[Closed] Flat pedal technique. Once more, with feeling (and pics)

get some Shimano AM41s, I found those teva's very skitty.

I think the problem is, you are leaning against a wall.

Beyond that, dropping the heels certainly helps, digging in through the feet and lower legs and also five-tens are pretty grippy with decent pedals. Not sure what the Tevas are like.

I think although as you say your heel lifts when you bend your knees, I think in a real situation you need to get off the back a bit more to charge through rough stuff. Otherwise, any large item trying to stop you will bounce you forward or take you over the bars. weight is back and pushing through the feet and through the bottom bracket.

Saying all that, my feet still bounce off the pedals despite the five-tens and grippy flats, makes it more interesting.

CBA reading all that ^^ (is it full of loads of typical STW overthinking?)

but your seat's too high, your bars too low and fork too long. seriously!

on a hardtail to keep your feet on over fast rough ground (that isn't steep) you don't really need to drop your heels, you simply need to position yourself lower and hold your feet in position with the rest of your body allowing you to do whatever you want with your feet.

HTH.

FWIW I never have a problem keeping my feet on the pedals with skate shoes and about 3 pedal pins. I purposely run un-grippy pedals as I like my feet in completely different positions for different things.

Oh.. and get rid of that stupid bent seatpost too

just rode the peaks on flats and didn't have this problem. the first day i was bombing the rocks all relaxed like too (on a short travel FS bike, hardtail may be trickier..). doesn't help sorry.
maybe not grippy enough shoes.. with AM41 and Kona WahWahs, my feet cannot slide, have to be picked up to move them.

dunno. but my mate who is rapid on a hardtail does it by not being on the ground very much.

i think you might be over analysing it....

getting your heels down us as equally important as getting loose. those knees and elbows of yours don't have to stay in motionless throughout the descent, in fact it should be exactly the opposite to that as you absorb as much of the hits from lumps and bumps on the ground.

edit: ^^ goes for riding in clips also.

my feet are more forwards than that - axle in middle of foot. Move your brake levers up a bit so your weight is more back, body centre over bb

In the sort of terrain you describe, I'd have my feet further forward on the pedals (as cruzheckler says).

Your body position also looks pretty high and, for the terrain you're talking about, a bit forward - although I suspect that the position you're in in the photos isn't very realistic.

more weight in the feet, less in the hands

more weight in the feet, less in the hands

Simple - try a dual ply rear run soft to create an inch or two of travel, plus Five Ten Impacts. Rest is down to you.

I'm no expert but your hips look way too high and too far forwards. I was one of the small proportion on hardtails on the Enduro1 race yesterday and although that's not a rocky area some of the trails in the FoD are fairly bumpy. I can't remember the last time I lost my footing on a descent and I have a messed up, restricted movement, right ankle with metalwork in it.

I think your analysing it well - thinking about it properly etc.

I would suggest your problems will go away if you were clipped in. You sound like you know what your doing, so give some thought as to why clipping in will be a disadvantage to you.

I dont think it will, more likely the problems you have will be cured. What would happen if you stayed clipped in that would be a disadvantage ?

Afterall, you can unclip in the blink of an eye and keeping your weight on the pedals gives better control - its hard to see why you would take a foot off.

Used to have the exact same happen to rear foot on same terrain when I got back into biking years ago. Does not happen at all now. I think the reason is that I am far more animated on the bike, more relaxed and work with the terrain. Get a video of yourself riding this type of stuff and you will probably find you are nowhere near the position you think you are in. I used to think I was in a good position and moving around - I simply wasn't.

Must mention - I am still nothing special on a bike but this does not happen and I got between flats and clips a lot. You are decoupling from the pedals by not working with the terrain/bike.

from what I can see

feet need to be over the arch more. so you can almost bend your whole foot over the pedal.

GW does talk a load of crap!

try riding with your right foot at the rear. you seem to have more flexion in your right, this is quite common.
you may benfit from rolling your controls back slightly, go slow with this and see how you feel but putting levers slighty more horizontal will roll your wrists back.

it may feel strange at first to be leading with your weaker foot but it should enable you to keep weight low and back for faster more controlled descents.

