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Many thanks for the support expressed on this thread - much appreciated.
To clarify a few things....
The LBS is not Nirvana - I ordered the frame via another shop before they picked up the Evil brand. They are, however, showing an interest in how this plays out, for obvious reasons.
The LBS involved is well aware my contract starts and ends with them, not Silverfish or Evil, and have said they will see me right. They (and I ) are also aware that in the first 6 months of ownership (which this is within) the burden of proof is on them that the damage is not a result of a crash or impact, not me to prove that it wasn't.
I regularly ride with one of the staff so they are very familiar with where / how I ride, and as such, believe that the damage being as a result of an impact is highly unlikely. I can't fault their approach to date and fully believe their intention to resolve this to my satisfaction. You could ask, therefore, what's my problem? At this stage - none as I still believe that it will be resolved properly, hence my postings here and on MTBR being purely factual. Once it has been resolved, however, I fully intend to update both threads on the details of the outcome, and my feelings on the matter.
How are we supposed to engage in wild speculation if you keep calmly clarifying things like that? 😀
How are we supposed to engage in wild speculation if you keep calmly clarifying things like that?
😆
You could ask, therefore, what's my problem? At this stage - none as I still believe that it will be resolved properly, hence my postings here and on MTBR being purely factual.
Chapeau to you sir!
Sounds like you've got a good relationship with your LBS, and I hope everything sorts itself out satisfactorily for both parties.
In the days of "everything is cheaper on the Internet", patience seems to be an ever rarer virtue so I applaud your position.
Don't be coming back here with your well reasoned point of view,lack of CAPITALS,realistic expectations and full grasp of your consumer rights.
We're only interested if it ends with bombers,weeing in shoes and preferably threats of pyrotechnics directed to small outbuildings.Ideally whilst being factually wrong.
No go away and think about what you've done here.
Rorschach (disappointed of Waleslandshire)
hope it all works out heihei
when you're back on the dirt we can do Surrey Hills Followingfest.
Matt - was it you riding an orange one with sprog past Abinger cricket pitch this afternoon??
No, mines's black.
Bugger maybe this is a black frames problem! I could be next!! 🙁
Have just been out to bike shed check the frame - all stays present and correct.
Phew.
I'll check again in the morning.
Tis dark tho......
Matt, I'm on my way round to your shed with a lump hammer 😆
Bike has survived the night. @cheez sure you went to the right house? (oops).
This has now been resolved, from my perspective at least, so I thought I'd update the thread.
The first thing my LBS did was to seek a second opinion - in this case they used Carbon Bike Repair in Dorking. They also viewed that it was a result of impact damage, but rather than a direct impact, felt it was a result of a rear wheel impact twisting the rear axle which in turn put and outward flex on the seat stay, causing the crack. This view was supported by some damage to the rear rim, which I hadn't spotted. They also noted how thin the seat stay was at this point, being able to deflect the carbon with a modest amount of pressure.
When the replacement rear triangle arrived it also appeared very thin in that area, deflecting under thumb pressure and "crackling". This was duly sent back to Silverfish and a 3rd rear triangle dispatched. This one doesn't deflect, and is now fitted to the bike.
The result of the above is that the LBS opined this was definitely a warranty issue, so have replaced it free of charge. Whether or not Evil / Silverfish take the same line is unclear at this stage, and obviously between the LBS and them, not me.
As such, I'm now happy - I've got my frame back within 2 weeks at no cost to me. However, it's worth highlighting that this wouldn't have happened without the support and effort of my LBS, which is Head for the Hills in Dorking. They were willing to back their customer and seek a second opinion, which then led them to believe the first rear triangle wasn't up to the job. They also loaned me their demo Nicolai (stunning bike btw) to keep me out on the trails last weekend. I should also mention Simon @ Nirvana has been v helpful and supportive, and given he is now the Evil dealer in the area, he's keen to see riders have confidence in the warranty so has watched this with interest.
