[Closed] Frame building: anyone learnt? Done a course? Taught yourself?

Bicycle academy can't teach in Ti can they?

Won't be Titanium; I wasn't thinking that at all. Just would be nice to make something I could use, nothing fancy. But overall to learn how to do it. That's the fun bit.

Ah fair enough, just wondered after your previous thread. Would love to do a bike academy course when I have the time.

Dave Yates is the one everyone seems to have gone on, and he's been doing them since forever. The other thing is not to underestimate the cost of the kit, I looked into it a while ago and a 'one of everything' approach to kitting out the shed for framebuilding cost more than four or five decent frames. So either it's a serious hobby, you can convince a few mates to club together to do it, or you have very deep pockets it's a serious commitment just for one or two frame.

With TBA you don't get to keep the frame do you, so unless your local and can make use of the workshops afterwards it's an expensive week.

Anyway, I thought you were the toast of the framebuilding world and everyone wanted to work with you?

Dave yates lets you build your own bike (within reason)
Bike academy make you build a bike for Africa

If you're interested in frame building then this lot give you complete flexibility as you build it at home in your shed/garage;

[img] [/img]

[url= http://bamboobicycleclub.org/kits-for-bamboo-bike-building/ ]http://bamboobicycleclub.org/kits-for-bamboo-bike-building/[/url]

I did The Bicycle Academy Africa bike course. I really enjoyed it and would totally recommend it. They do other courses now so you can build a bike for yourself. I've ended up buying all the kit and building more frames at home. Annoyingly the website seems to crash if I try and post pictures. Currently awaiting some dropouts so I can get on with a new touring bike. The wait is killing me.

I think I saw your xc bike at last years SSUK. Green with the carbon seat tube. Beautiful bike!

"Anyway, I thought you were the toast of the framebuilding world and everyone wanted to work with you?"

No, apparently that's Brant. 😉

"So either it's a serious hobby, you can convince a few mates to club together to do it, or you have very deep pockets it's a serious commitment just for one or two frame."

I am considering helping set up a very talented lad I know to be able to create stuff in metal, and hopefully frames, so I'm currently thinking about a workshop space. He'd be able to teach basic welding, which could help to fund development. And my pockets aren't that deep, but there's funds available.

"Bike academy make you build a bike for Africa"

B.A do courses where you keep the bike; you're talking about the 'Classic' frame building course I think. But that seems like fun anyway, and a very worthwhile use of time.

I did a welding evening class a couple of years ago with the intention of making a bike frame or two. I can't remember now, but the course must have been run over 6 or 8 weeks, 2 or 3 hours per session.

Before the course began I looked out some plans for an 'easy' frame...

However, I learned early on that I'd be unlikely to learn the necessary skills within the timeframe of the course, let alone actually build a bike!

I ended up using the time to try out a few different techniques - brazing, gas welding, MIG, and TIG, not to mention plasma cutting! By the end of the course I still couldn't satisfactorily join pieces of thick steel, although I had strained my eyes in the process.

The course taught me that it would take many hours of practice before I'd able to make a nice job of welding or brazing thin bicycle tubes. However, I suspect most people who enrol on a bike-building course have at least some metalwork and welding experience. If not, I'm not sure how it would be possible to build a frame during the course - perhaps the instructor would weld it.

Yeah that was mine, thanks Everyone.
https://flic.kr/p/okBsrJ

This is the last one I did:
http://www.benbroomfield.com/Work/Bespoked/Bespoked-Studio-2015/n-gdrrcr/i-xWrkZpB/A

"The course taught me that it would take many hours of practice before I'd able to make a nice job of welding or brazing thin bicycle tubes. However, I suspect most people who enrol on a bike-building course have at least some metalwork and welding experience."

I was thinking about how it might be a good idea to learn how to weld stuff first. This lad can teach me, but we need somewhere for him to do this (his current employers are idiots who can't understand just what a great idea it would be, to invest a bit of money in this, and what great potential dividends it could produce). My home workshop is full of very flammable wood.

Wow, shaggy; they are gorgeous bikes! How long have you been building your own? That's a very good endorsement of the course!

