[Closed] Finally switching to full suspension (probably)

(I can’t justify 2 bikes btw).

Are you absolutely certain?

My Anthem 650b is quicker than my Scandal 29 ...ON THE ROAD.

Buy the full sus just make sure it locks out at the rear.

Plus tyre bike? Keep you on hard tail?

I’ve just done what you are contemplating. Years of riding hardtails and I’ve finally broken and gone full suss. Like you I can only have one bike too. Got a great deal on a used Cotic Flare and it’s absolutely great. I gave the whole plus thing a go and didn’t like it to be honest. Puncture city, even with tubeless and the tyres cost more than the GDP of some small countries.

I’ve not noticed much difference on the climbs and that’s without locking out the rear shock. I’m still in the new bike phase, but so far I’m loving it. The only downside for me is I’m spending way too much time messing with air pressure and rebound settings. I guess it’s because it’s all new to me and I’m not 100% on how it should feel yet.

The weight increase will only be noticeable when lifting the bike onto the roof of the car. You won’t need a lockout on the rear suspension - times have moved on!

It’ll be better in every way - the only time my hardtail isn’t disadvantaged vs my full-sus is when it’s so muddy that the speeds are so slow that the suspension barely gets moving. Or on tarmac!

My main reluctance comes from the added weight (probably between 1.5 and 2kgs more) and the impact when climbing and on long XC rides where the terrain is smooth.

If your experience matches mine* then you won't notice the weight after a few rides, and 1 or 2 kgs as a percentage of the overall weight (you and the bike) is nothing really. You might be a bit slower on the smooth hills but in all honesty it'll be 30 secs, hardly noticeable, and technical climbing you'll be a ton faster, but unless you're racing who cares about that? The descents will be 100% more fun.

*PP Shan to Airdrop Edit

The weight thing will vary a bit, but it's more like 1 kg for decent XC bikes IME.

I've always found suspension bikes faster off-road, even on gravel climbs because you can stay seated and pedal over rough stuff. I'm not saying that hardtails aren't fun, but the idea that they are massively lighter or faster is a myth.

As far as maintenance goes, I don't see much of a difference on a weekly basis. I don't hose my bikes down, I just let mud dry and brush it off. I think some of the problems people have with suspension bushings and bearings (and bottom brackets etc) is because they blast grit into the bearings when they hose the bike down. Apart from pivot bearings, rear shocks need servicing every few years. The rest of the maintenance is just the same as a hardtail.

If you have a high spec bike that you can't justify keeping alongside a full sus why not do a frame swap, or are you dead set on the Spectral. I'm sure you could find various second hand frames for little overall cost to dip your toe in the full sus water. For the riding you describe I'd be tempted by the Aeris 120 which is available frame only, and is now rated for 140mm forks. I was impressed how well this bike pedaled and climbed, yet was still a blast on the downs, and it would handle BPW maybe big jumps and pro lines excepted.

Be interested to hear why you can't justify more than one bike ... If it's about space, fair enough. If it's about cost, you could pick up something second hand for only a few £00 that would be decently sorted and just give you that FS option for bigger terrain / longer days out.

To echo comments above, I moved from a BFe to a Rocket (albeit via an Aline 160). I still have the BFe but it doesn't get much use any more as the Rocket is overall faster and comfier everywhere.

Thank you so much for the fascinating comments - Mark, frame swap would actually be a serious option as I like my current component and selling would cristalise depreciation of low wear component (weirdo alert).

I will look into the Aeris.

The thing I like with the Spectral is that it's amazing VFM for a carbon latest gen kinematics bike. And the Eagle gearing appeals a lot as it would improve on my current range at either ends (30 x 10-42 vs 32 x 10-50) which may help with the added weight - talking of which my current bike is an actual 11.7kgs with pedals whereas the Spectral is 13,3kgs officially and without pedals for a M (I need a L) - actual weight difference could be 2 kgs, which I appreciated is only 2% of total weight but still. I would swap the std 2.6 tyres for my current 2.35 and save 400g of rotating.

