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I have these on my new bike and it doesn't really match my (spoilt) expectations as a Formula Selva R rider. I've read about issues with them having not enough oil or too much grease etc. and that people doing a lower leg or full service immediately. My bike is current model year but had been on display at the bike shop for almost a year.
It's the Factory Grip 2 version. The bike is a light eMTB (4kg heavier than my other bike) but the fork is the standard tune.
It may well be I haven't got the setup right, although I have spent some time focusing on that, but it doesn't all seem quite alright - absolutely and relatively comparing:
1. Returning to inconsistent sag amount most of the time when bouncing to measure.
2. Needs more hand force to move when pushing down on the stem cap.
3. Feels harsher on rocky descent despite having 20mm more travel (160mm).
4. Goes through travel quicker and uses more of it on drops.
5. Adding HSC to make it feel like the Selva (gold CTS valve) on drops, makes it harsh on rocky bridleways.
6. Feels ok on rough trails and during rides but after a quite flat 50km loop mostly on not very rough tracks there was a slight vibration fatigue in my hands that evening which is still lingering a day later. Bike saddle to bar distance is the same as my other bike, same bar sweeps and roll, same grips, same tyre at same pressure, total stack to bar is 15mm higher.
I started with the recommended settings which put me at about 20% sag (Fox calls that "plush" and 15% "firm"). That felt very harsh so I've gone up bit by bit to 30% sag (maybe too much, but it made it comfier), opening the rebound as I go.
Thought it worth checking for other STW experiences before sinking more time into it, cheers.
I am half minded to send both forks to a suspension place and ask them to service the 36 and adjust it to be as close as possible to the Selva.
Humor me, take wheel out and leave axle out, put on a carpet and bounce them.
I saw either a click bait or interesting Insta where it's the axle and legs being out of alignment and they pull the lowers incorrectly etc.
I love 36s. My last 3 bikes have had them, weirdly I could never get 1 set as nice as the others
Possible issues include too much grease in air spring (negative side), too tight bushings and the inconsistent damper builds. First one is easy fix, second needs shop with bushing tool and third needs new damper (MRP Lift) or damper rebuild and tuning.
My last two Fox 36s were excellent in bike parks but I ride those only on 2-3 days per year. They have been replaced with other brands which work better for my tastes.
I'd do a lowers and air spring service to start with.
Takes very little time.
I always drop the lowers on any new fork.
No you shouldn't have to on a new product, but for the time it takes it's worth it.
If you have a little more time also remove the damper then put the wheel back in and check how easily the fork slides through its stroke under it's own weight.
That will show if the bushings need burnishing.
I can't remember the last time I had a new fork where I didn't do the lowers service, air spring and bushing burnish before fitting them. It always helps.
Op - I’ve just got a new ebike with the same fork, and after 1 ride thought exactly the same thing! I felt battered after 2 laps at llandegla which IMO is quite a smooth trail
Ive done all the internet searching about needing a service when new, or needing some time to bed in.
Last night I went through all the setup again, like you setting the sag to max.
I will try Weeksy’s idea
I know it doesn’t help, but I did test ride the exact bike i bought with the same Fox 36 and that fork felt really smooth and just what I would hope for. Unfortunately I don’t know what settings they had the damper set at
I felt battered after 2 laps at llandegla which IMO is quite a smooth trail
I find Llandegla quite battered and worn out, I run 36's and I have no issues, I did end up dropping a PSI or 2 from the front tyre though
It's highly likely that the air shaft is clogged with blobs of grease, so whip that out ASAP. If there's excess grease in the negative chamber, it effectively reduces the volume of the chamber and you will have a fork that's less plush off the top. Also remove any volume spacers. If you take the cap off the top of the air side you may well see some blobs of grease down there too (the positive chamber) so that's a definite sign it needs doing.
I would clean it all out + service the lowers, remove volume spacers and then put all the settings back to what's recommended (30% sag is too much) and ride it a bit and go from there with the damper adjustments.
Coming from Rock Shox for 6 years, I found my 36’s a lot harsher on small bumps. Never really got around it with settings. They were amazing when pushed hard, which for me isn’t very often, but I don’t think they are really designed for pottering about on bridleways. At the first service I had a Luftkappe fitted which made it much nicer off the top, without blowing through travel. They also diagnosed a common issue with a damper spring being out of alignment and scraping on the damper shaft. This was replaced under warranty. The fork was much more to my taste after this (£200 worth of) work, but I still think they have a narrow sweet spot compared to Lyriks.
Selva Rs are the most underrated fork of well, a long time. Its unlikely you'll get the Fox to feel quite as plush as the Selva, but you should be able to get them to feel good - its a different good, but good none the less. It will always be a bit firmer off the top, thats the trade off for the support they give keeping you riding high.
