed choice would be an Orange Gyro.

Why FS? I have a SS rigid Curtis 29er for general xc use and just built a 2 souls quarterhorse as a trail bike, 140mm fork, dropper post, and 2 x 10, taking this to Spain later this year. Rides fantastic too.

Some of us are softer than you my friend!

Not much I can´t get down / have´t got down on the Orbea Occam I tested a while back. [url= http://www.basquemtb.com/orbea-occam-29er-s1-mountain-bike-review/ ]Orbea Occam S10[/url]

They do aluminium ones too which I´m hoping to test soon. I´d probably buy an Aluminium H30X I think it is, with the 120mm fork.

Thx all.

Why 29s? I'm a 29 convert. I don't want to get into 26 vs 29, but it's 29 for me.

Why FS? Because I have nice HT (which I happen to run SS rigid but coud take forks/gears) so I want something "more different" than a slacker HT.

But it's all to play for, perhaps I'll go full circle and stick with my Blur.

@vinny, what do you call a 'trail'? I was thinking this at CYB, the climbs are XC the descents are XC but a tiny bit steeper with a few tidy rocks.

I live & ride down south, I guess actually my experience of real 'trails' if that means the Lakes, Scotland etc, au naturel, is limited.

If you're after a more XC orientated bike then the C'Dale Scalpel 29er looks great. I've got the hardtail Flash alloy 29er and to be honest I use it more like a trail bike than an XC and it handles it fine. It also climbs like a train, really irons out the trail and is extremely manoeuvrable when things get technical (every bit as manoeuvrable as any 26er i've had, if not more). If the Scalpel is anything like the Flash, it'll be a real serious machine.

That Occam is nice. But £7k .. nah. Yes an aluminium version could be interesting.

Nicolais and Oranges always look a bit girdery to me, but I haven't ridden them. Yeah the Gyro could be a contender.

Scalpel - could be, thx for the idea. I don't think I have a dealer local.

I'd happily wheel a Trek Rumblefish out the bike shop door if I had a few G's spare. I couldn't believe a mountain bike could move so quick, but feel so in control. Absolutely not what I was expecting.

Went to a bike demo recently at Dalby & tried a Pace RC129, Santa Cruz Tallboy, Santa Cruz Superlight 29er, Santa Cruz TRc, Scott Genius 720 (650b) but the best & last bike I tested was a Scott Spark 920 (29er). It just felt right, light & capable.

In WhatMTB? there's a full range of short travel 29ers on test - the Whyte M109 won.

Or Salsa Spearfish custom build - frame £640.

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or the ellsworth are all ones I keep considereing

First ride on my Anthem X1 today and over the moon with it. Mines a 2013 model and got it for a cracking price. If your interested in one mail me and I'll put you in touch with the shop I got it from.

Steve thx I have a Giant dealer locally.

I love my Salsa Horsethief, it's chuffing awesome.

Matt, I was in the same boat last year. XC 29 or Trail version. From testing it was vey clear for me - XC bikes suited me much more thatpn trails bikes. Then like you, my head has been turned by Trance 29 ER. So doing a head to head demo of trance versus anthem to finally make my mind up!! I will report back!!! Of course, I am also complicating things by demoing a cube AMS 120 pro this week as well.

I have a Lapierre XR529 which is a 10.7kg 100mm XC race whippet(ish) after a wheel upgrade and love thrashing it round the trails. Here's some poorly angled GoPro clips from CYB for your comparison: [url=

The Devinci looks nice, and the Rocky, are you secret gearie Taz?

And any bike like the Rumblefish that has the shock inline below the top tube looks right to me.

There's too much choice really.

You really want a Nicolai.....
[url= http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8526/8481912373_6120a3616d.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8526/8481912373_6120a3616d.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/62031621@N06/8481912373/ ]IMAG0103[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/62031621@N06/ ]the_lecht_rocks[/url], on Flickr

@teamhurtmore I responded on the thread we were using a couple of days ago btw - there is a Giant dealer in Guildford in case you're not aware. Yeah report back pls!

sorry lecht but it totally does not float my boat visually! but I'll demo one if I can 4s, ta for the recommendation.

are you secret gearie Taz?

