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Toying with the idea of moving away from SPDs. I’ve been clipped in for 20 years so don’t know any different.
What shoes are people wearing for general off road cocking-about duties?
I wear Shimano, OH likes FiveTens. Both are more than good enough.
Afternoon,
I've been thinking about this too, but not sure if it's a good call as I think I use the clips when spinning more than I realise.
Though I think i'm only thinking it so I can buy something and tinker with the bike!!
For the routes I do I think clips are fine.
Though I did go for so Ride Concept shoes, but think I much prefer the skinny road style XC shoe.
I'll be keen to hear what you think to being unclipped!
I hope you're well
Harry, for cocking about duties, I use old running shoes. I get 250, 300 miles out of them, so they're still in decent nick, but are fine for buggering about local woods etc. Any old trainers will be okay
No need to spend a fortune if you're unsure. Then if you like it, a good pair for longer rides, five tens, whatever.
for dicking about any old shoe and pedal will do really. cheapo plastic nukeproofs and etnies/ vans are fine for a few jumps and messing about providing its not too rocky where you are. some people prefer a stiff sole - for me i find a stiff sole makes the pedal feel a bit vague with flats and i cant ride as confidently. i think its cos my brain thinks i'm clipped in when i`m not.
if its minging a sticky shoe helps but costs increase significantly. you dont need a sticky shoe if you have half decent technique. most modern pedals provide enough mechanical grip.
for xc riding clips are a no brainer for me. the energy saved is massive.
i come from a flats background but happy to ride clips and do so for wales/xc stuff but flats locally in the slop.
oh i find i need to drop the saddle nearly an inch if going to flats from a good pedalling position on clips.
after 5 years of clipped i moved to flats on a bike early 2018 and another bike in sept2018, still riding SPD on xc mtb and drophandle.
it takes a long long time to get used to them, as you say not as efficient peddling, but once you get the knack, heals dug deep when descending, then my feet are stuck like glue.
i now prefer flats for proper offroad, although i miss the spds on non technical climbs and smoother trails.
a good grip pedal such as DMR vault or burgtec and a stealth rubber sole be that adidas terrex or 510 and you are good to go.. dont buy cheap.
510s can be heavy, thick soled and look special.
in summer i ride wearing my five tennies approach shoes, grip is superb and you can wear them down the pub. (currently under £50 on adidas, less 20% discount from vouchercodes.co.uk)
Would never go back to SPD's after having used them for years. FiveTen are my go to shoes with Nukeproof pedals. I think it'll make you a better rider. Certainly safer if you get into trouble.
I am a lifelong flat pedal fan and use the new On one flat pedal shoes. Not super grippy but not bad and are good in bad conditions.
I've been using a pair of 5.10 Impact VXis I got cheapish off a PSA on here. Started trying to use flats alongside my SPDs after a similar 20+ years of using SPDs exclusively.
I'd counter the 'any old shoe and pedal' thought above with the logic that if it doesn't work and feel right, you won't stick with it. I bought decent pedals (CB Stamps) but was just using old trainers and it felt rubbish - didn't want to continue using flats as I just kept losing grip and taking chunks out of my shins. Adding a decent pair of shoes worked wonders, and I'm as happy on normal/longer rides on flats now as I am on clips. My jump technique is still crap - as evidenced at Dirt Factory the other night - but it was crap on spuds anyway, I could just get a bit higher because I was clipped in. It's one of the things I'm consciously working on on the flats.
once youve tried five-tens nothing else comes close. bought a pair of shimano ones once on a ridiculous deal but they went on ebay after one ride.
im thinking of going the other way, need to teach myself to not dab so much!!
the energy saved is massive.
I can accept that SPDs offer some efficiency gains, but massive? That's spurious at best.
for xc riding clips are a no brainer for me. the energy saved is massive.
Interesting. I've just switched the gravel bike to flats for winter (having always used flats off road, but SPD-SL on the road). So far I've not been able to detect any reduction in average speed in half a dozen 3-5 hour rides.
Anyway, back to the OP. I love my Vaude Moab shoes, buy 5:10 are the go-to option for most folk it seems.
So far I’ve not been able to detect any reduction in average speed in half a dozen 3-5 hour rides.
Speed, no - but do you feel more knackered/is your heart rate matching etc?