So all the people saying "more weight on the pedals". How? Hang off the back of the bike? How do you then get front wheel grip? And anyway on a hardtail I want my weight further forward on my arms to work the fork, less on the back wheel so it skims over the rocks easier and doesn't hang up on stuff and pinch flat.

I've nver got the "pedal under arch of foot" thing. a) it screams "WRONG" at me from a feel point of view (yes I know I can probably get used to it), but more importantly it robs me of any flexibility through my ankles. I lose maybe 2" of travel, moving my foot forward 2" on the pedal. Absolutely hate it - feels like I've lost all control of the bike. (FWIW I *do* have my feet further forward than I would if I was riding clips). How's it supposed to work/help?

Trimix - I do ride clips, maybe 50% of the time.

Part of the reason for persevering with flats is that I still haven't mastered them yet, the rest is nothing to do with *un*clipping, its everything to do with getting clipped back in again in a hurry on some steep slippy rooty mess when there's a corner coming that's the opposite way to the one you've just unclipped for!

Don't know why your foot position should affect ankle flex?

I really do think part of your issue (in those photos at least) is that you're standing too high. Get your backside down hovering around where your saddle is in the pics.

if you are hanging off the back, you don't need front wheel grip.

not weight back - weight central over bb

When I went from Clips to flats, I was keeping my foot position the same until I forced a change

I would move your feet forward a bit like others have said. It feels "wrong" but it works. As well as dropping your heels its good to push with your feet (and hands)

I might get flamed for this but are your brakes set a bit low?. If you can rotate your wrists down a bit it might bring your body down . You seem to be standing quite tall.

I would guess if you try to "fix" this with clips with will be you and the bike decoupling from the ground instead of just you from the pedals. If you stay on and are happy then all good.

Suprised you don't feel like your going over the bars all the time with so much motivation to weight the bars and unbalance the bike just because it is a hardtail.

So all the people saying "more weight on the pedals". How? Hang off the back of the bike? How do you then get front wheel grip? And anyway on a hardtail I want my weight further forward on my arms to work the fork, less on the back wheel so it skims over the rocks easier and doesn't hang up on stuff and pinch flat.

This requires a cup of tea, a lengthy discussion followed by putting it into action with a watchful eye.

See where his weight bias is on anything rough (not the best video)-

Compare his body position to your photos.

stop leaning over the front "working" the fork expecting the rear to skip over everything and learn to skim the front wheel over rough ground with less weight over the front (kinda like manualling). ride the rear wheel more and use the foot and a half of rear suspension in your legs properly.

slam the fork and the saddle and you'll find both of the above easier.

Stretching. Cyclists tend to have shortened hamstrings. Stretch after you ride,

irritating video [url=

APF

GW actually summed it up supremely.

And for balance weight forward 🙂

Having your arch over the axle allows you to wrap your foot more around the pedal.

That was the exact advice I got from Ed Oxley and it works for me.

another thing..

Riding flat pedals requires a different approach to reading the terrain ahead to riding SPDs.

switching back and forth probably isn't doing you any favours.

Thank you Dean 😀
(can't watch your Video tho)

More weight on the pedals = balance your body so that your weight is directly over them. Drop your hips down and back, and let your body bend forwards so your shoulders are low and forwards. If you weight is entirely through your bottom bracket then your front wheel should have enough grip (~40/60 dist F/R). If you understeer then weight the bars when you corner and then get back to light hands, heavy feet once the apex is past. Note, not an expert, just a fairly smooth flats-only rider, who's spent way too much time reading/thinking about this stuff.

Don't know why your foot position should affect ankle flex?

if you are hanging off the back, you don't need front wheel grip

I'd actually say I'm pretty centred in the first 2 photos. Middle of torso over BB. Obviously if the ground was steeper I'd be further back.

Edit - OK, just watched the video - where was the rough ground? Stuff like that is easy peasy. Nothing to bother me there in the slightest.
It's this kind of stuff, flat out I struggle with.
[img] [/img]

I'll try weighting the back wheel more, but I must say I'm not convinced of the idea. I absolutely see it working on a full sus, but not on a hardtail. I just see hard impacts and pinch flats that way.

So how should technique change if you're riding spd's?

JonEdwards, that's why you have a suspension fork. Surprisingly, it is actually just as useful for extending out from the sag point to track terrain as it is recoiling to absorb it. You shouldn't need to push your fork to get grip, thats what the spring does.

