[Closed] Froome - Are you feeling the love?

Glutton - yup. Arguably Wiggins is less British than Froome. Of course there's then the debate about whether the Isle of Man is part of Britain - though under the Treaty of Perth (1266) it became part of Scotland (bit like Malta) so b that reckoning the Scots have two riders of not TdFing - Cav and DMillar.

Whenever I think of Froome I see this guy from some reason.

[img] [/img]

No idea why. He rides much less like a robot than wiggins - maybe it's the lack of emotion.

After some of his performances in the last few days we should have froome mania in the uk at the moment. But we don't which says something must be wrong with the way he is coming across. We have watched Wiggins grow up through his Olympic feats and, using Boardman as a gauge, marvelled at his change from specialist in an event lasting a few minutes to a GC winner. To the general public Froome is a nobody in comparison. To the public he also comes from the murky world of road cyclists (whilst Wiggins was a nice honest trackie) so also probably a drugs cheat.

These arguments about what it is or what qualifies someone to be British are just laughable. My brothers 7 yr old son has never lived in the UK as my brother has always worked abroad all his life. Does that mean he's not British or doesn't deserve his British passport? Us Brits went out and created all these colonies and outposts and those who went out to live there never expected to lose their heritage and nationality or their right to come back. I think you'll find if you go far enough back we're all of African descent anyway.

If you don't like Froome, you'll have to think up another excuse. To me, he seems like a pretty boring character, but then he can ride the Tour De France and I can't, so that's clearly what it takes. I chose to socialise with my mates down the pub, he chose to go out on his bike and pound out the miles. Fair play to the guy. This is a fantastic era for British cycling, with what looks like back to back British wins. Long may it continue.

No love for Geraint Thomas? Still going with a broken hip - nuff said.

created

Brought up British? In south Africa? How does that work? What percentage of his time on earth has he actually spent in Britain? Bradley Wiggins only has to open his mouth for you to know that he's British.

A Belgian born, half-Australian Brit.

Anyway, Froome has never really waved the flag for being British and doesn't try to appeal to nationalism. All I think I see from Froome is a desire to win bike races and be seen as one of the best on a bike.

He does, and he is. His Britishness or any lack thereof is irrelevant for me. I'd rather have someone winning with panache than all the "personality" in the world

I'm also a fan of Froome's gracious attitude especially when being interviewed.
Not a fan of Bradley Wiggins. I suspect he's finito. What a year to have had though.

Incidentally, what about David Millar. Scottish? He was born in England and spent five minutes in Scotland. He only got caught because someone stuck him in.

I like Froome he's the real deal, although its early bells to be saying he's won the tour, no?

I'm a Froome fan, but I prefer Wiggins. Probably partly to do with Wiggo's personality, but also because I've followed him for a lot longer - I remember him winning the junior worlds a long time ago, maybe it comes down to how long you've followed top level bike racing for? Froome is certainly more exciting to watch, but that's not all there is to supporting somebody.

As for Wiggins not winning without Froome - well maybe, but he was still clearly superior to the other riders on some of the climbs last year. You still have to have the legs to ride like he did.

re. nationalities - you either accept what their passport says, or what they say they are/feel. Has anyone ever asked Froome?

Accent determines nationality IMO. I know that might not be that rational but that's how it seems to me.

Can't say I've ever really warmed to Kevin Peterson or Jonathon Trott either.

I don't normally like to be too nationalistic but with sport that kind of seems to be most of the point. 🙂

Weren't sir brad born in Belgium?

aracer, Most British sports fans probably didn't really know who Wiggins was 2 years ago.. doubt it's all that different here

Weren't sir brad born in Belgium?

Yes as has already been mentioned in this thread, but he has a British accent. And he lives in Lancashire not Monaco.

Plus Froome's manager/fiancée seems an utter tool, and isn't she mates with drug cheat Vinokourov?

To the public he also comes from the murky world of road cyclists (whilst Wiggins was a nice honest trackie) so also probably a drugs cheat.

errr.. I think you are crediting 'the public' with far more of an interest in bicycle racing than is actually the case

Surely to the public he's 'some African bloke in that French bike race, bring back Wiggo, he's mates with Paul Weller'

and to the public, surely the difference between road cyclists and track cyclists is err... 'trackie's do it inside don't they..? unless the track is outside maybe..? I dunno, I bet none of 'em pay bloody road tax though.. when's the football on..? this crap has been on for days..'