The key question to me is: would I buy another? At this stage, I don't know. The Following is without doubt the best bike I've ever ridden, and I would be gutted not to ride it. Part of me also wants to ride an Insurgent. I love the fact it's come from a small boutique brand, and accept that because of their size, riders are, to a degree, part of the R&D process. That only works, however, if you are willing to support your customers with a 1st class warranty and back-up, and that doesn't seem to have happened here. Evil have a killer product on their hands with the Following (and with Bike magazine currently testing the Insurgent, possibly with that too), but customers aren't going to buy them if they question the support.
The flip side of this story is that it's a great advert for the LBS. I'm quite certain this would have been a much more painful process and perhaps with a different outcome, had it not been for them.
When the replacement rear triangle arrived it also appeared very thin in that area, deflecting under thumb pressure and "crackling"
❗
Great to hear that you've had a positive outcome.
For the rest of us riding the same frame, any chance you've taken a video of applying said pressure to the affected area, and you could post it on here so we know exactly what we're looking for? I'm certain the MTBR forum would benefit from this too...
Head for the Hills in Dorking
Sounds like you have a great LBS there. Well done to them.
Great outcome but "crackling" on a new triangle would have me selling the thing off I've got to be honest. Nothing sounds good about Evil's QC process
Most LBS are pretty decent. I took a knackered SRAM road hydro brake into an LBS and they investigated for a couple of hours then said they couldn't sort it but the other LBS about 3km away could. I took it there, gave them my receipt (from a third LBS in a different country) and after warning me I could be out 300-400 euros for a new shifter, they sent it off to SRAM. A week later, I get a call and all is sorted and all I have to pay for is workshop time (fair enough as I didn't buy from them).
Heihei good for you and great result. Kudos to HftH and Nirvana.
Sadly no can do re: video as both the original cracked triangle and the initial replacement are back at Silverfish.
Clearly there's a fine line here - we all want lighter and lighter frames, and certain parts of a bike frame should have some "give" in them, so personally I'm happy to give Evil the benefit of the doubt in terms of it being either the design being a bit too thin or lax QC in the manufacturing process. My bigger concern / question is over the warranty process.
Hmmm...benefit of doubt due to light frame???? Carbon should be super strong and stiff. There should not be any give in a carbon frame with thumb pressure!!! Imagine what a stone would do to that. I had a small rock ping up and wedge between a cross strut in the lower stay and frame a while back - it removed the paint finish from the carbon but the carbon itself was completely sound, and I imagine that was rammed in with some force since it was during a long rocky downhill. THAT is what I would expect from a decent quality carbon frame.
Good luck though!
So despite the same old claims of "yep, we've sorted it, no more issues with us" they continue to churn out sub standard bikes backed up with industry leading lack of customer service.
You would literally need to have your head examined to consider buying a bike from them.
Hmmm...benefit of doubt due to light frame????
Nah, the variation shouts of a production process that's out of control
I'm with Butterbean and Legend.
I really really wanted an Evil Insurgent to be my next bike but there is not a chance i am spending that amount of money with all these problems floating about. Saying that its a moot point as Turner brought out my dream bike with the RFX but for me it highlights how a companies reputation can / will be decided on their treatment of customers when problems arise and i didn't want to be one of those people who 6 months down the line i have a very expensive door stopper.
Saying that my previous dealings with silverfish have not filled me with any happiness so that was also a factor in my decision.
the variation shouts of a production process that's out of control
If you see how carbon frames are made you'd think things would have to be so out of control for frame sections to end up 'too thin' that it's not really believable. The assembly process would be an unmanaged free-for-all if things like that could happen. I doubt assembly missed whole sections of lay-up.
The **** are they up to then??? Doing it deliberately...?
I thought that the following was a "heavy" carbon frame so where did all the extra material go? My carbon frame shows no sign of flexing anywhere and I think is quite a bit lighter.
andylc, what I mean is that there will be another reason, ie just one of those things when bikes get used, a one-off most likely. Layup patterns are like parts BOMs, there's an exact number of pieces and a process / lay up order that has to be followed, you don't just get bits of carbon left over.