I never gel with their forks at the mythical 20% sag - they don't have any magic in there compared to other brands, and given they are usually over damped (Based on where 90% of people end up on their settings) something a little softer does help.
If you are going to open them up remember its different oils in each leg, but I recently did my super Z and as I didnt have the 'correct' oil for the damper side, I just used some 3wt maxima as the effect will be to lighten the damping a touch over time if anything - not a bad thing. Lower service made a world of difference to the small bump.
too tight bushings
My first thought, but as others suggest - get a lowers service done in the first instance.
I am half minded to send both forks to a suspension place and ask them to service the 36 and adjust it to be as close as possible to the Selva.
Or just sell the Fox and buy another Selva? Or get a Z1 Coil for the eeb, if the spring weights suit you - ridiculously plush forks.
There seems to be no consistency when it comes to 36s from the factory, or when serviced professionally.
Want them to feel the same, service them yourself and control the amount of oil and grease.
Z1 Coil is super supple off the top in the way no air 36 is… but I think the 36 can be set up to better use the full travel (although all these Fox based forks seem to force a bit of a compromise between using all the travel and having mid stroke support).
Selvia doesn’t have a competitor when it comes to getting things set up just as you like it on your own… it’s very much one of a kind.
Have you tried the Selva coil Kelvin?
Nope!
Would love to. And the shock.
On my current bike I have Selva C after trying DVO Diamond after I did not get on with original Fox 36 Grip VVC.
Three years and three forks on same bike and it should be sorted now. And third shock too, although Kitsuma Air is slightly overkill on 140mm rear travel bike.
Nope!
Would love to. And the shock.
Yeah me too.
I have the Mod coil shock and it's very good, swapped to the soft compression widget to suit my frame much better.
I’d do a lowers and air spring service to start with.
I'll probably do this, thanks. Bloody annoying after a raft of issues arising from bike shop tardiness.
Or just sell the Fox and buy another Selva?
I don't really fancy dropping £1170 and getting £500 for a nearly new fork right now, just after buying a new bike and forking out an extra £70 for a QR axle. One reason I chose the spec level of the bike was to get this fork rather than they Rhythm.
That said, I'd recommend "replace with Selva R" to anyone not fully satisfied with their fork. Glad I did that before sinking any money into my RockShox Pike.
I had them checked - too much grease in negative chamber, but bushings were fine, also they bled the damper.
They don't seem to be any better, well I can't do a back to back test anyway.
Brutal on my hands on this track at 30kph/18mph, tried all sorts of settings. Best I got to was 70psi (less and more is worse), rebound -8L/-7H (a bit fast), LSC and HSC full open. Used 120mm of travel which is about what I'd expect.
It's perfectly fine on my normal bike - Selva R, same tyre (Wild Enduro Front Competition Line), 20psi (21psi on the eBike), same insert (Rimpact Original), Pro4/XM481 (Mavic E-Deemax SL o the eBike).
My suspension guy was saying (not about this particular track) I'm running tyres that are too undamped, too low pressure, and the ground/stones may be hitting the insert.
On the MTB$ forum there are a few threads about harshness in the Grip2 damper, which is funny as it was the best damper ever before the Grip X2 came out.
I think the consensus is that you need to be careful not to understand pressure them in the hope if staying supple.
Rebound as fast as you can get away with as the rebound circuit causes the mud valve to big down.
MRP now make a replacement cartridge, avalanche do a custom open bath damper and shock works in NZ offer an "unharsh" tune to address the midvalve issue.
There are a couple of compression upgrades but they will be of limited use if you believe that the main issue is the midvalve.
As someone who has come from a bike with Selvas (first R then C) and absolutely adored them, I was super sceptical about getting a new bike with Fox 36s as I'd never used them before and I thought the Selvas were incredible (they really are).
Before even fitting the 36s to my new frame I got them professionally serviced by Sprung, as well as putting in a factory tune as they said the stock tune wasn't that good. On top of that I got a second hand Luftkappe for cheap and got that installed as well, and I have been really pleasantly surprised with them. Honestly I think they are just as good as my Selvas were now, and a little quieter too.
I think you need to go out with some mates, swap bikes to test and get some other opinions - and it'd be particularly handy if any of them had a 36 with the Grip 2.
Interesting! I got the Factory Grip2 to "upgrade" the much derided Yaris on my ebike. The Yaris felt far smoother, was thinking of putting them back on! I guess a service wouldn't be a bad idea. Reluctant to splash out another £150+ for a Luftkappe and the tools...
Reluctant to splash out another £150+ for aLuftkappe and the tools...
TruTune widgets are an easier (and cheaper?) alternative to Luftkappe.