Only for serious stuff, considering the south downs double, 29er boing and gears perfect for the under 24hrs I want...will then do it SS for a personal challenge and aim for under 30

Only for serious stuff, considering the south downs double, 29er boing and gears perfect for the under 24hrs I want...will then do it SS for a personal challenge and aim for under 30

Count me in!! 😉

I have had a Specialized Camber since November and for me it does all the things you want it to. Climbs very well and has already saved me from some ambition over ability descents so far. Just need some nice dusty trails now like in the brochure.....

Sorry Matt I have been away. I know about the store thanks. Looking forward to straight head to head on the same runs. One day bashing around SH, the other more XC stuff up and around Punchbowl area. Should clarify the mind.

Tried a davinci 26 last summer, nice bike v other 26 trails (stumpy, fuel ex) but why the extra price? Can't see that one.

Count me in!!

for the SS or geared version clinky?

when it was all shiny and new....
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How about the canyon nerve 29, looks great on paper, just lack of test ride means its a bit of gamble. Tried and tested linkage though. Or transition bandit?

Count me in!!
for the SS or geared version clinky?

Either/both!

Canyons look OK Gotama, have you ridden one?

So 20 hours later I'm thinking for a trailsy XC/ST bike rather than a full-on trail bike. As someone said at the beginning, most bikes can get down most things, pilot allowing, and I'm not an edge of the seat rider anyway. Also I quite enjoy a bit of a climb.

And I'm thinking max budget £3k and a tad, to include dropper, but happy to spend less. Value is king. I'm liking the look of the M109S especially those wheels, but overall it comes out a bit heavy.

(or an XC-ST ish trail bike!)

With your budget Matt, you should also try the Spesh epic. IMO head and shoulders above other XCs I demoed when it came to climbing. Flew up Pitch Fire Roads as if it had a motor on it. Fast down and very manageable - but the difference not as noticeable against its brilliant climbing ability. I demoed the epic expert carbon (but sadly 4k, which I won't spend on a MTB)

As someone said at the beginning, most bikes can get down most things, pilot allowing, and I'm not an edge of the seat rider anyway. Also I quite enjoy a bit of a climb.

I think that was me, but would you really be comfortable riding down a steep technical section on something with 100mm of travel and a 71 degree HA? That's a genuine question. I have no idea, but would be nervous of getting a bike that would exclude me from some trails.

[IMG] [/IMG]

My Trance 29er in the Peaks yesterday....by god do I love it (my first full susser and first 29er). Feels so stable on descents and rolls over anything, rocks/boulders/walkers etc 🙂

Did I mention that I love it!

I think that was me, but would you really be comfortable riding down a steep technical section on something with 100mm of travel and a 71 degree HA? That's a genuine question. I have no idea, but would be nervous of getting a bike that would exclude me from some trails.

I have no idea either!

(If I don't like the look of something nowadays I walk anyway, I've served my hospital time and have nothing to prove).

@th yeah 4k's too much, 3.5 is probably too. I'm going to go ponder and ride my 9 year old Blur a bit more. I'll look at the Epic ta, somehow I don't see myself on Spesh but that's a bit of inverted snobbery partly. Cycleworks Leatherhead are doing a demo day in March @ Holmbury btw.

roverpig - Member

but would you really be comfortable riding down a steep technical section on something with 100mm of travel and a 71 degree HA? That's a genuine question. I have no idea, but would be nervous of getting a bike that would exclude me from some trails.

short forks can be great on really steep techy stuff, they don't dive as much when you use the brakes.

and we like slack head angles when we're riding down steep stuff as it pushes the front wheel out in front - which helps with the weight balance. More or less the same thing can be achieved with a longer 'front centre' (BB to front axle).

i may be wrong, but it seems to me that there's a trend towards longer front-centres on bikes these days - paired with shorter stems.

