[Closed] Farnborough and Aldershot - MoD Land - Presentation

I'll be there, tweeted it as MtbTwix too if anyone wants to retweet.

Not good news, Such great riding in the area.

Not good and following on from being removed from Longmoor.

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/mod-land-access

I can't make that but will find/follow the facebook stuff. Bad news for all as this area provides some great riding.

I'd be interested to know if they intend to ban all cyclists or just those doing 'proper' MTBing. That land is used by a lot of folks and not just the likes of us. Without wanting to sound too confrontational (they do have guns after all) I'd also be interested to know how they intend to police it. After all, they've never really managed to keep a lid on all the dirt bike activity there.

For Longmoor, I was informed by Landmarc that the MOD would do their own patrols and issue a 2 strike policy. Warning first, then fine on the 2nd offence. .

planning to be there

I'd love to come but we don't get back from Wales until 6th
Good luck chaps.
I'd be interested on how it turns out, not least on how they intend to enforce any ban, as I don't think they have the resources to do it effectively. I normally go up there on my own midweek day times these days and there's not a soul around.....

I'll be there 8)

Hoping to get home from work in time for this. Sounds like it could be a pretty well-attended meeting if the number of people posting about it on social media is anything to go by.

I'll be there.

You might have this covered already, but is your local access forum involved/ sending someone to attend?

Does remind me to chase up the SDNP local access forum as they were taking an interest in the Longmoor area clampdown on cyclists after I contacted them a few months ago.

Hope you get this sorted out fellah's. It's been quite some years since I lived there, but seems wrong to ban public use considering the low amount that it's acutually used for training.

I did however nearly get run over by a big tank once, so perhaps they're going to pull out the public safety card!

Emailed Surrey local access group and a couple of papers to find out if they know anything/are going... Will post response if I get one 🙂

I'm going, all the MOD common land is a fantastic recreational resource. For such a crowded part of the country losing access to the land would be a massive loss.

Is there any reason why these MOD areas can't operate a red flag system in the way that Salisbury Plain does?

Speaking as somebody who has only ridden there once - shown round by some friendly locals - it would be a great shame if such an excellent location became off limits.
Can't make it to the meeting, as I have other commitments, but will keep an eye on developments.

Just seen this - I will try to make it

I am puzzled by this - the Army in region has been running down the barracks in Deepcut, Aldershot, Fleet, .. In fact the local plan for Aldershot shows a large swathe of the redundant barracks being turned into general housing in the form of a new town.

Why suddenly do they need the space? If new buildings are required to house the troops coming back from Germany, why are they being built in the SE of the UK? Also given the scaling back of the forces in terms of man-power why do we need allocate more dedicated space.

In any case it will be almost impossible to implement. The area is surrounded by large population centres with multiple access points. The attempts to fence off the region was initially meet with fences being cut until the access points were restored.

I suspect that this is because some one in the MoD/Army is trying to show that they are doing their job and suddenly it has all got out of hand.

Shall we just get together all the riders together to form a huge dossier of 20 years user evidence and apply for bridleways criss crossing all over the estate?

Is there any reason why these MOD areas can't operate a red flag system in the way that Salisbury Plain does?

Red flags is just for live firing areas really. If red flags were used whenever any kind of exercise was going on, they would be up almost the whole time.

If the army followed their own regulations for demarcating active exercises, that would allow riders to avoid blundering into them without closing entire swathes of the landscape at once.

Why the army don't do this is one of many questions that will hopefully be asked tonight. If indeed there is any opportunity for Q&As - we shall see.

The cynic in me assumes this is the first stage in a plan to sell off the land for development. As above, there should be less need for the land now for training purposes and the barracks etc are all being scaled back/sold off.

If cycling is banned, how long before it's closed to walkers etc too? If there is no access permitted, formal or otherwise, then presumably there is no precedent for rights of way to be implemented? No rights of way must surely make it easier to bulldoze.

