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Gibber 🙂
Quite excited. I always kind of wanted a FlareMax, but was put off by the slack-ish seat tube.
Oh great, my bike is out of date already 😩 Guess I’ll just have to slum it on my deeply unfashionable seat angle for a bit longer. To be honest it’s never bothered me, but I can see why they changed it. Hopefully it won’t change the balance of the bike too much though, as it’s always felt spot on to me.
I liked the old one after a demo ride.
Not bought a new bike yet and was too late to get one of the recent discounted ones. Might need another demo on the new model.
There are still some of the “old” reduced price ones left. Give Cotic a shout if you want one.
They had to change the seat angle though, it was definitely costing sales. I'm surprised they didn't go all the way to 77 or 78, even if it rode terrible it's what the people want. I was expecting Scottish front triangle, wonder why this doesn't get it. Love the orange.
Also looking on the website to see if I was wrong about where it's made where has the roadrat gone?
Looks great in orange, yeah.
Seat tube angle better. Bit long on the large at 460mm though, I thought they'd gone shorter on some of their bikes.
Supernova Orange my arse. That's Irn Bru!
Has anyone done the maths on the new seat angle ? It depends on the height it’s measured at, which I couldn’t find, but by my rough calculations it shifts the seat forward by about an inch. So you could probably buy the original and slide the seat forward by that much anyway.
In fact, thinking about it, that’s basically what I did. I’ve been saying that I don’t mind the slacker seat angle on the original, but I did slide the seat forward when I first set it up and have left it there.
Obviously with the new one you could still slide the seat forward and make it even steeper, but I was surprised by how small the difference seems to be (unless my maths is wrong of course).
Presumably the top tube stayed the same length (or similar) so the balance between weight on the saddle and bars will be similar to what it was before.
Steepening the seat angle with a similar top tube length will will also increase the wheelbase.
as always the colours look fantastic and I want one.
Talk all you like about geo and the (very lovely) super-dooper orange, we’re still talking 33lbs in weight! 😳 Heavy...
Fair point. They will never be an option for people who like a light bike. Once I rode one I found that I couldn't care less about the weight, but for others it's important and that's fair enough.
My XL is 16kg 🙂
I might change the wheels at some point but I don't think lightweight forks and tyres are going to improve the ride. It does make me wonder if there's really that much weight difference in the frame or if people chronically understate their bike weights, my alloy hardtail comes in at 14kg on the same scales and a big chunk of that difference is the tyres.
Presumably the top tube stayed the same length
Good point. TT seems to have decreased by around 10mm while reach and wheelbase have increased by around 10mm. That would fit with the idea that the saddle has moved forwards about 20mm relative to the BB (so I guess my maths wasn't that far off). Quite subtle differences (when you can move your saddle by that much anyway), but then last year's model was bang on in my opinion so if a few tweaks can make it even better and widen the appeal why not?
It's all irrelevant though, the main difference is that it now comes in orange !
“Has anyone done the maths on the new seat angle ? It depends on the height it’s measured at, which I couldn’t find, but by my rough calculations it shifts the seat forward by about an inch. So you could probably buy the original and slide the seat forward by that much anyway.
In fact, thinking about it, that’s basically what I did. I’ve been saying that I don’t mind the slacker seat angle on the original, but I did slide the seat forward when I first set it up and have left it there.”
Yes, 2 degrees is about 25mm if you have long legs. But if most people are sliding their seat forwards on the old frame then it makes sense to steepen the seat angle on the new frame. I slide the saddle all the way forwards on my Levo whilst on my Zero AM I can leave the it in the middle of the rails.
I was amused to see that the main complaint on the BikeRadar review of the 2020 Flare was that the seat angle could be steeper! I think some reviewers forget that not all trails are winch and plummet, it’s not all pros going super steep.
Also, if you can get the effect of two degrees by sliding the saddle forward an inch, why didn't the BR folk just do that? Then they'd have a bang on trend 77 degrees and would be much happier. Not that this number means anything as it's only true at a certain height which never seems to be quoted. I'll bet that some bikes they criticise for being too slack are really steeper than some they think are fine.
As you say steeper isn't better though. In my experience it's better for a short burst up a steep pitch but less comfortable over a long period. Maybe I just need to adapt, but for now I'm happy with a slightly slacker than fashionable SA for all day riding and just scooting forwards for those short steep pitches.