Would have been a great show of faith by silver fish just to warranty it but if 2nd opinion said was crash damage they in their rights .
Had mine for few months ,ridden fairly hard ,jumped it a fair bit ridden it the same as my 160 mm travel bike and it's been awesome ,
Been a lot of frames sold and this only cracked one I think ?
I don't know of a brand that has never had a cracked frame but silverfish / evil need to show they are goner look after customers
The 2nd opinion of crash damage was so much Bullshit though, a digned rim proves nothing, I've knackered wheels just going through rock gardens, didn't have to crash to do that!
When you've got a queue of middle aged men fawning over the brand and saying they'll own one despite the problems then Evil/Silverfish don't really have to improve do they?!....if they're reading this thread they know they have guaranteed customers coming up regardless!....they must be laughing into their cornflakes.
Just read some of the comments on here, the thread in general has put me off even if I respect Dave Weagle's input into the suspension linkage....but comments like 'i wanted one because they're a boutique brand'....jesus wept, is this shopping for footballers wives?...it's mountain biking, how about wanting to own a bike because it's good at the job?...or because it can handle the rigors of actual mountain biking?!
If the brand has a track record of broken frames and poor customer service then stay away, not fit for purpose springs to mind....but then I don't need 'boutique' stuff in my life so what do I know?!
jameso - Member
andylc, what I mean is that there will be another reason, ie just one of those things when bikes get used, a one-off most likely. Layup patterns are like parts BOMs, there's an exact number of pieces and a process / lay up order that has to be followed, you don't just get bits of carbon left over.
Scary isn't it (yes I've seen plenty of carbonz building stuff). So if all the parts are being used you've just got to look at all the other parts of the process. Is the material good enough quality? Are the frame builders following process (this could be the order the material is applied, the mixing and application of the epoxy and so on)? Are they taking some batches out of the oven early to speed things up? And whatever else you can think of
Remember that these swingarms hadn't all been used, 1st one had, 2nd was found to be faulty prior to installation (and must had been really noticeable, who squeezes tubes when building a bike?) and the 3rd one was deemed ok.
@heihei good to hear a positive outcome and kudos to H4TH, who are as the crow flies my very LBS.
When you've got a queue of middle aged men fawning over the brand and ...
The Following just got a superlative review in the Nov '15 What Mountain Bike so the queue's going to get longer.
(Is there something wrong with being middle aged?)
The Following just got a superlative review in the Nov '15 What Mountain Bike so the queue's going to get longer.
More fool them.
This thread shows the QC is crap and the warranty responsibilities of the manufacturer and importer are dire....but hey it got a good review in What Mountain Bike so what the hell!.....there are loads of excellent bikes out there without being lumbered with this pile of junk.
Enjoy!
Naughty Naughty Evil.. For those that do frequent MTBR Evil bikes put a nice post up slagging off the OP, they've promptly deleted it, but thankfull it lives on in the form of images, faceache and instagram.
[img]
i ask this everytime, but why can't i post images from instagram?
The pure fact that a second swingarm could be damaged in the same manner by nothing more than a thumb (yes that digit on your hand), and Evil still wont warranty the original, hmmmm.......
Easier to just [url=
the actual page[/url].
If that's really from Evil they're even bigger arses than they've come across as in the past.
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
Just gone onto MTBR - that post about it being posted from Yorkshire and maybe not being them - you lot are brilliant at detective work... 😉
I really doubt that's Evil - the account was created today, it's only made that post, and I really suspect Americans wouldn't say 'mint'. In fact southern English don't really say that either, I think it's an (english) northerner trolling and taking the **** out of the Surrey Hills.
There's serious potential for brand damage to Evil there so I hope they're on to MTBR to track down the poster.
There's serious potential for brand damage to Evil there
I think they have done a pretty good job of that themselves over the years 🙂
I really suspect Americans wouldn't say 'mint'
It was the OP on MTBR who described the trails as 'mint'. The response, genuine or not, is just repeating it.