That said, you might just have really good flat pedal technique and really poor SPD technique, in which case the difference might be negligible. Like nobeer's statement, I don't think the difference is 'massive', but I have found I notice the difference on a long ride. Other people's experience might well vary!
I rode clipped in for about least 15 years, from Road to DH racing.
Couple of years back tried flats again. Massive difference. So much more confidence on the descents, can feel the pedals through the sole and modulate the pressure (like pressing your edges through a ski boot). Very little lost in 'efficiency' for MTB.
I now ride clipped in on Road/Gravel bike and some milder XC stuff, flats for proper MTB. Regularly doing both I think also has merit.
I’d counter the ‘any old shoe and pedal’ thought above with the logic that if it doesn’t work and feel right, you won’t stick with it. I bought decent pedals (CB Stamps) but was just using old trainers and it felt rubbish – didn’t want to continue using flats as I just kept losing grip and taking chunks out of my shins
once youve tried five-tens nothing else comes close. bought a pair of shimano ones once on a ridiculous deal but they went on ebay after one ride.
100% this in my opinion. Don't fanny about using your walking boots or running shoes. Get a pair of Five-Tens and some good qualtiy big flat pedals. The difference is huge.
A half-arsed attempt will just see you back to SPD after 3 rides wondering what all the fuss is about.
Well, to be fair, it's only half a dozen rides so far. Maybe I'll be able to detect a difference with more data, but I have been looking and so far can't measure anything significantly different (heart-rate, perceived effort etc).
GCN did quite a nice lab test that seemed to show that there wasn't really any difference. Then had to go back out on the road and record another less scientific video to justify the fact that they wanted to carry on using their clipless pedals anyway 🙂
Personally, I think the whole pulling up thing is a myth (outside of the sort of sprint efforts I'll never make) and you can pedal circles just as well with decently grippy flats and pedals with pins. Plus it's a darn sight easier when you get off the bike (whether that's hike-a-bike or a cafe stop).
If there is a difference I suspect it has more to do with the stiffness of the shoe than whether it's connected to the pedal or not, but that's just a hunch.
Anyway, it's an old argument and I don't really have anything new to add. Each to their own. I'll probably put the clipless pedals back on the gravel bike in the summer, but probably just because it feels right.
Oh, one negative I have found to flats on the (rigid) gravel bike is that my feet can get knocked off the pedals on rough ground. Don't find that an issue on the full-sus MTB and don't recall it being an issue on a hardtail either funnily enough, but I do notice it with the gravel thing.
Those On One shoes look like they could be worth a punt for the money.A set of descent low profile pedals make a difference too,I bought a set of Superstar Nan X Evo's 15 months ago when I went over to using flats and they have been very good. I've just ordered a second set and a rebuild kit for first as they have developed wear/play of late. 35% off at mo ,which is a nice bargain.
I really enjoy riding on flats now,I can't think of any reason at the mo to go back to clipless.
Rode spd's for years and have been on flats pretty much exclusively for off road for about 5 years.
The do take a while to get used to. Dropping heels on the descents you pick up very quickly but the thing that caught me out was sudden changes in cadence. I'd just forget I wasn't clipped in and my feet would fly off when I started spinning the pedals at the bottom of a climb! Thankfully I don't do it anymore but I still occasionally find myself "unclipping" as I roll to a stop.
I use Shimano GR7's and XT flat pedals.
flat/spd and energy saved is a personal thing probably. i was surprised at the difference it made for me. i do pull up alot which you just cant do riding flats. i was a lifelong flats user before though.
i just think its stupid to shell out loads of cash on an experiment if you dont have to. we all have some Vans (or another flat shoe equivalent) so just spend 15 quid on some superstar plastics from on-one and go play in the street and local trails before committing over £150 on posh pedals and shoes that might be crap for you.
you will scrape your shins regardless. just like you fall off yr bike sideways at lights when you first try clips. its a right of passage.
Well, to be fair, it’s only half a dozen rides so far. Maybe I’ll be able to detect a difference with more data, but I have been looking and so far can’t measure anything significantly different (heart-rate, perceived effort etc)
Sorry roverpig, wasn't having a go! I'd agree with you, someone with good flats technique could easily be as efficient or better than someone with poor clips technique.