“Also, if you can get the effect of two degrees by sliding the saddle forward an inch, why didn’t the BR folk just do that?“
They probably did! Seat all the way forwards is very common on reviewer bikes and 77+ deg seat angles aren’t unheard of now.
I think really tall riders (this reviewer is 6’3”) don’t realise how they need a steeper seat angle because their higher saddle ends up closer to the rear hub. And it’s even worse with bikes that don’t have straight seat tubes from the BB because the effective seat angle gets slacker with increasing saddle height.
Yes, that's what I mean about it depending on height and being a largely useless number. Hardly any bikes have straight seat tubes these days, so they all get slacker as you get taller. Since they never seem to say what height their effective SA is measured at I can't help wondering whether they just pick the height that gives them the number they want 🙂
Of course you can always use a Thomson Elite layback seatpost in reverse, which is what I did with my old ML7 - it's undeniably aesthetically 'interesting', but if you don't need a dropper and want to radically alter your seat-tube angle, it's out there 🙂
More generally, I think some of this is down to where you ride and your personal riding style. I'm on the Peak and everything is up and down and up and down, and down and up, repeatedly, so a bike you feel is compromising climbing performance is quite irritating. That's assuming you're the sort of rider who enjoys short, steep, technical climbs. I got converted by my original Blue Pig and haven't really looked back since.
Anyway, as ever, if a bike works for you, then it works for you, regardless of what the numbers say.
Well I'm glad they've not overly changed it, I may have been tempted if they had. I wouldn't mind the extra reach, all 8-9mm, or the travel but not that fussed. Plus I like my blue one better than the new colours, though the orange is really nice!
Regarding the seat angle, never had an issue with it, in fact I find it climbs really well and is comfy to pedal all day round the Peak, Lakes, Wales etc. But maybe I'm missing out?
I think really tall riders (this reviewer is 6’3”) don’t realise how they need a steeper seat angle because their higher saddle ends up closer to the rear hub. And it’s even worse with bikes that don’t have straight seat tubes from the BB because the effective seat angle gets slacker with increasing saddle height.
here is a key point. Are people wanting steep seat angles because its getting their hips and cranks in the correct relationship for efficient pedalling (taking into account that most people are only doing seated pedalling at high effort on climbs).
OR are they concerned about their arse in relation to the rear hub, with this issue of looping out, or nearly looping out giving that wandering climbing feeling?
The first will affect everyone, the second only tall people
BadlyWiredDog
Of course you can always use a Thomson Elite layback seatpost in reverse, which is what I did with my old ML7 – it’s undeniably aesthetically ‘interesting’, but if you don’t need a dropper and want to radically alter your seat-tube angle, it’s out there 🙂
Moving the seat forward like that without the ability to drop it sounds like a nightmare
Moving the seat forward like that without the ability to drop it sounds like a nightmare
Absolutely 🙂 but it kind of worked for an XC race bike. I wouldn't think about it for general trail riding or more.
Thanks for the chatter and interest in the bike. We still have the older bike available in some sizes and colours, still discounted.
For me (6' 5"), it is absolutely definitely the second. Though it is related to the first point, as if your seat angle really is slack, it can feel like your pedalling a recumbent, but with the handlebars in front of your feet.
So, it's really both points, but yes gets exponentially worse if you are tall. See also chain stay lengths - they really need to grow in line with frame size.
in general, this why I ended up designing a chi ti frame that works for a huge bloke.
I give you exhibit A, an rental XL Tallboy, that was really quite badly named. Riding this was horrific (all though I did love the rear suspension feel, makes me understand why folks like SC bikes:
Can I state for the record that I would really like a FlareMax Cy - but it just ain't big enough!
As for seat angle, we have tried steeper, and the overwhelming feedback is that we don't like it. I'm 6ft 3in and Hannah is 5ft 4in and everyone else here is somewhere in between, so we test on a range of people. What's been said above about the nature of some climbs is exactly right - steeper tech climbs might be better on a steeper seat angle, but for most of the riding we do, and the vast majority for a lot of riders, it's steady pedalling for a fair amount of time. For those climbs you need to the option to sit in and take the weight off your shoulders. Having a super steep seat angle for long climbs makes you feel like you're in a half pushup for 30 mins! You can always pull forward a little for steep climbs, and I like a good tech climb so I'm not going to have something that doesn't work on that. It's also just part of the whole system as well. Because we use fairly long chainstays, you're weight is centred better on the bike and you're less likely to tip off the back.