If the bike is bouncing around underneath you, allow your legs to follow the terrain, by compressing and extending them... quite straight forward isn't it??

Perhaps you need to go on a skills course 😉

Just bought some flats, so I'm reading this with interest.

And spds/flats should make zero difference.

My vid was really to demonstrate a "strong" good body position, a basis to work from.

You need the strong position to be your natural one, don't even bother complicating things by trying to work out body position in these losing your feet scenarios if you don't have this sorted. It is normally around 40f/60r weight bias, with body position that is ready to shift. I would suggest this is right for the pic you put up. Slightly more front weight for turning, slightly more weight bias for solid hits rather than those loose stones.

The pictures you have up are a very poor riding position, try getting some pics where you're actually rolling around on tarmac or something. The "strong" position is the same regardless of terrain and surface, just modified slightly to account for adjustments.

My feet blow off when i'm in a weak position, as soon as i get back to a good position, problem solved. The weak position creeps in when i get scared.

These loose peaks gravel road descents are just about being really loose, getting in that strong body position and letting/trusting the bike to do what it wants.

Jon - at speed you shouldn't be steering shallow corners with by front wheel grip you should be doing it through weight shift. same with adjustments of line choice over fast rough terrain.

xiphon - I'd like to see you lift a flat pedal hardtail like you can when clipped in without first pre-loading the pedals.

GW - I can switch between flats and clips, yet the method remains the same. I don't rely on being 'clipped in' to lift the bike off the ground.... that's very poor technique.

This is all good reading:

http://www.leelikesbikes.com/foot-position-on-flat-pedals.html

http://www.leelikesbikes.com/flat-pedals-and-supple-feet.html#more-1420

http://www.leelikesbikes.com/foot-angle-on-flat-pedals.html#more-1344

http://www.leelikesbikes.com/flat-pedals-and-rim-tape-unrelated.html#more-1367

http://www.leelikesbikes.com/drops-staying-on-flat-pedals.html#more-259

http://www.leelikesbikes.com/rocking-the-flats.html#more-164

yeah you aren't pushing the front into corners like you do on smooth berms. on rough stuff like that, you're sorta twisting the bike with your hips and legs. at least i am.
also, more speed helps, above a certain speed things smooth out nicely 'cos the bike isn't falling into every crack. i had this down one day, then was rubbish the next because i was tired and tensed up.
i would not go back to spds, that just teaches you bad technique.

It doesn't affect flex, but it does affect travel

I'm still not sure why this should be the case? Why can you bend your ankle less with your foot an inch or two further back on the pedal? ❓

@ chiefgrooveguru

I like this quote from Lee

These days I focus on driving the net force—gravity, braking, impact, whatever—directly into the pedal spindle. (Remember, it’s all about heavy feet and light hands.) That’s working way better.

JonEdwards - Member

It's this kind of stuff, flat out I struggle with.

...(nice moody picture of a classic loose rocky peak district desent)...

i see your problem, you're riding one of the most boring trails in the world.

CGG - good links - especially the first one about foot position. That's exactly where I'm coming from.

ahwhiles what crap

if you are hanging off the back, you don't need front wheel grip.

I was informed by Rob Warner I was riding too far over the back once and to shift my weight forward and ride the front more.

Apparently, riding over the back is for mincers and is soooo 2001 :P. Aggressive and over the front Sam Hill style is where it's at.

Sam....on flats.

and at his all time best

All the back and forward weighting is very unbalanced. How about just going for the middle with weight through your pedals and keeping it there as you go up and down and round. Bend your arms and legs properly and get your face down into the action. Think yourself now gnarr'd

hang on was that kye forte on a 29er? the bmx world must be a shitload more accepting these days!

Mr Plow has it right.

The amount of times I've seen trail riders hanging over the back, hitting wet off camber roots and coming off beggars belief....as others have said....neutral body position is over the BB about 40 f 60 r

Move your weight around accordingly, some peoples styles are different though so just go with what works. Sam Hill rides flats, yet rides over the front more than a lot of other riders. Cedric Gracia appears to keep his arse over the back wheel a lot more.

If you push your hips back (and down a bit) and drop your shoulders down and forwards, your centre of gravity can remain in the same longitudinal position but it'll be lower, and because your hips are further behind your BB but closer to it vertically it'll be easier to drive all the forces (especially the critical impact ones) directly into the pedal spindles.

