[Closed] Flats curious, a few q's

No - but then I don't think I've ever done an offroad 30 miler ! (100' per mile though, yes, easily, more like 150'+ here in Calderdale)

Rarely snag a shin.

But I've used flats for years.

If you're going to try it I would suggest good pedals and shoes (stiff but grippy), something better than V8's and hiking boots.

My riding is more what you might call off road rambling, but with the odd bit of tech thrown in. Ideal ride is 30+ miles of remote Scottish mountain. I much prefer flats, but I think it's mostly psychological. That ability to get a foot down in an emergency and get started again easily is part of it, but mainly it's just going out in normal(ish) shoes.

I've ridden clipped in on the road bike pretty much since the first SPDs were released and have tried it off road a few times. But try as I might I can't detect this supposed improvement in efficiency. According to Strava my times up climbs are no better and I feel less confident coming back down (so tend to go slower), although that would no doubt improve with practice.

As roverpig has said, personally I don't notice too much of a loss in efficiency. All my mtb rides are on flats, I am much more confident going downhill on them and have done several longer rides (40+ miles) without problem.

The main problem in my opinion is that I have yet to come across a flat pedal shoe that combines the pedal grip and feel of a fiveten freerider, with good walking grip for the hike-a-bike sections, and good weatherproofing and quick drying. Moon on a stick perhaps.

Anyone use flats for long distance off road rides?

its the long rides that keep me on flats more than anything, I get sore knees and being able to change position and shift stresses is very helpful for me. Never been bothered about lack of efficiency. I'd be surprised if it's slowed me down very much at all, and if you take into account that I'm probably able to ride further and more often, the balance is definitely positive!

last year I went from using SPDs with stiff soled xc shoes and M530 pedals to flats and Terrex shoes. Climbing still feels a bit more effortful to me on the flats but I like them on the trickier stuff. I have been looking at the newer big flat pedals with clips though, curious to see if they offer a decent compromise.

My largest off road ride (natrual trails & hike-a-bike) in flats was 158 miles.  My largest trail center ride in flats (mainly Red) was 88 miles.  I don't wear shin pads - you'll soon learn how not to hit yourself with the pins 🙂

Get some decent shoes - I use five-tens but other brands probably exist.  I spent a winter switching between flats and SPDs on my turbo and didn't notice any difference in my results.  I did get sore calves and knees though so I've switched back to flats permanently.

Anyone use flats for long distance off road rides?

Sam Hill? He seems to get on ok.

I've never ever tried clipped in. With good pedals and shoes it makes a big difference.

I have never run clipless, always flats. I ride MTB (TR Scout) and have a Kona CX bike I use both bikes for commuting, long XC rides and 'Bridleway bashing' as well as trail centres and general bikey fun where I can get it.

I am 46 years old and my shins are fine. I use Hope flats but have used many platforms in the past. Yes I have scars from my youthful BMX days (beartrap pedals) and had the occasional slap from a platform over the years.

I don't compete and purely ride for fun but have never felt the need to go clipless. I have been lectured on the efficiency benefits that I am missing out on many times, but I don't tend to get dropped on group rides. In fact most of my mates are late to the MTB party so they tend to let me lead rides anyway. Not cause I'm any faster mind.

If you get the combo of sole and pedal right, you’re unlikely to suffer many shinburgers.  Personally, I found my shins greatly appreciated me abandoning V8’s but ymmv.   Five tens are boring and the predictable recommend, but they do take some beating as a flat pedal shoe.

Yes, it's no problem riding just as far on flats as you would on clipless. Shins? I've got just as many marks from spds as flats. The need for extra protection just because of another kind of pedal is overstated and likely comes from people just using crappy pedals and shoes.

my calves ache the next day though as out of the saddle all day perched on my cleats.

Sounds like you might need to relax a bit. Calves hurting sounds like you were holding your heals up? No need to do that on clips or flats, bendy ankles helps with bumps absorption too

I don't think that you need to worry too much about your shins with modern pedals / shoes - I have a few scars from my Azonic A Frame and skate shoe days, but Five Tens etc offer so much grip that it's much less of an issue. I still catch a leg occaisionally pushing up stuff but not so much riding.

I've yet to find a shoe that matches Five Tens for grip.

Yes, flats and skate shoes* for everything from short blasts out to 70-odd mile round trips to my mam's and back, with DH races and popping to the shops in between. Never tried SPuDs & don't really fancy it.

* which I use for general mooching about in as well.

The need for extra protection just because of another kind of pedal is overstated and likely comes from people just using crappy pedals and shoes.

Yep, that.