As above, considering how crowded the area is we are so lucky to have this space on our doorstep. It would be a travesty for it to be lost.

Edit:

Shall we just get together all the riders together to form a huge dossier of 20 years user evidence and apply for bridleways criss crossing all over the estate?

A lot of the land is SSSI status so building would not be easy.

A lot of the land is SSSI status so building would not be easy.

I think tonight's announcement covers all civilian use, not just bikes.

Red flags is just for live firing areas really. If red flags were used whenever any kind of exercise was going on, they would be up almost the whole time.

OK, I didn't realise that would be the case. Surely though there are pockets that are used less than others?

Will the CTC be in attendance?

I think tonight's announcement covers all civilian use, not just bikes.

I'm pleased someone else has noticed this as I was worried that all the talk on here was leaning towards being about protecting 'our' interests as cyclists which is only natural as that's our thing, however there will be a much stronger voice of opposition if we approach this as users of the land in question along with everyone else.

I am planning to attend tonight along with 1 or 2 others.

Yes c_g many exercises (excluding live fire) do not use the entirety of whichever training area they are in, some use very small parts.

The whole blanket ban just smacks of the person at the top wanting the easiest solution - easiest to think of and articulate that is, not easiest to actually implement.

Don't know if CTC are attending, I've invited a local rep but she is currently immobilised after an accident on North Camp's most ludicrous piece of cycling 'infrastructure'.

[quote=offthebrakes said]I've invited a local rep but she is currently immobilised after an accident on North Camp's most ludicrous piece of cycling 'infrastructure'.

The contraflow bike lane along Park Road ?

The contraflow bike lane along Park Road ?

😀

I hate that crazy lane.

</end of hijack>

Stephen Lloyd of the Fleet News & Mail will be attending...

I'll try and video it and whack it on the web...

Has the local MP/s been invited?

I've seen some documents relating to Salisbury Plain and how they were going to make some new rights of way and generally increasing public access. Do you think I can find it? 😐

They seemed keen to engage with Joe Public, in fact the MX'ers were permitted to put up new signage on the Plain.

I'm pleased someone else has noticed this

Sadly the local MP is James Arbuthnot who is heavily involved in the defence part of Parliament and is likely to be Pro-MoD/Army. I also seem to recall that he is planning to stand down at the general election (but that may be me inventing stuff!) and as such does not have to listen to the voters!

Gove and Hunt are the other local MPs 🙂

Where's UKIP when you need them???

Apologies, I assumed from the OP that this was relevant to just cyclists. If the ban will be on all civilian access then that just makes it easier to garner support in it's opposition

Sorry tonyd, I was going to post a link to where I got my info from but typically I can't remember where I read that this was re all civilian use, in fact I'm doubting I did now so I'll keep my mouth shut until the speaker tonight has outlined who this is specifically aimed at 😳

Good to hear the local paper is attending.

Gerald Howarth is also relevant being the MP for Aldershot and Farnborough themselves (although many of the training areas themselves are just outside his constituency boundary).

Sadly

is heavily involved in the defence part of Parliament

Where's UKIP when you need them???

Hope that's a joke c_g 😉 UKIP are very much not cyclists' friends...

I know the ramblers have complained of 'over-zealous' landmarc wardens telling them they were not allowed to walk in groups on rights of way

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall for that discussion 😀

1 - You only need to give names if you are arrested. MOD / Landmarc cannot do this.
2 - Only a court can issue fines
3 - MOD land is public land.

Just come back from the meeting, basic synopsis: due to the influx of troops and machinery heading back from Germany bikeriding is only to be tolerated on roads!!! Some excellent opposition though and the main MOD representative wasn't even aware of singletrack riding at Caesers Camp! 😯

Couldn't go, away with work. What happened? Is my Saturday ride needing a reroute?

Feary; are you a lawyer /in the know on this? My understanding is that these are statutory byelaw powers and hence are enforceable if the powers decide to, including summary courts, etc.

