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I'm starting to think about getting an ebike again, however all I really want is the frame. Google seems to suggest that buying an ebike as frame only is not a thing, is there anything that I may have missed here? Why isn't this really a thing? S-works pricing is not in budget...
Side note: Are second hand ebikes a reasonably good idea yet? Are there many places doing battery/motor refurb? I went through a lot of both on my (2016, so early gen) Levo when I had one and think my (vey low cadence) pedalling style probably doesn't help...
There is the pole voima - that is the route I took.
Pole do theirs as a frame only. If you can stand the looks.
Some Santa Cruz dealers were doing theirs as a frame option, not officially I don’t think.
Commencal do frame only too I think.
Spesh do The 2022 Levo S-works as as a frame, motor, battery and associated wiring/TCU, shock and cranks
Can be picked up for 5k but as you said S-works pricing isnt really in you budget
Other option is to buy the lowest spec e bike then strip it and sell everything you dont want to recoup the money, so your looking at the 3.5k to 4k price and then hopefully recoup 1k from what you remove
plenty of chinese frames .. obviously all a lot of YMMV.. to fit bafang and similar and even some with posh motor mounts
I think your sidenote is the reason you'll not see any "big brand" frame only.. pretty much every mainstream motor has specific designed to fail parts you can't buy
I feel it's best to think of an eMTB as something you lease for the warranty period ... anything beyond is a bonus.
r2 do the Mondraker Crafty frame only, I thought it was right up my street until i saw the price.....
Are second hand ebikes a reasonably good idea yet? Are there many places doing battery/motor refurb? I went through a lot of both on my (2016, so early gen) Levo when I had one and think my (vey low cadence) pedalling style probably doesn’t help…
Probably with some good choices, yes. Maybe not a Shimano motor as repairs are few and far between. Bosch / Brose are a better option and these folk https://www.ebikemotorcentre.com/ look very organised on the repair front.
The cadence thing... I changed peddling style to a higher cadence for a couple of reasons. Brose motors are most efficient at higher cadence, they have a power window it's possible to feel you drop out of at lower rpm.
Second, max motor power / low cadence puts a massive torque (IMHO) through the drivetrain stressing it all out as well as sucking the juice from the battery. Imagine going slowly up a 1:3 in your car in 4th gear, sort of thing...
Thanks all, lots to look at and think about there. The ebikemotorcentre is certainly good to know about.
The cadence thing… I changed peddling style to a higher cadence for a couple of reasons. Brose motors are most efficient at higher cadence, they have a power window it’s possible to feel you drop out of at lower rpm.
Second, max motor power / low cadence puts a massive torque (IMHO) through the drivetrain stressing it all out as well as sucking the juice from the battery. Imagine going slowly up a 1:3 in your car in 4th gear, sort of thing…
I hear you, I just don't think that it's something I can do - I have a disability and my legs don't work properly, they don't seem to do spinning very well.
I was in the same boat as you, it was either a brand new Vitus E-sommet or a second hand something else. Everyone I know who’s had an e-sommet (mates and mates of mates…..about 8) has had issues with the shimano motor, the non serviceable/repairable bit is a deal breaker for me once that 2 year warranty is up. I managed to get a second hand 21 turbo kenevo with a brand new harness, controller and motor (straight back from warranty so zero miles) for 3k. Not sure it’s a wise move but hopefully I can get the motor repaired when it sh@ts the bed later down the line. First rides this weekend, loved it.
I hear you, I just don’t think that it’s something I can do – I have a disability and my legs don’t work properly, they don’t seem to do spinning very well.
depending what it is the more cadence sensitive motors will certainly encourage you and make it easier.
Everyone I know who’s had an e-sommet (mates and mates of mates…..about 8) has had issues with the shimano motor, the non serviceable/repairable bit is a deal breaker for me once that 2 year warranty is up.
That's pretty much all eBike motors though.
Shimano are particularly bad but all eBike motors are all designed to fail and be non repairable**.. shimano just got the timing wrong.
**They all (main manufacturers) have SPOF designed in that they refuse to sell so although some failures can be repaired there is always going to be some failure can't be.
I'd think at some point it might be like MTB forks where you can buy every assembly (even of sometimes the prices seem expensive for what they are) and they will be redesigned to be user serviceable.
