You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
My biggest problem with the limited fat bike riding I have done ( all rigid ) has been the uncontrolled rebound which I personally find disconcerting as I'm getting old and with dodgy vision and ..well ..the surroundings getting a bit shaky if I descend anything rough at speed . I always hear folk saying it's all about tyre pressures but I have experimented and find too low it's squirmy and obviously too high ...just horrid . I was also surprised that when you pump a Jumbo Jim ( for example) up to quite firm ( 15psi ? upwards ) for more back road / fireroad type rides where the surface is smooth , that the tyre feels just so "wooden " rather jarring in fact ...something a narrower tyre simply doesn't produce ime . The same pressure in my 29+ rigid bike is far more comfortable ...in fact I think my 29+ is more comfortable and capable than my Pugsley ( both steel) in nearly every aspect outside sand/pebble beaches etc . ( you may cry ..that's what they were designed for ! )but I just had an idea that fatbikes were some sort of machine that made everything comfortable and "doable" ..even when rigid . Perhaps it was reading Sanny's article on his ICT that initially gave me that idea . Otherwise I kept feeling I must be doing something wrong ..and still wonder tbh . I recently made the mistake of asking a similar question on some UK facebook forums and, as those seem frequented by many folk who shout"fatbikes forever" and similar , (no joke) , I received a number of replies indicating they were unhappy I was challenging certain statements they throw around regularly . I see numerous folk claiming to devour any terrain at speed riding rigid and that they leave long travel full sussers behind etc . I found this hard to believe because despite being limited personally by my own skills , it didn't seem to add up . I then scoured Youtube and elsewhere for any footage showing riders of rigid bikes descending even moderately rough terrain at moderate speed and found virtually nothing except one impressive contribution from a scotsman who posts on here , having fun in Spain . The same elsewhere on the internet .... virtually nothing . When I asked on FB fb groups to suggest relevant footage or links ..again I got zero relevant footage and plenty of replies such as " why do you want to know" and "fatbikers don't have time to take any videos because they are having too much fun / smiling too hard etc " Afterwards I kind of regretted challenging this belief ..I should have known better at my age tbh . Underneath it all I still kept feeling I was doing something wrong . I accept my bike is more exploration based from a geometry point of view and that a slacker / longer more trail oriented machine would be different of course but there's still the uncontrolled rebound on rigid that I'd like to have one last go at improving . I have been wondering about whether the large tyre inserts such as the vittoria airliner would help in reducing the rebound issues ? Has anyone tried this ? I suspect there will be a price to pay for in the way the ride feels and obviously extra weight . I do run tubeless already . Any advice /comments / suggestion much appreciated and hope I haven't irritated people further by questioning whether regularly touted statements are in reality often somewhat myths . Cheers, Bill
There are plenty of folks for whom "take on any terrain" means "anything from road to fireroad"
You'll see it in gravel bike/wheel/tyre reviews, where stuff is described as "capable of taking on some seriously rocky, chunky terrain" accompanied by footage of a rider descending a fire road.
Fatbikes are fun, and to be fair, you can ride all sots of stuff on them, but fast and rough is not their forte. Inserts might change the feel, but two big undamped balloons are never going to outperform proper suspension at speed
I've had one for a good few years (Canyon Dude with Blutos). Its been a winter hardtail on 7psi Minion 4.8's and was used a hardcore hardtail where the Blutos were its weakest link.
These days its wearing JJ 4.0's at 10psi is now my bikepacking/XC/gravel bike which does feel like its natural home. So much so, I've sold my gravel bike because contrary to what people say, they really do give you beating as soon as the terrain gets lumpy.
I don't notice the uncontrolled damping. I did used to notice the odd feeling that low pressure produced on tarmac.
I wouldn't want to ride rigid anything off-road so maybe add a Bluto?
It really really excels on loose rubbley terrain, on some descents I prefer it to my enduro bike at does seem to 'float' over baby head chunk. As soon as it gets proper rocky you feel every hit though.
I do wonder how good it would be with a Mastadon.
When they say 'ride any terrain' on fatbikes they mean things other than trails. They are great for snow and sand obviously but for me the best application is riding crappy barely-there paths across rough moorland. That opens up a load more exploration opportunities. I've been on two fatbike rides on trails, and they were as you describe. No better than a normal rigid bike on rough stuff.