Yorkshire you say? Any bikes brands around there?
Yep - guilty of saying "mint"
They were still mint this weekend. Spent a lovely day on and around the Col du Clandon 🙂
I say mint and in a southerner
it [b]must of[/b] come as quite a shock
[img] 
[/img]
I believe the issue was impact damage from the wheel rather than impact from a stone. In any case I do wonder about the design or build quality of the frame. could it be that the layup has potential for one or two layers to be misplaced slightly resulting in a local weakness (particularly under compressive loading)? Maybe too many layers removed too quickly, or potential for one layer not to bond properly during curing. Anyway, not a very robust design from the OP's experience, although hopefully the replacement he now has is up to the job.
Glad the OP had good backup from their LBS. I've had the opposite with a warranty claim (a LBS insisting it wasn't a warranty job even after they'd been persuaded to send the part back and it had been replaced under warranty - weird!) so keep looking after those good LBSs.
There are definitely people who read the reviews - get tempted, then look at the ownership experience and walk away.When you've got a queue of middle aged men fawning over the brand and saying they'll own one despite the problems then Evil/Silverfish don't really have to improve do they?!....if they're reading this thread they know they have guaranteed customers coming up regardless!....they must be laughing into their cornflakes.
I did it with the Uprising (clearance and swingarm problems) and I've just had the same discussion with someone looking at the Following.
As someone else said - too many other good bikes to put up with that.
exactly the point AlexSimon nail and head!
so what do I know?!
precisely!
I would like to try a following but that means buying one and quite frankly it's far too spendy at the risk of receiving piss poor CS.
''When you've got a queue of middle aged men fawning over the brand and saying they'll own one despite the problems then Evil/Silverfish don't really have to improve do they?!....if they're reading this thread they know they have guaranteed customers coming up regardless!....they must be laughing into their cornflakes.
Just read some of the comments on here, the thread in general has put me off even if I respect Dave Weagle's input into the suspension linkage....but comments like 'i wanted one because they're a boutique brand'....jesus wept, is this shopping for footballers wives?...it's mountain biking, how about wanting to own a bike because it's good at the job?...or because it can handle the rigors of actual mountain biking?!
If the brand has a track record of broken frames and poor customer service then stay away, not fit for purpose springs to mind....but then I don't need 'boutique' stuff in my life so what do I know?!''
Well said deviant, when you think how a broken bike frame could leave you with a long walk home or really spoil a mountain biking trip, or possibly cause an injury, I'm in agreement in wondering why people are still thinking about buying an Evil bike after all that's transpired on this thread.
If people have enough money to be thinking about risking buying an Evil after this, I'd welcome some being punted in my direction. Buy a Cotic or a GT or a Giant or a Specialized or an Orange or a...
I'm in agreement in wondering why people are still thinking about buying an Evil bike after all that's transpired on this thread.
you think they actually get taken out of the T5?
I would like to try a following
There a demo bike available in Droitwich I believe, not that far away from you (assuming I've got your location correct going by your history)
Pardon at the T5?
It's whooshed over my head.
Think my first encounter with the Evil ownership experience was a dude at the endurance downhill... His goal for the day was to break his Revolt, so he could return it on warranty and get the carbon one, then sell it. He'd not ridden it much so he was worried it might actually be the only Revolt to outlive the warranty period.
Everyone else's goal is to complete the maximum runs in 6 hours, not him, if he finished the race it was a disaster. I saw him pushing it down the hill after a couple of hours, mission accomplished!
I think the moral is, they know how to make reliable frames, as long as they're really heavy steel hardtails. But with their reputation they need to go above and beyond to win back trust.
On their site it says Tech Crap. Made me laugh. Hope they sort it out if the bikes ride really well. 🙂
[quote=TimothyD ]Pardon at the T5?
It's whooshed over my head.
Volkswagen Transporter Type 5. the discerning MTBers vehicle of choice
(for the record I have one..., but not an evil)
Yeah, I too spotted the section called "Tech Crap" - that's not a good term to use.
