[Closed] Finding an extra 5 seconds? (Warning DH related Content)...

Intervals?
I would have thought they would be perfect for DH style race training.

I'm a fan of interval training to get me up to sped at the beginning of a season. But I've never raced downhill.

Get a fifteen/twenty minute run in every/most morning/evening.

definately fitness. could pedal your way to 5 seconds on almost any course, let alone the extra control you'll have in the latter half of a race.

I doubt you were bottom third because of your fitness unless you were done and sitting down by halfway down the course. five second spread between bottom third and top half suggests it was a short course anyway.

you need to go round corners faster. simple.

Do you ever stop too 'session' certain section of a track until you get it perfect?

Obviously its not possible on every downhill track as you will be in the way but its great for Technique and should help you lay off the brakes more and get cornering perfect, this will save you time!

Other than that a bit more fitness but that wont help if your always on the brakes.

and you wont be going round the bottom corners fast if you are trying hard enough as you'll be tired from doing the top ones right.

hence fitness.

Pump tracks.....
Great for explosive fitness, endurance and bike skills. Rail those Berms, nab speed from every rise and fall in the track and fun....did I mention fun?
Got to be more fun than running nowhere on a treadmill.

or... NOT pumptracks.

alright for casual fitness, but most folks either back it off to a pace where they can pump all day long (ergo not really training)

or do two laps at a decent pace then stop for a natter/pie/fag (ergo not really training)

you need to go round corners faster. simple.

That.

More time to be made up going round corners faster & laying off the brakes more, unless it was a huge pedalfest of a track.

take your brakes off.

if you have 2 hours a week to train you can get huge fitness gains for DH

Practice not slowing down. Take those fingers off the brakes and grip the bars. The bike wants to roll relax and roll with it.

fitness isnt 100% about pedalling.

all this talk of corner speed etc. deosn't mean crap when you are down the bottom of a 3 or 4 min course and hanging out of your arse, unable to hold your head up from bashing off the bars.

fitness first, finesse later.

can't say I've ever seen fitness win over skill at a DH race before...

+1 jam bo

XC racers are very fit, doesnt mean they are anygood at DH, The more speed you can carry the better! fitness will help though with things like arm pump etc.

I'm not really on about fitness training, more keeping my eye in with regards to handling the bike when generally short on time...
Fitness wise I'll be upping my cycle commuting, doing some running/night rides in the evenings perhaps and maybe even joining a gym again (not keen on the gym TBH), but I'm generally very time restricted at the minute and I'm conscious that as much of an adonis as I might become it won't help me nail corners, jumps and drops other than helping combat fatigue...

boxxer 7 - interesting points, personally if I'm practising a specific course for a race I'll tend to Session my way down once or twice then try to stitch together some "feet up" runs and maybe one or two race-ish paced runs, that all assumes you've got the time/energy, I only really had time for 2 full practise runs and a little bit of sessioning this weekend, so one feet up sighting run and a second with some pace, before sitting about for ~1hr then race runs, I suppose you do need to be aware of fatiguing yourself too much during practise or getting too cold waiting for your run (well you do if your me)...

And yep, definately out braked myself at a couple of points where I knew better, which is really the issue I'm getting at with the question I suppose...

Ultimately I know it's all down to time on the bike, but I don't have alot of time, so I've got to come up with a bit of a strategy to make what I do have really count...

Currently with a 3 year gap in racing, no real training, and a bike setup that still needs a bit of tweaking perhaps, I'm placing bottom 3rd of the field, so I reckon it's feasable to be looking to improve to mid table by the end of the season...

I'll happily sign up for a skills course, but again that means clearing a day (probably at the weekend) a long way in advance and clearing the funds with the missus (tricky ATM)...

My Local woods are a reasonable place to build/maintain skills although not amazing - 20-30 second runs but not hugely steep, plenty of technical sections tricky courses, some roots, jumps kickers that you need to think your way through (especially in the wet) but for sustained runs

It doesnt have to be the actual track you are racing, even at your local you could try and pick somewhere you think you could do better and hit it again and again until you either come off at which point that will be as fast as possible or you really dont feel you can go any faster.