If I'd ridden that enduro yesterday with Sam Hill's body position but on my inferior bike and with my immeasurably vastly inferior skills I'd have pulled off a few corners quicker, had fewer moments of sketchy understeer, but also gone over the bars a few times!

Good point chief.

Another one I forgot to mention, having jumped on the slow rebound bandwagon that a lot of DHers are running.....I've started noticing how many trail riders run really really fast rebound to the point they are being bucked back and fourth on trails.

I wonder if this has something to do with some riders inability to get on with flats.

Bwarp - hence the word "if" 🙄

Warner was probably right

Slow rebound on the back of a hardtail? That's pure genius, even for here 😀

I wasn't talking about the OP. Just mentioned it as I'd seen a lot of it lately and I've seen a few thrown off their bikes because of it.

Smart arse. 👿

I prefer f39 + r61 myself...

So all the people saying "more weight on the pedals". How? Hang off the back of the bike? How do you then get front wheel grip?

Roughly speaking, if your hands are "weightless" on the bars, there is ~40% of your weight acting on the front wheel contact patch and 60% on the rear contact patch. I have been training myself to maintain this feeling of weightlessness on the hands and driving with my feet in most situations. source=Lopes/McCormack I think.

GW's remark about the long looking fork is interesting, and I'm half way to agreeing with him now [shock]. Looking at the photos, there seems to be too little sag. Sag-plus-rebound is needed to make the wheel track/grip properly. Why not increase sag and then whack-up the compression damping? You may find the improvement in grip and reduction in fork-dive really helps you stay on the pedals, and off the bars. Worth a try innit?

Good luck!

Possibly you are not putting enough weight on the foot which is wandering, i.e. you are riding with more weight on the "planted" foot, this may just be for brief period as you make an adjustment/ride a feature. I think the heel back angle thing is secondary. You might like to try swapping which foot you are leading with as an experiment.

So how do you pick anything approaching a line if the front wheel isn't weighted?

Turn from the hips, lean the bike, let the front wheel go where it naturally wants to go based on that lean and bodyweight shift. Only at low speed can you really pick a line with the front wheel, and at that speed grip shouldn't be an issue. But with all your weight in your feet then as long as you're not pulling up on the bars your front tyre has about 40% of your weight on it.

Im not reading all of this. But a quick look at the pictures tells me the position of your feet is bang out.

I tend to ride flats with my feet in the same position on the pedals as I would need them for doing any sort of stunt i.e. a hop/jump/manual etc. as this is where they feel comfiest and I feel safest/most confident. This seems to be somewhere in the middle of my foot.

You look like you have your feet in the same postion as you would when riding clips, i.e. on the ball of your foot.

Not got a lot else to add.

Hehe..I'm on that video!!

dt, maybe you should have read this link:> http://www.leelikesbikes.com/foot-position-on-flat-pedals.html

Not doubting your skills but you're neither Macaskill nor Lopes... 😉

It's the mudguard.

Yes, you're possibly best off ignoring my advice. I should aswell. I dont think I actual ride on the arch of my foot at all, I just looked at an old picture of me on the bike and thats where my feet were (they must have moved on the pedals)

I then sat on a bike and riding on the arch of your foot feels bizarre, just behind the ball feels right. (it still looks like your feet are too far forward on the pedals though, apart from in the theird picture maybe?)

I converted back to flats a few years ago, but still clip in for road rides. I'm also very familiar with the descents you're on about (the Houndkirk-Dore drop used to be on my work-home commute 😀 )

As it happens, I've recently given some tuition to someone who was having a very similar problem with their flat pedals. It's difficult to tell whether you have exactly the same problem without seeing you ride, but the photos give some clues - that a lot of people have already picked up/commented on.

Some experimentation might be required, but you could try:

Feet slightly further forward on pedals i.e. pedal axle in, or more towards, arch of foot (when descending rough ground)

Try getting your hips further back and chest lower - and keep them limbs 'soft' 😉

Try dropping the heel on you trailing foot more - might need apply slightly more weight to trailing foot to get same amount of drop as lead foot.