I was also in the same boat, ended up buying a full bike and swapping parts over as its far more economical than buying frame only.
designed in
Really? So the manufacturer started with a blank sheet of paper and as part of the brief, deliberately made something that fails as part of the specification? I would have thought that failures would be designed out..
Not wanting and argument here, but.....
F
Here's the results from a couple of polls on the Orbea Rise owners Facebook group. Results seem to go against forum noise about Shimano motors, maybe a combination of milder tune on the Rise and 'you only hear about the failures' syndrome.
A one in ten with a failure or issue is quite high I'd say. If I were buying a bike with a shimano motor, I'd go with one of the 2023 motors which reportedly have better sealing. I ended up going with a discounted carbon 2022 bike with a Bosch CX motor though for the same cost as a lower end Shimano driven alloy bike.
This means I can sell the bits I don't need at a higher price recouping some additional cost.
Shimano are particularly bad but all eBike motors are all designed to fail and be non repairable**.. shimano just got the timing wrong.
The ebike motor repair guys linked above - previously Performance Line bearings - are capable of fixing most non-Shimano stuff and will upgrade earlier Brose motors with better bearings and (added) actual seals, which they did for me. If you kill the crank by trashing the bearing surfaces, it'll cost more, but still doable mostly I think. They were very efficient when they fixed my Brose motor a few months back.
It's probably fairer to say that none of the motors are currently easily user serviceable / repairable, but specialists with the right knowledge, spare parts and tooling can often do the job.
I'd be a little more wary of batteries though. They're expensive and there don't seem to be many repair options out there - the latest Spesh batteries, for example, are over a grand and even the earlier ones seem to be around 700 quid.
They all (main manufacturers) have SPOF designed in that they refuse to sell
You have definitive proof of this?
2nd motor on our Rise. First one was duff within a few miles of use… second running fine for ages.
Also, this is one of the reasons it’s hard to buy frame only… too risky for bike companies to let people self build. Buy a bike… have problems… take back to seller to sort out… irrelevant if it’s a fault with the motor or the build then… all in the hands of the retailer and suppliers combined.
Other option is to buy the lowest spec e bike then strip it and sell everything you dont want to recoup the money, so your looking at the 3.5k to 4k price and then hopefully recoup 1k from what you remove
This is what I'd do if I waist the OP's position.
The S-Works Kenevo SL frame RRP is £500 less than a complete Comp and is the same frame with different paint and carbon cranks, certainly not worth the premium.
Isn't the s-works a different carbon / lighter frame as well?
Not that I could justify the additional cost over the complete comp bike.
the recentish bird/ethic post about their ebike said they were putting a hold on production due to the high failure rate on their handful of Shimano test bikes, i think that says a lot about reliability when you leave the development expense in the either and forgo trying to make your money back
which is a shame as they were planning a frame/motor option
Theres quite a few other manufacturers that use the Shimano mount though - also the new Shimano motors ep6(01) and ep8(01) are supposed to be more reliable now.
Vitus use Shimano on the E-Sommet, but are moving to a Bafang system on the new E-Mythique.
the recentish bird/ethic post about their ebike said they were putting a hold on production due to the high failure rate on their handful of Shimano test bikes
That is annoying, I was hoping bird might have something soon (current bike is an am9). I am now leaning toward just buying a complete bike and selling off the bits that I don't want. Just got to work out how much assist/battery life I want now. Cadence range of the motor is certainly a consideration too...
Isn’t the s-works a different carbon / lighter frame as well?
If it is, they're not advertising it. Both are listed as FACT11M Carbon.
Edit: opps, forgot the better shock, X2 Factory compared to X.
Bird is working on a lightweight bike too. IIRC it was after the hold on the full fat one, so it might (probably?) be using a different motor.
Might be worth compatibility/future checking whatever you buy, e.g I **think** that the new shimano ep8(ep801), isnt backwardly compatible with the old one and it isn’t just motor bolt location compatibility, it’s battery bms version compatibility, cable type compatibility and firmware/software compatibility (which controls what displays work)and poss axle location to mounting bolts compatibility.
