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Asking all you helpful folk on behalf of my girlfriend - she doesn't use these forums. We both have Transition Smugglers, mine is a 2016 model (115 rear travel with 140 mm Pikes up front), hers is the 2018 model, Sram GX build kit with Fox forks and shock so 120 rear, 140 front, 35mm stem.
She's about 5' 6", maybe 6.5., quite narrow shoulder to shoulder. Was recommended to go with the medium as was told the small was tiny.
The situation is that she really liked my bike before buying hers (which is also size M, 50mm stem), but she's struggling a bit to get the confidence and same feel on her bike. She started out on a XC type hardtail for a year before buying her own smuggler, and she was riding some pretty gnarly stuff on her hardtail in that time. So she's somewhat new to mountain biking, but has been at it for 18 months now, and we go out and ride quite regularly, so not at all a beginner, well past that stage.
-As far as I know, the top tube on the 2018 bike is slightly longer than my 2016 bike, and its built around a shorter stem, and slacker head angle.
-She cut the stock 780 bars down to 760, then after still finding them far too long, swapped them out for ones we borrowed off a friend which are 700mm (In doing this we had to also borrow a stem which is 15mm longer than the stock stem due to 31.8 mm bars versus the 35 bars that came on the bike at - 50mm). She has a lot more confidence on these bars for turning, but still finds something isn't right.
-Is it just a case of riding the bike more?
-I have tried to tell her its a different cornering technique to cornering on the hardtail and that you have to use your body a bit more due to the geometry.... not so much just turning the bars like on the HT.
I know all this is slightly vague, just looking for any kind of help for feedback, or just advice or help I can pass on to her. There have been moments on a recent ride or two where she walked small sections she would have ridden on her hardtail and we both know it, steep enough and techy enough sections, but still. What else to do or try next? Her hardtail was women specific so maybe that's part of it?
I know this is a bit of a word dump!!
Cheers
Some bikes just don't fit regardless of what changes you make. Does she feel that the tt is too long?
Swap bikes?
Second swapping bikes. The big difference between your bike that she likes and her bike that she doesn’t is the head angle is far slacker on hers. If she’s used to a more old school hardtail she’s going to find the steering feel very different. I can’t see such a slack head angle feeling good with a 700mm narrow bar. She might like the newer SBD bike once she’s got used to riding the older Smuggler.
Regards the not feeling right feeling -how are the shocks set up?
Saddle position, does she feel the bike is okay when sat orstood or neither?
Just to add that I got on better with mens bikes rather than the WS FS I had. As a matter of interest why did she not continue with the hardtail?
Second to getting on better with ‘male’bikes...but I am 5ft 9. I ended up taking 8cm off the stock handlebars as they were hilariously wide for my narrow shoulders, but it sounds like you have already tried it. Have you checked rotation of handlebars, brake set up and saddle front aft? I find that small adjustments can make a massive difference to overall feel, and therefore confidence. It also takes me quite a long time to get the adjust between hardtail and full suss if I ride them back to back- the full suss can feel horribly vague before it starts to plummet!
It sounds like it is too big for her, size guide here
https://www.transitionbikes.com/Sizing.cfm
I’m on a large and am 185cm. I am also male, so not entirely relevant...!
Frame is designed around 40mm stem
I'm about the same height as your gf and after having a quick look at the geometry charts I'd say the bike is just too big for her. Sorry!
As has been said, either swap bikes or, if that doesn't work out, if I were her, I'd be tempted to sell the bike while it's still worth something and buy one that fits. You can waste a lot of time, effort and money trying to get a bike to fit you when in truth it's either too small or too big.
Just my opinion obviously but I've been there and bought the T-shirt! It can be difficult to get a bike that fits as a 5ft 6in woman. It's kind of between a S and M on a lot of bikes but now with the trend for long TT it makes fitting even harder. It's frustrating as 5ft6 is hardly an unusual height! Good luck with it anyway.
