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Which is kind of the question here: does using "whore" bring that bias up or is it just a bit of self-aware fun?
Fair question...
Discussing this with my wife, she puts it down as misguided humour, and doesn't see any benefit from it. [u]She wouldn't want to enter an event with these category names.[/u]
I'd say if it puts women off of entering (you know, an event sort of focussed on growing participation of women in MTBing) then it's being interpreted by the target audience as more towards the "sexual bias" end of the scale and thus it's been a counterproductive choice...
I still think it betrays a bit much about the organisers own understanding of gender politics, that they opted for this particular brand of "Self aware fun" but hey apparently they're [i]cool[/i] so I'm guessing using similar terms in all other areas of life is cool now, contrary to much of what I've learned during the last 30 odd years of my life...
I shall be Referring to my wife as "Whore" when she gets home and will report back on the results...
I meant more in the sense that if your wife/sister/daughter/whoever enters then they have made the decision themselves and you have no say in that. None. Be as offended by the names as you like but that's your problem alone. A lot like you have no say over what they dress like, who they see or what they get up to really.
I don't even know whether my wife is a virgin or a cougar.
I don't even know whether my wife is a virgin or a cougar.
Must. Resist.
I meant more in the sense that if your wife/sister/daughter/whoever enters
Oh, I see. Sorry, got the wrong end of the stick. Jolly good. As you were 😉
Not really there are only 2 women only enduro's in the UK so.However it's their choice to enter, not yours. Hence this argument is a dead end.
Real pros to Enduro Maiden for putting on these events because no one else is.
I have been working hard in the south to make enduro more attractive and accessible for women but I have had to say no to organising women only events.
Even cutting back to basic medical cover, timing, land hire, marshal fees etc... I couldn't do it for less that 80 riders, unless the entry fee was £45 but that makes it not very good value for money for a basic event.
Must. Resist.
I had to do the same after the post about someone's wife not getting it.
I'm in agreement with those that want to discuss the issue, and annoyed at those dismissing the idea that anyone can talk about it. Others have already responded well to that...
My point is: irrespective of the gender of the people organising it, how does using these terms benefit the aims of the event, and for making mtbing more appealing and inclusive? It doesn't. I get the idea that being humorous can create a less serious vibe and mtbing seems to have a good tradition of this, making events lean more toward fun. Surely there is a better way to achieve a friendly, inclusive, and encouraging event than resorting to a divisive taste in ironic humour?
Kettle's on Cinnamon Girl, do you have biscuits? I only whore my kettle out for biscuits
😀 only gluten-free biccies but they're quite acceptable in that one is usually sufficient. 😉
I'm not female but I just saw this on Twitter. I always knew there was a puerile side to the MTB sub-culture, and in 2017 using language and marketing like this is just garbage. It's quite possibly counterproductive and it's definitely plain crass. For me, a big mistake by whichever individual or brand organised the event. Another one of those times I'm embarrassed to be a biker. Oh, and the gender of the organisers makes no difference, and personally I'd question their 'coolness' referred to earlier.
I was trying to think of male equivalents for the categories
Enduro Gigolo's?
It all sounds a bit of OTT.
I still think it betrays a bit much about the organisers own understanding of gender politics, that they opted for this particular brand of "Self aware fun" but hey apparently they're cool so I'm guessing using similar terms in all other areas of life is cool now
What Cookea said
matt_outandabout - Member
I am with bez on this - I am not feeling outrage, more puzzled as to how this works in a positive, riding bikes, being women, cultural way...
Ey, my thoughts exakerly.
Be interesting to go watch though, maybe they'll have the category name on the rider in question.... 😕
Any publicity is good publicity though eh.
It is like someone asked for a double-entendre, so they gave us one.
[i]First reaction is [/i] click on the "About Us" link.
All wimminz. Shrug.
Second reaction, what a crap logo.
Third reaction- I wonder what the Mini-Maidens would think of the category names 😆
[quote=cinnamon_girl ]Well, this girl thinks it's a bit silly but hardly worthy of outrage from some of the STW chaps. Bit surprised though that the organisors used this terminology in the 21st century.
Apart from not being a girl, I'm pretty much with you there, cg.