E.g I don’t really want to buy a Shimano engine again(having had one already) but the orbea rise appears to be nearest to my ideal bike , so if the ep801 had been a straight swap for the ep8 I might have cracked as I can get a rise at a really good price and take the hit on buying new motors more often than I think reasonable.
I’m also thinking about an old levo sl (as they’re really cheap) but again the new motor etc etc appears different so how long will spares / new ‘old’ motors be available.
towzer... one upside with bikes that can be linked to apps is that battery charge cycles and health, firmware and version for all functions and milage are all visible, so that could help inform the buying process based on what the bike tells you has happened, not the owner.
Isn’t the s-works a different carbon / lighter frame as well?
Not with the Kenevo SL - I was looking at the Comp but bought an Expert in the sales, wanted the 38's.
I don’t have an EMTB but I have a Tern GSD. The motor got a bit rough at 8000 miles of mainly rural and often wet riding so I had it serviced. It took 20 mins to get the motor off, was back from ebike motor centre within a week and re-fitted and back on the road in 40 mins. The price for the service was reasonable. Assuming it runs for another few thousand miles then I think keeping it running longer term should be feasible and much than viewing the bikes as obsolete when the warranty is expired.
If the main issue is bearing wear due to water ingress, I recon it wouldn’t be too difficult to get proficient at servicing the bearings yourself. The videos make it look doable. If it’s only a once every two years event I’m not sure it’s worth it.
Might be worth compatibility/future checking whatever you buy, e.g I **think** that the new shimano ep8(ep801), isnt backwardly compatible with the old one and it isn’t just motor bolt location compatibility, it’s battery bms version compatibility, cable type compatibility and firmware/software compatibility (which controls what displays work)and poss axle location to mounting bolts compatibility.
Other than a DIY build from aliexpress, no EMTBS are designed to have the motor changed to a newer specification one. It's often difficult to even buy the motor unless you go second hand, as dealers want the old one back and only supply the same one as a replacement. Everything is locked down and OEM only.
I've got two E-MTBS - a homebuilt On One Codeine 29er with 750w TongSheng and a Haibike XDuro NDuro with a Bosch CX.
(TBH I prefer riding the homebrew bike.)
If (when) I get another one it'll be a Dengfu E10\E55\E69 with a Bafang M620 or the new M630.
You can get the frames with a motor & battery for around £2.1k then build the rest as you want.
Bafang systems can be fixed or simply replaced as they're relatively cheap. Dengfu also make frames that take Shimano motors but, as highlighted above, you probably wouldn't want one.
EP801 will fit frames made for EP8(00)... but, yes, you are likely to have to change other parts of the system as well.
Still a relatively new concept(yes yes I know, try not to flap) so i think in the near future, say 4 or so years, frame availability will be the norm across the manufacturers.
What might happen, is frames being sold genuinely "frame only"... ie no motor, no battery, no nothing. Because the step between that and "a ebike without fork, wheels, brake and gears" makes little sense to those selling... especially as motor systems and gearing become more integrated as Shimano & SRAM seek to maximise the OEM grab they get with their motor systems (yes, yes.. SRAM motor isn't here yet... but it's odds on they'll seek to integrate everything they can to tie manufacturers to as much of their kit as possible).
Really? So the manufacturer started with a blank sheet of paper and as part of the brief, deliberately made something that fails as part of the specification? I would have thought that failures would be designed out..
Not wanting and argument here, but…..
Why wouldn't they?
It's essentially luxury consumer tech like a high end phone. Similar sort of price and people buy phones knowing they have built in obsolescence.
From the manufacturer side its cheaper to produce non-serviceable units and like phones there will be some new "must have" thing in couple of years makes enough people happy enough to just buy a new motor or a new bike.
Random google result
https://www.hihonor.com/uk/blog/how-long-do-smartphones-last/#:~:text=FAQs%20about%20smartphone s'%20lifespan&text=Most%20smartphones%20have%20(on%20average,lifespan%20of%202%20%E2%80%93%204%20years.
They seem to be selling longer lasting phones so perhaps biased but the text seems reasonable to me?
Remember when you used to be able to buy external batteries ... then internal but changeable then increasingly sealed.