As far as I remember*, the physics suggests that clips could be more efficient by up to about 30-40%, but that's the variance between best-case scenario on clips and worst-case on flats. Effectively, the worst-case on flats is a flat foot that can only able to push down in the front quarter - 1:30-4:30 on a clock face. Likewise the best-case on clips is being able to push down and pull up through the front and rear quarters and beyond, with only dead spots across top dead centre and bottom dead centre. Neither of those are particularly realistic though, and the actual inputs will be way more nuanced - a decent grippy shoe on good pinned flats probably comes very close to a mechanical connection when used properly.
Me, personally, I do feel like I'm more efficient on clips, but that's probably either placebo effect or because I'm not long back on flats and my techniques still poor. That said, the gap doesn't feel as big as I expected it to.
*Caveat that with the Sam Vimes "Always take into account the fact you might be dead wrong"
No problem. No offense taken. It’s all personal innit and you can’t argue with the Commander of The Watch 😄
once youve tried five-tens nothing else comes close. bought a pair of shimano ones once on a ridiculous deal but they went on ebay after one ride.
100% this in my opinion. Don’t fanny about using your walking boots or running shoes. Get a pair of Five-Tens and some good qualtiy big flat pedals. The difference is huge.
He's asking about cocking about in the woods. If I'm going to our local jump spot, to bugger about on stuff we built, running trainers are fine, as are vans, etnies etc as people have done for years.
No need to get my five tens out.
I'm answering what he's asking, not 'what is best for flats'...
I chop and change between clips and flats depending on ride/mood/terrain/weather. Took me a long while (and many shin punctures) to get used to flats though, having started using toeclips 6 weeks after leaning to ride a bike.
Easier to play with the bike on clips and easier/lazier on high speed rocky stuff, much better for hard, limit of strength/traction technical climbing (being able to just drag the bike up a step when you're about to stall no matter where in the pedal stroke you are).
Flats are a whole world more fun on "death-on-a-stick" downhill runs. The ability to get a foot off, and more importantly back on solidly again before the next corner is not to be underestimated. General riding around, there's very little in it.
You'll need to run your "pedalling" saddle height a gnats cock lower (about 1/4" for me). Dropping your saddle for descending is almost mandatory, as if you're on tippytoe when the back wheel hits something, you'll get bounced off the pedals when the saddle hits you in the nads. Drop your heels - no more than that!
5:10s of choice and a pair of Burgtec Composites will see you right, If you want to make a proper go of flats, splash the cash. There's nothing more unnerving than feeling the bike drop off your feet - and as a clips rider for 20 years, you'll want all the help you can get to avoid it (buggering around in the local woods or not - its all the same riding and its the same confidence or lack of it!)
Yeah but... Now, I'll happily ride on any half-suitable shoe. But if you're an experienced rider that's totally used to SPDs then it can be a pretty steep learning curve, and also very frustrating, because you tend to try and ride like normal, and if you've got ingrained bad SPD habits that can leave you really struggling, which is where 5 10s or similar can make a big difference.
What size feet are you andy?
5.10’s for me. I’m another chopper and changer - flats and clips both have pros and cons and I like to be able to switch between them. The revelation with flats for me was placing my feet much more centrally (rather than using the ball of the foot)...
I use vaudes and might try the RC next.
If you've clown feet your welcome to borrow some
I wear vans through spring to autumn for commuting. But they were a mistake to wear on an actual mtb ride as they offer no protection against sticky uppy things hidden the undergrowth alongside the trail. Painful toes for months after. The bulk of 510s helps protect your toes a bit more.
When it comes to adjusting to flat pedals practice riding standing with as much of your weight through your feet as possible and a loose relaxed grip on the bars (at least until it gets rough and gnarly).
etnies/ vans are fine for a few jumps and messing about
I rode etnies for a while, they were brilliant for feeling and gripping the pedals so for jumps and stuff, but felt like a right chore for pedalling cos they were so soft.
I've now got 5.10s and they are harder to ride in - not sure why, I think the pins are hooking up in between the circles on the sole so I cannot shift around my foot like I wanted to.
I find both worse for pedalling than SPDs though. I do lift my foot on the back stroke a bit on SPDs - not pulling up as such but un-weighting. I'd love to do an experiment to measure the difference in forces for my pedalling and other people's.
The revelation with flats for me was placing my feet much more centrally (rather than using the ball of the foot)…
Yeah, see I learned to do this with etnies, but I can't pedal like that so on climbs I'd shift my foot forward. It's exactly this shifting around I find hard with 5.10s. It was suggested that I try shorter pins though - have yet to order them. I don't ride that bike very often 🙂
I’ve now got 5.10s and they are harder to ride in – not sure why, I think the pins are hooking up in between the circles on the sole so I cannot shift around my foot like I wanted to.