Thanks. That ties in with my experiences too for what it's worth. I've been playing with an old Five with a 150mm fork that I've set up to be very slack (66 degree HA) and a newer Trance with a 125mm fork and a 69 degree HA. What surprised me was that I felt more comfortable on the shorter steeper Trance than the longer slacker Five. Not what I was expecting at all, but it's basically for the reasons that you state. The longer travel on the Five means larger changes in geometry as the fork compresses. The Trance is also a large, where the Five is a medium. So, despite being steeper the distance from the BB to the front wheel is pretty much the same on both bikes.

Of course this doesn't mean that longer and slacker is wrong. For those that want to fly down without touching the brakes I'm sure the self centring effect of the slacker HA comes in very handy. But for those of us who nervously pick our way down steep sections it doesn't seem that longer and slacker actually provides any benefits at all. In fact, if anything, it makes things harder and that's before we even get to climbing back up again.

@roverpig if that all adds up (& it makes sense to me) I think you've just confirmed slack & big boing isn't what I want. (Thx).

No problem, although I'd wait to have it confirmed by somebody who knows what they are talking about before spending any money 🙂

dickie - Member
Went to a bike demo recently at Dalby & tried a Pace RC129, Santa Cruz Tallboy, Santa Cruz Superlight 29er, Santa Cruz TRc, Scott Genius 720 (650b) but the best & last bike I tested was a Scott Spark 920 (29er). It just felt right, light & capable.

I had a Spark on loan and agree that it's a really nice bike which fits well between the full-on xc race type FS and a slacker longer trail bike. When locked out it was super quick on the climbs and it felt great descending. My only bike is a Spesh Enduro so I expected it to be lacking on the descents but I really liked it. I had a Carbon version with alloy rear end. Spark 30 I think. Well worth a look.

Ahwiles/Roverpig, thanks for that. I helps to explain exactly how I felt. Matt thanks for the heads up on the demo day, I will check that out. I will also let you know when there is a not well known sale of stock near us - includes spesh stuff if you can if you can overcome the emotional resistance 😉

Annoying that my bike is at LBS at the moment. Glorious morning and I found some new cheeky bits of ST that I want to try out.

Ahwiles/Roverpig, thanks for that. I helps to explain exactly how I felt.

Yeah me too. I don't mind picking my way down stuff. I don't see the point of "let go the brakes and let the bike smooth it all out", where's the fun in that? Smooth it out enough and we may as well all go road riding.

(Beautiful day eh, what are the odds of heatwave March, hosepipe ban in April and then it'll start raining again!)

Entirely agree for round us re travel length. Based on faffing around with various bikes i reckon 69/70 degrees on a 29er is perfect for all the fun downy hill stuff round us.

Re that Canyon Nerve - no, they're not out until april and even then i don't think there is anywhere that you can demo a canyon which is the main problem with them.

Nice bike by the way Tom B. A big part of the reason why I haven't moved to a 29er yet is that my 26" Trance X2 is so capable.

[i]short forks can be great on really steep techy stuff, they don't dive as much when you use the brakes.[/i]

You'd really use a front brake on a techy descent?

If you're looking for more XC biased but to be used as a Trail bike. Both the Tallboy AL and Superfly 100 AL cover the XC bike that needs to double up as a trail bike very well. Superfly is a bit lighter than a Tallboy but no less capable IMO assuming you run the TB at 100mm. Superfly won't take a 120mm fork, TB will.

I've ridden Superfly and Gyro back to back for some time now. Gyro is very much the trail bike of the two but very surprising as an XC bike. The Superfly is very much the XC bike of the two but very surprising as a Trail bike.

The key difference is that I wouldn't enjoy attempting something like the FOD DH trails on the Superfly. The Gyro on the otherhand was a surprisingly good giggle and not particularly slow doing that stuff.

I'm considering an XC race capable full suss 29er too and I'm trying to understand if I need slack geo and 120mm travel rather than traditional and 100mm. I haven't bought a bike since 2004 and things really seem to have changed!