The synopsis is if you're a cyclist then 'get off moi land' (apart from the tarmac road from twesledown to Aldershot)

The guys presenting were just the mouthpieces. Someone up high has decided that bikers are unwelcome. Fear of accident liability claims was given as one of the reasons.

I am sorry to hear that. 🙁

Thats terrible news, any detail on how they intend to enforce the ruling and when its effective from?
Shame they couldn't introduce a permit to ride system that would cover the liabilities.

I'm away with work as well so couldn't make it.

Is the ruling basically no off-road riding at Caesar's Camp, Tunnel Hill, Porridgepot Hill, Minley, Ash/Pirbright Ranges, etc, at all? Just like that?

Think I'll be moving house if so..

The synopsis was that we've not been supposed to ride on MOD land since the 1976 bylaws were introduced but due to returning troops & increased training we're more likely from now on to be confronted by the army or their representatives & asked to move on. I personally don't think things are going to change very much. We may get more grief during night riding season though if we ride through night exercises.

I did go to the meeting.

My understanding is:
Lots of mil coming back - 27000. Some will be inAldershot or Pirbright.
There will be more training on the land.
There will be more big vehicles at Long Valley and Caesars - they are big so follow the green cross code.
The Bye Law says no cycling - they are going to enforce this - because they have been instructed to.
They can only enforce with the resource they have.
They may warn you to move on - suck it up and do so.
If you're a muppet they will give you a warning off notice.
If you gather a few warning off notices the police will be informed.

So in the words of CTBM don't be a dick.

Oh and cycling is as bad as taking drugs and flytipping.
And we cause more damage than horses.
Oh and they felt ambushed by cyclists - they should have engaged with us then.

Or maybe i had the wrong end of the stick so perhaps.
Best get back over to Swinley and learn to like it.

It is the end of the world.

[quote=idiotdogbrain said]I'm away with work as well so couldn't make it.
Is the ruling basically no off-road riding at Caesar's Camp, Tunnel Hill, Porridgepot Hill, Minley, Ash/Pirbright Ranges, etc, at all? Just like that?

The offical line is yes, no off road riding is allowed on all those areas. Unless there is a right of way through the land and you're on that (or a "metalled road" which the Army legal people define as a tarmac road but others define differently).

And if you want to walk/run through the areas and there are six or more of you then you need to phone in advance and notify the bloke in charge 😆

Rambler/runner groups have been asked to leave because of the above, they're not happy either.

Yikes. So it wasn't so much a meeting as a public announcement. Feel sorry for the Trolls who've put so much work into the trails around there.

I presume the above will also apply to the dog walkers and horseriders too then? That's going to really suck if so.

[quote=idiotdogbrain said]I presume the above will also apply to the dog walkers and horseriders too then? That's going to really suck if so.

Horseriders require a permit to ride (this is the case now) and are not affected. Dog Walkers are also not affected (as long as there are not 6 or more of them in a group) but dog fouling was raised as a concern. They have been impacted by the Army closing off certain car parks but their access "rights" still exist.

Another one here who attended the meeting.

Firstly I was annoyed that the MoD only sent a retired Lt Col to give the presentation. He has no real authority to make any changes or to affect what is going to happen. His role as to tell us what decisions have been taken, not for feedback

Secondly I was annoyed that he said that he was very busy doing these presentations and that he would be doing his fourth in Winchester next week. Fourth!! They should be aiming to do that number every week in the entire community that are located around the Army training areas

My understanding of what happened last night. Troops are returning from Germany and from the operations in Afghanistan. This is a total of 27,000 troops. In the meeting they did not tell us how many extra were moving into the Aldershot area. I suspect not many, as the Army have been running down the facilities. In fact just down the road from the meeting is a large barracks which was sold by the MoD for housing.

There seem to be two main changes

1. The fact that the Army will be training using the vehicles developed for Afghanistan, which are very much larger than the the traditional Landrovers with poorer all round visibility.