How can you say Froome is boring? What does Wiggo give out that he doesn't? Wiggo is famous for being a party animal after big events, he admits pretty much becoming an alcholic after Beijing!
Surely it's also irrelevant what percentage of time they've spent in the UK etc, someone has written the rules and they are there. Wasn't Wiggo born in belgium or somewhere similar?

Froome does look like a praying mantis pushing a shopping trolley with a mobile phone to his ear (that's come from crashtestmonkey!) but this Tour is one of THE most exciting tours sinceI started watching in 1993. Last year was just dreadfully dreadfully boring, Wiggo didn't make one attack, he had a super strong team who rode everyone else into the ground. This year Froome has attacked and won 2 stages, he's tried to chase breaks down (flat stage yesterday) and he's been left on a limbo on his own when Movistar kept attacking him but no he's still in the yellow jersey.

Wiggo is a has-been of which his tour will become completely forgotten (to a point)whereas people will remember the following year for Froom'es epics at Ventoux and overall victory. Just my 2p's worth!

He is riding very well in one of the most demanding sporting events in the world, which also has some of the most complex strategic and tactical plays going. He has a great team built on a sound ethos and a desire to win clean. I give him a lot of respect for that, he chose to represent GB and he has the right to.

Lat year Wiggins and Sky won the tour in front of them, this year is a different opposition some of who were with Sky last year. With the stages remaining there is still plenty of interest, anyone can loose a serious amount of time here at any stage. There will be a couple of surprises before Paris.

2 great weeks of racing capped off with an incredible finish last night which kept me up till after 1am wondering how it was going to unfold.

A small point to the separatists up north, you haven't had your referendum yet, they are still British.

Chris' home country still love him http://www.deccanherald.com/content/344618/kenya-await-froome-success.html

No idea why. He rides much less like a robot than wiggins - maybe it's the lack of emotion.

What emotion do you want to see. If anything I think we've seen more passion where it counts (on the bike) from Froome in yesterday's stage than we saw all of last year's tour from Wiggins.

How long before we see a genuinely mixed race cyclist prodigy in the style of Tiger Woods or Lewis Hamilton?

It seems like Team Sky also need to pump it up on the PR side for Froome as unlike Wiggo he doesn't seem to have much of a public persona. In fact he doesn't seem to have much of a personality to many cycling fans. Sky have access to all media platforms and it would not be difficult for them to get some positive stuff out there as long as they ban the soon to be Mrs Froome from Twitter first 😉

globalti - Member
How long before we see a genuinely mixed race cyclist prodigy in the style of Tiger Woods or Lewis Hamilton?

POSTED 31 SECONDS AGO # REPORT-POST

Wtf?.

Back on point, it must be a nightmarefor the other GC contenders, realising that froome has them in the mountains AND the time trial!. How the hell do you beat him? Barring crash or injury obviously.

it must be a nightmarefor the other GC contenders, realising that froome has them in the mountains AND the time trial!. How the hell do you beat him?

This.

Indurain was able to decimate them in the TTs and then hang on with the peleton in the mountains....like Wiggins really....but these riders come unstuck in tours with a serious amount of climbing and shorter TTs.

Froome can take minutes out of them in the mountains and do it the next day in a TT....that must be soul destroying to be up against.
Barring misfortune he will win...because he is the best and most complete rider out there at the moment.

He will need his team however, on the supposed flat and boring stages rival teams can and will collude to make break after break that the remaining Sky riders will have to marshall....this is about the only hope for the other GC contenders....grind the Sky team down on the flats so they have nothing left for the mountains....

....only flaw in that plan is Sky already seem wise to it with Porte looking like he had an off day on the flat stage the other day following his first mountain epic but i think in reality he was recovering and saving himself for the Ventoux, it was a calculated risk by Sky that they would lose less on that stage by letting a break go than they would gain in the mountains with an energised Porte and Froome attacking again.

Its great TV anyway.

Fwiw, I really like Thomas, despite him being welsh. Classy rider and one the general public will here more about after they forget about the Olympics.

I wonder if froome has the stamina to crack all 3 grand tours.

Big fan of Geraint - really looking forward to seeing what he can do next year. I'm a little worried that Sky don't know what to do with him, a bit like EBH (who I also really like).