What gets me is that I rode my Stumpy FSR 100mm with 70.5 HA downhill in Morzine for 2 weeks no problem, and I'm not some extraordinary talent, so what are people riding in the UK that requires slacker, longer travel trail bikes?

Gary looking for an FS I think, if you're a Trek guy did you try Rumblefish?

Yeah the Gyro is in the mix.

Specialized Camber 29er. Buy one, wear out all the cheapo bits and replace with uk spec stuff hope/shimano/maxxis etc and ride til you pop. ace bike, tried nearly all on demo days last year, specialized was the one i put my money on

mattjg: no not ridden a Rumblefish but very interested in getting on one at some point.

nickc - Member

You'd really use a front brake on a techy descent?

er, yes, if i needed to - why wouldn't i?

anyway, simply riding down a steep descent will move your weight forward, and can/will cause a bit of fork-dive, and short forks dive less than long forks.

i'm not saying that short forks are better than long forks for steep/techy descents, i'm just suggesting that they're not necessarily worse.

I nearly went down the carbon Tallboy route after demo'ing an Alu one at Afan but stopped myself when I saw the Trek Rumblefish Pro - great spec and a hell of a lot cheaper. It's a really nice 'trail' FS & does all I want it to very well. It could do with going on a bit of a diet tho (owners, bikes...). If you're looking for a bargain take a look at [url= http://www.trekdemosale.co.uk/ ]this site[/url]

Trek are really good at uglying-up potentially nice looking bikes.

awhiles,

because front brake on techy descent will sometimes pitch you over the front, and will compress your forks, whereas back brake will never do that...the worst that will happen is you fall over sideways, or if you're in the right place you'll just sit on your rear wheel.

[i]anyway, simply riding down a steep descent will move your weight forward [/i]

err move your weight back?

If it's steep and loose enough the rear brake alone won't do you much good though. I'd be terrified to ride down the "gnarliest" (by my humble standards) stuff around here without the use of the front brake. It's extremely probable that my braking, and overall technique, is shite, though.

[i]If it's steep and loose enough the rear brake alone won't do you much good though[/i]

it will slow you down enough to bail if you have to. but really if your going into steep techy stuff fast enough* that you [u]have[/u] to use your front brake, then you might want to re-asses what your're doing.

*speeds may vary depending on levels of lunacy... 😆

nickc - Member

awhiles,

because front brake on techy descent will sometimes pitch you over the front, and will

this has never happened to me.

maybe my forks are too short?

Had an m109s demo over the weekend, very impressed.
Yes it does feel heavy when you give it the heft test but largely irrelevant IMO. Yes for XC racing you'll be carrying some weight but......
I'm about 14 stone all in and was very impressed at how stiff the frame, forks, wheels and the interfaces between were. Very fun to ride in a popping off every kerb on the way to the trail way. The question for me now is how much of the feel is in the wheels

My Salsa feels quite heavy during the heft test, but really does ride quite light, may sound like a loada bull but it's true.

...the long vs. short fork thing...I think that it is more to do with forks without low speed compression damping Vs. forks with low speed compression damping 😉

The question for me now is how much of the feel is in the wheels

Potentially quite a lot. Rotational mass matters on a 29er.

Thx for the review. Would you buy one?

If I bought one I'd want a dropper on it so that's another pound.

My Trance above weighs over 33lbs with the dropper post fitted!! New wheels and a Revelation fork should get it close to 30lbs.

I'd say the wheels are more important than ever on a 29er. Quite a lot of sub 2kg, £250 ish wheelsets are dreadful for just being wobbly, flexy messes. The bigger wheels have more room to be compromised than 26ers and it's harder to get a good/cheap wheel…

The Pro IIs/TN319s that came on the Gyro are about 2.1kg but they're plenty stout and I'd prefer that and suck it up a bit in terms of the weight than have a soft wheelset.

The American Classic All Mountains I've since put on at 1750g are lighter than many 'xc' wheels, not insanely expensive (compared to carbon and other top end wheels in this day and age), have wonderfully wide rim and are very stiff too. Landing sideways, dropping to flat, they're still as straight as can be.