I used to always say that I'd have the wrong tyre pressures at some point on any fatbike ride. Really soft handles rough stuff well, soaking up bumps, but it's hard pedalling on smoother stuff. I persevered though but was tempted to a newer fatbike that came with Blutos. I bought some rigid forks for it too, assuming I'd use those most of the time but actually, the Blutos made such a massive difference that they've hardly been off. The combination of tyre and fork pressure can be a bit fiddly but letting the forks handle most of the suspension means that I can run the tyres a bit firmer.
FWIW I'm running 4.4" JJs.
Also FWIW I still enjoy riding lots of trails without suspension on both gravel and 29er despite being 65 this year so I'm not sure that age is a factor.
I used to ride Glentress on my original, rigid, fatbike. It handled the trails really well. I tried it at Laggan and it was awful. As you say, the rebound off the rocks there was almost uncontrollable. I must return with the new Fatbike and Blutos by way of an experiment.
The two lads I know (recentlt met) that have fat bikes seem to reserve them for sessioning the steep loam at Black Rocks Lower (for anyone that knows it) when conditions get damp and you'd possibly be struggling to control anything with skinnier tyres
I don't buy the "ride anything, regularly overtake full sussers" stuff. obviously you sort of can - my first go on a fattie was on the Porcupine Rim trail in Moab, I did overtake some full sussers and one of them said "that guy was hauling ass!" Nice to hear, but that doesn't teach anything to anybody about me, them or fatbikes.
Rebound issues are real - get slightly out of shape in the air and you're in trouble dealing with whatever comes next.
Even at trail pressures (eg 9-10psi in 4" tyres) if you're heavy braking into steep turns you'll be understeering like mad.
If you get your tyres hard enough that these issues lessen, you may as well be riding a 29er with big heavy tyres. See Bernard Kerr's vids on his Pivot Les Fat - he must have 20 psi in them?
But! they're much less compromised than many people assume, they are bloody great fun, let you/make you ride in a different way in different places, and usefully take you out of the bike tech arms race - owning one means you're choosing not to care about ultimate speed/handling/performance. I've been on a few rides where I wouldn't have chosen anything else in retrospect - e.g. 100 miles of JennRide with bags all over - dealt with rocky, rubbly stuff really well over the distance. and a dark, snowy 35 miler with loads of stretches of deep mud in sunken bridleways wall to wall with frozen 6in-deep hoof prints.
Edit: basically a longer version of what honourablegeorge said!
I'd recommend Cushcore (but I'd probably recommend Cushcore if you had a sore throat) but they don't seem to offer anything for Fatbikes.
I think the problem with Fatbikes (and plus size tyres to a lesser extent) is that you need a fair bit of side wall support to get the benefits of the low pressure. If you use hefty sidewalls you obviously get the weight penalty which might be too much to pay.
When I was trying to make my trail bike work well in the snow I used 24" 45mm ID rims and 3" Halo Contra tyres run at around 10psi. I actually found it worked really well on snow free trails as well.
I think the weight per tyre was 1500g which was a lot but I shudder to think what that weight would have been on 26" or 27.5" rims.
Sorry, not much useful advice here other than give inserts a try if you can find someone making them for fatbikes. Or glue 3 Cushcores together but that would be an expensive experiment.
I find with a fat bike they're extremely capable until they aren't. The comfort and grip sort of lulls you into a false sense of security then you find you're going pretty fast and you discover two big tyres aren't quite the same as 150mm of dampened suspension. But then again that half the fun of them. Tyre choice and pressure do make a big difference though. Surly Bud on the front and Jumbo Jim on the back is a nice combo, I tend to drop the pressure until I can feel it squirm under hard cornering then add a bit.
I've always taken the "ride any terrain" to mean more it's ability to ride stuff that a 2.3 just can't - trail that doesn't exist etc. Where extra grip and tyre roll or spread is an advantage. But 20/30mm of tyre squish will never be more comfortable than 100mm+ of suspension travel.
As for steep bumpy stuff that's a little more about rider skill than the tyres, yes they wont be damped as well as a full sus and you will have to go slower - but when your having fun, who cares? You'll be able to go faster than a less skilled rider, but slower than rider if a similar level on an enduro bike. When I first got a fatbike I could ride it at a similar speed on my local trails to the full sus I had at the time (Strava bests broken etc), but not a chance at a trail center or rocky decent, as you'd expect on a fully rigid bike.
Pumping JJ's up to 15 psi is just nuts though... You wouldn't pump up a 2.6 tyre to 50psi so why are you over inflating a fatbike tyre? Tyre choice and pressures make a huge difference.