I have used flats only for years. And whenever I go out with molgrips, it means riding a long way around South Wales with a mix of single track and fire road stuff, and although it has been said that I might be more efficient on climbs with clipless, I have never felt I was on the wrong thing by using flats.

Well I've used both, and I find flats to be good for technical stuff of course but they feel far less efficient for longer rides.  I can't use the efficient spinning pedalling that I'd do on road because that requires pulling up on the pedals which doesn't work on flats.

The people who say they've never tried one or the other aren't really qualified to answer the question tbh.  I think that if you're pedalling on flats you're less efficient.  You might not care, and it might be worth it in the tech stuff, but I still think you're less efficient.

I have been riding only with flats for the last 9 years. Before that I used to mix it up depending on what and where I was riding.

And yes, done many a long day with flats.

I guided transalp tours from Bavaria to Lago di Garda or Lago di Como for three years each summer riding with flats. Anything between 70-95km and 1500-2500m of climbing a day for a week at a time. Never felt like I was missing anything. It also meant I could wear some funky shoes and walk to the bar in style... 😉

Oh, and even with 5:10s you can shin yourself. Done it the other week. Currently cultivating the scar by picking off the scab every other day.

Hasn't the pulling up thing been shown to be a myth? I can't recall the details but I'm sure there was some study that showed even top pros don't actually pull up. They do unweight the pedal on the upstroke but if I remember correctly there was no upward force being applied. I think any extra efficiency comes from the fact that the sole can be made stiffer with a clipless shoe. As I said earlier, I did a few (Strava) tests and couldn't detect any improvement in climbing times with spds compared with five tens, but that was using an old pair of "touring" shoes that are a lot more flexible than my road shoes, for example.

I am happy riding both.

IMO there are two things that SPDs beat flats for and that's the ability to have overshoes/winter specific waterproof boots when the weather is absolutely awful and at the other end of the spectrum is the well ventilated disco slipper for the hottest of summer days.

Waterproof socks and 5-10s are good but only if you have leggings that stop water running in and down the sock tops.

Flats are better for pub stops, get on and ride use and bailing out!

Happily swap backward and forward as the mood takes me. Whatever you can do on one you can do on the other if you're a normal xc/trail kind of rider.

I don't wear pads.

I used SPD since the 90's but after being getting back into biking I could not get on with SPD again. Just killed my confidence.

Tried flats as an experiment and would never go back to SPD again.

With some 5/10s they are great!

You can just grab the bike for a poodle around and just jump straight on which I like too.

Anyone use flats for long distance off road rides? is it just a “adaptation” to riding style that’s required?

Always. I don't like being attached to a lump of metal. I don't know if it's an adaptation, but my riding position is set so my weight goes through my feet with very little on the saddle or the bars (singlespeed).

I do find spinning fast on my fixed wheel can get a bit fraught, and I'd be better off strapping in for that, but that's the only circumstance I'd attach myself to a bike.

I'm also very sceptical of the benefits of clipping in for the average rider. Highly trained pros obviously get a benefit otherwise they wouldn't do it. I'm not a highly trained pro (just in case you were wondering 🙂 ).

Rode with SPD's for 25+ years . Been on flats for the last 3 years since I had hip problems . Nobody is winning Xc races on flats so I guess that they must be a bit less efficient . I have not become noticeably slower since switching and am still in the same place amongst my riding buddies . Five tens and Vaults for me and no shin damage as yet . The other thing that has made flats popular IMO is dropper posts , it makes such a difference to be able to drop your post even an inch which enables you to get your foot down in all sorts of circumstances . Negatives for me are the lack of a secant five ten winter shoe and the sheer physical size of flat pedals when riding through ruts , which are a common feature on the Isle of Man . Getting the rear wheel off the ground seemed like witchcraft at first but I got it mastered and at first I was pulling up on the pedal on steep climbs which meant that I just lifted my foot off the pedal . Hip issue is sorted now but I don't see me ever going back to SPD's . Long rides are no problem either .

I haven't ridden SPDs in well over a decade. I used them for a bit then twisted my knee in a crash and ditched them. The main benefit for me was staying connected to the bike over fast rough terrain, having your feet connected to the bike helps a lot with bike control.

I'm quite willing to believe that elite athletes can generate more power clipped in, but I'm skeptical that they benefit average riders much. I'd like to actually see some solid research showing the size of the claimed "greater efficiency" and also whether it makes any difference to endurance.