When I looked at this ages ago, welding was the easy part, nice tube miters was the hard part. I gave up

Where abouts are you?
If in the south east [url= http://downlandcycles.co.uk/ ]These guys[/url] might be of use?
I've not used them myself but pretty sure one of the bike mags used them a few years ago and were quite pleased with the results.

Hi, I did the Downland frame course, it is intensive and pretty knackering really.
It is not a cheap way to get a frame, by the time you factor in the materials and accomodation, they even charged extra for silver braze!
The frame whilst rideable is certainly not a work of art. I was told that most first time builders usually end up cutting the first frame up.
I spent a lot of money to get a frame that would have been cheaper to get from shand.
By all means go on the course and learn how to file notches.

I'm not looking to produce anything amazing, more to learn the basics and gain a foundation from which to build. I appreciate it will take years of dedication and effort to get really good at it. I'd just like to be able to understand what's involved, for the experience it will give me.

Then I can tell someone in China to build me exactly what I want. 😉

I would certainly consider The Bicycle Academy. Robin Mather and Ted James are teaching, tubesmiths the pair of them.

Any local colleges do anything interesting? I started off at North Glasgow College on an evening course with an ex shipyard welder called Willie Bell. Then just lots of practicing.

Cost of the kit can be very expensive or very cheap - at the minimum, you need a vice, hacksaw, some files and a way of sticking metal together. Oxyacetylene kit is cheap, but check the rules about where you're allowed to have it. TIG is more expensive, but you won't blow up the neighbourhood.

Another thumbsup for the Bicycle Academy. Thanks tang.

Bencooper; I intend to learn a bit about welding first; there are some local education places that run courses, and if we can get some workshop space, then the lad I know can teach me and others. I think he may have done the Dave Yates course. I can get hold of a never-ending supply of old steel frames to take apart and use as practice materials. There's a very small possibility that we can buy out an existing bike recycling service too. So the longer view is to look at setting up something that can potentially offer training and creative workshop space, as well as eventually bespoke frame building. But it's all in the ideas stage at the moment; what I have to do is gain experience and knowledge.

There's a nice little American book on lugged frame building 'Lugged Bicycle Frame Construction' by Marc-Andre Chimonas. I'm in the process of acquiring a set of bottles and regulators etc. and will give it a go after lots of practice - did and engineering apprenticeship many years ago so was taught gas welding / brazing / soldering etc so hopefully the 'feel' will come back to me.

his current employers are idiots who can't understand just what a great idea it would be, to invest a bit of money in this, and what great potential dividends it could produce

Or maybe they are realistic and don't have money, time or resources to throw at someones hobby?

mark at nerve bikes now called reilly cycleworks does a course he is in brighton

"Or maybe they are realistic and don't have money, time or resources to throw at someones hobby?"

No, they are actually idiots. They could be making some decent money from running welding courses, and the initial outlay would be relatively very small. They have perfectly suited yet redundant space they are currently paying for, which could have been used. And far from being 'someone's hobby', it would ultimately be complementary to the business. But their loss could well be our gain.

Bicycle manufacturing used to be one of the things this country excelled at. Exploitation of cheap overseas labour may have helped kill it off, but it's good to see a resurgence of the industry, even in a relatively very small way. And I'd love to be part of that. I might of course never be any good at it, but it would be nice to try!

MTBR frame builders forum is a very useful resource - a good smattering of (helpful) pros, and a load of guys doing what you want to do.

Velocipede Salon is also good. Though the willy waving on framebuilding forums makes this place look very warm and fluffy 😉

Thanks JonE and Ben. Will check those out.

Ben; how long have you been making bike frames?

Just been blasting my wife's front triangle during lunchtime at work. That sounds very wrong.... I somehow doubt that this cross frame will be ready for the first race on Saturday 🙂

Self taught brazing, but did an Engineering apprenticeship years ago and also degree etc. Initially got permission at work to play in the fab shop when everyone had gone home. Now set up with a small fireproof shed, oxygen concentrator and propane at home. Not ideal, but it is better than trudging into work at weekend with jig etc.

Probably learnt most from searching MTBR Frame forum and photos on Steve Garro and Julie Racing Designs amongst others.

Very good guys at the BA. Probably at the stage where I'd really benefit from a 1 day brazing masterclass to unlearn some bad habits / learn a different perspective. But also quite like being 100% diy.