It's a fine term to use.
Everything about their marketing, spirit, riders, industry connections, is great.
They're basically a couple of guys who also run a design agency, a beer company, etc.
I think they know how to build a bike, but I also think that they get excited by designing, manufacturing and marketing and then get bored with the rest.
Yeah, I too spotted the section called "Tech Crap" - that's not a good term to use.
I found it quite entertaining. Enough that I bought the bike. Oh how we laughed.
The Following was back in action this weekend thanks to HftH (my LBS), and reminding me what a stunning bike it is.
The original cracked rear triangle has been sent back to Evil for evaluation - I guess once they've looked at it they will decide whether or not to honour the warranty with the shop.
I found it quite entertaining. Enough that I bought the bike. Oh how we laughed.
PMSL 😆
We still need to have an Evil Gathering at some point!
VERY glad to hear you've had excellent service from your LBS and are back out on it again heihei... 😀
We still need to have an Evil Gathering at some point!
That sounds like a cracking idea
[img] 
[/img]
Surely Halloween would be an appropriate date?
I warrant that could be fun!
@heihei pleased to hear of your good outcome. Props to Head For The Hills.
We still need to have an Evil Gathering at some point!
Imagine the collective brown trouser moment when someone rides over and breaks a substantial twig.
🙂
I've been watching this thread relatively nervously. At this stage I'm hoping to buy an Insurgent as my next bike. This will be a while away, 2017. Fortunately this leaves me enough time to find out if they crack and if they do if the owners are looked after. If there's much more hints of this kind of thing going on then I'll be buying something else. And I'd rather not, because the Insurgent looks amazing and, more importantly, people who I respect who have ridden say it stands head and shoulders above other bikes.
I think it's OK to want one of these bikes, but people who buy them do so by monitoring what's going on with the frames that are out there. Hopefully they've finally got it sorted.
it stands head and shoulders above other bikes
You really believe that one bike is that much betterer than everything else available?
Gotta hand it to the Evil marketing engineers I suppose
[quote=munrobiker ]I've been watching this thread relatively nervously. At this stage I'm hoping to buy an Insurgent as my next bike. This will be a while away, 2017. Fortunately this leaves me enough time to find out if they crack and if they do if the owners are looked after. If there's much more hints of this kind of thing going on then I'll be buying something else. And I'd rather not, because the Insurgent looks amazing and, more importantly, people who I respect who have ridden say it stands head and shoulders above other bikes.
I think it's OK to want one of these bikes, but people who buy them do so by monitoring what's going on with the frames that are out there. Hopefully they've finally got it sorted.
with your record on bike destroying?
You really believe that one bike is that much betterer than everything else available?
He never said that, he said his friends said that.
It's believable though, i've ridden a fair few bikes including a Nomad, and the Uprising is the better bike IMO.
He clearly believes what the respected others are saying though. "head and shoulders" implies that it makes every other option redundant
And I'd rather not, because the Insurgent looks amazing and, more importantly, people who I respect who have ridden say it stands head and shoulders above other bikes.
They are talking bolleaux.
It's believable though, i've ridden a fair few bikes including a Nomad, and the Uprising is the better bike IMO.
No it's not. And the latter is subjective. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who believe the Nomad is a far better bike.
He clearly believes what the respected others are saying though. "head and shoulders" implies that it makes every other option redundant
Exactly. It's mostly horse manure.
Surely Halloween would be an appropriate date?
Quite probably, though a little short notice for me I'm afraid...
When's the next Friday 13th?
You've obviously ridden both then butterbean? What were your thoughts?
Just in case the haters are running out of fuel I'm also going to confess to being, as well as happy with my unbroken Following, a middle aged wheels on ground IT bloke who lives in the Surrey Hills and probably couldn't tell one boinger from another in a blind test. There is a BWM in the family, tho it's not mine, and I do fail in that I don't and have never owned an Orange 5.
Cards on the table I say.
Lay it on lads, I can take it.
Audi? 😉