Fatfest last weekend we had 30+ riders of various abilities, some of the slowest were the most experienced and wouldn't ride of basic root drops. Some of the fastest only owned a fat bike and would cirtainly out skill me on my full sus on 90% of trails.
We ride ours on most things and happy to do so...home trails are usually smoothish forest stuff or granite blocks and things. Bumpiest was some of the limestone areas on the islands of Croatia. Change the riding style and away you go. If it gets bumpy then just pick lines and bobble on down.
The pressure thing sweetspot is obviously between self steer and overpumped, its just a case of trial and error. Cant say I've found the rebound thing to be an issue if I'm hones.
Salsa made a full suspension fat bike. By all accounts you really COULD ride anything on that. If I were rich I'd have bought one immediately, they looked an absolute blast.
15 psi was just a figure I plucked out of the sky for when I pumped them up firm for riding a back lane training route with my brother . It just seemed strange how uncomfortable and jarring the ride was but I guess that's physics and volume/ footprint etc related which slightly confuses me . As said I had expected a sofa like ride but haven't yet found a pressure that beats the comfort of my 29+ 3.25 shod regular ride although that may also be down to the larger wheelsize rolling over stuff more easily . I don't ride fast really anyhow but feel less confident letting the fatbike go on an unknown loose lumpy downhill gradient when compared to the 29+ simply due to the bouncing . I now realize perhaps a heavier front tyre like a surly Bud would probably be a better choice ..despite being a lot heavier ,as it appears they have less rebound . I may have a trial with the vittoria airliners as they are greatly reduced on Merlin at the moment and claim to fit up to a 4" tyre .
I genuinely do ride mine on just about anything I'd ride my normal bikes on- one of its first ever rides was all innerleithen dh and offpiste frinstance. There's some stuff that it's just no fun at, like, I wouldn't do the kinlochleven "enduro" trails on it which are just a chaotic rocky mess with streams in, or glencoe dh where to ride it with any speed I'm right on the edge of my ability and bravery even on a normal bike, and really fast rock stuff like say Rim Dinger at bpw would just be "go slow and miss the point" I think (though, I've not tried- it's just that the faster I ride that the better it is). Luckily I can't jump regardless of the bike so there's no real loss there! But by and large if I'd do it on a hardtail I'll do it on the fatbike and have fun.
But it's pretty much all about the rider, in that situation. I don't mean I'm awesome, I mean, I'm very tolerant of the bike being terrible at some of this stuff and I enjoy it because of that not despite it. And when it gets really silly I can still enjoy doing things like on a big rock crawler truck, creeping down super slow and feeling for grip and such, that's just something I really like. I think it just reminds me of being a kid where I was always trying to ride along walls or making obstacles in the garden or whatever. And most of all I'm really never trying to do the same ride as I would on another bike, I love it because it's so different. There's bits of trails that I've literally never touched on the full suss because it's all "take off on the first rock, land over there" whereas the fatbike is bump bump bump like winnie the pooh coming down the stairs, same trail rides so different.
As far as rebound goes, different tyres really do act very differently. Like, I had a 4.8 Bud on the front for a while and that's a very slow rebounding tyre, it really sucks up the bounces more than I'd thought possible. Really really good, but, I didn't like it much. Switched to the maxxis fbf 4.8 and it's much bouncier, which most of the time I just find more fun, chattering down trails or using it to make the front react just the same as pushing off a suspension fork. But on paper the minion's probably less good. The JJ's kind of in the middle. I was mostly just impressed with how much difference you can get into the ride with just a tyre. But it sounds like you might prefer a slow tyre.
I wonder how much rider weight plays into it- I weigh 10 stone, so even on rougher stuff I can use low pressures, 6 or 7 psi (and I'm tubeless which obviously helps). So there's naturally less rebound/ping in the tyres for me than for someone that needs to run more.
I have 2 bikes, road and fatbike...so Mtb with mates i just take my fatty...we cover the Surrey hills on our rides ( 20-30 milers) I'm not the fastest.....but I'm not the slowest either....in fact out of our group of 6...2 others changed their full suss to fatbike now thanks to me...if your fatbike is not working for you...maybe its just not your kind of ride....but I love my fatbike and have rode it regularly since I got it in 2015
Just for reference my tyres are so low it doesn't register on my pump which start from 10psi...but then I'm only 10st
Surrey hills is quite smooth though, in general.
I the point has already been made but there's a few bikes have been and gone from my shed but the Fatty is a keeper.