I'm not particularly bothered by use of words myself, but if it is offputting to some women (as evidence above suggests) then it's a poor use of terminology. Sure they might be getting lots of entrants, but is that in spite of the category names? I presume a lot of their target market probably find it amusing (not only am I not female, I'm not likely to enter an enduro either), but that doesn't mean some potential entrants aren't put off by it.
I'm offended by proxy 😉
[quote=matt_outandabout ]
I don't even know whether my wife is a virgin or a cougar.
Must. Resist.
The question is, has everybody else?
Don't see an issue with it as I understand the humour apart from the fact that only 3 enduro races make you a whore but you can have up to 3 and still be a virgin.
I'm more concerned by the fact that anyone who has entered exactly three previous races and is aged 22-30 can't enter anything at all 🙂
New category - chastity riders?
Even cutting back to basic medical cover, timing, land hire, marshal fees etc... I couldn't do it for less that 80 riders, unless the entry fee was £45 but that makes it not very good value for money for a basic event.
It's subsidised IIRC.
As the OP is asking female riders to respond, I'm not gonna get offended on their behalf.
Did raise my eyebrows a bit. I can see the idea of keeping it light-hearted, like a mates' race - but agree it looks odd on Roots & Rain.
It just seems a lazy attempt (at best) to be cool.
Reading all the posts I see some justify the terminology because its organised by women, however if it was run by men and used that terminology?
cookeaa - Member...when she gets home and will report back on the results...
No, I don't think you'll manage that.
Aside from whether or not it actually works as humour (it's actually a very lame and unoriginal attempt) and whether or not it puts off entrants, there's just the small issue of the wider social and cultural context and how it references women in terms of sex. The majority of women I know (mostly non-bikers and in their 30's and upwards) would be gutted about this, and they'd argue that referencing women in terms of sex is something they've either actively fought - or at least been pissed off about - for many years. That's because they've suffered as a result of it - in their personal or professional lives, or both. Marketing like this just perpetuates a sexist culture, whoever's behind that marketing. You either get this or you don't. Harmless fun? That might have been the intent, but it's not the reality.
chakaping - MemberEven cutting back to basic medical cover, timing, land hire, marshal fees etc... I couldn't do it for less that 80 riders, unless the entry fee was £45 but that makes it not very good value for money for a basic event.
It's subsidised IIRC.
I wonder if a sponsors or some sort of sporting body?
TBF regardless of category names ,if you're doing an Enduro everybody assumes you're a bit of a ****** to start with 😉
I'm not offended as such but I think it's cheesy rubbish. I'd much rather just see age and/or level of experience sub-categories and for it to be treated as a usual occurrence like any other open race is- why make a 'thing' out of it being a women-only event?
I don't think I've been offended and outraged by something I read on the internet since at least yesterday. Anyone know what we're supposed to be getting pretend angry about tomorrow?
As long as there were podium girls awarding the prizes I'm ok with it..
I wonder if a sponsors or some sort of sporting body?
May be mis-remembering, but I think Tweedlove run it as a loss-leader kind of thing.
I know the HopeTech one at Gisburn in October was being subsidised by Hope.
Categories appear to be standard juniors/seniors/masters/vets on that one - and almost 100 entries already, so there you go!
Blimey multiple cougars!!
Odd headline OP since they didn't call anyone whores. Still posting the real categories/context wouldn't have been as much fun.
Not the smartest, but the snow must be starting early this year.
[quote=teamhurtmore ]Odd headline OP since they didn't call anyone whores. Still posting the real categories/context wouldn't have been as much fun.
Eh? The real category is "Enduro Whores". Presumably if I call you a pretentious troll I'm not actually calling you a troll? 😉
THM- the results page gives the category as 'Whore Women' - good enough for you?
[url= https://www.rootsandrain.com/race4479/2016-jul-23-air-maiden-maidenduro-innerleithen/results/ ]https://www.rootsandrain.com/race4479/2016-jul-23-air-maiden-maidenduro-innerleithen/results/[/url]
Someone posted on FB that they're just 'weary' of it. That kind of sums it up for me- "Really? That's the best you could come up with? Really? Nothing a bit less shit sprang to mind at all? FFS..."
It's just [i]so[/i] much 'meh'.