The question “how long do smartphones last” has been debated for years now. Some are saying that the average is 2.5 years, others say 3 years, and there are also some people who claim that it is actually 1.5 years. These figures are different from each other, which vary depending on the make and model of the phone, as well as how well it is taken care of.
doomaniac
You have definitive proof of this?
The total lack of any source where I can buy a Bosch mainboard or shimano torque sensor and instructions
For comparison a 6yr old Fork
https://trailhead.rockshox.com/en/upgrade-kits/FS-PIKE-RC-A2/140/SOLO%20AIR
https://www.sram.com/globalassets/document-hierarchy/spare-parts/spare-parts-catalog/2022-rockshox-spare-parts-catalog.pdf
I can buy every single part/assembly from full CSU/lowers to a whole damper to seals... and have detailed instructions how to service/upgrade. It's designed to be serviceable and the parts and instructions are available - its pretty much binary, either it was designed to last and be serviced with parts made available or not.
As above not different to mobile phones...
Really? So the manufacturer started with a blank sheet of paper and as part of the brief, deliberately made something that fails as part of the specification? I would have thought that failures would be designed out..
Watch this where the Shimano Product Manager for the US talks about what happens when the crank seal on the new Shimano EP801 wears out...
Watch this where the Shimano Product Manager for the US talks about what happens when the crank seal on the new Shimano EP801 wears out…
From memory isn't he Nordics product manager???
I couldn't watch that through when it came out. Any half decent interview would have started with what percentage ever make it through to the end of warranty followed up by why do so many fail and what are you doing about it.
I got as far as the "we added the BMS".. and clocked out.
Apparently the failed EP8's are getting the new seal but can't be worse than the original ??
As well as the eBike Motor Centre that was posted above:
EBike Motor Centre on Facebook
there was another service centre posted on another thread previously, E-Bike Motor Repairs:
E-Bike Motor Repairs on Facebook
which looked interesting as they showed some Shimano motors they had worked on.
Another option to that mentioned is the new CYC Photon motor and fitment to a normal MTB frame, which is similair to the Bafang and TongSheng TSDZ22 motors but smaller (with a 34T chainring option) and it seems much better built with lots of good reviews on YouTube and very favourable comments about the torque sensing feel of the motor.
The motor is unfortunately also non-user serviceable with a warranty of 2 years and CYC reckon it should last two years (!), but E-Bike Motor Repairs say that they can service CYC motors (and Bafang) once they are out of warranty.
I also spotted some encouraging comments on the E-Bike Motor Repairs facebook page with reference to CYC lasting UK winter weather:
"Lev Leon
E-Bike Motor Repairs did you do any mods to motors to prevent water from getting in ? i used to have custom emtb with cyc motor. went through harsh underwater situations will 0 water inside. ( checked right after ). ..."
"E-Bike Motor Repairs
Lev some we do yes but some have no ways to add an extra seal. Yes I also have a cyc x1 stealth and find it great."
The other CYC Motors, and the stock Photon, come in UK-law busting power options only, but an enquiry to CYC yielded that they do an EN15194 compliant version (250W, 15.5mph, sticker showing 250W and the voltage and manufacturer), although this is special order.
I don't fancy ordering it from HK and having to return it to HK if there are problems, and CYC also seem very tardy answering email queries (can't blame these small companies too much for that) so I have emailed around the three UK distributiors I can find to see if they can source the motor:
Electric Bike Conversion ( https://electric-bike-conversions.co.uk)
BesBike ( https://besbike.co.uk/)
Paradise Cycles ( https://www.paradisecycles.co.uk/cyc-photon-mid-drive-motor-kit.html).
(I've got nothing to do with these shops or CYC, or anything to do with the bike industry...)
Paradise haven't replied but BesBike have said that they should be able to request that version, so I think I am going to go through BesBike, plus their batteries as the new CYC batteries seem an awkward shape for a FS MTB.
The CYC equiped bike is going to be a full-fat cruiser for recovery days whilst I attempt to get fit enough to ride the normal mtb the rest of the time (it's hilly round here), and if that doesn't work I will get an Orbea Rise...
Just on the Nordic product manager bit
Call me a grumpy, cynical old bar steward but answer the question below anyway.
Right chaps where will we get motors we make reviewed ?
A - in the Uk where the warranty is 2 years
B - Norway where the warranty is 5 years