If I was speccing a new 29er build, I'd choose my wheels before I'd even chosen the frame I reckon.

Second the comment on wheels...esp if on an am/trail 29er. I have ridden a range of 29ers now inc. xc hardtail, more trail hardtail, epic and am full suspension...wobbly wheels (rear) after fun rides on the faster and more able in rough/jump terrain bikes...my conclusion is that to run a bike like this and ride it how you want/to the capability of the bike then good strong (but light(ish)) wheels are required and this means £expensive. 😕

Anyone able to give a meaningful opinion on the Whyte wheels that come on the M109S?

I guess it makes sense that wheels are pretty important on a 29er. After all, what we are talking about is a new wheel size. What isn't clear, at least to me yet, is whether 29ers make sense as a full suss trail bike, but if they do they key will be getting the wheels right.

So, what is a good choice wheelset for a full suss Trail 29er? Personally I'd like something as light and as strong as my 26" Hope Hoops with Flow EX rims and tubeless Nobby Nic 2.35" tyres. But is that even possible in a 29er and what would it cost?

American Classic All Mountains, £499, 1750g – They've survived FOD DH on the Gyro no sweat without mincing, and I've generally tried to not be precious with them, with a set of Hans Dampfs on, plenty wide enough rims.

Had the 26ers too, can't fault them, even stingy-radar gave them 4.5 stars: http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/components/wheel-sets/product/review-american-classic-all-mountain-wheelset-12-46217

I gave the 26ers 5 stars: http://www.cyclistno1.co.uk/gear/components/wheels/american-classic-all-mountain-26-tubeless.htm

Look good Gary, but surely an Orange has to have Hope Hoops. Or are you more interested in function than form or something 🙂

Incredible to think that we are talking (generally) about spending £2k on a bike (give or take a grand) and still taking about needing better wheels. Its an insane world!! 😉

Self building is always going to better value if you can manage it though.

Well the rims aren't Hope on Hope Hoops, so as nice as it would be to retain the Hope hubs, I'm more interested in the rims.

@th yes - and that can be another 50% on top of the purchase price

A bit of a thread revival, but back to the OP's questions I had a 109s on demo last week and took it to CYB on the Beast.

It's not light - we weighed it at about 28.5 lbs (with XTR pedals) but even being a bit of a weight weenie I can't say I noticed the weight at all when riding.

The (carbon) wheels were a revelation. They are incredibly stiff, track like they're on rails and don't really deflect in a "side" impact. I was worried about them given the cost, but I didn't really hold back at all. I noticed there were a couple of marks on the lacquer but they held up very well.

The riding position is great, (M, 5'10") and you can shift your weight around when needed. With the CTD shocks though, despite my scepticism I did what the shop suggested and left it in descend all day bar a couple of road sections. NO discernable pedal bob when climbing seated, and only a little out of the saddle. It's such a comfortable bike.

Gearing seemed high (er), noting the cadence of others compared to me as we were riding along in bottom gear, but perfectly manageable.

Climbing was interesting. Generally excellent, with good traction (even from the undernourished looking Ikons). I stopped on one rocky uphill section which was quite steep but then struggled to get the bike moving again. By the time I was clipping in the wheels just stopped rotating. Something to do with the wheelsize maybe as the section didn't look like it should have given me as many problems as it did.

Where the bike excelled was descending. For a 100mm bike it's very capable. It just seemed to hold and gain speed really easily. The Icon tyres didn't seem to like wet rock however. I'm no downhiller but some of the Strava section times were pretty respectable. At no point did I wish I had more travel, or feel underbiked.

The one thing I struggled with were low speed corners. The bike was slow to turn in and I kept having to put my foot down (and fall off).

Would I buy it? It's the only 29er I've ridden and was very impressed.
Slow speed cornering (I put that down to my lack of experience) and weight (though that's a mental thing) are the only two things I could hold against it. Oh, and the colour scheme, which I really don't like (the standard 109 looks much nicer).

Given that , the shop still has my 2k deposit so I guess I'm still thinking about it 🙂