This is the point of the sticky rubber, your feet stick rather than move around. Remove the grip (either with less grippy shoes, or shorter pins) and your feet are going to get bounced on the rough stuff which is counter productive.
I think you need to spend more time on your flats technique here (sounds like you're running spds most of the time). Sometimes getting your foot in the wrong place can be a pain, but I'd rather the grip and have to re-adjust every so often, to be honest once you get used to to you don't even thing about it (sort of like learning to unclip).
I'm clips on my road and gravel bikes, but never got on with them on the mtb.
Can’t stress this enough... keep your heels down! It magically makes your feet stick to the pedal!
I've got DMR V8s on one bike and cheaper BBB BPD32 pedals on another. I don't notice any difference between the two when riding and the BBB seem decent quality to me.
I like to be able to dab a foot, or to not have to clip in if setting off uphill (after failing to clean a climb). I have recently purchased some 5-10 freeriders and noticed a massive improvement in security.
once youve tried five-tens nothing else comes close. bought a pair of shimano ones once on a ridiculous deal but they went on ebay after one ride.
I hate 5-10s, I prefer shimanos currently using GR9 shoes and they are great. Don't get lead down the road of getting the stickiest shoes and gripiest pedals, find a level of grip which you are comfortable with. Personally I like to be able to move my feet around and make adjustments when riding.
I’ve been riding clipped in for years, I can’t remember the last set of flat pedals I’ve had on an MTB.
I’ve been out a couple of times this week on my new Solaris and decided to try flats. I was amazed how much better it felt to me! I’ve not got any bike specific shoes, just a pair of Nikes, which I think are skate shoes, and they work perfectly for me. The shoes are already about 10 years old and won’t die so they'll do for me until I kill them off.
i rode spd for 20 years or so, until one winter ride when it was so cold the snow and ice turned my pedals into frozen snowballs. Thought it woul dbe a good time to try flats and I've been flats ever since. fivetens's and Deity T-Mac pedals work a treat.
Sometimes getting your foot in the wrong place can be a pain, but I’d rather the grip and have to re-adjust every so often
I'd be more tempted to agree with longmover - I think I want the right amount of grip, not maximum grip. This was discussed on the last thread we had on this topic, one occasion where not everyone disagreed with me 🙂
Start with easy trails and practice. I learned to ride with flats on a pumptrack. I then hurt my knee and switched to flats for all my riding and it was pretty straightforward because of the hours id put in on the pumptrack.
To the OP, by all means try it and stick with it for some months.
Like many, I was a SPD user for about a decade. My technique was crap, had lots of arm pump, knee and ankle pain were normal things. But SPD were the "serious mtber" way, so be it.
I ride everything from longer trail days with lots of elevation to proper DH shuttle runs.
Year and a half ago I decided to try flat pedals. Completely changed the way i ride, for the better. First 2 or 3 months were awful but then everything started to click and now I can't imagine going back. It was a step back, 2 steps forward (or 3, or 4, 5 maybe?)
What this meant to me:
- good pedals and shoes are paramount
- My knees, ankles and feet stopped hurting
- Having my feet free made get my sh!t together in terms of technique and body positioning
- It provides you with a ton of cues, if your feet start rattling then you´re doing something wrong
- They keep me honest about my skills envelope. With clipless I would often completely loose composure but stayed attached to the bike and dodged bullets. With flat pedals if you start stepping outside your abilities your feet will let you know
- Because you´re riding with "heavier feet" you relieve your hands and get much less arm pump
- It feels so much healthier for your knees, your feet will land in their natural position and keep everything smooth for your body
- To my surprise I much prefer to climb on flat pedals. You can still pull the pedal with a scrapping motion, I do this all the time. And I like it so much more to put down power and stamp on a proper platform rather than on a clipping mechanism that feels like a ball bearing. Never understood the efficiency loss thing, unless 0,5% means something for you
- I always had the habit of rotating my hips, knees and feet in corners and certain jumps. With clipless this lead to either lots of unwanted unclipping or to max out the clipping tension. Not an issue on flats
- You'll be much less injury prone in falls and spills
- Flat pedal shoes are just awesome for walking around, driving, hitting the pub
- I like bikepacking sometimes, this way you'll only carry 1 pair of shoes
I could carry on with this, but I think you get the point.