She might just prefer shorter bikes, or the bike she's got is just too big for her ^
I'm 5'8" and quite gangly but I hate long bikes and I'm loads happier riding stuff on my (small) mk1 Switchback than I was on the (medium) 650B Rocket I had. Also, a FS isn't always a step in the right direction, if she was happy and sending it on a HT why not just ride the HT (or sell the FS frame and get a really nice HT)? No point riding something you're not happy with!
I'm just a little taller at 5'7" and there is no way I'd want the small, even the medium is a little shorter than I would choose, but then I do prefer a longer bike. So I doubt it's physically too big to fit her at 5'6.5", but it could be too big for her preferences. There's often not much between a bike feeling right or wrong, a combination of frame size, component size and set up can all add up to make the bike feel just wrong. Additionally modern geometry bikes with long reach, short stem, slack head angle etc do feel very different to more traditional bikes, this can sometimes take a bit of adjusting to. I don't know how much you/her want preserver with trying to make the bike work for her verses getting something else, but it would certainly be worth demoing a few bikes to get a feel for what works for her.
I just looked at the 2016 vs 2018 geometry - there’s a big difference, 18mm more reach and 5mm more stack on the newer one, which is basically a size bigger. And then 1.5 deg off the head angle too, which all adds up to a much more stable bike that takes more work to manoeuvre.
Wiminz proportions (narrower shoulders, shorter torsos) mean they should generally be on slightly shorter frames for their height anyway. the other thing is. Wimin are generally also far weaker in upper body strength meaning all that extra front centre frame length is actually even harder for most to control. This results a lot of the time in them becoming a passenger rather than the pilot. (and once you start feel like this, as a beginner, how do you think it'll affect your confidence?)
reach on a meduim smuggler is actully pretty long. too long for a 5'6" person IMO
I'm 5'4" on a medium transition SBG frame, the small would be tiny for her. You don't say what make/model/ geo or wheel size the hardtail is she's got, but she's probably struggling with the 'slack & long' thing if she learnt & got comfortable on something quite different (her other bike will have felt lighter & probably comparitively more manoeuvrable as you do have to 'muscle' these bigger bikes around a bit). 700mm is pretty narrow (even for those of us who happily rode around with 680mm for years) & on this bike she will benefit from (slightly)wider bars - say 730/40 & taking the stem back to 40mm ish. But yeah it is gonna take a bit of getting used to & she just might not like it!
“Wiminz proportions (narrower shoulders, shorter torsos)”
Actually, women don’t have shorter torsos for their height, the average and variance is the same as for men of matching ethnicity. People whose genetic heritage is from hotter countries tend to have shorter torsos and vice versa, as long limbs are better for being a human unless it’s cold and you need to reduce heat loss.
But I agree with everything else!
What crank length?
I've found that this can change feel of geometry a fair bit, as can saddle fore/aft when during.
The thing is, right, is that unless she's being paid to ride the bike that's too big/too heavy for her, why should she persevere with it? Riding bikes is supposed to be fun, not a chore, and different people like different stuff. You can change all of the gubbins hanging off the frame but if the frame's still too big it'll still be shit to ride.
It's ok to admit you bought a (subjective) lemon and move on.
I’m 5 foot 5, with wide shoulders and long arms, and both my hardtail and full sus are a small frame. Neither are “women specific”. After 10 years riding hardtails I got a Cube Stereo last year and as soon as I started riding it, I felt like I’d been riding it for years. I am also more confident on steep technical stuff. I demo’ed it through Cyclewise who advised me on frame size and set up.
The only adjustments I made to it were to cut the bars down a bit and change the saddle.
Note: the women specific version of my Cube does not have different geometry.
I would suggest that your girlfriend demos a few different models and perhaps a small frame as well as a medium one.
Based on my experiences with the wife's bike and similar complaints I would suggest 740-720 bars with the original stem. If it feels slow to turn then maybe +1 angle set could be used to steepen things up a bit (and maybe swap forks). If and as she adapts to this you can move back closer towards stock set up.
