[Closed] Fake Britain - carbon bike parts

I think Windwave originally found out about this when the 'warranty' returns started rolling in...

I guess it's the risk you run with buying from Ebay.

One way to avoid it would be to buy from reputable retailers.

knock off carbon parts what a shock, awaits first request for a link to the seller and the price list 😉

Saw something on Friday morning tv about fake helmets as well.

Bought via Amazon for not that much less than RRP. Failed the safety tests spectacularly.

Interesting, I don't buy carbon bits off eBay myself for this reason.

Funny enough I once stopped to ask a rider if I could help - because he was looking confusedly at his bike beside the trail.

"Not unless you've got a spare handlebar."

His FSA bar had snapped cleanly beside the brake lever - this was years ago, but then my mate's FSA bar (legit) snapped too. And an FSA carbon seatpost I got off the bay quickly wore through to the internal metal core. That one might have been a fake but it was six or seven years ago.

Apparently the carbon handle bars "..would make it much lighter and perform better"
Course they will!

I can put the programme on youtube if anyone's interested.

motorbike helmets too on friday jam bo some of them were shocking.

[quote=trail_rat ]motorbike helmets too on friday jam bo some of them were shocking.

saw the start of that but had to go out. the grind test looked like it was going to interesting...

I assume every branded carbon part on ebay is fake.

So I either buy stuff I have confidence is going to be okay (normally direct from the carbon maker who is not putting any fake logos on) or from a UK store and make sure the parts check out when they get here.

eBay is full of knock-off carbon, must be the majority of the branded stuff now. Look for sellers who only sell £300+ SMP Carbon saddles for £80 a go. They just buy them from AliExpress and they come with fake packaging so the people who buy them probably don't even realise.

I bought a fake 3T fork off ebay, but I realised before the seller sent it and got a refund. He seemed genuinely surprised though.

but I realised before the seller sent it and got a refund. He seemed genuinely surprised though.

His FSA bar had snapped cleanly beside the brake lever - this was years ago, but then my mate's FSA bar (legit) snapped too. And an FSA carbon seatpost I got off the bay quickly wore through to the internal metal core. That one might have been a fake but it was six or seven years ago.

So we cant really blame the Fakers for the failures - If you reverse engineer something that is flawed to start with then that's what you end up with. Rubbish in, Rubbish out. I blame FSA for not building something worth copying

FSA, Ritchey and 3T seem the most common "fake" parts on ebay. Most of the time the sellers say it is a copy and most of the buyers just want something cheap with a brand name on so more often than not you know what you are getting in to... and it is up to you if you trust it!

Always look surprised when caught out....

Yeh, maybe.

He was also selling a real Cervelo branded one and he changed the description when he relisted it, so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I've seen a good number of 'fake' bike frames and parts come through my workshops, some new but out of alignment, some broken after failures or crashes, including some fake "big name" branded frames.

When we've inspected them internally using torches and dental mirrors the insides of the frames have been absolutely shocking with bits of ??? composites, string, paper, bladder, filler, epoxy glue, even straw and fibreglass in there

When we've inspected them internally using torches and dental mirrors the insides of the frames have been absolutely shocking with bits of ??? composites, string, paper, bladder, filler, epoxy glue, even straw and fibreglass in there

What did you expect to find?

Epoxy is the resin, the 'plastic'.
The bladder is needed to consolidate the laminates, the inside of the frame is pressurised and the outside is compressed to squeeze out the excess epoxy to maximise the fiber to resin ratio and minimise excess weight.
Fibeglass is often used as it's stronger and more durable in certain aplications than carbon fibre.

[quote=esher shore ]I've seen a good number of 'fake' bike frames and parts come through my workshops, some new but out of alignment, some broken after failures or crashes, including some fake "big name" branded frames.
When we've inspected them internally using torches and dental mirrors the insides of the frames have been absolutely shocking with bits of ??? composites, string, paper, bladder, filler, epoxy glue, even straw and fibreglass in there

what did you find when you inspected genuine frames that had broken?

What did you expect to find?

Epoxy is the resin, the 'plastic'.

EBay, China, Fake.

Three words that generally go together.

It's the same with almost all products, bike or otherwise. Problem is they are convincing and many actually work "OK" for a bit, like phone chargers, phones, even bike lights & components. It's only when they go wrong you find out how poorly and dangerously they've been built, and just hope you survive the failure.

A lot of industry in China is built around making copies of things very cheap and selling back to the west, and there is no way to enforce international copyrights and patents there.

That's http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04v62f5/fake-britain-series-5-episode-16 on iPlayer, btw.

I've looked at buying carbon F&F a few times from ebay but always bawked. Funnily I'd NEVER buy carbon bars from ebay. Always Easton anyway.