The only scenarios I could imagine to use clipless would be if I was racing XC for that tiny marginal Watt gain or being a Pro DH racer for the balls to the wall, composure out of the window moments.
Shimano shoes are great for general trail riding and even "enduro" riding. They're reasonably priced, dry fast, are durable and have good grip. Because of the aggressive shuttle days I wanted something with even more grip so got a pair of Five Ten Sam Hills, it's like riding SPDs on the rought stuff, I forget about my feet.
Never understood the efficiency loss thing
I think it's down to your pedalling technique. I spent many years focusing on efficiently pedaling circles and flats inhibit that. If you just stomp on the pedals I'm sure there's not much difference.
It may be possible to develop an equivalent pedalling technique with flats, dunno.
I am of the opinion that the best choice depends on the riding you want to do. That's why I have flats in my big bike and SPDs on the others. I still find it harder climbing in flats but then that bike is shit on climbs anyway. But I swear it wasn't as bad when it had SPDs on it.
I dislike the "pedaling in circles" term as it is more a smoothing of the pedal stroke rather than a push-pull action as more recent studies show. But yes, you can do that with flat pedals, I do it almost constantly.
I can't imagine clearing a step, slippery climb just stomping on the pedals.
I guess is comes a lot to do with the pedal-shoe combo quality
Standing pedalling is a good cue for flat pedals, I was trying to mention it a few posts before, but forgot to mention standing & pedalling, and didn't exactly say to unweight your wrists & hands while standing pedalling almost to the point that your fingers are barely looped around the grips and instead just lightly resting on the tops of the bars. That reduces input from your bars and maximises input/weight/power/whatever to the pedals from your feet. This allows the bike to move side to side more freely beneath you and helps to find smoother pedal strokes as well as learn body positioning & weighting. Try standing pedalling like this in an reasonably easy gear but maintaining a smooth controlled pedal stroke on both feet. Another 'drill' to alternate pedalling and freewheeling, but always with a half pedal stroke at the end so that you alternate which foot is leading when freewheeling. It's stuff I've played around with anyway and think it might possibly help (with the boredom on commutes home at least).
I've been on SPD's for around 20 years all in all and occasionally have a try on flats but quickly go back.
Normally get fed up because I can't get my foot off a flat pedal quickly enough - how daft does that sound !
Leaving an SPD is second nature now and I haven't had a crash caused by being caught suddenly and not getting a foot out for years.
But when I put my Vaults and Specialized 2FO shoes on, I seem to lack the ability to simply lift up when needed so my foot always feels too planted.
Think I need to persist !
I know what you mean there, I felt the same for some time. In all my clipless era I never had a problem to quickly unclip or dab, like in a technical situation. That was never a reason for me to leave SPDs. Even today I can jump on a SPD bike and have zero issues with that. On the other hand, got hurt while crashing hand having the bike making my ankles or knees to do wrong moves, like having a feet stuck on the pedal underneath the bike with me on top, but that's a different story.
I don't know if it's the case with the Specialized shoes you mention, but I would argue that there are some shoes too sticky for flat pedal introduction. The Shimano GR7s I had were perfect for this, sticky enough to be more than safe but still allowing you to feel the pedal and correct foot position.
I would never recommend my current Impacts to a novice. They have so much grip that some of the usual flat pedal technique can be overlooked and also you can't correct your foot position once you step in the pedal. You need to have the mechanics internalised of place your feet systematically in the right place
You need to have the mechanics internalised of place your feet systematically in the right place
Or, like I did, you just get used to it, and move on.
I was on SPDs for years, knee suffered at puffer, gave flats a try. Comibg from SPDs you have a 'need' for your foot to be in the position.
Which isn't really needed.
True, but it's nonetheless a good skill to be able to place your foot in the right spot on the go.
Specially if you have big feet, even with large pedals you don't have that much real estate. If you foot is off it feels weird quickly.
But this is something that comes naturally with practice
funny how attitudes have changed over the years, I remember a similar thread on here from around 2007-2008, but the concensus back then was that you werent a proper mountain biker unless you used clipless pedals.