Have you compared handlebar heights on both bikes? It can make a huge difference to the handling if the bars are too high as you can't weight the front properly, particularly with the raised stack height and longer reach.
Did you say you put a longer stem on when you swapped the bars over? (due to been 35mm bars?)
I would put a sorter one on, same as before or even shorter.
If she likes you bike and comfy on it, measure yours from seat post to stem & seat post to Bars,
Then measure her bike it give you a very good idea of if reach is to long and if you can get close to your set up on her bike by putting a short stem on etc.
29" wheels? has she ridden 29" before? Not everyone likes/gets on with them.
Check brake lever reach etc.
Going back to the head angle comment, you could put an angleset in the other way around.
Once you've got it into your head that you don't like a bike, that's it. Let her ride yours.
I rode a large new geometry Smuggler in the US in November and owned a large old model Smuggler until July last year. They are designed with the same ethos but did feel different, and it took maybe 3 hours of riding before I gelled with the new one, whereas I got on with the old one immediately. The new large one was much bigger and less playful- I'm 5'10 and would at least consider a medium if I were buying one for myself, though I ended up enjoying the large a lot and would probably go for it.
I'd get her to try a small and your medium and see what she prefers. She may get used to the new medium but I suspect it's a bit big for her.
I always like to compare what someone who knows how to ride as apposed to the fashion of the day, probably because of riding MTB's for the last 34 years and seen some strange things come and go.
Take Sam Hill 5'9" he is riding a slightly smaller frame than the OP's girlfriend, 15mm less reach.
That tells me maybe the bikes too big for her body shape, longer reach with a slacker head angle the front wheel is moving away from her too far to get grip on the front tyre.
Was recommended to go with the medium as was told the small was tiny.
Maybe the shop had a medium in stock and didn't want to bother ordering a small?
I’m 5’4″ on a medium transition SBG frame, the small would be tiny for her. You don’t say what make/model/ geo or wheel size the hardtail is she’s got, but she’s probably struggling with the ‘slack & long’ thing if she learnt & got comfortable on something quite different (her other bike will have felt lighter & probably comparitively more manoeuvrable as you do have to ‘muscle’ these bigger bikes around a bit). 700mm is pretty narrow (even for those of us who happily rode around with 680mm for years) & on this bike she will benefit from (slightly)wider bars – say 730/40 & taking the stem back to 40mm ish. But yeah it is gonna take a bit of getting used to & she just might not like it!
^This is probably the most useful comment on here. Someone who's similar height, same bike, and giving decent advice.
I have tried to tell her its a different cornering technique to cornering on the hardtail and that you have to use your body a bit more due to the geometry…. not so much just turning the bars like on the HT.
This... Also makes me feel like she could do with a coaching session to get her to move about on the bike. If she's not moving her weight around, a long, low, slack bike is gonna feel hard work.
If she's turning the bars to steer, she's gonna oversteer into every corner.
If she's coming off a XC hardtails, all her weight would have been forced into the front wheel. She's probably never needed to consciously weight the front wheel, on a long bike - you need to do that.
If she's not over the front end, it'll feel vague. That's likely why she didn't like the 35mm stem. The 50mm stem would have helped with this, as it'll put more weight on the front. But the 700mm bars would have made the front end feel twitchy with a short'ish stem.
I wouldn't get an angleset on there, as it's masking a problem not fixing it.
Big bikes are great, but if you don't work them, they can be vague, difficult to handle and corner, even if they're amazing in a straight line.
TL;DR: Chop her bars to 750, get her a coaching session booked in, and ask the coach to look at her bike setup, as well as her technique.
Were you remembering to take their high heels into account when conducting your survey Chief?
😉
Rickon- thanks for being so dismissive of everyone else who took the time to make suggestions. 🙄
My missus isn't a fan of longer bikes. Her Juliana Roubion in small was quite a short bike, but it flew down rough descents like they were tarmac!
She's only 5'2" though, so not a direct comparison. I remember when she demoed a couple of SC bikes and they all had massive handlebars (760mm+), she hated it. We ended up settling on a 720mm bar with a 50mm stem.