I used to do weekly 50 km to 70 km rides (20 km to 30 km riding on road to the hills, then 10 km or so off-road). That would take 4 to 6 hours. I can't go flat out for that long, so the limiting factor was energy stores and replenishment, not peak power. I don't see how generating more power clipped in will help on a long ride if you have to back off to 90% to conserve enough energy to finish the ride. If anyone can point to any solid research on this, I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I suspect that the supposed efficiency gains just come from an assumption that everybody should just copy what elite athletes do.

I ride both - SPDs on my singlespeed, rigid mtb and road bike, flats on full sus and fatty.

These days I prefer flats for mucking about but I do feel spds are more efficient for pedaling (happy to admit this may be placebo) and definitely prefer them for SS when gurning up a steep hill at max heart rate.

Flats can help improve technique, both by forcing you to work out how to lift the wheels without pulling up and by giving more confidence when manualling etc. However, ehen I first tried them I noticed I was dabbing at points where I’d have just pushed on through when clipped in, so it can maybe go both ways.

I get more pedal strikes with flats and I’ve had to get a boot dryer because Five tens are made of sponge.

having your feet connected to the bike helps a lot with bike control.

Just like a FS forgives dodgy line choices and weakness...

[img] [/img]

edit- I added that smiley gif thinger in case anybody missed the fact I was trying to be funny with that quotey comment 😀

Anyone use flats for long distance off road rides? is it just a “adaptation” to riding style that’s required?

Yes and yes.

Maybe get some bike-specific flat shoes.

Hasn’t the pulling up thing been shown to be a myth? I can’t recall the details but I’m sure there was some study that showed even top pros don’t actually pull up.

Well I can only speak from personal experience.  I try and pedal in circles, and I use a reasonable cadence on road.  If I try to pedal like that on flats, my feet get very light on the pedals and hence insecure.  Not so much of an issue mashing up steep climbs, but when trying to spin in what I would consider an efficient manner, it's difficult. If you don't care about it then fine, if you are just winching up steep stuff then chucking yourself down it then it probably doesn't matter.  But I would not want to choose flats for a long ride in the hills for this reason. If your clipped-in technique is not like mine then also it won't matter.

I don’t see how generating more power clipped in will help on a long ride if you have to back off to 90% to conserve enough energy to finish the ride.

It's not about maximum power, it's about efficiency - getting more forward motion for the same physical effort.  This is why I wouldn't want to use them on a long ride if I was doing anything other than mucking about.

I think any extra efficiency comes from the fact that the sole can be made stiffer with a clipless shoe

I think this is probably a factor too. I use XC racer style SPD shoes which may help.  I also think that a stiffer soled flat shoe is going to offer less feel and control, so there's a trade-off to be made with flats.

It’s not about maximum power, it’s about efficiency – getting more forward motion for the same physical effort.

The point is that there doesn't actually seem to be real research on whether that is true. Lots of people say it's true, but it's not something you can actually know without doing proper research.

“If I try to pedal like that on flats, my feet get very light on the pedals and hence insecure.”

Sounds like you need to get better at pedalling, sorry.

The point is that there doesn’t actually seem to be real research on whether that is true. Lots of people say it’s true, but it’s not something you can actually know without doing proper research.

No, but in the absence of proper research, we can only go on our own findings for the way we ride.  And proper research often doesn't apply to specific individuals.  For example, if you pedal in the same way on flats or SPDs you are less likely to notice a difference.

I switched to SPDs after riding flats for 15years-ish, I didnt find any gains in pedaling up hills or notice being able to pull up aiding me. Although I took my BMX to the local racetrack a few weeks ago and to start with I kept pulling my feet off my pedal on the up stroke, not sure if this proves anything or just that I have become used to the motion.

I find SPD's good at the top of a run, so I dont have to wiggle my foot around to find the sweet spot on the pedal and also when trying to charge tech or rough trails as it stops my feet bouncing off the pedals or moving from the sweet spot.

With regards to flats and longer rides, I used to find my foot would almost feel like it was cramping during longer rides on flat pedals with my fivetens. If i was to go back I'd def get a stiffer soled shoe.

I've been mostly on flats for 25 or so years and ridden various distances and styles from 24/12 solo to downhill in the alps. I tried clipping in a few times but never felt in control on them, i'm much happier on flats, decent shoes and pedals are the key. Currently I am using OWN FR01 shoes and Deity Decoy pedals.

That's interesting, but it raises a whole load more questions.

His HR was higher with the clipless pedals but VO2 lower.  So what does that mean? Perhaps he is utilising more muscles by 'pedalling circles' but each muscle working less?  Not sure.  But RPE was higher which is also interesting.