Not the smartest
Is this a callback to the phrase "self-aware"? 😉
Surprising that STW haven't done something on this, I thought they'd have been all over it like a teenage lad on a stash of Maxxis calendars.
Ok results page is bad, granted
Didn't bother to go that far tbh.
Aracer, no you would simply mixing up your grammar - nice attempt though, most wouldn't spot your error. But I am a bit of a grammar whore....
Really? That's the best you could come up with? Really?
Endurhoes?
Slapperduro?
not you would simply mixing up your grammar
I am a bit of a grammar whore....
As in you've completely f***ed it? 😉
[i]Endurhoes? [/i]
they could all wear the same fancy dress and call it Henduro racing.
Faster Pussycats?
Endurhoes? Slapperduro?
Surely "pro" would suffice? 😉
But I am a bit of a grammar whore....
Weren't you in the papers with Wayne Rooney?
But I am a bit of a grammar whore....
*reported*
But I am a bit of a grammar whore....
*reported*
*Reported.*
Do the entrants get a 20s head start if they ride a cove bike with a funny name?
[quote=teamhurtmore ]Aracer, no you would simply mixing up your grammar - nice attempt though, most wouldn't spot your error. But I am a bit of a grammar whore....
Because one qualifier is a noun and one an adjective? Yes I did notice that, but it doesn't change the point - and your noun combination doesn't have the same implication as the noun combination in the category name. If I called you a forum troll does that mean I'm not calling you a troll?
I think we might have actually hit on something here though. Is the difference in opinion down to different interpretation of the affect of the "enduro" qualifier? For example there's a difference between calling somebody a village whore and calling somebody a grammar whore...
if they ride a cove bike with a funny name?
*pushes buzzer*
There are no Cove bikes with funny names.
Is the difference in opinion down to different interpretation of the affect of the "enduro" qualifier?
Affect/effect obvs 😉
Thing is, there's arguably no difference. If I employ someone—of any gender—to whom I can dictate letters, calling them my "typing bitch" would be heavily rooted in male dominance, just as being an "attention whore" is rooted in female prostitution (which can be argued as male dominance again). These terms are derogative in connotation to varying degrees and as such I don't think they can be said to be divorced from the misogyny from which they came. Of course that doesn't mean people can't try to take them back and use them in a context of empowerment. (Though in the specific case of "whore" I wonder how much female empowerment it's actually able to provide.)
tpbiker - Member
As long as there were podium Men wearing speedos awarding the prizes I'm ok with it..
FIFY's
I can see that they were going for an edgy comedy angle, but I think if you're wanting to attract more women into racing, alienating the ones that don't go a bundle on being in categories named after terms that define women according to their sexuality is a great idea. Especially when one of them is 'whore'.
I like a lot of offensive humour, but I think there's a time and a place, and I have to admit those categories make me a bit uncomfortable.
Well said kayla!
[quote=Bez ]Affect/effect obvs
😛 I hate those words, as I have to spend far too much time working out which one is the right one to use - though in this case I'm going to claim it's a typo as the mistake is obvious 😥
Claiming there's no issue here, or that people are just whinging and being PC for the sake of it, is basically a very Trumpian kind of response: one built either on genuine ignorance of the wider issue, or a conscious and self-serving denial of it.
Aracer - it does but it doesn't matter. Glad you spotted your contraction though.
It reminds me (tangentially) of the JT case. IIRC he called Ferdinand a "BC". In that context it was the qualifier/adjective B that was the issue (correctly) rather than the noun C. And yet the offensive part could be published but the word that was deemed relatively inoffensive could not be printed or said. And yet had JT called him a C alone, nothing would have happened. Funny old game...
Why not simply:
Let the ladies manage the event how they like.
This isn't an event in isolation - it's within the context of a a sport that clearly has some gender issues.
hence the confusion & discussion.
wl - Member
Claiming there's no issue here, or that people are just whinging and being PC for the sake of it, is basically a very Trumpian kind of response: one built either on genuine ignorance of the wider issue, or a conscious and self-serving denial of it.
Nah it's built on years and years of STW hand-wringing
Weren't you in the papers with Wayne Rooney?
Your are a legend PP!! 😀
I agree with kayla and mrs toast.