Looking at Aeris 145 to match my 160 Yari actually - not pretty but seems like a really good set up and VFM.

It's actually not that cheap at £1,257 when including shock, rear axle and collar. Probably poorer value than the complete Spectral.

Within reason don't get too hung up on weight.

I've recently moved back to FS and while it feels heavier to lift it isn't that noticeably when rolling. It's not as responsive on smooth climbs but the added traction on rough climbs more than makes up for it.

Thanks. Now looking at Spectral AL as £400 less for almost the same spec and 200g more. This definitely kills off the Aeris idea at £2,299.

@nickfrog

Have a look at the Giant Anthem 2018s (650b) this year. You can get an Anthem 2 for £2k or less with some negotiation. They ride really well. Like an xc bike and a trail bike in one. They are also a good few lbs lighter than the trail bike competition and feel noticeably so out and about.

Otherwise the 2018 Cannondale Carbon Habit 3 at £2k is a bargain if you like more classic geo.

Biggest bargain at the mo on more progressive geo is the Marin Hawk Hill 3 for 1699£ at Rutland Cycles if the geo suits.

Anthem why not ? Will check, thanks @sync

My carbon hardtail is 6kg lighter than my last 130mm fs (Transition Bandit) was.

It’s far, far quicker uphill and on the flat. It’s a little slower on some of the downhills and not as fun on the really steep & tech ones.

Overall it’s quicker though and was comfy enough to do the SDW.

Not saying ‘don’t get a fs’, just countering the opinions given above.

My carbon hardtail is 6kg lighter than my last 130mm fs (Transition Bandit) was.

PinkBike tested the Transition Bandit as 26.5 pounds without pedals. That's about 12 kg.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/Transition-Bandit-26-Tested-2012.html

If your hardtail is 6 kg lighter, that would make it 6 kg total, which is difficult to believe. I'm guessing your Bandit was built up using pretty heavy-duty components, especially wheels and tyres. If you compare bikes with similar components, decent XC suspension bikes are generally about 1 kg heavier than XC hardtails. If climbing performance is important to you, you obviously build your suspension bike with XC components, not DH gear.

So your 160mm Yari equipped aluminium framed hardtail weighs 25.7lb with pedals?

You must have some seriously light components on the bike as the frame and fork aren't light.

Bandit had Pikes, dropper, big fat tyres etc & came in at 16kg on my luggage scales.

Hardtail is very ‘blingy’ and is a shade under 9kg on same scales.

So an XC bike climbs faster than a bike with "big fat tyres etc". Amazing.

Yeah, obviously.

Just meat it as a counterpoint to everyone saying  that weight doesn’t matter or that fs isn’t slower.

Depends entirely on the type of bike, far more than whether it’s a hardtail or a full sus.

All I can say is go for it. I've yo-yo'd so many times between hardtail and FS and always regret selling the FS. I can only justify one bike as well and for me it's better to have the FS. I try to convince myself I can be happy with the simplicity of a HT but I hate the feeling of both ends of the bike doing different things - I'd rather have fully rigid than a HT as at least the bike is in sync with itself if you know what I mean. FS is so much more fun on all terrain. Climbs better on anything rough or loose (ie everything other than fire roads or bridleways), and downhill there's no comparison.

Off road hill climb segment on my way to work.

Yeterday on anthem 2.51

Day before on 29 scandal 3.29.

Not going flat out , just head down steady.

On scandal I was looking up to see where the end was , on anthem I was at the top before I looked up.

The anthem is an incredible bike and a tad lighter than the scandal.

My Cotic Flare is probably 2kg heavier than my Soul. And climbs faster on everything except pan-smooth fireroads or tarmac.

You always need more than one bike. I haven't found any difference in climbing speed on my 130mm FS vs 90's rigid MTB even on smooth gravel climbs. Anything rough, then the FS is way quicker. Even on gravel tracks I see no speed loss on the FS.