He will need his team however, on the supposed flat and boring stages rival teams can and will collude to make break after break that the remaining Sky riders will have to marshall

Movistar - Saxo - Belkin will all start to look to get their rider on the podium so I'd imagine there won't be much chance of them teaming up if there's a chance it launches an opponent ahead of them

Froome could have probably chosen to have one of a few flags on his jersey next to his name, he's chosen to have the British one. Clearly proud of his heritage, and also proud of his Kenyan upbrining and has a love of Africa. Seems more British than most to me (in a Colonial sort of way.)

I've just watched the stage (busy yesterday)

Froomey, dear God!!

Bloody brilliant.

I do like CF much more now he's had a few more relaxed words in interviews. I like hearing riders talk like normal people do after a knackering ride than just rolling out platitudes. Someone said to him "you made that loom easy" and he replied "well I'm glad in LOOKED easy!"

Accent determines nationality IMO. I know that might not be that rational but that's how it seems to me.

So my cousin who was born in London, moved to Durban when she was 4 then returned to London 15 years later isn't British because she has a South African twang to her accent?

FWIW, I like Froome & the way he rides. Yesterday's display was just epic seeing as very few ever take it to the entire peleton on climbs like that. Whether his 'poker face' is deliberate or not, his main rivals are never really sure how he's feeling or what's left in the tank & that helps him hugely. Watching others inject a bit of pace on a stage only to see him match it and, as often as not, increase it further himself must be soul destroying.

It's good just seeing a GC contender winning stages too.

that was an epic ride of supreme effort and aggresion that needs to be marked up-- he showed again that he is the strongest rider on the tour--just got to hope no ill luck befalls him .....

Who cares whether you 'like' Froome or not. This isn't Facebook in a hairdressers.

Oooh look he's wearing the wrong shoes, I knew there was something wrong with him...

When Saxo were Team time trialling on stage 13 I wrote this.

tinsy - Member
OK, dont panick, 9k to go, Froome will lose time but not yellow, mountians to come, he is the strongest.

Posted 2 days ago #

Not sure why we cant support both Wiggins and Froome. Both very good riders although different. Froome is probably the stronger of the two though and I can understand why he was picked over Wiggins for the Tour. I am not too sure what the difference between SKY last year and this year is - perhaps the crashes and injuries and the fact that they had riders like Uran at the Giro and so have split their strength just a little this year.

But overall, he is very impressive and although he does not have the immediate charisma of Wiggins, is still likable. I guess though that to pass the immigration control section of STW, he should really move to Smethwick or Burnley for a while.

Froomes effort yesterday was frankly aweasome but he's as charasmatic as a potato. Slagging off your team leader as he did in last years TdF would mark him down in my eyes, too.

Better climber than Wiggo - Yes
Better TT rider than Wiggo - No (although a lot closer this year than last)
Better MTBer than wiggo - yes
Better track cyclist than wiggo - no

Basically he's the best cyclist on the scene right now but he lacks the star quality of wiggo and from a 'making cycling popular' point of view is the lesser for it.

I've just watched the stage (busy yesterday)

Froomey, dear God!!

Bloody brilliant.

Slagging off your team leader as he did in last years TdF would mark him down in my eyes, too.

Are you sure you're not confusing him with his missus? He was very diplomatic in all interviews I heard or read, and very much toed the Sky party line, despite a lot of goading by journalists desperate to stir things up. His refusal to be drawn on it actually marked him up in my book.

His missus was tweeting, or whatever is that people do but i seem to remember him stating (or intimating, or refusing to deny or something) on camera that he could have won at least one stage (the one where he admittedly dragged wiggo up the climb to finish in the town) by a big enough margin to take the GC. (that said I can't be ar5ed doing the research to prove me right, or otherwise). Anyhoo it was certainly no secret that he was less than chuffed.

or intimating, or refusing to deny or something

Given the number of journalists harassing him about it and desperate for a story, he did ok. He was obviously disappointed at missing out on some stage wins (and arguably the tour win) but was never drawn on it and stuck to the "I'm here to do a job for the team" line. I'm not sure Wiggins would have been as diplomatic had it been the other way around!

I think the reason that the British public took Wiggo to their hearts over Froome is the fact that we tend to like our heroes flawed. Wiggins always seems to be struggling to overcome inner demons which obviously have spilled over on a number of occasions.