I only ever really used flats on the mountain bike (I always use clipless on the road bike), I tried clipless on mtb for about 6 months back in 2009 ish, I've never had so many crashes and injuries as I had during that 6 months of trying clipless pedals - never again. Having said that the best riders I have met have always been on clipless pedals
useful thread! im also chin stroking the whole flat pedal thing. been on spds since shimano started making them.
its a mixture of wanting to try something new and fear of trying something new!
i think for me, riding a rigid, non dropper bike in the wilderness, perhaps flats just helps the simplicity factor. when its really muddy or over grown, i guess the whole pedaling efficiency thing is less important than just being able to generate forward momentum. perhaps it will be more fun?
i suppose another factor thats still not fully formed in my mind is the whole knee pad vibe - i hate wearing too much kit but guess its part of the whole thing as well. nothing constructive to add to the thread though...
im probably overthinking the whole thing and should just try it!
funny how attitudes have changed over the years, I remember a similar thread on here from around 2007-2008, but the concensus back then was that you weren't a proper mountain biker unless you used clipless pedals.
Some insisted that a giant backpack was mandatory too.
But in seriousness, dropper posts have played a key part. Anything technical with the seat up and I need clips. Some people have a technique for this but it's still a big compromise. Now every trail bike can drop the saddle at the push of a button, that huge downside is removed, the flat / clip split IME is around 50-50.
Obviously this never really applied to the pure DHers, and the carry your bike up a mountain to ride back down guys, as they dropped the saddle anyway. Us rolling terrain southerners though...
i suppose another factor thats still not fully formed in my mind is the whole knee pad vibe – i hate wearing too much kit but guess its part of the whole thing as well.
What? No! I've used flats, never worn knee pads. Oh.. unless you are talking about protecting your shins from pedal strikes? Never happened to me, not as an adult at least 🙂
Oh.. unless you are talking about protecting your shins from pedal strikes? Never happened to me, not as an adult at least 🙂
Not to me either while riding. I really don't understand how the pedal that's under your foot hits the shin that's above the massive protrusion of your foot? Are people riding like they're a 2 year old on a balance bike?
Pushing, carrying/putting down after carrying, unloading the bike from the car, then yes, sharp pins at shin level have caught me quite a few times.
julians, I agree, attitudes have changed, but so did the bikes, the kind of riding most people are doing and the technology.
Looking back at most of the flat pedals available at the time I can see how people disliked them, as did the few and far between quality shoes.
Thin(ish), concave, large area and properly pinned flat pedals, together with good flat specific shoes and dropper posts are almost mandatory to make it work.
And totally anecdotal personal experience, almost all the best riders I personally know are on flat pedals
I made the switch from SPDs to flats about a 2 years ago and haven't looked back.
I was using SPD for maybe 20 years and for the last few, I was suffering from severe right knee pain during every ride. After switching to flats the pain was gone in a couple of weeks. Its been fun learning how to handle the bike and I'd find it hard to switch back.
I really don’t understand how the pedal that’s under your foot hits the shin that’s above the massive protrusion of your foot?
I think it's because if one foot slips off, the weight on the other one causes the pedal to spin round and the pins dig into your shin which is now moving downwards under your weight and it then gouges your skin.
However like I say that has yet to happen to me. But I'm obviously now doomed.. what pads...?
If you ride rowdy enough things a pedal to the shin eventually happens to everyone, sooner or later.
Half an year or so ago I was sending a 6' or 7' drop to flat which I've done a million times. Its quite a pedestrian one once you loose the anxiety and learn to squash it properly. The thing was, that day the drop's edge had a couple of stones, which caused the rear wheel to lift and hit my arse when I was squashing. The wheel rebounded off me arse and the bike suddenly dropped under me, causing my left foot to loose the pedal. Landed right foot on pedal, left pedal right on shin. 1" long slice to the shin bone. Dense as I am, never got stitches, that one left a proper scar there
Another spd to flat convert here. Rode spd's for 10 or so years with no issues but a holiday to Whistler got me thinking about swapping to flats (jumps, drops etc). As a few others have said, I actually hated it for a couple of months, feet kept coming off the pedals. Then something just gelled, and although I'm sure spd's would / could be a bit faster, I can't see me going back to spd's now. Flats just feel more fun to me.
Oh, I'm definitely in the get decent flat pedal specific shoes and pedals camp, they work so much better than generic trainers that you wouldn't be giving flats a fair crack of the whip otherwise. I would argue that you need decent shoes for messing about in the woods just as much if not more tha xc / trail rides. You can always ebay the lightly used pedals/ shoes if you don't take to kit to minimise your cost. At least you know you'd given flats every chance then.