2. Some one in the MoD legal team has decided that there is a very much increased risk of legal challenges if someone has an accident, either as a result of Army training or from doing an activity on MoD land.

In relation to the first point, the training land is already very heavily used, so adding more training to the areas is probably not going to happen. The type of training will change and as such access to the area while driving training is not a good idea. However this only really seemed to affect the Long Valley area, the rest is not affected

In relation to the legal advice, there is very little that can be done until the legal advice has been seen. I suspect that it does not exist as there is an outstanding FOI request for it. The fact that the Army team presenting last night could provide no figures for any claims made by anyone leads you to suspect that no claims have been made.

The main issue for the MTB community is that the MoD has changed their understanding of the 1976 Bylaws under which access is managed. Again this is via new legal advice (which again is not available even though a FOI request has been submitted). The main impact is for cyclists in that the 1976 Bylaws were drawn up before MTBing and as such cycling off road was not considered.

I suspect that given the fact that the MoD have not used the Bylaws to stop MTBing on the area and the fact that there is legal precedents about what is a road mean that that any legal challenge will never happen. The Bylaws are being revised which will require a consultation process, but when this is, how we get involved, what are the timescales is not known!

In practical terms I suspect that nothing will change and I will continue to use the land. The Army claimed to be unaware that so many cyclist used the land, a statement which was meet by loud laughter in the hall from all the user community.

Best get back over to Swinley and learn to like it.

It is the end of the world.

You know things are bad when Andy is considering liking the Stickler.

And another point - the cycling community did themselves no favours with the other users. The attitude of many cyclists and their need to dominate the meeting put the backs up of the many others who also use the areas and have equal concerns. We need to work with all users (including the MoD) to make sure we all have access. If we isolate ourselves then the MoD can focus on us. There are plenty of walkers who already think that the MTBers should not use the area.

I couldn't make it to the meeting . Really gutted by this news.
I hope the dog walkers also get thrown off ie, one rule for everyone, not just riders.

[quote=sadmadalan said]And another point - the cycling community did themselves no favours with the other users. The attitude of many cyclists and their need to dominate the meeting put the backs up of the many others who also use the areas and have equal concerns.

This is true. However the other users aren't the ones being told they're not welcome full stop.

And another point - the cycling community did themselves no favours with the other users. The attitude of many cyclists and their need to dominate the meeting put the backs up of the many others who also use the areas and have equal concerns. We need to work with all users (including the MoD) to make sure we all have access. If we isolate ourselves then the MoD can focus on us. There are plenty of walkers who already think that the MTBers should not use the area

Agree 100% with everything sadmanalan says, we lost the sympathy of many other users there last night sadly.

If we isolate ourselves then the MoD can focus on us.

This is a key point. The MoD approach seems to be to say different things to different user groups, and nothing at all to those they think don't deserve a voice. Quite what they are trying to achieve isn't at all clear - there was certainly no big announcement that I detected.

The presentation, such as it was, clearly wasn't aimed at an audience of MTBers and a large MTB presence took them by surprise. The Lt Col presenting realised this but wasn't able to think on his feet and ended up alternating between telling us bikes were a big problem and anti-social, and then claiming he wasn't even aware of us (to much derision).

A couple of times during the presentation the speaker started to blame MTBers for various things, then corrected himself to refer to BMXers instead. I assume he thought there were no BMXers in the audience either (there were). Someone should tell him BMXing is not a crime!

As others have said above, the true situation may well be "carry on as before", but the MoD are never going to announce that. Some constructive discussions were held after the meeting broke up, I expect TAG will be commenting after a chance for calm reflection.

All in all not an entirely productive meeting, and some MTBers did themselves no favours. But certainly a chance to see what is said about us when they think we aren't present.

If the MoD didn't realise that they need to engage with us before, I would hope they got the message last night. Ditto for the local politicians. Won't hold my breath though...

Was it mentioned about MTB racing. Gorrick etc...