Another thing to note is that is on a reasonable climb at a fairly high wattage.  I notice flats more whilst spinning along on flat or more gentle gradients.  I think it would be worth testing under different gradients and loads.

And he's still using stiff soled shoes for the flat pedal test which is not practical in real life.  But then, they weren't actually testing flats vs SPDs for MTBers. I'd like to see them do it again with 5.10s

I switched to SPDs after riding flats for 15years-ish, I didnt find any gains in pedaling up hills or notice being able to pull up aiding me.

I wouldn't expect that in your case, because you'd probably pedal the same way as with flats. I think you have to learn the pedalling circles thing, and if you've spent time on road focusing on efficiency you would.  I think SPDs for off-road exist because roadies came to MTBing and it felt weird and slow without them.  Or because XC whippet racers also pedal lots of road miles.

I’ve never seen any convincing studies showing an efficiency gain with clips - but there’s a ton of anecdotal evidence suggesting that riders are VERY good at convincing themselves that flats are harder work than clips.

Pulling up when pedalling isn’t beneficial (and rarely occurs) because the human leg is not built for pulling - millennia of evolution for walking and running has made them to push. People think they’re pulling up with clips when they’re actually just unweighting better - which can be achieved with flats if you have good technique.

in the absence of proper research, we can only go on our own findings for the way we ride.

This used to be the thing with XC suspension bikes and wider tyres. Nearly everyone believed that hardtails and skinny tyres pumped up super hard must be faster because they felt that way. Once people actually checked against a stopwatch, the conventional wisdom was found to be quite wrong.

I’ve never seen any convincing studies showing an efficiency gain with clips – but there’s a ton of anecdotal evidence suggesting that riders are VERY good at convincing themselves that flats are harder work than clips.

Or you're just good at convincing yourself that everyone's a gullible idiot except you.  If you are really reading the science properly you will look for flaws or things it doesn't address (as another scientist would).  You should not simply dismiss a large body of anecdotal evidence as people being stupid.  Something is clearly going on, but you need to devise the right study to find out what.

because the human leg is not built for pulling – millennia of evolution for walking and running has made them to push.

Your body has to pull the leg back every stride when running.  This is a similar motion.

Anyway - pulling up or unweighting aside - the shoe stiffness issue is real, no?  And not addressed in the GCN video up there ^^^

Your body pulls the foot backwards, yes - and you can absolutely do that on flats. It’s the vertical upwards component of the forces that I’m talking about being unbeneficial.

Regarding shoe stiffness, I ride fairly stiff flats and pedal with the axle behind the ball of my foot. I can see skate shoes and pedal under toes putting greater demands on the foot to support the pedalling load.

The audio field I work in is FULL of large bodies of people generating flawed anecdotal evidence to support their incorrect suppositions.

It isn’t that I believe clips have no advantages over flats but I do believe the power and efficiency gains to be very very marginal - worthwhile for professional competition but vanishingly small for amateurs.

You should not simply dismiss a large body of anecdotal evidence as people being stupid. Something is clearly going on, but you need to devise the right study to find out what.

I think everyone is in agreement here: the evidence for clipless being more efficient is anecdotal and the issue won't be resolved without properly designed empirical research. In the interim, the scientific thing to do is to report that we don't really know if clipless are more efficient, for whom, and under what conditions. Also, if people enjoy riding their bike, they should keep doing what they're doing.

I do believe the power and efficiency gains to be very very marginal – worthwhile for professional competition but vanishingly small for amateurs.

Sure, in terms of overall performance gain - but as amateurs we aren't interested in our times, we're interested in how we feel.  And inefficiecny can feel bad to some of us.  If you are one of these people then you've not got much to lose by choosing SPDs.

The only thing for the OP to do is try flats for him/herself, of course.  Since feel and enjoyment is all that matters.  I feel less efficient and worse climbing on flats, so that's why use SPDs on long rides.  I have been using SPDs on my big bike but now I think I will go back to flats there to explore some steeper stuff that I've recently found where I think there'll be a benefit.

as amateurs we aren’t interested in our times

Guess you aren't familiar with a website called Strava.

Forgot to add earlier.

I find flats to be far kinder to my dodgy knee, that and an Oval chainring now allow me to ride with virtually zero ache in my right knee.

No matter which spds/adjustments I made to them I could never stop the knee pain, perhaps as I was pulling up with the leg, who knows?

Guess you aren’t familiar with a website called Strava.

Haha.. you must be new here.

"  You might not care, and it might be worth it in the tech stuff, but I still think you’re less efficient."