These aren't made in Scotland like the RocketMAX and the Flare because Five Land are at capacity delivering those two model lines for us amongst the other work they do. The FlareMAX is our biggest selling droplink model, so it's better for now to make sure we can get the volume of frames we need to keep people supplied with awesome bikes.
For the guy who mentioned weight - the frames are no heavier than aluminium counterparts from a lot of brands, and the difference to some carbon frames is less than you might think. The main thing with our bikes is they're supplied with parts that survive in the real world, not just to impress on a spec sheet. The WTB aren't light, but they're tough and brilliant and won't let you down and you won't be cursing us for needing to buy a new proper set of tyres after a month on the bike. The Manic seatpost isn't the lightest either, but it's super reliable and smooth acting, which is more important than super light. And in our opinion steel is worth having. It's tough, durable and it has incredible traction and ride feel. Some things on your bike your carry extra weight for performance. You wouldn't run a rigid fork, or seatpost, or rim brakes. All those are lighter than suspension forks, dropper posts or disc brakes, but I wouldn't have a bike without them because the weight is worth the performance. Same with steel - we use it for performance. I don't use it just to be different, I use it because it's better.
I'd love to visit Sweden at some point, but it's not in the demo tour plan for now. Get a frame on order. If you don't like it , return it in good condition within 30 days.
For the guy who mentioned weight – the frames are no heavier than aluminium counterparts from a lot of brands
My 2019 Flare Max frame is within ~100g of the weight of the Aluminium On-One Codeine it replaced.
cy
Subscriber
Thanks for the chatter and interest in the bike. We still have the older bike available in some sizes and colours, still discounted.
not in XL though
What's the red like in person? I love a red bike and I know cotic have form with good reds (the first 26 ain't dead BFe frame was amazing) but less sure about the red dwarf.
I would love it in that rad purple colour like what that there Solaris has . @cy you are welcome to Åre bike festival , loads of swedes are obsessed with British bikes , Hope and so on, so you'd be on to a winner I reckon.
I won't be ordering one now but may well do when the snow melts in around 6 months!
What’s the red like in person? I love a red bike and I know cotic have form with good reds (the first 26 ain’t dead BFe frame was amazing) but less sure about the red dwarf.
It's basically neon red. It's REALLY loud. The pictures are a good representation.
The riding in Åre absolutely rules.
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cy
For the guy who mentioned weight...
🤗 That’ll be me 🤗 Thank you Cy for responding to my comment and I totally get and understand your rationale and reasoning, I too love the feel of steel. In fact, I further salute you for disclosing the overall weight of the bike at all! It’s something that nearly all brands fail to disclose.
It’s a cracking looking bike and together with the reviews, if I were looking for a mid-ish travel LLS bike, I would definitely consider yours, especially in that orange, it looks sublime 😁
Just to add I demoed the Rocketmax at the weekend whilst other's demoed the Flaremax (2019 edition) and it was tough to choose between them on off-piste trails such as five year plan at Glentress. The Rocketmax was marginally more sure-footed but only just. The way you can turn these bikes on their side and they hold you up is incredible. Once you try one of these bikes you will most certainly want one.
Thanks! I'm so glad you had fun. Sam was buzzing off the riding when he got back on Monday.
@cy thinking waaaay ahead here, but am I likely to be able to demo one at ardrock next year!?
@richardkennerley Yes, we're already signed up to Ard Rock so that is definitely happening. The Demo Tour is on the road the whole time though, so check out www.cotic.co.uk/demo to see if we can bring one to you sooner.
This is a really good thread.
Cy, do you have any Scottish Demo days happening in the next couple of months?
I’ve been thinking about my next bike and have it narrowed down to 4. This is on the list but somewhere between “silver” and “gold” builds. I’d much rather support a UK company than have hard saved cash going to huge companies.
My riding is a mix of local single track, big hills like Pentlands and Ochil Hills, bigger hills like Munro’s and the odd trail centre like Glentress / Laggan.
@garryfmacdonald Good to know we're on your list. We don't have a demo day booked for Scotland yet as we're planning the 2020 tour right now, but we'll definitely be coming up. We love it! Best thing to do is email demo@cotic.co.uk and let them know which size FlareMAX you'd like to ride and where you are and they will factor that into the planning.
Cheers, Cy
Just ordered a frame. Cant wait.
👍