[quote=scottfitz said]Was it mentioned about MTB racing. Gorrick etc...

Not specifically, although as the races are licenced events and provide revenue for the estate then it would seem unlikely that they would be stopped.

Was it mentioned about MTB racing. Gorrick etc..

That can carry on

So that will maintain the trail network if user drop off. If landmarc enforce it like they have done on Longmoor.

It was good to see so many passionate mtbers at the meeting in Church Crookham with the Army last night, whilst the atmosphere did get a little spikey at one point, lots of moderate voices were head and I hope it will act as a wakeup call to the powers that be at MoD and they will now engage with MTB groups such as TAG.

My main takeaways from the meeting were:

* The MoD have had legal advice that if they’re ever asked they must reply “cycling off metalled tracks is illegal under the 1976 byelaws and the definition of a metalled track is a tarmac road such as Bourley Road”
* Whilst they have to repeat the party line, they did say they would be enforcing it by requesting riders to move on. If the rider was disruptive “again and again” then a ‘warning off notice’ would be issued, if it happened again, another ‘warning off notice’ would be issued but it’d be up to the police to do anything more (they share the notices with the police)
* The primary objective of the meeting from the MoD point of view was to warn the local population about increased use by troops following the return of guys from Germany (27k in total, presumably not all coming to Aldershot) and more importantly there will be several new battalions in the locale who will have very large military vehicles
* They were particularly worried that their trainee drivers would be driving badly in 29 ton Mastiff vehicles with poor visibility and flatten a cyclist / dog walker
* The main impacted area will be the driving training area in Long Valley that is likely to see improved fences etc and enforcement (to be honest the area in question has limited mtbing and is quite flat)
* The Army are restricted as to which areas they can use as they’ve given a fair amount up to developers as ‘SANGS’ (when they build houses they have to provide green space proportionate to the residents) and they can’t use the red flag areas if shooting is going on
* There is a consultation on the byelaws that will happen in due course but they couldn’t tell us when or the route by which our views can be made known
* They are considering ideas about how they manage public access – zoning was mentioned. They will appreciate they will need to consult on these following last night.
* Whatever they think about mtbers it’s nothing compared with how much they dislike dog poo!
* 140 mtbers turning up made an impression (some good some bad!) on the MoD and they’re probably puzzling about how they deal with the issue

TAG has got the Lt Col.’s email address and we’ll be trying to engage him directly about a way forward (if nothing else to show him some singletrack so he knows what he is dealing with). We’ll obviously keep everyone informed and we’d welcome hearing from anyone who wants to be engaged.

Finally I’d like to ask all local riders to read the Code of Conduct that is on the TAG website – if we all follow this we will be able to reduce conflict to a minimum and hopefully avoid draconian measures.

Ewan (TAG Chair)

www.trailactiongroup.co.uk

The more I read into the byelaws review process, the more I'm convinced that this is behind it, not just for us, but for all the problems recently encountered.

Hidden away in part of the of the MOD Byelaw review process [url= https://www.gov.uk/ministry-of-defence-byelaws ]pages[/url] is an interesting comment:

• changes in de-facto public access need to be considered and incorporated in the byelaws if appropriate

and I feel that this is essentially a ‘land grab’ to ensure that the de-facto public access situation that has developed over the past twenty years is excluded from that review.

oh, and just to ensure that everybody knows what a metalled road is, [url= http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2002/2668.html&query=metalled&method=boolean ]its not actually what most people think it means[/url] - though to be more specific, the Byelaws actually refer to a road "constructed and made up for general use by vehicular traffic" which really isn't very clear in its intention!

I hope they will reconsider their views on providing information about upcoming exercises, many of us would be more than happy to avoid exercises and ride the areas that aren't in use at any particular time.

Whilst it is very easy to cite security concerns and very hard to refute them directly, if it was really an obstacle then surely the same would apply to Salisbury Plain.