Equipment wise, I'm not a fan of the Tevas for flattie equipped hardtail on rough ground. I use AM41's a lot, but if I know I'm going down a rough Peak descent on my HT, I'll go for my 'clumper' 5.10 impacts, as the grip is better (also use 5.10 Barons which are v.good).

HTH

Jon, your feet look about 1/2" further back on the pedal than mine but it does depend on how much toe room there is in your shoes. Your saddle looks quite high for riding descents hard - if you can get your body lower then you can drive your weight into the pedals more effectively. I was using AM40s before, Teva Links now, not noticed a shortage of grip with either on Vaults.

Jon, your feet look about 1/2" further back on the pedal than mine but it does depend on how much toe room there is in your shoes. Your saddle looks quite high for riding descents hard - if you can get your body lower then you can drive your weight into the pedals more effectively.

NB - this is bad: "It sort of works, other than it's really bloody tiring and it means [b]I'm really tense/stiff and unable to absorb bumps[/b]."

In other words, it doesn't work offroad, especially on a hardtail! 😉

P.S. I like your taste in bikes! V similar to my weapon of choice.

Try getting your hips further back and chest lower

I came across this the other day, good video...at least, I thought so. I'm not one to be handing out tips, mind.

[url=

Interesting thread so far.

Look at that - the server ate two of my posts and them spat them out an hour later. Weird...

Totally agree on the brakes - bring them up so you can drop your wrists/forearms, and move them in so your one finger has maximum leverage.

Gah.

Just typed a reply and it's been eaten.

Weight distribution. Just been for a play in the cellar. The position shown in the pics is pretty much neutral. I can happily let go of the bars completely -very little weight on my hands. This is on a flat floor, so a bit false though.

Brake lever positioning is absolutely fine. I don't know if the pics make them look too steep, but i'm not straining to reach them even hung right off the back of the bike. I've ridden some of the steepest nastiest techiest stuff in Les Arcs and the Peaks on that setup (and on flats), and it works fine.

Fork setup. If anything I think they're too soft at the mo. (I don't have my pack on, so add another 10 or 15lb on). I have never been entirely happy with those forks though - either they're divey or they're harsh and however I dick around with them I can't get them right, which is a shame as both my Rebas and Lyrics "Just Work (tm)". Currently, they're soft and divey...

Shoes. I used to have 5:10 Freeriders, but they didn't last too long, and having a cardboard midsole on an expensive outdoors shoe is just a joke, so I decided to try the Tevas instead. Memory tells me the 5:10s were grippier (could be rose tinted specs though). I do remember long descents where I literally had to unpeel my foot from the pedal. Reluctnat to blow another £70 on shoes.

The advice in this thread's already better than I can give I reckon, so I'll just stick to this- are you absolutely sure that you're observing these forms while riding? What you're doing should be perfectly adequate, seems to me, so it makes me wonder if you're maybe doing it right while leaning against a wall but then slipping while riding. Maybe, maybe not but it's a very simple explanation...

Seriously, move your brake levers. You're asking for advice, so take it!

Rotate them to about 20-30 degress from horizontal. You'll think it's all wrong but get out on the trails and it'll make sense.

Seriously, move your brake levers. You're asking for advice, so take it!

Rotate them to about 20-30 degress from horizontal. You'll think it's all wrong but get out on the trails and it'll make sense.

A more DH focussed instructor suggested the flatter lever position to me about 3 years ago, and at first I wasn't that keen as the levers felt a bit odd when stood up on flatter ground. I was a bit of an old skool 'elbows out/forearms in line with forks' rider, so the elbows down position that the flatter levers encourage also felt odd to begin with. However, I experimented with a lever half-way between the two positions, then have gradually ended up mving the levers progressively flatter - I guess they're now about 25-30 degrees off horizontal.

It really is worth a try - and at least it doesn't cost anything.

Good luck 🙂

A more DH focussed instructor suggested the flatter lever position to me about 3 years ago, and at first I wasn't that keen as the levers felt a bit odd when stood up on flatter ground

jedi said the exact same thing to me. It transformed my riding. The way he put it was to show me how my weight pushed the fork into the ground if my wrists were on top of the bars... when the levers were a bit flatter my wrist was behind the grips.. this meant it was pushing the bike forwards and not into the dirt. Key difference

(think it's explained in that vid i posted)