Go Outdoors sell Five Tens often at a discount. I only paid £35 or something.
SPD's since 1991. Tried flats a couple of years ago - SS El Plastiques and 5:10's. Had 6-8 rides on them and did not enjoy any of them. I was too focused on riding flats, rather than just riding I think.
Foot placement - foot in the wrong place every time, so was always having to try to shift to the right place. Can't just slide the foot though - had to lift off and look where to put it. With SPD's it's pretty much right every time, and not hard to re-position.
Stopping - after all that time on SPD's, I was still twisting my feet to get out of them which got tedious quickly. With SPD's, that's fine as it's how they work.
Pedaling - always felt disconnected (which is the point) on flats, and never felt secure enough to give it full gas on climbs.
Jumping/hopping - I don't gate whether using the clips to pull the bike up is bad technique or not. It works and is easy.
I have no doubt that a different pedal/shoe combo or more time trying it would enable me to get over the issues above, but ultimately, SPD's work for me and ICBA to not enjoy rides until flats work.
FWIW, current pedals are Nukeproof Horizon CS with the pins removed. Still got support, and the pins never did much when I wasn't clipped in. When I was, they made it harder to clip out.
teethgrinder - Jumping/hopping technique - that's the whole point, just pulling up on the pedals doesn't work (not peroperly anyway). Sure, you may get away with it on small stuff but as soon as you get to bigger jumps etc, you need move on the bike properly to get the lift and correct weight distribution. I'm no expert on the bike but I'm pretty sure someone actually good like Jedi would say that pulling up with spd's is limited in what it allows you to do. Watch any skills video on you tube and they all talk about the bunny hop technique, and it's not just for effect or to look good, it's because it works.
On the other hand if what youre doing now works for you then great, but it will limit you.
Sometimes the issue is that we are all talking about wildly different kinds and levels of riding without realizing it. There will be someone commenting on how something works or doesn't and he's thinking about full fledged DH tracks or crazy technical climbs and someone on commenting on the same theme who only rides channel paths.
I don't want to sound judgmental prejudiced, but someone o says that pulling up the bike works and it's easy is likely to be referring to very small jumps. I might be wrong here, but that's generally the case. As soon as you hit the bigger stuff, pulling the bike by the pedals won't get you nor far or high, you wont have much control or stability and you'll soon pay a visit to nose-dive-ville.
Anyway, to each it's own, what matters is that people are happy and riding bikes.
The only reason some people get passionate about this topic (me included) is that you feel a huge number of riders are missing a world of riding potential, convenience, fun and safety with little downsides
I started out riding on flats when I started MTB three or four years ago.
The reason for this initially was two-fold. First I was working to a budget and figured that flats were cheaper since I'd just need to buy pedals, rather than pedals and shoes if I went SPD. The logic being I could use some old trainers with flats and I'd be 'reet. Second being a beginner I liked the idea of being able to get off the bike in a hurry.
So I set out riding in trail running shoes or whatever. But a few months in I got some cheap 5:10s off the classifieds here and found it a world of difference in terms of confidence and grip. Literally a complete game changer. Trainers just feel sketchy now. So I'd personally say try specific flat pedal shoes if you want to give it a proper crack of the whip.
In terms of getting off the bike in a hurry, I feel my initial instincts were entirely justified. For bailing out on steep terrain, in particular, just sort of stepping/slithering off the back of the bike is a technique I value and can't imagine working so well clipped in.
In terms of flat pedal injuries front, yes, shin strikes happen when your foot comes off. Generally if you're "doing it right" this doesn't happen of course! My worst to date were from trying to figure out bunny hops early in my MTB career. Happily I've not hit my shins for a while, which now I've said it will lead to stitches next ride...
The bit l struggled with when trying flats was foot placement
With spuds your foot is always in the same place on the pedal. With flats it was really hard to replicate this and because shoes grip so well you can shuffle into the right place I had to lift my foot off the pedal and try again.
Flip side of that is when riding steep technical trails it's easier to just get a foot back on the pedal and feel relatively secure, trying to clip back in after a dab made for a few twitchy bum moments. Flats have more margin for error than clips where it was all or nothing. I only ever used 520's which probably aren't the best for that kind of situation but most half decent flat pedals will give you that margin for error.