[i]That's http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04v62f5/fake-britain-series-5-episode-16 on iPlayer, btw[/i]

Yep, it's the first section so you don't have to put up with the bit about fake sausages and pigeon breasts.

Cheers for that. Is interesting. As for real FSA bars snapping, well so can any bar, carbon or not. What the show makes a point of is they should pass the EU safety tests and FSA claim theirs do and test the fake ones in the programme which fail catastrophically in normal stresses. A genuine bar will more likely snap when crashing or some time after a big whack and likely in one spot, not multiple places at the same time.

What makes it more tricky on ebay is there are sellers who set up accounts to make them look like they are based in the UK, or resellers from the UK who buy Chinese fakes. It's most likely it all comes from China as they are very good at making genuine looking copies, and very quickly. I worked for a mobile phone company where the Chinese would have fakes on the market before the real ones were even released as they get hold of prototypes and specs that are submitted to authorities, and the fakes really did look like the real deal.

Anyway, more disturbing is the fake sausages. Next they'll be telling me bacon is fake! 😮

@thisisnotaspoon

you don't expect to see big globs of actual epoxy glue (not resin impregnated into carbon fibre cloth) inside a frame, or bladders left in place, nor the other items I mentioned.

If you look inside a quality frame the carbon fibre should be very well finished internally, not very rough / lumpy / random pieces of torn cloth everywhere (i.e. off-cuts)

I've not seen quality carbon fibre cycle frame manufacturers using fibreglass as there would be no point, just adds weight and reduces strength. Its used by knock-off manufacturers because its cheap.

from Dan@windwave on twittet this am;

[i]the day Fake Britain airs we get a FAKE FSA Plasma bar back with a massive crack, fortunately for the rider the bar didn't completely fail[/i]

I live in Malaysia and have done for close to 8yrs, here FSA, Ritchey, Zipp, Giro, Time, Ridley, Pinarello, Colnago, SPesh, Chris Queen (really) can all be bought, campag wheels, etc.

Minefield....can of worms etc.

Even the shops here sell fake parts....(as replica).

Shiny

Just remember, they're just generic carbon parts that they then put the fake manufacturers stickers on to make them more saleable.
I bought a what I thought was just a basic cheap carbon road frame/forks of ebay several years ago, I didn't know it was a copy/mould of a Pinarello Prince until my mate told me.
The frame and myself are still in one piece, I have done around 4000 miles on it including racing.

Fakes/copys sometimes fail and so do big brand names products fail, its almost down to luck, but when buying anything carbon, just give it a very good check over before use, if you can.
There are far more pictures of brand name fails than fakes!

I've not seen quality carbon fibre cycle frame manufacturers using fibreglass as there would be no point, just adds weight and reduces strength. Its used by knock-off manufacturers because its cheap.

It doesn't 'reduce strength' though (or in some cases even cost less), carbon fiber produces very rigid structures due to it's stiffness, but glass can have a higher UTS. So parts that need to flex (like handlebars, seatposts or bike frames) will probably have some glassfiber in there to give it the required properties, 100% CFRP products tend to just snap.

fake fizik saddles are popular too. As are renthal stems, but with the latter they do them in better colours 😀

I went into my LBS a few weeks ago and in the workshop was a Cervelo in white with World Championship bands, full Zipp parts. Looked dead smart.

The whole lot was fake. A guy had bought it off ebay for about £2000 and taken it to the shop for something unrelated, can't remember what. They'd picked up on it by being geeky - just little things like the rear mech cable exiting in the wrong place for that model and a few other little signs that only a real bike anorak would have picked up on. Once they dug a little deeper though, it all looked wrong. Model numbers not matching what the genuine item actually looked like, no serial numbers; it had knock off bars, stem, wheels...

About the only verifiable components were the Shimano Ultegra groupset.

The customer was devastated. Ebay didn't want to know, the seller disappeared. The buyer had paid cash on collection so had no comeback at all.

fake sausages

Screw the fake carbon....What the ****??!?!?

[img] [/img]

Got some for my dog, he was devastated when he realised.

I went into my LBS a few weeks ago and in the workshop was a Cervelo in white with World Championship bands, full Zipp parts. Looked dead smart.

A guy had bought it off ebay for about £2000

Depending how old it was, that's on the close end of a serious bargain. I know someone who tried to buy a "too good to be true" bargain recently and got scammed out of 6000 quid. Chances are if you see something too good to be true, it usually is. I had a Chinese carbon road frame and it was pretty much spot on but I didn't get a fake, I got an open mould frame from a well regarded reseller.

eddie11 - Member

fake fizik saddles are popular too. As are renthal stems, but with the latter they do them in better colours

I've been in carbon places to visit where they were happily making rims with HED and Zipp written on them.
"You make for these people?" we would ask.
"No, just copy product for Chinese market".