I do aswell, I know again it's only anecdotal but I'm very sensitive to my power output. I never bimble and usually tend to ride at a given pace and cadence.
Riding a lap of say Cwmcarn, I'll be more tired with flats than clips. It's not loads but I can feel it.

I wouldn’t expect that in your case, because you’d probably pedal the same way as with flats. I think you have to learn the pedalling circles thing, and if you’ve spent time on road focusing on efficiency you would.  I think SPDs for off-road exist because roadies came to MTBing and it felt weird and slow without them.  Or because XC whippet racers also pedal lots of road miles.

I spent decades with SPD's and found it hard going to flats at first... in retrospect because I was using crap shoes and crap flat pedals. Switching to Five 10's and getting rid of the Saint pedals for something more aggressive not only made the whole thing work but I stopped getting any pins in my shins.  Since then my trail bike has been exclusively flats.  It's fine for Afan... if anything I'd miss the XC HT on the climbs more than the SPD's... and then be happy I took the trail bike once I'm defending.

Until a couple of weeks ago my Carbon XC HT had SPD's... they were 20yrs old and needed a service and rusted together and I didn't actually get round to finishing so I now have flats on that as well.

I've also got an oval chainring which may (seems to me) to remove or minimise any perceived pedal inefficiency from flats and very much seems to help on grip on really steep stuff.

I wouldn’t expect that in your case, because you’d probably pedal the same way as with flats. I think you have to learn the pedalling circles thing, and if you’ve spent time on road focusing on efficiency you would.  I think SPDs for off-road exist because roadies came to MTBing and it felt weird and slow without them.  Or because XC whippet racers also pedal lots of road miles.

I did omit that I have spent several years commuting to work (dont really count it as riding) on Roadie SPD's and can pedal in circles fine, I'm also a spinner as opposed to grinder when in the saddle, so focus more on pedaling smoothly instead of thrashing. I use the watt bike at the gym now and again and get a lovely peanut shape.

I'm sure it was muscle memory that caused me to try and pull up, it only happened twice both times when going to start from a standstill, once pedaling, i noticed no difference.

For me I didnt switch to SPD for more power or efficinecy it was for the other reasons mentioned, I have noticed other improvements for me now being on SPD's. I am more committed to lines and getting through sections cleanly, I'm less likely to have a panic/wobble and chuck a foot out. I am also shifting my body weight better around the bike, really using my hips.

I do find the SPD's annoying for trying tricks though! Next time I go Woody or Windhill Ill chuck flats on to have a play!

I don't think that the shoe stiffness is particularly relevant , flat pedals are a lot bigger and so you don't need such a stiff sole . On SPD shoes you need stiff soles because all tyhe power is going through a tiny area of the shoe , around the cleat .

One nice thing about flats is I can walk out the door with whatever I happen to have on my feet ang go for a ride.

And it's one less thing to faff over. The K.I.S.S. principle.

One nice thing about flats is I can walk out the door with whatever I happen to have on my feet

Doesn't apply to me since that's usually socks 🙂

I don’t think that the shoe stiffness is particularly relevant , flat pedals are a lot bigger and so you don’t need such a stiff sole

I do - I have used skate shoes for flats, and they squirm around all over the place - my foot is longer than a flat pedal of course.  I've done back to back rides on the same trail on the same bike with flats and wondered why I'm so frigging tired and slow. so something is making it harder work.  I think this is a factor - less so with proper mtb shoes than skate shoes of course but still.

I may not have been slower (although I find this hard to believe without having timed it) but if I'm feeling slow and tired, I'm not really having a good time which is the point of the exercise after all.

As ever, there are folks that just need to convince that what they do is right, at the end of the day, it's what works for you, not anyone else.

The only thing I'd add is that to do it properly IMHO it can be quite an expensive experiment, ie cheap shitey shoes and flats don't really give a fair reflection, whereas a cheap pair of SPDs and shoes give more of an idea of what riding in those is like.

I rode SPD for years, prefered it really, but one solo puffer had my knee in bits, so decided to give flats a go, and committed a whole summer to decide. Don't notice any loss of efficiency, or any real benefit on descents either, other than the fact it's easier to bail, but I wouldn't go back to SPD now as no more knee pain.

One nice thing about flats is I can walk out the door with whatever I happen to have on my feet ang go for a ride.

And it’s one less thing to faff over. The K.I.S.S. principle.

Not only that I can drive in my flats as well...  part of that means I don't get home and leave them in the car wet and full of mud for next time (even if the car mat is filthy).  I don't forget my shoes... either.