I haven't tried them on the same fork but the TruTune has knocked my socks off on my Zeb, whereas the Luftkappe was merely quite good on a Pike (years ago).
How much do you weigh?
70 psi suggests not a huge amount which makes me think (contrary to your suspension guy) - your tyre pressures are pretty high! 21 psi, with an XM481 rim AND an insert? I've no experience of the Michelin tyres to know what they feel like.
I weight 80kg, and on the front of my ebike is also a 36 Grip 2 - also an XM481 rim, a Schwalbe Super Trail casing tyre but no insert and I run 18psi . Thats considerably softer than 21 psi - I know for a fact that if I ran 21 psi my hands would be feeling it.
I'm no loic bruni but I'm not pootling either, thats for proper enduro lines, rocky stuff etc.
Maybe try it without an insert? That's ~200g of unsprung weight hammering around on the end of the fork.
My 36 thoughts for the lighter rider.... GRIP damper is just open up and ride... GRIP2 damper needs some work to set up correctly for your weight. Fully cleaned up and correct oil volumes and grease makes all the difference. Take the air spring out for a clean and regrease, don't just drop the lowers. Oh, and air pressure is alway lower than Fox recommends, by a lot. No tokens for wee guys.
I think the consensus is that you need to be careful not to understand pressure them in the hope if staying supple.
Yep, learnt that lesson with my Pike.
Rebound as fast as you can get away with as the rebound circuit causes the mud valve to big down.
I did notice in repeated runs on that section of track that rebound a bit faster than recommended was more comfortable and used less travel, presumably keeping it higher in the travel where the spring rate is lower.
How much do you weigh?
75kg plus kit.
70 psi suggests not a huge amount which makes me think (contrary to your suspension guy) - your tyre pressures are pretty high! 21 psi, with an XM481 rim AND an insert? I've no experience of the Michelin tyres to know what they feel like.
Any less than 20 and they tend to burp sealant. There could be something in tyres, pressure, spoke tension, handlebar stiffness, but none of that feels like it's going to be enough to overcome the fork problem.
Can't advise on the 36s but I sympathise and share your pain - I'm in a similar situation with Mezzer Pros. Set #1 is on my Tallboy @ 140mm and feel sublime, but set #2 are on my Heckler SL @ 170mm and no matter what I do I can't (so far) replicate the feeling. Set #1 came on the bike bought secondhand from an ex-WC DHer so I wonder if they've had some fancy internal tweaking to the shim stack or something. Set #2 do still feel good but compared to my other set they're a disappointment!
^ There is very long thread at MTBR about Mezzer Pro and it seems that they need couple of minor customisations to perform at their best. Very interesting fork as alternative to RS and Fox but I really didn’t want to play with three air chambers during winter rides, thus went to Selva C.
Also worth noting that there was Grip 2 and Grip 2 VVC, latter has had more problems with inconsistent damping performance.
I can hardly wait for next generation of Fox dampers which will improve most shortcomings of current ones and have problems of their own.
I'm really frustrated with Fox for exactly that reason. Their dampers are awesome until the next version comes out.
I remember Steve from Vorsprung comparing two fox damper and the maximum compression of one was twice that if the other. He asked the valid question, how can you claim to be refining products if you've not even worked out what ball park to put the adjustments in.
^ There is very long thread at MTBR about Mezzer Pro and it seems that they need couple of minor customisations to perform at their best. Very interesting fork as alternative to RS and Fox but I really didn’t want to play with three air chambers during winter rides, thus went to Selva C.
Thanks, I'm aware of those (proper epic length threads!). Slowly working my way through changes but what I really need to know is what's been done internally - if anything - to my 'good' fork, before I can attempt to replicate it fully with the not-so-good fork.
Rebound as fast as you can get away with as the rebound circuit causes the mud valve to big down.
Looking into what this means, I found that more LSR causes more LSC. I can actually feel it and measure it comparing LSR open vs. closed by pushing down the fork stationary. Wasn't expecting that.
TruTune widgets are an easier (and cheaper?) alternative to Luftkappe
Great recommendation, cheers!
Not ridden in anger yet, but immediately (just fitted to try it, not serviced or anything) feels like a different fork. So smooth and plush on a quick test. Excellent!
Rebound as fast as you can get away with as the rebound circuit causes the mud valve to big down.
Looking into what this means, I found that more LSR causes more LSC. I can actually feel it and measure it comparing LSR open vs. closed by pushing down the fork stationary. Wasn't expecting that.
Tried that, doesn't seem any better although it was just during a ride rather than a repeated test.
I'm think I'll take both bikes somewhere to test back to back, to check I'm not imagining things. Or I wonder if those first few weeks with the 36s and evening pains some days have caused me to become more sensitive now.