Froome is much more composed at all times which although appreciated by a lot a people, especially cycling fans, doesn't endear him to the public at large.

Witness also Cavs persona as being very similar to Wiggos and the fact that both of them have won the BBC SPOTY. I can't see Froome winning that especially as another flawed hero has now slain his Wimbledon dragon.

Most British sports fans probably didn't really know who Wiggins was 2 years ago

3 Olympic gold medals and nominated for SPOTY 2008? No, I'm sure you're right.

Wiggo definitely a household name after Beijing. Was probably second only to Hoy if the general public had to name a (current) British cyclist, even pre-Tour win.

Being increasingly asked by non-cycling friends about Froome though.

With regards to nationality, I think this whole "where were they born", "where were their parents born" thing is irrelevant.

To me, Wiggins, Millar and Cavendish are British cyclists because that’s where they started out from.

Millar started competative cycling when he was living with his mum in Maidenhead. He was in the High Wycombe CC and represented BC West Thames as a junior. Wiggins was with the Archer RC (a now defunct? West London club) and did a lot of his early racing at Herne Hill or on the Hayes bypass. I still ride with people who used to ride with, coach or manage them when they were kids.

As a cyclist I see them as riders who have come up through the local scene. They used to ride the same races any of us could ride, visit the same café/pub stops and moan about the traffic on British roads. It just that through talent and hard work they’ve reached the top of their sport.

When I started follwing cycling, sprints were won by exotic Italians with expensive hairstyles. Tours were won by Americans who used funny bar extensions. I still find it hard to believe they are now dominated by the type of guy you might meet on a club run from Uxbridge to Reading.

A guy who did all his early cycling in Africa and never posted a good time on the H25/12 just doesn’t feel the same.

More importantly, I can't find a single picture of Froome topless anywhere on the internet. Wtf?

Realman -

Let's hope it stays that way

I can't see Froome winning that especially as another flawed hero has now slain his Wimbledon dragon.

I think you are right here - I can't believe I'm saying this but I think as a personality I prefer Murray to Froome. I wonder how much of that is because he has very publicly failed (if you can call losing finals of a grand slam failing!)and risen again or because I have watched him grow up into the finished article he is now.

Maybe it is just the fake Brit thing and I'm more jingoistic than I thought - he does fall into the same camp as Pieterson, Hick, Budd, Rusedski etc. British cycling must be in a bit of a quandary - Froome is clearly a cycling superstar, possibly with the credentials to usurp Simpson,Millar (Robert),Boardman,Hoy,Pendleton,Cavendish & Wiggins. But he will never be a superstar off the bike and does not have a potential ambassador persona. He is not the face to launch a million mamils.

Let's hope it stays that way

How do you expect us to make up our minds without the proper evidence? Dear god.

To me, Wiggins, Millar and Cavendish are British cyclists because that’s where they started out from.

Millar started competative cycling when he was living with his mum in Maidenhead. He was in the High Wycombe CC and represented BC West Thames as a junior. Wiggins was with the Archer RC (a now defunct? West London club) and did a lot of his early racing at Herne Hill or on the Hayes bypass. I still ride with people who used to ride with, coach or manage them when they were kids.

As a cyclist I see them as riders who have come up through the local scene. They used to ride the same races any of us could ride, visit the same café/pub stops and moan about the traffic on British roads. It just that through talent and hard work they’ve reached the top of their sport.

When I started follwing cycling, sprints were won by exotic Italians with expensive hairstyles. Tours were won by Americans who used funny bar extensions. I still find it hard to believe they are now dominated by the type of guy you might meet on a club run from Uxbridge to Reading.

A guy who did all his early cycling in Africa and never posted a good time on the H25/12 just doesn’t feel the same.

Nicely put - agree completely. God, I am actually jingoistic! Must go out and buy a Daily Mail!

It'd be like the contents of a raw fish finger bent around a coat hanger

His missus was tweeting, or whatever is that people do but i seem to remember him stating (or intimating, or refusing to deny or something) on camera that he could have won at least one stage (the one where he admittedly dragged wiggo up the climb to finish in the town) by a big enough margin to take the GC. (that said I can't be ar5ed doing the research to prove me right, or otherwise). Anyhoo it was certainly no secret that he was less than chuffed.