[img] [/img]

Ben; how long have you been making bike frames?

Almost 20 years I reckon.

[i]Almost 20 years I reckon.[/i]

that means you're still an amateur in bartyp's eyes I expect 😉

o, they are actually idiots. They could be making some decent money from running welding courses,

Depends, I used to work in a bit more "hands on" engineering, bills for welding were done at £100 per inch (this wasn't "seagull **** on carbon steel" though), tying up a welder and 3 stations doing a course for 2 people paying £1k a week would not be good business sense.

"Almost 20 years I reckon."

Blimey! That's quite an 'apprenticeship'! Do you have any pictures of your work? Especially interested in more 'creative' or 'arty' stuff.

"tying up a welder and 3 stations doing a course for 2 people paying £1k a week would not be good business sense.
"

They could charge half that and still turn a useful profit, as part of a larger project. Plus other staff members would have the opportunity to learn skills too; the management fail to see the longer term goal though, sadly.

I assume Ben won't mind me linking his FB to here.

Have a scroll down his timeline for lots of interesting engineering and some unusual frame builds.

"Just been blasting my wife's front triangle during lunchtime at work"

Nice. She must be very happy!

"Very good guys at the BA"

I'm hearing some very positive noises about them from others too. Annoying that it's a bit 'out of the way', but might be fun for a mini-holiday.

Front triangle is now all clean and shiny, although occasional bits of grit are still falling out of the tubes. Just been to the bike shop and bought her a Hope headset for these new-fangled 44mm head tubes / tapered steerers - that made her even happier.

Just lost half an hour on Ben's FB page.

I first met Andrew from BA a few years ago and it has been great to watch it grow - really nice to catch up with their progress at each Bespoked gathering. If I ever pay for a course it will be there (even though it is opposite end of the country).

Blimey! That's quite an 'apprenticeship'! Do you have any pictures of your work? Especially interested in more 'creative' or 'arty' stuff.

The FB page has quite a bit, I also put pics on Flickr when I remember:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/cycleologist/

I'm pretty rubbish at marketing, though - keep thinking I should be more organised about showing things I've built.

do not under estimate how difficult or time consuming it is to make a frame or the hardware required.
How will you do decent mitres?
How will you bend tubing?
Jigging?
Alignment?
Safely Joining of thin wall tubing?
Thread chasing?
Reaming?

I love steel frames and have access and the skills to use a full machine shop including milling and lathes, waterjet and laser cutting, TIG and brazing equipment. I'm an engineer of 27years, have SolidWorks Premium 2015 licence but choose to buy my steel frames as I appreciate the skill, time and dedication people like Bencooper have in their craft.
Good luck OP you'll need it.

They could charge half that and still turn a useful profit, as part of a larger project. Plus other staff members would have the opportunity to learn skills too; the management fail to see the longer term goal though, sadly.

They couldn't, otherwise everyone would do it and Dave Yates would be driving a Ferrari.

I'm impressed by your enthusiasm, but I'd not trust someone who's frame building experience was only to have built a frame on the Dave Yates course to build me a frame, let alone base a business around him relaying that information 2nd hand!

While frame building isn't the black art many would have you believe, it's a shed load more complex than you appear to think it is and the idea that a 52k business income is a sustainable business idea is amusing at best.

Being able to teach framebuilding is also a very different skill to being able to framebuild - I don't think I'd be a particularly good instructor.

Being able to teach framebuilding is also a very different skill to being able to framebuild - I don't think I'd be a particularly good instructor.

That's why I like what I've seen / heard of the BA approach. They appear to have concentrated on breaking down and developing teaching methods for each of the steps and skills.

Framebuilding (brazing not TIG) isn't especially difficult to do safely - but there is certainly an element of drudge and tedium to some of it - I spent enough hours as an apprentice filing and polishing lumps of steel to know I wouldn't want it as a full time day job.

Has any one actually built or ridden one of those bamboo frames? do they actually work?

There's at least one completely homebrew one on STW. He made it using an old Giant XTC carbon frame for the BB/dropouts/headtube/seatpost collar etc and roll wrapped the carbon with perforated electrical tape.

[i]Has any one actually built or ridden one of those bamboo frames?[/i]

I went to a talk by the company in Brighton a while back.