Did you walk the track first?

It's easy to lose 5 seconds with a couple of mistakes, you need to do a full run (preferably following someone just a little bit faster) and see where your problem spots are, then practise those. Normally it'll be the same sorts of things (flat turns, off camber sections) that there are a million and one videos online to help you think about technique, and you'll know what to concentrate on down the local woods.

In fact the local woods are a good answer - so long as you run back up every time!

or... NOT pumptracks. alright for casual fitness, but most folks either back it off to a pace where they can pump all day long (ergo not really training) or do two laps at a decent pace then stop for a natter/pie/fag (ergo not really training)

That's because they are NOT training. If you ARE training, then obviously you may have to apply a modicum of self-discipline and use your time there.

You can run as far as you like and yeah, you'll get fitter, but bike skills will be improved only by.........riding your bike. Kill two birds...

try and love the flow, look for free speed on the course - pump sections make the bike move smoother, try some tough HT rides and look for better lines.

Riding hard tail really improved my full sus riding.

Try a 1:1 coaching session Jedi in the south, Ed or Nigel Page in the NW, I did a session with Craig from cyclewise in Whinlatter, massively improved my riding by showing me my faults and working through them.

Remember to enjoy it though 🙂

Practise your weaknesses.
And fitness does make a massive difference.
It's a different kind of fit to xc though, more explosive strength.

"can't say I've ever seen fitness win over skill at a DH race before."

what about skill plus fitness? what would that win over?

i gave up on this thread when i saw it was going down the cock wavey fitness doesn't mean owt, look at xc riders etc etc route...

glad there are some people that can see what i'm getting at.

look at the top half of the results table at your next DH race. then look at those fellas.

how many of them are fat knackers?

I have not trained for DH racing but have trained for sports with a similar requirement on speed, commitment and fitness. The key component for competition was always fatigue technique training, doing a full on endurance session to fail followed by a technical skill session when you are completely knackered.

People make mistakes when they are tired, if you can eliminate those mistakes then you will make significant time gains over a course.

Hard intervals for fitness. Tabata?

Section / session tracks. Repeat a corner again and again until you're railing it. It's what the pros do. If you've got a friend who is in a similar boat, watch each other to make sure you've got feet down etc etc.

Try http://rocksteadymtb.com/ they do downhill and freeride skills course.

Need better times: pump the drops and pedal where ever you can. On race day if you are finding a section hard stand there for 10 mins and watch everone else, are they using a different line, different speeds etc....

Section / session tracks. Repeat a corner again and again until you're railing it. It's what the pros do. If you've got a friend who is in a similar boat, watch each other to make sure you've got feet down etc etc.

look at the top half of the results table at your next DH race. then look at those fellas.

how many of them are fat knackers?

I never said the top guys arent fit. I bet even the likes of brendon and sam hill can be found on a road bike off season.

but if you are currently in the bottom third of the field like the OP is then it is highly unlikely to be down to fitness alone.

I've got a mate who rides a bike once in a blue moon, smokes, drinks and it generally pretty unfit. turned up our local DH series a few years back, placed in top ten with one practice run. pure, natural, wasted talent.

IME, on short course dh tracks, fitness rarely has anything to do with it, it is all about skill and being able to carry speed through the slower, more technical sections.

My advice, as others above have mentioned, is to practice maintaining your speed through corners (lean the bike over not yourself, stay low, look at the exit of the corner not the entrance etc), feathering your brakes only when you absolutely need them, picking the correct line and sticking to it, keeping it smooth and flowing, un-weighting the bike through rough sections etc.

You also need to be aware how sections lead into one another and the line that gives you the best entry into the next section: Look at F1 drivers and you'll see that if they mess up one section, that will mean they are slower through the next section.

It also boils down to holding your nerve and being fully committed, but that should come once you sort the above out.

Obviously, on the longer DH tracks, fitness does come into play; in which case intervals and sprint training would help.