Yet there is a monthly [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/salisbury-plain-training-area-spta-newsletter ]Salisbury Plain Training Area Newsletter[/url] published on the government website giving detailed descriptions of planned exercises and the dates, units and specific areas involved! Hard to reconcile this with what we were told last night. I wanted to raise it but wasn't quite sure of my facts.

• changes in de-facto public access need to be considered and incorporated in the byelaws if appropriate

and I feel that this is essentially a ‘land grab’ to ensure that the de-facto public access situation that has developed over the past twenty years is excluded from that review

I thought this too.

Well done to all who went. It was a bit far for me, but I assume we'll get the same for the Longmoor area soon.

Yet there is a monthly Salisbury Plain Training Area Newsletter published on the government website giving detailed descriptions of planned exercises and the dates, units and specific areas involved! Hard to reconcile this with what we were told last night. I wanted to raise it but wasn't quite sure of my facts.

To be fair to the lt col. the areas in that newsletter are quite large - we'd asked for some way of knowing which bit of say Tunnel Hill was in use - a much smaller area (we asked in the context of having a number that group leaders could call rather than just putting it on the web for all and sundry)

Fair enough Ewan, but they could just say 'Tunnel Hill is in use tonight, so are PorridgePot and Minley' and we can go to Caesar's Camp or Frith Hill instead.

That's not highly detailed but helps us hugely to avoid conflict.

Was the issue of demarcating night training with glowsticks as per the regulations raised last night? I know we've asked before, but it seems like it is worth restating pretty much every question TAG have put to them in the past, now that we maybe have their attention.

Yep, don't disagree with the points above, but the institutional memory of the IRA is probably going to make it a non-starter.

Hopefully we'll be able to meet with the Lt. Col in a smaller setting and explain that we're all keen to work around the Army and avoid conflict - we'll point out stuff like lack of glowsticks etc (we've done this before, but as you say lets do it again!)

As an aside, the British Army seems to be very good at hurtling around blowing things to smithereens, but perhaps not so good at engaging with the local population.

If public access (including cyclists) was retained then maybe their training could incorporate more aspects of engaging with the local population and therefore be more effective.............. 8)

Well, I think I'll carry on as normal.
When asked for my name, I'll be bob, bob hope. 🙂 because after all, the average squaddy doesn't care, and theres not much they can do to you anyway.

Well, I think I'll carry on as normal.
When asked for my name, I'll be bob, bob hope. because after all, the average squaddy doesn't care, and theres not much they can do to you anyway.

It's as good a solution as any.
Either that or mass trespass. I'm sure The Trolls, BOB, Gorrick etc could muster a couple of hundred riders between them. It's been done before......
I reckon, in actual fact, if people keep their heads down, it'll pass by pretty much unnoticed and in a few years everyone will have forgotten all about it.
I was stopped (well I say stopped, he shouted to me, I rode over to chat) on Tunnel Hill last year sometime buy a nice chap in uniform in a Landrover. I had a present conversation with him (seriously) in which he did admit that there was bugger all they could do short of erect a 10ft fence all around the land and post guards on it, and that he'd have stood not a cat in hells chance of catching me if I didn't want to be caught.
Like I said earlier in this thread, I only go up there alone these days, so all that really changes for me is that I'll not stop to chat anymore, I'll just point my wheels downhill and bugger off sharpish. 🙂

I think a lot will depend on who sees you. The STO (Safety Training Officer) who spoke last night seemed to be a lot more accepting of mountain bikes on army land than the Lt Col.

I suspect that cutting down on the night riding would also be appreciated...

Well, I'm just putting on some sun cream to do a nice sunny session over at Caesars 🙂

Secondly I was annoyed that he said that he was very busy doing these presentations and that he would be doing his fourth in Winchester next week

Any idea what the score is in the Winchester area? I'm not aware there's any biking on military land in the vicinity (which is probably more worrying than having it potentially curtailed!)

We should all just carry a bag of [url= http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Moralibo ]Moralibo[/url] sweeties to bribe the squaddies with 8)