SPDs on the road/commute

Flats off road

If I'm honest, I really don't notice the difference... Flats are great if you have good pedals and good shoes. Plus it's much easier to dab on sketchy sections

@nobeerinthefridge I thought the concensus of this thread that neither is really much better than the other.

"SPDs on the road/commute"

I've got a short commute with a lot of lights. Flats are quicker away in the traffic light drag race. I'm a hard pedal stroke ahead from the guy looking down/ pausing/ soft pedaling while he clips in.

And before you ask, the guy [s]trackstanding[/s] wrenching the bars from side to side while he slowly mangles the bike across the pedestrian crossing is either not looking or too out of shape to respond when the lights change, and the guy actually trackstanding is on a fixie, so he's not off the line that quickly either.

No girls, obviously. They're far too sensible for any of this nonsense. 🙂

I thought the concensus of this thread that neither is really much better than the other.

It's amusing that some people see not being tempted to put their foot down as an advantage of clipped in.. whereas those coming from clipped in see it as an advantage (on the whole)

I think the non-"actual cycling" advantages of flats [b]for me[/b] outweighs any perceived advantages of clips.

What really doesn't work is half serious single track and rubbish flats/pedals...
Either do it (or not) is my experience.... I was a committed SPDer.... and rubbish shoes/pedals just confirmed that for me. Switching to good shoes and pedals was honestly a revelation.... if I'm honest I felt a bit stupid in not committing to trying flats properly... not to mention some hairy moments resulting from not committing.

I suppose I come from a viewpoint of eschewing extras.

Eg, I don't need special shoes to ride my bike (or the special pedals), I don't need special underpants (chamois), I don't need a derailleur, etc etc.

If I was a highly trained pro, then obviously it would be different.

Simplicity in a bike and gear cuts out an awful out of faff and expense.

I'm going to side with molgrips on the stiff shoes thing.

Riding in cheap airwalk skate shoes I'd get sore, crampy arches after 10 miles and hot spots from where the pins were deforming the sole.

A pair of 5-10s later and I'm much comfier, no hot spots and definitely better pedalling.

It's not your Team Sky marginal gains thing it's more the difference between knocking a nail in with a hammer or a haddock (or perhaps a kids plastic hammer but haddock was funnier in my head).

With flats if I'm just riding down to town I wear whatever trainers I have on.

Anything longer distance 5/10's are used. Far more comfortable and much more grippy. I find the pins and platform can be felt through pliable trainers. Ok for a while, but a proper long ride, no thanks. 🙂

My 5/10's get worn all day sometimes as they are so damned comfortable to just walk around in.

My experience now I'm converted to flat pedals after using SPDs for 10 years:

* doesn't include bashing shins with flat pedals

* my feet cramp up going down steps if soles are too flimsy (i'm looking at you vans with your waffle grip)

* i prefer them to spd

* choice is limited for winter riding

If I was a highly trained pro, then obviously it would be different.

Meh.  This 'highly trained pro' stuff is passive aggressive and pointless.  I wear jeans in everyday life.  I'd get changed to play football, work on the car, go for a run, so why not get changed to go biking?  I've ridden plenty in jeans over the years, I chose to use biking gear because I find it much more comfortable.  Great if you don't, but you clearly don't have to be a pro seeking marginal gains to appreciate the comfort. Also my jeans would get pretty filthy.

And even if I were riding flats I'd not use my normal everyday shoes anyway.  You seem to forget that most of us don't share your style of riding epicyclo.  I'm happy you enjoy your riding that way, but diversity is good.

This ‘highly trained pro’ stuff is passive aggressive and pointless.

I disagree. I'm a moderately fit amateur, but pros are on a different planet fitness and skill wise. I do get changed to go biking, just not into gear that any pro athlete would wear in a race. Basing my equipment choices on what they do would be a huge mistake. It might be the case that SPDs would be more efficient for someone of my fitness level, but that needs to be shown empirically, not just based on an assumption that what works for a pro athlete must be better for everyone.

As a normal person, not racing or doing epic distance, it matters not one bit whether flats or spds are more efficient. You should ride the ones you want. Anything else is just incredibly stupid. And it's not like there's anything much else about mountain biking that's efficient

And to do that you've got to try them both- properly try, get good at them, use quality parts, be fair, and then decide.