I'm certainly not suggesting that fitness is of less importance or that I don't believe i will contribute to improved results but I was more interested in how people efficiently train their brain/muscle memory to consistently read trails and put it into effect (Technical training if you like), a large part of your performance will always be driven by fitness, I think people are getting hung up on the focus of my initial question and (as ever on STW) choosing to missunderstand what I'm actually interested in, or tell the OP their asking the "Wrong" questions...

Training is never a single form of excercise, I'm fully aware of that I shall be addressing my woeful fitness also, but I'm keen to look at targeted technical training too, a skills course or two is probably going to be booked at some point (Firecrest @ aston hill are probably most local for me)...

The other interesting point a couple of people have raised is the management of fatigue, which I didn't really touch on before, a different issue too I suppose, both in terms of extending riders resistance to fatigue, strategies to avoid/reduce it and finding ways to cope and continue to ride effectively when it sets in...

Interesting that so many seem to be keen on short section sessioning rather than putting together full runs in practise, I see value in both and do both (as well as the obligatory course walk) but I wouldn't consider racing down a course i hadn't ridden in it's entirety at least once, for one thing it gives an indication of how much the course will beat you up and tire you out and you get an idea of what sort of speed you'll actually be carrying into each section rather than looping in at a lower speed and getting a false impression of your approach in the race run...

Anyway Some useful input (some not so) many thanks all...

i gave up on this thread when i saw it was going down the cock wavey fitness doesn't mean owt, look at xc riders etc etc route...

glad there are some people that can see what i'm getting at.

look at the top half of the results table at your next DH race. then look at those fellas.

how many of them are fat knackers?

Of course it means something, however, at a regional/local level DH race, the difference isn't being able to pedal for 2 minutes solid. The difference comes from being able to ride a bike fast.

I know some very fit guys who also ride, and race DH, to a reasonable standard. They still get smoked by other people I know who are better riders, and considerably more unfit.

Personally I don't find sectioning whole tracks works for me, apart from a couple of areas. Sometimes on a bit I struggle with i'll pull over to watch a few riders, and try a couple of lines, but otherwise it's just a case of trying to increase speed until I feel i'm there or there abouts on a reasonably clean full run.

you need to go round corners faster. simple.

this X10.

Corners, corners, corners. The way into, through and exit.

Practice different types, and walk the course before the race, take a good look at the different lines available.

do what tracknikco says he made some girls swoon whilst riding his bike on sunday. true story.

buy more equipment from you local bike shop, maybe invest in some off road skills too, maybe a troy lee d3, chris king wheels, carbon bars, dc or monster socks pulled up to your chin, 5ten shoes, smith or oakley goggles but not bolle goggles, some pajamas that say fox or troy lee on etc....

but seriously fitness

In no particular order:
Lay off the brakes
Practice your cornering
Ride more (!)
Practice riding with more flow
Look further down the trail
When you ride, batter yourself
When commuting, sprint in between each set of lights
Do squats

I was more interested in how people efficiently train their brain/muscle memory to consistently read trails and put it into effect (Technical training if you like),

I'm serious BTW

Get yourself an Xbox/PS3 and MX Vs ATV Alive and play online at night until you can consistently win stacked Pro races.

I have no words

dc or monster socks pulled up to your chin

you seemed to have plenty a few minutes ago

If you can, find some people a bit quicker than you, and chase them.
No point in trying to follow the really quick boys though, you'll just get dropped in a second.
And the fitness thing, it's not about pedaling solidly for two minutes, it's about how much power you can get in a five second sprint out of a corner forty times. Oh, and not being so shattered you can't remember the line through the last section.
Main thing is though, enjoy yourself.

dc or monster socks pulled up to your chin, 5ten shoes

dc or monster socks pulled up to your chin
^^ does actually work

How does playing a computer game train muscle memory?

The best training for racing is racing. Race more get faster. In the mean time ride more, commute by bike for base fitness, ride at night for skills and the explosive fitness. I would say circuits but now the clocks have gone forward I would invest more time on riding then circuits. As winter approaches do circuits until then ride more etc.

finally some sense on the thread. explosive power indeed. strength and conditioning. all basics of general fitness right?

ride more hard things, regularly.

race more. there is nothing like racing for giving you better experience/confidence for even more racing.

and please god. don't just mince around a pump track with a head cam on.