I’ve ridden the hire fat bikes at Coed y Brenin quite a lot. Trek Farleys. My times between the fat bike and my Trek Remedy are fairly close, for the entire “Beast”. But it’s just because the climbing on the fat bike was quicker than the Remedy. On the rockier faster descents it’s not even close.
And maybe that’s my lack of experience on fat bikes. Probably about 10 rides on full fat, but I’ve had a rigid 27.5+ for years….equally rubbish at descending rocky trails, but that’s not its forte.
If I had the space I’d have one for mucking about on, but I’d never swap my Full Sus for a fat bike…..got me thinking, maybe I could get rid of my hardtail and get a fat bike….hmmmm.
Isn't a 5" tyre at 10psi absolutely horrendous to pedal?
A 4" JJ at 10 psi is fast rolling juggernaut. Whereas with 4.8" Minions at 7 psi its definitely not.
I guess all bikes are tire dependant but fat bikes more so.
The JJ's roll so well that I sold my gravel bike because as soon as you leave the tarmac the fatbike is way more fun. I can't ride the fatbike down 'proper' trails as fast my enduro bike but I can ride it down the same trails at its own speed.
That's as long as its dryish, JJ's don't do slop...
Isn’t a 5″ tyre at 10psi absolutely horrendous to pedal?
I only run a 4.8 on the front, but honestly didn't notice any difference in rolling resistance from the 4" it replaced.
As with every fat bike tread we've descended into tyre choice.... JJ's being the marmite tyre (cant stand them myself).
Salsa made a full suspension fat bike. By all accounts you really COULD ride anything on that. If I were rich I’d have bought one immediately, they looked an absolute blast.
They were/are - I had a Carbon Salsa Bucksaw and it was very monster-truck like! Almost too good, you could ride daft things both up and down. Nowadays I have a regular trail bike but still keep a rigid fatbike for mucking about on and the odd bit of racing.
I put blutos on the front of my Farley for exactly the reasons the OP states - it gets terrifying if you hit a rough descent at speed.
Absolutely great with them though.
FWIW, I run 4.5” tyres (Barbegazi..sp?) at 5.5 PSI on the front & 6.5PSI on the rear and it still rolls well on tarmac.
I'd try a SUS fork on the Pug but it isn't easy to find anything suitable with the narrow headtube EC34 headset needing a straight steerer . I've never ridden a fatty with SUS fork ..perhaps it would make all the difference but I need the bike to have a 100mm bb and then mod it ( like I did on my Pugs ley ) because of knee pain. With loads of trial and error I got the Q factor down to 185mm from the original 215. Single ring only but can run 4.8's with no chain tyre rub .
I may have to try and acquire a used Surly Bud to stabilize the front end hopefully !
Here's the culprit .. all ready for sale the other day with touring kit and spares waiting for collection by a time waster who didn't turn up . If I can sort my issues I may well keep it now.
[url= https://i.postimg.cc/1Rn2GX6X/IMG-20230621-180156805.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/1Rn2GX6X/IMG-20230621-180156805.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
Stay the course kaiser. You were trying to sell it, it's very evident from your first post that the bike isn't working for you and you don't actually like it, and you've now shared a picture of the atrocity you're dealing with.
Don't fall for any sunk cost fallacies, this one needs flushing.
Tbh ...and I'm not meaning any offence.. but its definitely looks to me its the bike...it doesn't look like it's built for off road craziness, but casual riding.....
The Pugsley was never the most "rowdy" of bikes. I had the chance to ride one a few times and never fancied one. It put me off the Fatbike concept completely. I then got to ride a Salsa and was converted. My first Fatbike was a 907, much closer to a trail bike really. That was replaced by a Cube Nutrail which really does behave like a very grippy trail bike. Riding position looks a lot different to that Pugsley .
The reason I like the Pugsley is that it is comfortable and kind of just rides like a bike. It’s a fat tyred touring bike that you can do a bit of mountain biking, gravel riding and beach exploring on. I can sit on it all day and ride over all kinds of surfaces in comfort. As you say, it isn’t at it s best descending fast over very rocky terrain, but it will crawl quietly over rocks that would be painful on my 29ers, is great on very rough gravel and when I pump the tyres really hard it will eat up road miles too. I love it on Sandy trails and beaches and I used to commute on it when the weather was right so I could ride several miles of beach with a gale force tailwind.
Yes it was built for casual riding but I try allsorts on allsorts ! Funny how looks are so subjective ..On another thread relating to Q factor modification there were several folk who loved the look . Maybe "monstrous" in the eyes of more hardcore, younger riders . Age makes you care less for sure!