[Closed] Frame Tolerance, Is This Acceptable?

If there's no paint stopping the wheel seating properly in the dropout send the pic to sellers and ask them to organise collection.

Sorry about posting on the bike forum, I promise not to do it too often.

I wouldn't be happy with that. Does it make the brake rub? Suppose it could be the dropouts

I'd return it under warranty, no question.

The the top tube looks slightly out where it joins the seat tube, this has had a knock on effect on the non drive side seat stay which looks (by eye) that its been welded on lower that the drive side, and this has made the dropout lower on the none drive side, i think this is what's causing it.

Just don't want the manufacturer to turn round and say it's within tolerance.

Thanks for the replies everyone, its the first time ive had a a bike by this manufacture and it's disappointing. Will send it back and get another one, hopefully it'll be better!
Will post here when it arrives.

Just don't want the manufacturer to turn round and say it's within tolerance.

Surely it doesn't matter what they say? It mail order you can return it under the distance selling regs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theoneshow/consumer/2009/08/27/get_your_refund_distance_selli.html

Just don't want the manufacturer to turn round and say it's within tolerance.

A new SS 29er arrived today [b]mail order[/b]

Distance selling regs. 🙂

yup, you can send it back for a refund for no better reason than you just like sending parcels, or it's not quite your favourite shade of white, whatever.

(i'd send it back, and even i can make a frame that's straighter than that)

Im sure it'll get it sorted think the dealer has a 28 day return policy too.

What do we reckon - Cannondale?

When I saw a thread about wonky frames, I assumed it'd be an Intense... But looking at the pics, it's far too straight for that.

What do we reckon - Cannondale?

certainly looks like it

A good chance it's something Flash, Druidh. They'll probably claim it's wear and tear and the poor retailer will have a miserable time sorting it out.

Yeah Cannondale SS 29er, thinking about i got a Canyon 29er in summer 'which has a thru axle drop out, if that had a come this wonky i think id have trouble getting the axle in without cross threading it.
Will send it back a hope the next comes one comes without the wonkyness!
Will update the thread when the new one arrives.

My Giant XTC was out about that much and I got it replaced under warranty. Couldn't honestly say that it really made an appreciable difference, but it bugged me- if it's new and it's not right why put up with it?

And I wouldn't let it put you off Cannondale (or whoever), at least until they've had a chance to make it right- all brands will have the odd duff one.

I bought a Corratec from CRC which rode in circles. CRC sent someone to pick up the bike and promptly refunded so I thought it worth trying again for the same bike. The price had gone up but CRC honoured the original price, and the replacement rides straight.

When you look from the front of the bike the wheel is offset to the seat tube, dont know how much it would effect the ride, but im not going to ride it anyway obvouisly, I certainly wont right them off, just hope its sorted out and the new one comes strait.

Perhaps it's meant to be wonky? I have an old cannondale ht that is not symmetrical at the back end but that's how it's meant to be.

Asymmetrical chainstays are usually made for drivetrain clearance. Often the drive side chainstay is lower and/or curved, and may attach to the bottom bracket in a different manner or location than the other chainstay.

It still puts the tire/wheel on the bike centerline, though. The OP's frame clearly does not.

Those are seat stays anyway - almost never asymmetrical.

What causes that is getting the seat stay length a bit wrong.

Remove the rear wheel QR from the rear hub and have a good look to make sure the rear wheel is fully into the rear dropouts, right to the top.

On an Turner frame (new) there was an overspray on the inside of one dropout that did this to me.

O/T ahwiles Ive emailed you. Im in Ladybower tomorrow am if good

What she said a post further up if its not sat square in the dropout it will cock over
To one side, is the wheel vertical

Hope hub?

Aren't frames welded together from batches of identical tubes in a jig ?
How do they end up making one different to the others ?

Hope hub?

laughing.

yes. they are always a bit on the big side. Like CK headsets are on the small side.

Hope hubs have a 10mm axle. Paint is occasionally thicker than it should be. A couple of seconds with a file and every one is a winner.

Aren't frames welded together from batches of identical tubes in a jig ?
How do they end up making one different to the others ?

Possibly, by not getting one dropout fully home in the jig's dummy axle. That is if it's not just paint in the dropout.