I'm pretty sure anyone would have been a bit narked to not be able to win things they could, but that's professional cycling. However, the whole twitter-missus thing kicked off when Wiggins' wife thanked the entire sky train apart from Froome on Twitter. Both of their other halves should either keep it on the party line or keep out of it.

As an aside, I'm unsure why "personality" has to equate to "is a bit of a gobshite/PR liability".

Much prefer Froome's unassuming air to Wiggins' arrogance. He's quite dry as well. Was good to see Wiggins win le tour but I don't really support cyclists by nationality, just by who's interesting to watch. Froome definitely wins that one.

How long before we see a genuinely mixed race cyclist prodigy in the style of Tiger Woods or Lewis Hamilton?

Movistar - Saxo - Belkin will all start to look to get their rider on the podium so I'd imagine there won't be much chance of them teaming up if there's a chance it launches an opponent ahead of them

Topless froome shudders

I'm saving judgement till I see, dude might be so ripped he can clean his cycling clothing with his abs..

Altaz.

I'll take your word for it on what started the twitter spat

I guess it cos we only really see these people through the lens of them media

e.g.
Steven Gerrard: erm...likeermm done good, boys worked hard, like, ermm, gaffer, ermm result erm*

Balotelli: Car crash, fist fight, why me, sulkio, super models,*

They've got a few seconds of exposure and they can either give the party line or voice an opinion - Who knows what they're really like but I know which one makes for better telly.

*taken verbatim from two recent interviews in leading publications

At the end of the day for me he's a Kenyan (wouldn't it have been better for him to be the first Kenyan to win the TDF?) but he's a brilliant, aggressive rider so get's my full appreciation.

Warming to Froome a little, and maybe that's cos without Brad around he has actually been able to remotely eke a smile out once or twice. He is, without doubt, the most exceptional talent on a bike out there at the moment by a good margin, which considering he makes supposedly natural climbers like Quintana and Contador look positively butch, is ridiculous! Wiggins looks anorexic when at his peak, Froome looks like he's bulimic as well!

Thing is though (and I'd say Dave Brailsford is probably happier for this), Froome just isn't the character that Wiggins is off the bike. Everyone would love to go for a pint with Wiggo, and he's got that kind of mad look in his eye that says "one way or another, this is going to be memorable". He'd probably get you into a fight, or locked up or something, but you'd certainly have stories to tell your grand kids! Froome isn't even the kind of guy that would be tapping his watch saying "it's 10pm, I'd better go home, I've got an early start in the morning", he's the kind of guy you'd not even bother asking out for a pint anyway cos you know he'd never show up!

The comment about Wiggins being flawed earlier is spot on, and that's why he's popular. Froome is just too good! He's already dominating like only a certain Texan has in recent years, and look how popular he was/isn't...

I do love Froome's style on the bike though, totally unnatural and brings hope to everyone else that its all about effort and hard graft rather than a natural ability. His ability to time his breaks to perfection and with such pace to distance his rivals are incredible too. Definitely way more interesting to watch than Wiggo...

I wonder if froome has the stamina to crack all 3 grand tours

He couldn't even do two last year so it looks unlikely. Especially with the current trend in Italy and Spain to make the route "a bit tricky".

And all this Froome would beat Wiggins talk is a bit premature. He is certainly the best climber now but that doesn't guarantee he would have won last year. He still may come unstuck this.

Wiggins style, that was evident up to Peyragudes last year, was to do the minimum in the mountains to maintain his lead, to ride to the plan. Froome wanted to go for glory and chase down Valverde but to Wiggins this was an unnecessary risk and he was much more confident he could take minutes in the TT. He also didn't want to burn out all his domestiques for the flat stages to come.

Compare this to Froome up to Ax 3 Domains who went for the glory, dragged Porte with him who obviously went deep into the red and then the next day he and the whole team were in serious dificulty. Who knows what effect the glory hunting on Ventoux will have cost him.

It would be a different race with Wiggins in it but history shows it is no less effective a way to win races.