We walked.

I knew it was someone off here's dog they were interviewing 😀

I've been in carbon places to visit where they were happily making rims with HED and Zipp written on them.
"You make for these people?" we would ask.
"No, just copy product for Chinese market".

This is what really happened:

[i]I've been in carbon places to visit where they were happily making rims with HED and Zipp written on them.
"You make for these people?" we would ask.
"No, just copy product for Chinese market-hang on,[b] HEY are you that lead singer from the band REM?!!!"[/b].[/i]

it's en an issue in the bike trade for as long as I remember, mid to late nineties it was ritchey stuff and raceface bars were the first ones that seemed to flood the market, wtb greasguard headsets stick in my mid to and they were coming into our workshop on a regular basis and were wearig through steerers as they were so badly made.

2004-2006 it was fake king headsets and Thomson posts, the Thomson posts were so good that you had to pick them up and look inside as the internal profile was round not oval and they weighed a fair bit more.

Ive seen the results of a crashed Giro helmet which basically turned to dust on impact.

are any of those generic carbpn frames any good?

Yes, many of them are - lots of threads on here (and elsewhere) about them.

The summary though is buy from a company that has a good rep and doesn't try to pretend its products are from another brand eg Pinarello, Cervelo, etc.

Fake Helmets are all over eBay. e.g.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bicycle-Helmet-Bike-Cycling-Adult-Road-Carbon-EPS-Mountain-Safety-Helmets-/261638194832

Ooer - looks like the carbon FSA crankset I bought via Ebay from Taiwan may be fake. When I received it I inspected it closely and it looked too well-made to be fake but them what do I know? The seller had thousands of feedbacks and he told me it was an unwanted "take off" from a new bike.

But it's the right weight and it's done a brilliant, reliable job for the last 2000 miles so maybe it's the real thing...

@thisisnotaspoon

not sure about your claims of fibreglass being used in quality carbon fibre frames?

I've spent a considerable amount of time talking to a global brand manager (1 of 6) for the World's largest bicycle company, who spends much of the year in Taiwan overseeing production processes. This company manufactures for many other "brands" in addition to their own products.

This guy knows every small detail about their frame manufacturing, its a real experience talking to him about bicycle frames whether carbon fibre or aluminium.

I was told their frames use 100% torayca carbon fibre and they actually manufacture their own cloth in their C-Tech facility using torayca filament and their own proprietary resins in a 60/40 cloth/resin balance.

He said that other smaller manufacturers will often mix brands of carbon fibre and use more resin to save money, which ends up being a heavier and / or weaker frame.

I have no reason to doubt this information.

Not doubting your mates spiel and I'm sure he's telling you for all the right reasons but...

GT's Grade bike uses glass fibre seatstays.

http://road.cc/content/news/121785-first-ride-gt-grade

super skinny glass-fibre seatstays that flex noticeably when you press down hard on the saddle. This, along with the seat tube and top tube ‘tuned’ to offer a claimed 11mm of deflection,

I've spent a considerable amount of time talking to a global brand manager (1 of 6) for the World's largest bicycle company, who spends much of the year in Taiwan overseeing production processes. This company manufactures for many other "brands" in addition to their own products.

Taiwan don't make many carbon frames for mass production. It's mostly done in China except for a bit of production at Great Go.

Biggest manufacturer is XDS in Shenzhen.

Someone on facebook was really excited about the "s works" frame they got from China, carbon frame fork and rims, bought it knowing it was fake "but made from the same moulds" had enough money for dura ace components, but knowingly Importing a fake frame.

What amazed me was:
Knowingly buying a fake
Being proud of it
Not understanding the trade mark infringment is criminal.
No understanding of the legal CE testing requirements.
Not understanding the risks involved.
... And proudly shouting about it on facebook!

If i imported fake frames I would face criminal charges. What if someone got hurt or killed? It's one thing for a crook to do this to you, but to do it to yourself is so super dumb.

In the shop we get people who don't understand mechanics. Yesterday someone complained their gears didn't work after we serviced THE BRAKES. Illustrating they dont understand things "but the gears were fine before I bought it to you" . When folk can be this thick, a workshop can get blamed for anything, so it's now our policy to refuse to work on on fake bikes.

And finally. When you buy a genuine frame, it's not just a frame you buy, its a warranty, UK back up, research and development, CE testing, a quality product that won't kill you. You are also supporting your LBS, so if a consumer steps outside euro counterfeit laws, and euro safety laws to save a few quid... They can step out of my shop too.

support your lbs

Agreed Charlie, it's easy to label something like that as Darwinism in action - but that's exactly what it is!