How does playing a computer game train muscle memory?

personally if I'm practising a specific course for a race I'll tend to Session my way down once or twice then try to stitch together some "feet up" runs and maybe one or two race-ish paced runs, that all assumes you've got the time/energy, I only really had time for 2 full practise runs and a little bit of sessioning this weekend, so one feet up sighting run and a second with some pace, before sitting about for ~1hr then race runs, I suppose you do need to be aware of fatiguing yourself too much during practise or getting too cold waiting for your run (well you do if your me)...

And yep, definately out braked myself at a couple of points where I knew better, which is really the issue I'm getting at with the question I suppose...

[b]Ultimately I know it's all down to time on the bike[/b], but I don't have alot of time, so I've got to come up with a bit of a strategy to make what I do have really count...

muscle memory is about teaching you muscles to do a task. you gain the muscle memory by doing the task. muscle memory for bike riding comes from riding bikes. muscle memory for playing mx games on a computer comes from playing mx computer games.

The muscle memory for dh racing will come from dh racing and other things that emulate riding a dh bike things like perhaps riding an mx bike for real, or riding any push bike off road.

though i do agree regarding the head game bit

Surely the correct answer is a new bike. That's got to be worth a try 🙂

muscle memory is about teaching you muscles to do a task. you gain the muscle memory by doing the task.

muscle memory for bike riding comes from riding bikes. muscle memory for playing mx games on a computer comes from playing mx computer games.

The muscle memory for dh racing will come from dh racing and other things that emulate riding a dh bike things like perhaps riding an mx bike for real, or riding any push bike off road.

In my DH days the difference between bottom 3rd and top 3rd was knowledge of the track and skill. I did really well at mountain ash through a combination of riding it a lot and watching good riders lines. However I wouldn't discount what ability to sprint could do for you especially on a course like mtn ash

XC racers are very fit, doesnt mean they are anygood at DH, The more speed you can carry the better! fitness will help though with things like arm pump etc.

Massive "depends", just like everything else that's been mentioned. A xc skier will probably be fitter than me, but would (s)he be able to beat me down a 10- 12 minute off-piste downhill derby? Maybe, maybe not, but me being 100% fitter would have meant my legs weren't destroyed halfway down with my form going to s--t. And I wouldn't have landed on my arse/back/head 3 times.

Thing is, you know one or two things could make the difference. but you don't know which of the 10-15 possibilities are the right ones to concentrate on. No-one can tell you that over the internet, so you can either try one at a time, follow faster mates down and narrow it down or go and see someone like Jedi.

And GW being a tit again.

IMHO pathetic

He's got different priorities to you. Other things are more important to him. Even if they include relaxing. That is all.

Sure, some people need a kick up the arse, but who are you to tell who they are, from wherever you are?

Not being able to accept people having different priorites is pathetic.

Just trying to work out which pro dh racer has the initials gw. 😀

aaron GWin?

"The best training for racing is racing"

No it isn't.

Greg m.. No.
Gee a... No.
**** me.
Aaron gwin on stw.

care to expand?

"The best training for racing is racing"

No it isn't.

People suggest new kit, but I think a relatively cheap and easy "win" is some mud tyres for when it's muddy.

Can easily be worth 5s and not cost too much. Not helping you on a dry track though!

Not sure if it's above, but making sure that I do plenty full non-stop runs helps me. Cos sessioning is all well and good, but it feels different when you're riding the whole track and not hitting sections fresh/slower entry speed etc.

Having said that, I'm generally firmly mid table, top half on a good run, so my advice probably aint worth ought 😉

15 minute workout - XC bike and pick a big gear, stand up and mash hard for 10 cycles then carve and pump an imaginary turn 10 times (left then right). Rest for 10 seconds and repeat until you're completely banjoed. Then do it again. Once you can feel it getting easier - switch to the DH bike.