I wouldn't enter that event. I'm not offended but I am uncomfortable with the "humour" if that's what it's supposed to be. I don't find it ironic or cool or feminist. It's a bit creepy, as well as stupid.
In answer to the OPs question, the answer is NO.
Just as an exercise how would our female contingent react if the organisers were lesbians? Would that put a different slant on the categories?
CG gluten free can be good but maybe not!
Just as an exercise how would our female contingent react if the organisers were lesbians?
The relevance of that exciting new trajectory of discussion being…?
The relevance of that exciting new trajectory of discussion being…?
....an opportunity to think of a snappy name for the race which rhymes "Bikes" with a derogatory term for gay women?
I got nothing.
All sounds a bit cheap and nasty to me. Who willingly wants to be labelled 'Whore' simply to define their age group, regardless of their sexual status. Maybe the under 16s Should be labelled 'Glitter'.
Claiming there's no issue here, or that people are just whinging and being PC for the sake of it, is basically a very Trumpian kind of response: one built either on genuine ignorance of the wider issue, or a conscious and self-serving denial of it.
There is another possibility that you've overlooked of course.
Hell no.
Firstly it makes me uncomfortable, and secondly this seems childish and like one mighty step backwards in more positive recognition for female riders.
It's irony/ a joke between women - get over it
Northwind and Rickon have it about right
Apologies all there were chores to do. To explain more fully.
When heterosexual men refer to whores this is generally deemed to be derogatory, outwith taking the piss between very good friends.
If a homosexual woman takes the same approach is this also derogatory? I'm unable to answer this as I'm the wrong sex, hence my question.
My apologies Bez that my idle curiosity was below your expectations.
Edit; I have little or no conscious social experience with the homosexual side of society. I may have friend who are homosexual but I neither know nor care if they are.
My sister found it funny but crude
Didn't we have this exact discussion last year too?
Imo, organised by women, for women, they can call the categories whatever they want. Just a bit of fun.
Well Mrs and Miss taxi found it a bit amusing in a slight smile sort of way, but not the least offended but they are a pretty bawdy pair of women. But they did find some of the comments on this thread absolutely hysterical 😆 I'm not sure they even knew people such as some posters on here even existed !!
male category version:
limp wrist
virgin
your mate dan
hugh hefner
Mens:
Babies
Virgins
Stalkers
Dirty Old Men
Well my wife wasn't impressed with my little experiment, turns out I was right and calling women whores hasn't suddenly become socially acceptable...
Anyway by way of an explanation I pointed her at this thread and the enduro maiden entry page. Once her disbelief had died down she asked a simple question...
Couldn't they just have gone with "wench" instead of "whore"?
TBH she's got a point...
But then she is married to a PC, handwringer, so we should probably ignore it... 😉
Kayla, Mrs Toast and WL +1.
It's not funny or "cool". It's crass.
It's a bit like having a male only event where the categories were 'Bald Bollocks', 'Chronic Masturbators' 'Sexual Prime' and 'Floppy Dicks'.
It's plain dumb.
I'm not offended - How could I be? I didn't enter they event, and I'm not a woman.
However, this does seem regressive: the organizers are literally defining competitors (in a women-only event) in sexual terms.
Would it be sexist if they did it an a men's event? Surely, the point is that they don't do that?
Granted, it's not super-overt 1970s sexism, but small things like this (and the objectification of women as "podium girls", or draped over sports cars/bike tyres in bikinis) have a cumulative effect in society and so do matter.
I have some time for the rationale that it's a group of women taking ownership of a derogatory term.... but really I just think that it's somebody (who's a bit tone-deaf) trying to be funny/edgy.
Seems fine. Go find something else to froth and handwring over.
As I said before, it seems some women DO find it at least purile/irritating and some find it offensive. Perhaps they're all frothing handwringers too but it does seem daft to alienate possible entrants in what is an undersubscribed section of our sport.
I think it's regressive to sexualise the age catogories in this way especially as it seems to be a successful and influential event in the mountain biking world.
[quote=oldtalent ]Seems fine. Go find something else to froth and handwring over.
that you can no longer say no dogs, no blacks, no irish - is that what upsets you ?
I look forward to you addressing all females as whores seeing as its "fine"