Its way comfier on long rides with my dodgy back. Planning getting another FS.

Just meat it as a counterpoint to everyone saying that weight doesn’t matter or that fs isn’t slower.

Depends entirely on the type of bike, far more than whether it’s a hardtail or a full sus.

FS isn't slower if you compare similar bikes off road. A good FS bike is not 6 kg heavier than a hardtail with similar components. A couple of extra pounds doesn't matter if it improves the bike performance, 6 kg does matter. Dropper posts, better forks, and fatter tyres add a bit of weight but it's well worth it for most people. Putting big, draggy DH tyres on a bike will really slow it down on road climbs, doesn't matter if it's a FS or HT.

My mistake. It's actually 12.3kgs (all parts weighted individually), or 27 lbs with TIME MX4 pedals.

Which is almost as light as can be for my weight (90kgs) and usage.

Yes frame and forks are heavy and my wheels are 2kgs too (they need to be).

Rest is full XT 11sp with a 10-42 SRAM cassette. Easton cockpit with carbon bars, Brand X dropper.

So officially, the Spectral CF8 would only be 1kg more once I have fitted my existing Hans Dampf / Nobby Nic 2.35 instead of the 2.6. But in practice I expect Canyon to  lie by about 500g...

I rode a 2015 Whyte T130 29 this weekend. It felt very fast uphill despite the added weight and being cushioned seems to just reduce stress and fatigue even if traction was not a limiting factor. Downhill was a bit like a flying carpet, quite amazing but sadly didn't have a chance to try it in twisty technical single track. I am seriously confused now about the way to go but perhaps the 2.6 tyres on the Canyon  would go some way towards emulating the ,bigger wheels ?

My FS is MUCH quicker climbing than my rigid bike on anything other than road or smooth fire road, on which it is about the same. Downhill there's no contest, it's about 3x quicker.

It is however a little less positive in a vague sort of way when on road or standing up out of the saddle, on account of the flex in frame and the fact the forks and shock don't lock out fully.

I like having 2 mtb’s - a ht and an fs. The ht always feels livelier and quicker but actually in terms of Strava times the fs is generally quicker.

On flat twisty pedally trails I enjoy the ht more, on everything else I enjoy the fs more.

Lots of different bikes are mentioned at opposing ends of the spectrum - an anthem is not even close to being the same as say an Aeris 145.

The Canyon / YT / Radon’s of this world are better value in component spec than say Bird / Whyte etc. I guess the difference is in the factory support you get and how they are. Bird has a very active owners forum and you can ring up and chat to the owners of business about things you are thinking about doing. I like that, but for other people that’s not a benefit.

If you want burly / able to take some abuse then the Anthem isn’t the way to go - but the Canyon / Aeris / T130 etc probably are.

The Canyon / YT / Radon’s of this world are better value in component spec than say Bird / Whyte etc.

Yes. And the Canyon Spectral CF8 the OP has in mind is an fantastic bike.

I have the basement filled with bike-stuff and three mountain bikes in good shape. One 29er 130 mm travel hardtail, one full suspension trail bike 130/130 and one full suspension all mountain bike 150/150.

And I actually "need" all three bikes. There is no bike which fits any trail which is fast on any trail.

Fatigue: only is a problem when biking with biking pals and you picked the "wrong" bike for the tour and if you struggle to keep up. If you bike alone: 4+ hours full suspension is fun. No problem at all.

Pretty sure you will enjoy the Spectral.

Nick, I have a Carbon Hardtail AND a Al T-130...

Lifting them is a huge difference, riding not so much.  I dumped the stock Whyte 2015 wheels ... The main drag is tyres... don't get me wrong, the Giant XtC advanced if FASTER on gravel/mild XC climbs but I don't really care... the T-130 gets me to the top and I'm older than you...  If I stick big aggressive tyres on the Whyte it feels much much more work... I rarely use the lock out... just get into a nice steady rhythm...