The process seemed sound, they had a few bikes there that looked fine and were clearly well used.

For me, the issue was always that the tube junctions always look a little agricultural but I think it's part of 'the look' so if you can cope with that then all's good.

It might be a cheap way to prototype a custom frame geometry before you get something made in Ti etc?

Yeah just thought it looks like it could be fun to build at home with the kids, but don't want to splash out for something that will be a bag of crap.

I'm not expecting super high quality but if you get a bike that actually works at the end it could be good building one at home.

OP, I think you'd be best off not venturing onto the VP Salon forum, atmo.

THere's a nice wooden bike kicking about on there though, similar sort of thing to the bamboo jobbies (similar as in it's made from wood).

Just get Ben Cooper to build you something.

Job done.

Just get Ben Cooper to build you something.

Job done.

Exactly. Or Brant for Ti stuff. Two people you know'll build you a good frame.

"Just get Ben Cooper to build you something."

Yore missing the entire point, which is to learn how to do something. I can easily go and buy pretty much any frame on the market, but that's not what I want. I would like to learn new skills, and gain a better understanding of bicycle frame manufacture. In the past, I've taught myself woodwork to an acceptable standard, and can make my own furniture. I have several pieces around the house which give me enormous satisfaction to use and own. I'm currently making a piece for a friend, which is a lot of fun and very rewarding.

I do love Ben Cooper's work, and would love him to make me something one day. I'm very envious of his skills and talents.

Brant, as we've already established, doesn't make frames, but designs them and has them made abroad. Again, this isn't what I'm looking for.

"They couldn't, otherwise everyone would do it and Dave Yates would be driving a Ferrari.

I'm impressed by your enthusiasm, but I'd not trust someone who's frame building experience was only to have built a frame on the Dave Yates course to build me a frame, let alone base a business around him relaying that information 2nd hand!"

I don't think you actually understand what we'd like to achieve; we aren't going into bike frame production any time soon. The idea was to be able to provide simple repairs, and some basic welding training, which could bring in extra revenue as well as valuable experience. It's not all about massive profits. Sadly, the current manager isn't as far-sighted as the previous one. As for the lad himself; you have absolutely no idea what he has achieved or is capable of, based on the lack of information you have. I'm confident he has the skills and talent to be able to progress in this area, given the right resources. Which is whyI'm willing to invest in the project.

"While frame building isn't the black art many would have you believe, it's a shed load more complex than you appear to think it is and the idea that a 52k business income is a sustainable business idea is amusing at best."

Again, you've got things wrong. I'd like to learn how to build a bike frame, and help start up a project which could one day possible lead to bike frame production, as well as other creative stuff, and possible become an educational resource for others. Again, it's not all about money. We can secure sufficient financial resources to get things off the ground, plus be able to sustain the project for at least a few years. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[i]I'd like to learn how to build a bike frame[/i]

When you started you were looking to find a uk based frame builder who understood enough to design and build you a Ti frame.

Now you're building your own design of frame to your own design out of steel?

It's not surprising people are a bit confused?

"When you started you were looking to find a uk based frame builder who understood enough to design and build you a Ti frame.

Now you're building your own design of frame to your own design out of steel?

It's not surprising people are a bit confused?"

They are two separate things. I am going to have a Titanium frame made, and I also want to learn how to make my own frame (from steel as that's the material used in all of the courses). The frame building/welding/metalworking project is also completely separate. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Investigations into having a Titanium frame made led me to think about also learning to build a bike frame myself. And to look more into the proposed workshop project. I think some folk have jumped to their own conclusions about what I want to do.

@mick_r how do you find the o2 concentrator? How many cfm does it produce and is it enough? Do you have to wait for it to charge up then braze in short bursts?

I've done the Dave Yates course. I built a nice steel touring frame, with disks, a couple of years before disks on road bikes had really taken off (just over 3 years ago).

It was a lot of fun, but I've forgotten most of what I learned by now 🙂 I'd need to do it again if I wanted to build another frame, but that probably wouldn't be the case if I did it 6 months later. Dave is great, and there's a reason the waiting list is over a year - I really struggled getting a mitre correct and he was very patient. Also its right near some RAF airfield with lots of old bombers and jets taking off and landing. I went in with no welding/brazing experience and came out with a frame that (to my eye anyway) looks very good (no obvious defects certainly).