So what are the decent but cheap flat  pedals to go for at the moment?Nukeproof neutron plastic ?  Or any other recommendations?

http://www.treadmtb.co.za/trying-to-pedal-in-circles-dont-bother/

https://www.gearandgrit.com/the-cycling-myth-that-wont-die-pedaling-circles/

https://roadcyclinguk.com/riding/bike-fitting-the-myth-of-the-upstroke.html#r5Ys2K7lsk6jboXA.97

http://www.over40cyclist.com/correct-pedalling-technique-part-2/

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wMgEBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA174&lpg=PA174&dq=pedaling+circles+myth+phil+burt&source=bl&ots=fGRFGxZzn3&sig=FAtdWDozqxQ0GrCK2njrnE2pGNc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHnLzv7qnZAhWTHsAKHZIXD3IQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=pedaling%20circles%20myth%20phil%20burt&f=false

I don’t agree with this whole “ spd’s make you more committed in technical sections” thing - I don’t find that I’m any more inclined to throw away a “comfort dab”with flats than with spd’s, on the basis that a technical section doesn’t count unless you clean it...

I haven't tried them specifically... however as I and others have said half doing it on flats is crap. (I may be paraphrasing)

What's just as important is what shoes you mate them with.

If you were a pro who uses flat's (Sam Hill or maybe Sam Hill) then you can probably get away with a lot less grip.

I use some Superstar Nano's ... (£50) with some Five 10's... with a mix of long and short pins the basic freerider five 10's are very good. The ones with the Mi6 sole have no movement at all... less than a SPD dialled to min. Your foot simply doesn't move unless you lift it..

If I was [b]only[/b] riding Mi6 soles I might shorten some pins... as the grip is absolute.

Also if you are moving over from clipped in then start with max grip and reduce it as you get comfortable.

It’s amusing that some people see not being tempted to put their foot down as an advantage of clipped in.

For me its a mindset thing, it makes me commit more. I prob wont explain it very well, but its very simiair to when I ride BMX, if i want to do the trick, transfer or grind I need to commit 100% to what I am doing, if you dont, generally it wont come off.

I always found with flats I would roll through sections almost looking to not commit and dab at the earliest stage, now I find the opposite. However this could also be  result of me improving as a MTB rider...or the SPD's forcing me to ride stuff without dabbing and thus improving, kinda jumping in the deep end approach. Who knows, I like em personally.

It might be the case that SPDs would be more efficient for someone of my fitness level, but that needs to be shown empirically,

No, you misunderstand.

I'm not choosing pro type gear (lycra, SPDs) because the pros use it and I think it'll make me faster.  I'm choosing it cos I've tried the options and it works for me, I like it.  For me, it's about comfort - it's comfortable for a pro to wear just as it's comfortable for me - it makes no difference that they are faster than me.  It doesn't need to be shown if they are faster - you just need to try both and use what you prefer.

What's nonsense is epicyclo's insinuation that anyone who does choose lycra or SPDs is vainly imitating pros to try and show off or in the assumption it'll make them quicker.  It's passive aggressive because of the suggestion of stupidity in that behaviour, and of superiority because he doesn't engage in it.

I wear lycra for some MTB and for road; I wear SPDs because I prefer pedalling in them.  I am however on the lookout for some flat pedal shoes, I'm looking to go back to flats again on one bike because I have recently explored a whole load of new trails where I think I'd really benefit.  It's not about what pros wear or what I think I look like.  I don't think I could name a single pro XC MTBer.

And on that subject - I bought a pair of 5.10s about ten years ago, one of their first models I think, and the fit was really wrong for me - too narrow and long.  I have a wide forefoot and narrow heel.  But 5.10 seems to be all there is - do they make different shapes of shoe?  What other manufacturers are there?  Seem to be very few.

For me its a mindset thing, it makes me commit more. I prob wont explain it very well, but its very simiair to when I ride BMX, if i want to do the trick, transfer or grind I need to commit 100% to what I am doing, if you dont, generally it wont come off.

I always found with flats I would roll through sections almost looking to not commit and dab at the earliest stage, now I find the opposite. However this could also be result of me improving as a MTB rider…or the SPD’s forcing me to ride stuff without dabbing and thus improving, kinda jumping in the deep end approach. Who knows, I like em personally.

Coming from SPD I feel a bit the other way .... which I thin just shows how its a mindset and what you are used to.

By "the other way" I mean I now commit to dab or plant on a turn etc. where I wouldn't before.
It actually took me quite a while after going flats to make this into a deliberate act but then I came from exactly the opposite direction than you.

The other part of my quote was really saying that both have benefits and the benefits seem to be more pronounced when you come from one side or the other to the opposite.