That said I am right behind Froome this year.

imo froome at 'race weight' looks a lot less like a famine victim waiting to die than wiggins does

and I'd choose Monaco over Lancashire any day of the week

I bet you can't det a decent black pudding in monaco

mboy - Member
Froome just isn't the character that Wiggins is off the bike

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Compare this to Froome up to Ax 3 Domains who went for the glory, dragged Porte with him who obviously went deep into the red and then the next day he and the whole team were in serious dificulty. Who knows what effect the glory hunting on Ventoux will have cost him.

Rest day today, so no worries.

As for the insinuations of drugs by some people, he could clearly out climb last years winner, it's not like he's done a Bjarn Riess and come from a chubby mid pack to winning in 6 months.

Froome is sheer class- both performance-wise and image-wise.

An alien-praying-mantis on the bike, what's cooler than that?

he probably prefers a nice boerewors anyway

I'm saving judgement till I see, dude might be so ripped he can clean his cycling clothing with his abs..

RealMan saves a rather dire thread 🙂

Overall, yeah, I'm finding that I'm liking Froome in this tour. I like the bold attitude of him hitting the hills and asking the others "what have you got then?"

The attacks he did yesterday were really quite impressive.

I'm liking Froome.

I was suspicious, but his team have suffered like US Postal never did,and he's been picking his efforts very carefully. (He didn't chase the echelon for example)

So, I'm just enjoying it for what it is, a guy attacking the other favorites, and putting them to the sword, great to watch! I've watched the Ventoux a few times now, it was incredible riding! (that required a bit of oxygen after the finish line)

Also i like the guy off the bike, considered in his answers, modest, quiet, but funny too.

Good on him, hope he can finish it off now

At the end of the day for me he's a Kenyan (wouldn't it have been better for him to be the first Kenyan to win the TDF?) but he's a brilliant, aggressive rider so get's my full appreciation.

A right bunch of Daily Mail readers on here today 🙄

@the generalist: because this is a harder tour and all the favourites are here

Anyway, I admire Froome in the same way I admired Cadel Evans in 2011. But given that he is about as British as Evans is Welsh, there's no particular reason to support him on the basis of nationality.

blah blah blah

i support riders on their merits/attitude and lack of arrogance, nationality is as relevant as shoe size......

I'm thinking, other than the TT, we won't see Froome on the attack until the last mountain stage next week.

Why? Because they have attacked only twice, both times on mountain top finishes, and both times when there was a chance for a breather afterwards (ok last week was a gamble, but a long downhill finish was likely to keep the GCs together, and so it turned out).

I suspect they will police rather than control the front of the peleton, just be there in case there's another Saxo style breakout, but let breakaways go, not force the pace too much, try to grab a few TT seconds.

And then with nothing to lose, look to blow the Annecy stage out of the water.

no no no.. ransos, you've got that all wrong, hang onto even the slightest thread of Englishness.. you can always hand him back if he "Zola Budd's"

But given that he is about as British as Evans is Welsh, there's no particular reason to support him on the basis of nationality.

He's got British parents right? Sounds British to me.

he probably prefers a nice boerewors anyway

You do know that South Africa is thousands of miles and half a continent away from Kenya don't you?

He's got British parents right? Sounds British to me.

Well no, but if it helps you.

It's not something that bothers me particularly, but Millar and Wiggins were both shaped by a British upbringing, something you can't say about Froome. In a way, I think it's a shame he's not riding as a Kenyan.

His father and grandfather are British, he has always carried a British passport. He is British, if that matters to you. Personally, I just like him as a rider. Met him last year at the tour. Very unassuming.

His father and grandfather are British, he has always carried a British passport. He is British, if that matters to you. Personally, I just like him as a rider. Met him last year at the tour. Very unassuming.

I have Canadian friends born of British parents and with dual passports. They consider themselves 100% Canadian.

As I say, nationality is surely shaped far more by your upbringing than where you or your parents happen to be born. Froome isn't British, but that's no reason to not greatly admire his achievements.

if he goes on to win this years tour it will be a much bigger achievement than what Wiggins did last year.
why's that then?
much harder route and the support team is not as strong. i.e. he doesnt have a rider better than him to hide behind.

Richie Porte.

And it's hard every year, less climbing just means faster. Hardest years are when the tour embraces the cobbles!

I have Canadian friends born of British parents and with dual passports. They consider themselves 100% Canadian.

That's not the rule though. Plenty of people born abroad who consider themselves the nationality of their parents.

Sports people's nationality should be determined by where they choose to pay tax, rather than where they were born.