GCN did quite a nice lab test that seemed to show that there wasn’t really any difference. Then had to go back out on the road and record another less scientific video to justify the fact that they wanted to carry on using their clipless pedals anyway 🙂
I think they were disappointed that the efficiency myth was proven to be just that 🙂
Personally, I think the whole pulling up thing is a myth (outside of the sort of sprint efforts I’ll never make) and you can pedal circles just as well with decently grippy flats and pedals with pins. Plus it’s a darn sight easier when you get off the bike (whether that’s hike-a-bike or a cafe stop).
The thing is people are focusing on the mechanics of one leg but you have to take both into consideration as that one that you think your pulling up is actually being pushed by the other.(assuming you have both legs)
The thing is people are focusing on the mechanics of one leg but you have to take both into consideration as that one that you think your pulling up is actually being pushed by the other.
Well exactly. The leg that's pushing down has to both propel you forwards and lift your trailing leg up. So the more you can unweight the trailing leg the more downward power you will recover. Not for free of course but you're using different muscles to lift a trailing leg.
Most people don't actually pull the pedals up but they do unweight. And I find I cannot pedal the nice circles I do with SPDs if I am using flats - I do actually unweight my trailing foot to the point where it comes off the pedal.
“Personally, I think the whole pulling up thing is a myth (outside of the sort of sprint efforts I’ll never make) and you can pedal circles just as well with decently grippy flats and pedals with pins.”
Exactly. Clips give a marginal gain for racing where milliseconds count but human anatomy means that the power and efficiency gains from pulling with the trailing leg are mythical.
The only thing that will change that is millennia of evolution caused by people being on bikes all the time and speed helping them survive and breed. Current human legs walk, run and jump - pedalling is a side benefit. Walking, running and jumping requires near zero upward pulling with the legs.
Most people don’t actually pull the pedals up but they do unweight. And I find I cannot pedal the nice circles I do with SPDs if I am using flats – I do actually unweight my trailing foot to the point where it comes off the pedal.
Makes me think of bunny hopping. Flat pedals are advised for learning to bunny hop correctly. When I went from SPDs to flats and tried bunny hopping there were a few times where I literally jumped off the pedals. Watch any bunny hopping how to video and they'll talk about pedal scoop - but that does apply to both pedals. Haven't seen any mention of learning to bunny hop with flats and then going on to use SPDs for extra lift.
Wasn't it shown that all the fastest/high power cyclists don't have smooth power all they way around the pedal stroke anyway? They mash down. Seems funny to imagine at the head of a race they're being mindful of smooth pedalling strokes. The only time I go for nice smooth pedalling is on gentle rides where I want to conserve energy.
Seems funny to imagine at the head of a race they’re being mindful of smooth pedalling strokes.
They are pros, they have to think about a lot of stuff.
The only time I go for nice smooth pedalling is on gentle rides where I want to conserve energy.
Like, say, during a stage of a 3 week long endurance event..
The study you are referring to IIRC said that they don't generate power by pulling up, but they do unweight the pedals more than nor al cyclists do. I may be a freak but if I do my usual smooth pedalling stroke whilst using flats the trailing foot does get a bit loose.
Incidentally the reason that SPDs are bad for pulling up on when bunny hopping is that you rely on the clip retention, and that can let go without warning. If using flats you have no clip force so you have to take that into account, so you won't get a nasty surprise.
Only thing for sure, is that everyone’s experience is different! The only was H-t-S will find out is by trying it. Get some plastic flats and some shoes in the sales and give it a go.
Molgrips, with respect you're wrong - the reason that SPDs are bad for pulling up on when bunny hopping is it doesn't allow for proper weight distribution on any reasonably sized jump. Nothing to do with unclipping. You can still do it properly with clips once you've got the technique but you can't do it on flats without so you have to learn.
Only thing for sure, is that everyone’s experience is different!
This.
just ordered some flats and shoes - will report back but im looking forward to my first non-spd ride since ...erm 1990!!
I once tried spd's on a road bike.... what was i thinking! bike & shoes have gone.
Didn't like the fact i had to use specific shoes to go for a ride & when my feet became uncomfortable didnt have the option to move them about.
Use Merrell approach goretex shoes most of the time, comfy, waterproof & keep my feet warm. dont like cold feet. Never had a problem with them & even did the London ride 100 in them. was nice to be able to walk around normally at the food stops too.
good in the mud too.