In what universe is 5mm an acceptable deviation from centreline? I very much doubt the paint is that thick - send it back.

It wouldn't be 5mm of paint, less than 1mm at the spindle would tip the wheel 5mm at the rim

can we get a picture of the axle with the ruler. that will show if it's the frame or the wheel/hub or not!

If you send it back under distance selling regs you'll have to pay the cost of sending it back.

If you send it back warranty (which it clearly is!) then the company should re-imburse your return postage costs or collect the item.

Wrap a piece of string from the outside of one dropout, round the headtube and back to the outside of the opposing dropout. Measure the distace from the string to the centre of the seattube on each side. If it's not the same then it's the frame, if it's the same look for other possibilities.

That's for measuring chainstay errors or rear triangle offset - not vertical offset like in this case. The way I do it (apart from the method the OP used) is to put a tyreless wheel in and eyeball the rim against the seat tube.

how the wheel rim meaure up against chainstays? seattube?

if this is a dropout issue(axle not horizontal across both dropouts) then on a small issue (like paint etc) at the dropout will lead to a big error at the wheel rim (vertical - setastays, for and aft - chainstays)

my caad8 road bike has a slighly larger lefthand drop hole to always have to make sure axle is right place before tighthening the QR or it is out at the chainstays

Its still out at the chainstays and off at the seatube im going to double check it now, but i think the rear triangle has just been welded wonky, ie seat stay junction weld is lower on the seat tube, effecting the er... drop of the dropout. I dont mind stuff being out by a bit, but this is noticeable by eye from the front of the bike.

Cheer for the comments and help everyone! 🙂

laughing.

yes. they are always a bit on the big side.

Welleither you're being sarcastic, or you're taking the piss. I can't quite decide. Every time I had to fit a hope hub in a reputable brand with proper R&D and quality check they have been spot on.

[img] [/img]

Why i think one drop out is lower than the other.

[IMG] [/IMG]

I wouldn't count on the rack bosses being especially straight. It's also hard to tell with those tubes, it could be differences in the welds.

^^^^^^

After all the discussion on this forum about how ace it is even if its made in the Far East I don't know how you dare question the position of the rack mounts or welds

Rack mounts aren't the kind of thing I'd take critical measurements from. They should be reasonably straight, but I wouldn't count on it. The critical measurement is whether the axle is perpendicular to the seat tube, and to measure that you either need a frame jig, or a straight wheel you can eyeball against the seat tube.

^^^^^
I don't think the. Sarcasm was delivered

I wasn't sure 🙂

Besides, I thought everyone knew that unbranded eBay frames were just as good anyway?

I don't get why every one is asking for measurements etc..

Is the wheel properly in the drop out? if yes, is the wheel still off centre? If yes, send it back to get a replacement.

It was made perfect. Just a pain that it got colder the past month and it cooled down a little too quick ;O)

Why i think one drop out is lower than the other.

I can see how you might think that, but that really will have no effect on anything at the other end when it's jigged.

Misaligned dropouts could cause the wheel to do this, have you double-checked them?

Don't know if someone has already said this but is your wheel right?

Rear wheels are not symmetrical with respect to the flanges and need to be dished IIRC this means the rim sits closer to the drive side flange. This allows for the cassette on the driveside

If someone who built the wheel didn't know this the rim will be symetrical to the flanges and look off centre when in the frame.

Do you have another wheel to try?

[i]on't know if someone has already said this but is your wheel right? [/i]

he swtiched wheel around and the offset is the same, ergo rim is central on the hub but not central in frame.

Has the OP spoken to the supplier yet?

Don't know if someone has already said this but is your wheel right?

i.e. i can't be bother to read from the start in the OP stating he had aleady reversed the wheel to check for dish .. c:roll:

If someone who built the wheel didn't know this the rim will be symetrical to the flanges and look off centre when in the frame.

They'd have to be a total klutz to do this, as every trueing jig out there centres between the axle ends not the flanges.