I've ridden ~5000 miles on the bike, and its performed flawlessly. My only frustration is that I still get pedal overlap (i have big feet and longish cranks on it) - if I'd bought everything along with me I could have made sure it wasn't the case. I certainly won't be 'cutting it up' any time soon. From a cost perspective, it worked out a few hundred quid more than a custom frame built by Dave himself (~£1200 with paint vs ~£900). For me, that was money well spent

here's some pictures of the build and the completed frame..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/5lab/sets/72157658783132681

[url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/765/20893201793_f7a7aed595_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/765/20893201793_f7a7aed595_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/xQg7Z8 ]IMG_2851[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/5lab/ ]Hugh Lunnon[/url], on Flickr

[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5793/21326267180_9027c798fa_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5793/21326267180_9027c798fa_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/yuwGeJ ]IMG_2860[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/5lab/ ]Hugh Lunnon[/url], on Flickr

[url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/639/20891473404_01a9e0d3e0_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/639/20891473404_01a9e0d3e0_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/xQ7gcj ]IMG_2857[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/5lab/ ]Hugh Lunnon[/url], on Flickr

[url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/681/21522956361_6c688b5a92_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/681/21522956361_6c688b5a92_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/yMUM5v ]IMG_3296[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/5lab/ ]Hugh Lunnon[/url], on Flickr

[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5834/21503132672_78e77505b8_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5834/21503132672_78e77505b8_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/yLabbL ]IMG_3298[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/5lab/ ]Hugh Lunnon[/url], on Flickr

[url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/597/21503155142_bdb8ec4640_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/597/21503155142_bdb8ec4640_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/yLahSb ]IMG_3813[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/5lab/ ]Hugh Lunnon[/url], on Flickr

Nice bike!

@mick_r how do you find the o2 concentrator?

Apologies to the OP for digression 🙂

Concentrator is OK - not as nice as having big bottles of oxy-acet but certainly usable as a safe home alternative.

It will give up to 5l/min, but I generally run around 3. I'm using a Saffire 3 torch (my father in law had one spare in his shed) and have settled on a no.7 tip (propane needs bigger tips and a slightly different lighting / flame size / setting technique to acetylene).

Oxygen is ready to run almost straight away. I find it works best if I can keep running the flame constantly. If I turn off the torch for a few minutes it sometimes gets upset and puts the service light on (it just seems to want a rest). Also sometimes starts a slow pulse of reduced oxygen flow rate (maybe one cycle every 15 seconds) so the flame goes a bit orange / has to be removed from the workpiece (slightly annoying).

It is an ex-hire Devilbiss. I just googled it and there seems to be lots of service manuals / troubleshooting info so might investigate more.

Fine for fillets and dropouts - not tried it for anything like a big lugged bb shell or "pepperpot" torch tips.

Thanks mick. My Dada got a o/a and a o/p tourch unused and I was going to set up the o/p tourch but had never thought about using a concentrator. I think I'll still compare the cost of o2 bottles over a year or two vs the concentrator.

Glad to be of help - I really struggled for any information when I bought it.

I never managed to find a specific o/p torch (spoke to Murex but they don't do any different tips or mixers for the Saffire). The only specific o/p stuff was for flame cutting / general heating (I guess you already know not to try welding steel with propane - only OK for brazing or cutting as there can be metallurgical issues with welds).

I'm sure concentrator isn't the cheapest or nicest option, I just didn't fancy any home hassles - so a small bbq propane bottle and low pressure "on demand" oxygen was the easy option. I never investigated, but an oxy bottle might not be a major hassle anyway (acetylene is great to use but don't fancy living next to the bottle).

From the looks of Jo Burt's Instagram feed, it appears that there may well be an article about the Downlands Cycles frame building course appearing somewhere in the not too distant future.

I'm going to a local FE college tomorrow, to check out the welding/fabrication courses they run, so hopefully I'll be enrolling on something which will give me a basic foundation. Is there anything I should be concentrating on, which would be beneficial to going on to a frame-building course? I imagine sheet metal work probably won't be as useful as learning how to mitre and join tubes.