If you aren't racing you'll barely notice a difference pedalling unless you time yourself

Going DH ... incompatible.  The T-130 is just way more fun... it's completely changed my fun factor and I ride stuff in a way I wouldn't have thought I would.  My nearest trails are Swinley or Surrey Hills and the HT rarely gets used nowadays... and to be honest when I do use it it's a guilt trip... must use it or sell it.

Honestly have no regrets ... other than my riding changed so much Im thinking of longer travel...

That's beautiful feedback all, thank you. Cheers Steve, gives me hope that there is still life in the old dog ! I want to push back the inevitable switch to electric for as long as possible so perhaps switching is a good way to do that. I am sold, no question. I might keep the HT as because I have built from the ground up, there is emotional attachment. Probably the last time I do that.

Now the big question. Which size wheel ? I do value a bit of playfulness and while the 29 was incredibly stable, it was perhaps almost too stable...

The other absurd mental block I have is towards front travel. I am so used to 160mm (albeit on an imbalanced bike of course) and around 65deg HA, I am finding difficult to accept 130mm and 67deg, despite the bigger wheels. There is no real world rationale to this but mentally I prefer the idea of 150mm and 66deg, even on smaller wheels.

I won't lie about Carbon, I am not sure there is any functional benefit but it looks nice and might be an inventive to ride more, call me shallow.

Spectral CF8 comes back every time I look at other options.

Yes - good thinking.

Stay with 27.5 inch. That's fun. But make sure that you are able to fit 2.4 ... 2.6 inch rubber.

Yes - 65 deg hardtail with 160 mm fork is an incredible mix. Don't sell this bike!

With your new full suspension bike stay better "below 160/160". 160/160 full suspension bikes are tuned for downhill stuff. Not too much fun to bike them uphill.

Sound great what you have in mind / what you plan to do!

Your 65 deg hardtail is only that slack when you’re not actually riding it.

Cheers. The Spectral is 150mm Pike and 140mm rear on 66deg and 74 deg for climbing. It comes with 2.6 as standard.

Try both 29 and 27.5. try a variety of bikes, you'll learn nothing reading about them.

I've got a 160mm HT 26er as well.... lots of fun but my old bones feel more beat up...

If the carbon works for you and gets you out and you can afford it why not....

I ride the T-130 (aluminium) from Afan climbs to FoD uplift days and put a 140 Pike on....

I'd agree with andreas though.... stick below 160/160 if you want to pedal... (I know you can pedal longer Enduro but is it pleasurable at our age)

Try both 29 and 27.5. try a variety of bikes, you’ll learn nothing reading about them.

I agree about the trying, that's what I am doing - I disagree about the learning nothing though.

One of the bikes which you have on your list: the Canyon Spectral CF

Think this is an fantastic bike. One issue which you might discuss with Canyon: there is a recall right now for one Spectral version. Not sure if AL or CF. There is a fix or an update for part of the rear suspension.

I'am pretty sure that all newly ordered spectrals are fine. But better make sure.

Quite a few of my biking pals have Canyon bikes. My impression: very solid designs. No issues there.

more about the Spectral recall:

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/anyone-got-a-2018-canyon-spectral/

AL version, crack in weld of chainstay...

Mmmmhhh. Hate that kind of stuff!

Thanks for the heads up. All the CF versions bar the top one have the alu rear end but it would seem this is only an issue for early 18 production, or at least that's what they say.

alu rear end

Yes. Sounds a bit like a heat treatment issue? The cracks developed "in the weld"...?

Strange so: this is known stuff for quality guys since years and years - why don't they have a procedure nailed down to check / to make sure that no "problem welds" leave the production line/get shipped to the customer?

I have just ordered a Mondraker Foxy Carbon 2017 frame (non-boost) so I can use my current kit rather than get very little for it. £1,700 and hopefully £50 cashback. Will post pics when I have put it together... I'll keep the 160 Yaris which should yield 66 deg HA.