Ok Cannondale have received the bike back and they say it was a problem with the dish of the wheel?! Despite me trying the wheel in the dropout both ways when i received the bike the which is the most obvious thing to try first, despite the wheel being swapped round [b]the gap always remained the same 5mm less on the none drive side[/b], ie there was is no fault with the dishing of the wheel, i didn't measure the spokes (not that would matter anyway) but wouldn't the wheel being on a single speed hub have the same size spokes both sides, making the wheel impossible to build with the dish that far out, maybe the spokes/hubs are A symetrical??? hmmm...

I thought i'd ask on here first before i sent the bike back, thanks to all those who responded, (i know a few of you) and appreciate the input from the experience bike builders on here, Tim, Brant etc. To put this into some kind of context I'm a qualified mechanic and used to prepare race cars and motorcycles for a living, so not really a numpty when it comes to what's right and what wrong as far as engineering goes, i could maybe should have rigged something up to measure the bike before i sent it back (but why should i have too?) Just thought i'd ask on here in case i'd missed something obvious.

Anyway the outcome being they wont send me another frame i can have the original one back with the wheel dishing corrected?!

Anyway the saga continues...

You are correct in saying that if the wheel is swapped around and the offset remains on the same side, then there is an issue with stay alignment.

What I would say is that stay misalignment doesn't automagically mean wheel misalignment along the frame.

I don't understand why you're discussing spoke lengths though. It doesn't matter what the dish is... if the "wrongness" remains constant whichever way around the wheel is fitted, then the frame is out of track and the wheel is dished correctly.

This is what's happening? Right?

What Brant said

but wouldn't the wheel being on a single speed hub have the same size spokes both sides, making the wheel impossible to build with the dish that far out, maybe the spokes/hubs are A symetrical??? hmmm...

Technically you could build any wheel out of dish and nowing the spokes lengths wont help you know whether it is in dish or not

You can make a cardboard dishing tool ?

Cut some cardboard to make a square [ ie 90 degree] U that touches on the rime and measure to the hub - do the same on the other side
If its not equal then its out of dish - given you are its about mm this is only a rough guide

I will add my voice to the many saying if you rule out too much paint inside the drive side dropout, (which would have been literally a two-minute check-and-fix for Cannondale CS), and the rim is skewed too far in the same direction whichever way round you put it in the frame then it is the frame which is at fault not the wheel.

This is shaping up to be some top PR for Cannondale Customer Services 😆

Hi Brant, yeah the "wrongness remains constant".

Obviously i first thought "the dish is out on the wheel!" swapping it round the "wrongness remained" ie wheel always remains 5mm closer to the non drive seatstay/chainstay, it doesn't switch sides.

Maybe they've just "cold set" the frame to correct it ;).

Where do you live? Take the frame to a decent shop with some dropout alignment tools and get it checked properly by someone who know's what they're looking for. I'll have a look if you're nearby, take about 30 seconds.

Hi Tim, yeah It's Jon... the one who crashes into Klein's at Cannock (now that back wheel did have dishing problem!), happy days!lol, will see what happens with it, and what they send back if anything! Never had this problem with my Inbred 😉

Surprised to see a new Cannondale like that, any decent LBS would have sent that straight back before it got to the customer. One of the hazards with buying online. Insist on a refund (or at least a replacement) and see if there's any decent local deals, saves hassle in the long run.

Jon you melon, get it over here at some point. And start riding with us again.

You can make a cardboard dishing tool ?

He's done that already, using the frame. Wheel was in an identical position both ways round -> axle nut to wheel centre is same both sides -> dishing spot on.

As above, get it looked at properly - check whether the wheel is in loine with the plane of the frame - it could be out in several ways.

It's possible that the wheel is properly aligned but one seatstay is closer in than the other, but very unlikely IME.

Hi Tim, yeah It's Jon... the one who crashes into Klein's at Cannock (now that back wheel did have dishing problem!), happy days!lol

Yes, but I fixed that wheel enough so we could all finish the Thursday night Sideways ride, didn't I? And weren't you on that carbon bike purple one side, yellow the other?

Still remember it, makes me laugh every time.

Hi Tim and John 🙂 This is a bike i've bought for riding in the winter! so i might come out for a blast when i have time.

They sent me another bike last Tuesday with a frame that no longer has the problem, ie the wheel is now centred with regards to the seat tube and stays, cheers to all those who replied.

Same wheel? So they were fobbing you off the first time? Not a good advert for Cannondale.