Cheers for your input GW My primary "Pathetic excuses" are respectively 33 and 2 months old and outside of my busy working week they have first claim on my time, riding is sadly a distant third or fourth ATM, getting a whole Sunday for a race was a bit of a coup in my pathetic little world TBH and probably won't be repeated for a little while.
As much as I like your Xbox based training program I'm technically a Grown-up now, and therefore can't sit in front of the telly for hours on end developing gamers thumb, when I was a student maybe that would have flown but not any more... and for that reason I'm out.

Oh and of course I walked the bloody course - Where exactly did I say I hadn't? Effing Armchair experts... 🙄

I think in amongst all the suggestions there are a few good ones and ideas worth turning into self improvement excercises:

-Repeated drilling of corners (of all different types) is a good idea. (I actually quite like your idea for a "flat corner carving drill with added rider fatigue" above Mr Euro as it ticks a couple of boxes).

-Repeated drilling of technical, rough rooty/rock sections with corners in (increases rider fatigue and forces some thought on line choices)

-Self-timed runs on my local trails I think as a baseline just to gauge progress.

-Some self-timed runs on less familiar courses (With No aborting runs due to botched corners etc, basically treat it like you would a race run).

Alot of the above isn't that far from my normal riding, only I think now it will be framed in a diiferent context i.e. [I]"How do I approach this in a race situation?"[/I] Still keeping it fun I reckon....

-Also More Cycle commuting and I think realistically I'm going to have to do some targeted excercises off the bike to build the old core muscles and general endurance/fatigue resistance...

There's my "Programe" now to put it into action...

Anyone here bought a DRC "X-monitor" lap timer? Is it a reasonable investment for ~£30?

All sound good cookeaa + a skills course at some sort of DH track. 😀

Bikejames.com has loads of good MTB fitness stuff - his latest video on bodyweight exercises is a very quick regime for the time starved (and he actually has worked with Aaron Gwinn).

I'm technically a Grown-up now

Believe it or not my first priority is also my kids.

Personally I don't really know why you are bothering with racing at all if you can only manage a few hours a week to try and improve (but that choice is entirely upto you).

I've often wondered why the bottom half of the field bother racing. At my local series it's the same people again and again.

Seems an expensive way to confirm you're slow.

😆

I've won 3 races since my last post 😉

jam bo - Member

I've often wondered why the bottom half of the field bother racing. At my local series it's the same people again and again.

Hmm... Perhaps they enjoy it? Crazy I know 😉

jam bo as a fully paid up member of the 'bottom of the field club ' I can confirm that it is indeed fun
it would be nice to ne an elite DH god like yourself
but ill just settle for riding my bike as fast as I can down a hill

to the OP. have you considered a suspension tune ?

For the record, I'm no elite. I don't race anymore as I know I'll come about middle of the field, higher on a good day, lower on a bad day.

if you don't beleive racing makes you better at more racing then i give up frankly.

Maybe get some training and focus it on cornering. I went along to one of Jedi's jumps and drops days and we did a little bit on cornering and it made me realise that it was by far and away my weakest area so I plan to go back and do a full day's training on cornering. I cleared a 9 foot gap jump with ease but fell off on a simple corner!

I can totally see how it can be fun to race, even though you know you'll be middle/bottom.
It's very difficult to replicate the excitement of racing in training/leisure rides. You just pick a level just above yours and aim for that. Just like this op is doing with chasing 5secs.

The important thing is beating your mates.
Makes the long journey home easier. 😯

dunno about excitement (that's a personal thing) but it's actually far easier to replicate a situation where you can see improvements outwith racing at a DH event. unless you take your own timing equipment to the race over a race weekend you will only get one chance to chase a level above your previous best time. (your second race run in a 2 run format race when the weather/conditions don't change too much). the next race you enter even at the same venue will almost always be taped differently, have different conditions and different opponents.

timing yourself on the same track/sections can show you instantly where you can save time through line choice, where not/to pedal, pump/jump, bike set-up etc.

its why KOM on strava is so addictive. you can beat your mates without even being there.