Another thing I found was after riding clips I'd obsess about pedal/foot position.
It took me a while to realise it's not the be all and end all but I'd be thinking and worrying about it instead of riding. (Especially if I was for example seasoning a feature.. I'd set off... then be unhappy with my foot position and spend the time rolling into a feature messing with my feet instead of preparing for the feature)

Re those two links - for me, pedalling circles isn't about pulling up on the pedals and generating actual upward force.  I focus on moving my feet forward and backwards in a circle, so slightly pushing forwards and the top and scooping round through the bottom.  This makes everything smoother for me, I don't bounce up and down on the tyres or shock, it feels much more comfortable, and it helps loads on tech sections.  I find tech climbing harder on flats.

With flats if I’m just riding down to town I wear whatever trainers I have on.

You can do likewise on clipless.

Lets face it there is no right or wrong in this debate. Both pedals have their pros and cons. Although I do miss on flats the ability on very steep slow stuff, to be able to pull right over the top, and I'm not the only one Wade Simmons has made similar comments, and he's a commited flat pedal user. But you have to weight that up against the pros on flats of being able to get off them a touch quicker.

Re those two links – for me, pedalling circles isn’t about pulling up on the pedals and generating actual upward force. I focus on moving my feet forward and backwards in a circle, so slightly pushing forwards and the top and scooping round through the bottom. This makes everything smoother for me, I don’t bounce up and down on the tyres or shock, it feels much more comfortable, and it helps loads on tech sections. I find tech climbing harder on flats.

Just curious, have you tried an oval chain-ring [b]with flats[/b]?
The second half sounds very like what I feel riding an oval with flats vs round with flats and also an area I initially found flats were less preferable to clipped in.

In contrast I didn't really feel benefit having the oval on my SPD pedalled bike.

No, I'm far too old fashioned for oval chanrings, but not old enough to have tried them first time around 🙂 (although they were still around on people's bikes, but had been discredited).  Interesting idea though, I can see how that might help.

I could convert my ancient Patriot to 1x, the bike would suit it.

But try as I might I can’t detect this supposed improvement in efficiency.

My experiences are similar (there is probably a bit of benefit in being attached to the pedal when sprinting hard but for normal riding, zero discernable difference). I'm used to spds off road and have nice warm winter boots, so use them for most stuff though.

molgrips

...What’s nonsense is epicyclo’s insinuation that anyone who does choose lycra or SPDs is vainly imitating pros to try and show off or in the assumption it’ll make them quicker.  It’s passive aggressive because of the suggestion of stupidity in that behaviour, and of superiority because he doesn’t engage in it.

I wear lycra for some MTB and for road; I wear SPDs because I prefer pedalling in them...

You're putting words in my mouth. There's a vast difference between thinking something is stupid and thinking it's unnecessary.

SPDs - I think they're of no value for ordinary riding and I have been saying that for years and been excoriated on STW several times for saying it.

The recent research quoted above validates my opinion. I can't see the point of having special shoes, and special pedals for something of negligible or no benefit to ordinary riding.

Note that I also said I think it is worthwhile using spds on my fixed wheel bike, so I am not totally opposed. However that's more to keep my feet on the pedals on bumpy high cadence descents than to gain a power advantage.

Lycra - I don't have a problem with lycra. There's plenty pics of me in lycra jerseys.

Chamois - I don't wear chamois because I don't see the point in it for the riding I do, and I have never used it even when doing back to back century days or 24 hour events. I do not get any problems with chafe or saddle sores.

My opinion is that chamois is something that benefits professional riders who spend extraordinary time in the saddle, day in, day out, spinning at a high cadence. I'm just an ordinary rider who doesn't do that, so for me it's unnecessary.

Not using these things means I can dress for the mountain, not the bike, which is an advantage in this climate and the places I take my bike.

You may differ, and that's your prerogative.

Adidas Terrex trail cross sl shoes are the bastard offspring of 510 and Adidas, stealth sole on something more trainery if your after something not 510 and possibly better for hikebike  🙂

CLipless does have a benefit over  when your traversing rough surfaces and likely to have your feet bounce off flats but spd do have it for the comedy gold.

I reminded myself today, extreme pedalling in circles is useful on a really muddy climb. Avoiding the peaks in torque maximises traction.

"mm93

So what are the decent but cheap flat pedals to go for at the moment?Nukeproof neutron plastic ? Or any other recommendations?"

I've owned some bloomin expensive flats but right now both my bikes have Nukeproof Horizon plastics on them- they're light, they're big enough, thin enough, tough enough and grippier than most. The Neutron isn't a bad pedal at all but imo it's not up to the same level

Northwind,thanks for the advice,

Been and bought the Nukeproof neutron/electron this afternoon though !l LOL.

To be honest I looked at both of the Nukeproof s side by side and couldn't see much difference at all, so decided to save the tenner 😀 Cheers.