Well their welding courses are aimed at the automotive/sheet metal fabrication and repair industries, seemed very rigidly structured, and won't really be involving much tube joining, so not for me. Pursuing a couple of other avenues though, so still hopeful.

I've made 3 now, all lugged, brass brazed using oxygen and propane.
The start up is quite expensive, but I have the gas tanks rent free, maybe 200 for the torches / hoses and maybe 200 for aluminium stuff to make a jig (which you dont actually need). Then the rest is all normal tools, i use hacksaws and files, that's it really.
I'm completely self taught, never held a torch before I started number 1.
I had my name down for a frame from a big name builder and got messed around so much that i thought "screw this, it cant be that hard" and really, its not.
Take your time, practice on scrap (ceeway will sell you cheap tubes to practice on) and enjoy the learning experience. For me, this is a world away from my real job, and I love it. It's taking me 6 mths or so per frame, but its a hobby and the joy is in making them, not necessarily finishing them, if you see what i mean. No. 4 will be disc braked, fillet brazed, so a load more stuff to learn!

The first spin down the road on your first frame is fantastic...I raced number 3 on its first outing last weekend, that was pretty cool as well!

[img][url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/618/22163696980_82c1a5f48d_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/618/22163696980_82c1a5f48d_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/zLwJWy ]DSC_3527_edited-1[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/111375637@N03/ ]Mark Yandle[/url][/img]

[img][url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5833/21728966474_2d412acd72_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5833/21728966474_2d412acd72_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/z77CH1 ]DSC_3547_edited-1[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/111375637@N03/ ]Mark Yandle[/url][/img]

http://snapwidget.com/v/1120172881128916052

@mayan - that's really nice - well done!

I have a shed full of old steel bikes and a head full of silly ideas so I've just bought a Bullfinch Autotorch, 1kg of bronze rods, flux and bottle of propane. £200 investment shared with a friend. Who knows what we'll end up with!

Oh that's beautiful, Mayan!

I'm completely self taught, never held a torch before I started number 1.

That's really very interesting. And contradicts what some others have said. Although I'm under no illusion that it's easy!

Busta; be sure to post up your results here!

Dont be fooled by the nice paint job! I've no doubt that my brazing is amateur at best. I read somewhere to make a good-looking frame you have to be good at either brazing or filing. To make a good frame you need to good at both. I'm very much in the former camp at the moment - I spent way longer cleaning up afterwards that cutting or brazing the tubes.
This is the front triangle before any clean-up, the flux is burnt and the HAZ is far too big - both signs that I'm using too much heat.

[img][url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5452/18664285730_a03f8703a7_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5452/18664285730_a03f8703a7_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/urikTQ ]DSC_3462[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/111375637@N03/ ]Mark Yandle[/url], on Flickr[/img]

But equally don't be daunted, if you're reasonably mechanically minded its not that hard, but if you can get advice / help / tuition from someone I'd always recommend you go that route.
Just on the costs - I forgot to mention the finishing of the frame, you'll either need to find someone with some expensive tools to ream, face and chase the seat tube, head tube, and BB or buy them. I bought them cos there is no-one nearby with them. That's about 300 or 400 worth of very nice tools.

With the internet, it's certainly much easier to teach yourself than it used to be. Worth bearing in mind, though, that just because framebuilding can be self-taught doesn't make it easy - most of what separates me from me 20 years ago isn't learning more "stuff", it's practice.

I'm going to a local FE college tomorrow, to check out the welding/fabrication courses they run

Did you tell them they were wrong?

https://bohemianbicyclesfaq.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/all-available-framebuilding-classes/

I'm going to get a friend to show me some basics of tube welding, as the FE college only do sheet materials.

With the internet, it's certainly much easier to teach yourself than it used to be. Worth bearing in mind, though, that just because framebuilding can be self-taught doesn't make it easy - most of what separates me from me 20 years ago isn't learning more "stuff", it's practice.

Of course. Or you can just use cheap labour in the far east. 😉

Or you can just use cheap labour in the far east.

You think someone like Giant are just about cheap labour, have you seen some of their aluminium hydroformed frames or their use of carbon fiber?

Far more high tech than welding some steel tubes together, like was done back in the day.