People who buy "fake" anything need to take a long hard look at themselves and why they are doing it.

Cheap stuff, fine. I like a bargain as much as anyone, but why's it got to look like you spent more?

[i]When folk can be this [b]thick[/b][/i]...

therein lies the problem. One that will never be solved!

I was told their frames use 100% torayca carbon fibre and they actually manufacture their own cloth in their C-Tech facility using torayca filament and their own proprietary resins in a 60/40 cloth/resin balance

Maybe I'm wrong, I've not cut up enough bike frames to see, but I'd be surprised. A lot of sailing parts are carbon/glass mixtures, and the manufacturers are happy to shout about it. I suspect it's a market expectation thing, paying £2k+ for a bike frame you want it to to be dripping in as many buzz words as possible. Whereas sailors maybe as an industry know what goes into the components more, and a lot of kit is advertised as carbon/glass because most know that the 100% carbon parts aren't durable enough. So:

Engineer : The frame 60% T400, 20% S-Glass for flexibility in the top tube and 20% T700 for BB and headtube stiffness.

Marketer : The frame uses T700 for stiffness and has a tube layup to make it verticaly compliant but lateraly stiff. 100% of our carbon fiber is from Toray.

And you wouldn't deliberately use more resin, but taking short cuts in the curing process could result in more being left over. Simplisticly the composites layed up in the mould and then squeezed (and vacumed)to draw out as much of the resin as possible. How long you leave it being squeezed before you put it in the oven to cure will influence how light the frame ends up with only minimal effect on it's strength. The downside is that means your mould is in use for longer so you're making less frames. That's wehre I suspect a lot of the the 'S-works' and other top frames come from either by design or just natural variations between frames, cetainly remember reading some manufacturers weighed every frame as it came off the poduction line and split them allong the range so the top end bikes got the lightest frames and XTR groupsets, the heavier frames went into lower end LX builds.

Whereas sailors maybe as an industry know what goes into the components more

When folk can be this thick...

Given that setting up gears is the quintessential 5 minute job, if you're able to set them up to perfection yourself [i]why didn't you?[/i]

Never touched STI's/road bike gears before. Wanted to treat myself to a proper bikeshop set up. Funnily I can do it very quickly and smoothly by comparison. Tonight I'll be finishing my re-powdercoated full sus frame. I've saved myself circa £100 extra doing it myself and I know its a labour of love/done and right.

Wow, you are teh awesomez 😛

Its hardly rocket science though. Is it.

Then why "treat yourself to a proper bikeshop setup" (sic) if
A) it's really easy, and
B) shops are all rubbish (or at least not as good/thorough/gentle and loving as you) anyway?

Same as you deciding to eat out rather than cook tonight, same as you deciding to give your car a full valet, treat yourself, or bother to do something yourself. It was my first brand new bike since 1988. So I thought why not?

Most riders use bikeshops to fit new parts mostly because they don't want to get their hands dirty or trust themselves. All of them could do the work themselves if need be without a condescending attitude that some have to punters.

Most riders use bikeshops to fit new parts mostly because they don't want to get their hands dirty or trust themselves. All of them could do the work themselves if need be without a condescending attitude that some have to punters.

I'll be honest with you,and I know that the interwebz isn't the best at conveying nuances, but I'm only detecting one condescending attitude here.

Not sure about that, maybe less marketing smoke+mirrors in the industry in general though yes. As much weenie-tech ism among boat-owners and cyclists though, as many less-then-athletic guys with carbon/tech everything on their race boats

I dunno, maybe in some classes more than others, but in general I reckon dinghy sailing is less snobish about equipment, possibly because there's nowhere to hide poor technique or fitnes as everyone's out to race, there isn't a cruising/group ride equivelent, everyone's out every sunday racing for 2 hours. That and the handicaping system mans if you've got £800 to spend you can get a competative Laser, if you've £20k you can get a foiling moth.

The fast guys still have the fast boats dripping in new kit, but it's more for marginal gains against each other, the middle of the fleet guys aren't so much affected by it. That and the majority of one-design classes puts a limit on what you can realisticly spend.

Would a 'one-design' class work in MTB'ing? Rather than have 4 classes for fun, sport, open, elite etc. Have 28lb hardtails, 20lb hardtails 28lb FS, unlimited. Might discourage ATGNI at races and encourage more 'grass roots' / 'have a go' racing. The fit guys and the pros could fight ti out in the top class, and everyone else would get the race they want without worrying about equipment and would probably sort themselves into evenly matched classes anyway (as no one wants to be the ATGNI guy).