Her current Trek Top Fuel has a 680mm bar with a 70mm stem and she was going to change it till she had a go. It works really well with the bike so she ended up keeping it and can still handle techy descents no problem.
Bike setup can be really fickle, especially if it's a big change from a previous bike.
[s]Big[/s]long front centre bikes are great, but if you don’t work them, they can be vague, difficult to handle and corner, even if they’re amazing in a straight line.
Flipside:
Long front centre bikes are shit. You have to really work to weight (grip) or raise (manual, pop and hop) the front wheel. They're difficult for beginners to corner but they make going fast in a straightline pretty easy even for relatively unskilled riders.
Let's face it Rick what we're really talking about here is front centre length rather than BIG.
Pick a size/handling trait and be a dick about it.
or
Accept some folk just don't want the same traits you do. and probably don't want to re-learn how to get the best of a bike with awkward new traits while leaving behind the ones they enjoy.
Let’s face it Rick what we’re really talking about here is front centre length rather than BIG.
That's exactly what I meant. I don't mean bikes that are too big for you, I mean bikes with a long front centre, reach, steep STA, and decent reach.
Flipside:
Long front centre bikes are shit. You have to really work to weight (grip) or raise (manual, pop and hop) the front wheel. They’re difficult for beginners to corner but they make going fast in a straightline pretty easy even for relatively unskilled riders.
I think we're aggressively agreeing here. Although the Smuggler isn't like riding a Mondraker or Geometron, it's long, but not excessive for 2019 for someone just over 5'6".
Accept some folk just don’t want the same traits you do. and probably don’t want to re-learn how to get the best of a bike with awkward new traits while leaving behind the ones they enjoy
Thats fine if you've not just spent upwards of £3k on a brand new bike that has those attributes, it doesn't make sense to sell it at a considerable loss when you could make it work for you with some personal adjustments.
Rickon- thanks for being so dismissive of everyone else who took the time to make suggestions
I'm not, I'm offering an alternative opinion that the OP can choose to take on board or ignore. For me, it's cheaper to adjust your riding style than sell a new bike and buy another one. If this was a 'what bike should I buy' thread - I'm sure the advice would be very different.
“That’s exactly what I meant. I don’t mean bikes that are too big for you, I mean bikes with a long front centre, reach, steep STA, and decent reach.”
That still isn’t true. If the chainstay is long enough you can stay centred and have tons of nicely balanced grip.
The answer to this problem is really simple for the OP - swap bikes. If you’re a better rider you’ll easily adapt to the SBG geometry’s longer and slacker front and she’ll be happy on your bike which you know fits her.
I ride a small 2015 suppressor and it’s a tad too small (medium is too big). I would ha e thought a small sbg would have been perfect. Look at the bar hight between the old and new bike to see if it’s the same. I’m running a 35mm stem and 740 bars at 5’7”
“That’s exactly what I meant. I don’t mean bikes that are too big for you, I mean bikes with a long front centre, reach, steep STA, and decent reach.”
That still isn’t true. If the chainstay is long enough you can stay centred and have tons of nicely balanced grip.
Not sure what's not true. I mentioned nothing about long stays. I personally like a long stay bike (my five29 had 455 stays), but find them a handful in tight corners.
The answer to this problem is really simple for the OP – swap bikes.
I completely agree with this too. Doesn't cost anything, and everyone wins.
“Not sure what’s not true. I mentioned nothing about long stays. I personally like a long stay bike (my five29 had 455 stays), but find them a handful in tight corners.”
You were saying that you have to get forwards on long front centre bikes to make them corner properly - and I was pointing out that you don’t if the rear centre is proportionally longer.
Ah yes! Totally agree. It's just that most manufacturers have thought 430mm is the golden number for chainstays.
My new bike is ‘only’ 1230mm wheelbase but the stays are 455mm long. It corners like nothing I’ve ever ridden! 65 deg HA and 42mm offset on 29” wheels gives plenty of stability without needing gigantic reach (455mm).