Moved from a 100mm HT to a 150mm front / 130mm rear FS

Climbing on the smooth feels (to me) to same effort as before. Climbing on the rough ground feels easier. Hike a bike feels noticeably harder, this is when I can really feel the extra weight.

I do standing pedalling as much as possible but stay seated if the grip is poor.

Only time I notice the extra weight really bothering me is when having to shoulder the bike up some of the Long Steep climbs up the mountains in the Lake District.

I don't know if the extra maintenance is that much more. Both types are expensive to maintain but I think an FS is only slightly more than HT.

I’d agree with andreas though…. stick below 160/160 if you want to pedal… (I know you can pedal longer Enduro but is it pleasurable at our age)

Wheras almost every reply I've read from andreas sounds to me like he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Sorry andreas but if you read on you might learn something. An FS bikes pedalling performance isn't just about available travel.
look at the bike's suspension data. Paying particular attention to it's anti squat and leverage curve. (read up aout these terms if you don't understand them)
Plenty 160/170mm bikes pedal really really well and believe it or not some 140mm bikes still don't.

Also being "near 50" I can also confirm it has absolutely nothing to do with whether pedalling a 160mm+ FS bike is more pleasureable than a shorter travel bike. Strenght/fitness/weight generally makes climbing any bike more pleasurable.

OP: The last meta AM hardtail I rode was right around 31lb.Almost exactly the same weight as my 170/165mm enduro bike with a very durable DH capable build which also happens to have very good pedalling characteristics. (Antisquat around 100% at sag).
I'd expect the Spectral CF to be lighter. I guess you must have built yours up with some very lightweight parts if you reckon the Spectal is 2kg heavier.

@geex:

sure your comments help the PO nickfrog?

You are an expert (even the world best?) in anti squat and leverage curves. Good boy! Good boy!

Enjoy your pedalling characteristics and get into the shadow - it's hot!

Paying particular attention to it’s anti squat and leverage curve. (read up aout these terms if you don’t understand them)
Plenty 160/170mm bikes pedal really really well and believe it or not some 140mm bikes still don’t.

Geex, appreciated but TBH I'm closer to rules of thumb...

nickfrog has now got me thinking and window shopping as well ... and it's really quite a job sorting the fact from manufacturer driven marketing and sponsorship of reviews...not to mention the human nature of consumer reviews that defend their choice.

As it happens last night I watched a Whyte vs Nukeproof on "a.n. other magazine's youtube'.

I own a Whyte already ... but I couldn't help feel the review was a bit biassed?  I'm wary of extreme low BB height ... but also what a tuned shock would do... I know at my weight on the T-130 the ML3 tune seems way better than the ML... and at the same time I really wonder if I'll ever need over 160mm???

Also being “near 50” I can also confirm it has absolutely nothing to do with whether pedalling a 160mm+ FS bike is more pleasureable than a shorter travel bike. Strenght/fitness/weight generally makes climbing any bike more pleasurable.

Unless you add in delayed gratification (on the descent) then climbing something like The Wall is way more pleasurable on my Carbon XC HT than my T-130... same fitness... I'm the same weight... etc.

Same goes for short climbs like Cannop... though to be fair only ever done that on the T-130 and then because I had to get to the top as Jnr got a lift before his race.(I'm more uplift when seasoning the orange trails).. I did make it up quickly... I just couldn't speak or breath for a while after... quite honestly I'd not have been so knackered on the HT...of course the tyres don't help etc. and the bids a 1/3 lighter... but I'd pretty much expect to sail up the push-up compared to the T-130... Same can be said for Leith Hill...

I don't really know if I'd benefit from 170-180??? What I do know is my bike is almost always the shortest travel on the uplift... and saving 5 secs isn' my goal so much as fun on the way down (at least until Jnr is pushing me)

Unless you add in delayed gratification (on the descent) then climbing something like The Wall is way more pleasurable on my Carbon XC HT than my T-130… same fitness… I’m the same weight… etc.

Correct.