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I noticed this article:
and it made me wonder whether the typical STWer was likely to let the NRA link in the US to these brands affect purchasing decisions in the UK? Apparently Bell, Giro and Camelback are amongst brands owned by a group which supports the NRA (as they also produce firearms).
I don't normally consider myself to be a particularly ethical/polical motivated consumer (I happily use Amazon and i've been known to visit Starbucks*) but this would certainly give me pause for thought.
*although its not my favourite coffee vendor I'm inherently lazy and won't walk too far to find somewhere else.
NO - don't give a flying F.
Lets see all the hand wringing Guardian readers burn their Camelbaks and Gyro helmets first shall we ?
No, I really couldn't give a toss tbh, if we drilled down into every business on the planet I'm sure we'd find something that we would find morally or ethically questionable.
In a world where politics seems to be out of control your purchases are the new voting so why would you not
Lets see all the hand wringing Guardian readers burn their Camelbaks and Gyro helmets first shall we ?
Wouldn't that fuel global warming though? Think things through before you post in future please.
It's already been covered here:
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/camelbak-giro-blackburn-bell-assault-rifles-and-the-nra/
But in short, yes, I don't knowingly buy from companies or groups you support the NRA or make Assault Weapons or Handguns for the civilian market.
I'm not alone and it's finally starting to gain some traction in the US>
Lets see all the hand wringing Guardian readers burn their Camelbaks and Gyro helmets first shall we ?
Nice knee-jerking there. If people feel uneasy about the money they spend potentially going - even in a very small way - to finance the NRA, why shouldn't they choose not to buy those brands?
Burning stuff you've already bought isn't going to achieve anything. Nice straw man...
There was a recent Cycling Tips podcast where the hosts pontificated about how boycotting those brands would simply damage them without having an impact on the parent company and potentially damage the livelihood of people - ergo their mates - who work for them.
What they didn't address was that some people simply don't want to give money to a company owned by an arms outift which supports the NRA. Is there something wrong with choosing not to give money to companies who finance in some small way, an organisation you disapprove of?
Yes, all of our choices in life will have an impact on others, but to willingly put money into organisations that fund the NRA lobby is a morally bullshit as buying goods from Israel occupies territories, or supporting companies that you know use child labor. I'm about as far from a hand wringing, guardian reading "snowflake" as you can get but I do believe in not being a ****
Doesn't even register as an issue. However I'm far from the leftie professionally offended typical stw reader.
I wont be buying any of these companies products until the link is broken as a personal choice. This is made easy by the range and choice in the market - it would be much harder say if Giro were the only make of helmets you could buy.
But, I think expressing moral values through consumer choices and going on about it is a weak form of politics. It's too easy to 'boycott' one thing, replace it with another and experience no sacrifice and no risk. It's too often the politics of self satisfaction - and a replacement for real politics. Real political progress happens when people put their neck on the line - by standing up and speaking (risk of ridicule) or by taking part in something challenging, risky or difficult (e.g. strike action).
Boeing make attack helicopters and bombs. I don't see anyone boycotting the 737 for their city break.
Yes
Purchase power is far more effective than voting
And yes, I am a guardian reading, bleeding heart vegetarian tree-hugger !
If this was a global issue then I would but it's an Ameriocan issue and they have had plenty of opportunities to fix it themselves.
Boycotting the brands associated with the NRA will have no effect, change will only come when the gun atrocities reach a critical mass. We are still a long way from that critical mass I'm afraid cos they are to a degree an abhorrent society.
Boeing make attack helicopters and bombs. I don’t see anyone boycotting the 737 for their city break.
That's the point I was trying to make but you put it better.
Also, people would never go to Tel Aviv or buy olive oil from Israel because it would be supporting the Israeli economy. But buying an iPhone or visiting the USA - with it's excellent record of not starting wars... no problem.
Purchase power is far more effective than voting
There was an incredibly effective campaign to move ban accounts from a bank who was backing a very controversial development in Tasmania, it worked, they pulled out of it and other banks wouldn't touch them. Your wallet and your choices, when the problems with gender and bathrooms was becoming a bigger issue in the US people like the superbowl and Disney simply had the power to move away from those places who were being discriminatory.
Boeing make attack helicopters and bombs. I don’t see anyone boycotting the 737 for their city break.
But do they sell them to teenagers?
You can let your cynicism run wild if you like, is it worth believing in anything if you don't know with absolute certainty that it will fix all that's wrong with the world immediately?
Boeing make attack helicopters and bombs. I don’t see anyone boycotting the 737 for their city break.
Well, if there was another airliner manufacturer that didn't have a military wing, you could chose airlines based on that, but I think even Airbus has a military arm to it's business, so what would you propose? Stay-cations?
But these things aren't absolutes are they? knowing that some manufacturers are linked to companies that fund the NRA, you are free to make decisions about whether to buy from them or not, it's pretty much down to individual morals/ethics. Individual purchases aren't going to be significant, but enough folk decide to choose "something else"...maybe
Boycotting the brands associated with the NRA will have no effect, change will only come when the gun atrocities reach a critical mass. We are still a long way from that critical mass I’m afraid cos they are to a degree an abhorrent society.
That may be the case, but if people want to make a personal choice not to give money to brands that are owned by companies who support the NRA, then that's fair enough. You can do it on the basis of your own conscience if you choose to. There's no requirement that you think it will change American society.
Gaining traction tho - REI are fairly high profile......
Outdoor retailers REI and Canada-based Mountain Equipment Co-Op both announced that they would no longer carry any of the 50 brands produced by Vista. Both companies are co-ops; REI made the decision to break with Vista after thousands of its members (more than 24,000 as of this writing) called for it in an online petition, and Mountain Equipment cited a massive number of calls from its own members.
Boeing make attack helicopters and bombs. I don’t see anyone boycotting the 737 for their city break.
I'm sure people do, you're probably just not looking hard enough.
Plenty of us have stopped or drastically cut back on flying for ethical reasons anyway.
Why do you want everyone to be as conformist and conservative as yourself? Would it make you feel better?
Boycotts and consumer activism are all about achievable goals anyway.
There's evidence the Vista campaign is having an impact already in Antony's story over there ---->
Boycotting the brands associated with the NRA will have no effect, change will only come when the gun atrocities reach a critical mass.
It's not at critical mass already?
I think its great that businesses are at long last standing up to the NRA. anything to challenge them surely has to be a good thing in my eyes.
And yes, like one or two others on this thread, I'm a tree-hugging veggie. I'm well, use to basing my purchases on avoiding animal testing policies and things I generally disagree with in my tiny blinkered world view!
This
"Lets see all the hand wringing Guardian readers burn their Camelbaks and Gyro helmets first shall we?"
And this
"I’m about as far from a hand wringing, guardian reading “snowflake” as you can get but I do believe in not being a *"
Its about not being a *.
It's great that these links are being put under the spotlight; the only way anything has ever changed is through scrutiny and pressure.
By the same merit, I stopped renewing my British Cycling membership due to HSBC's involvement.
The NRA is grim enough, but HSBC takes it to a whole other level...
From corruption at the highest levels in the City of London and the Crown's Offshore network, to gun running, drug trafficking and indiscriminate slaughter on a wholesale scale.
Not to mention their role in the surveillance state...
Of course, change takes time, but there's certainly a lot more awareness these days, even compared to 4 or 5 years ago.
I was about to buy a giro helmet but haven't now - I know that it hurts the retailer that can't shift stock if it's not Sale or Return, but If it is and they return it, the message will start to get through
I know that there comes a time where you end up buying something from someone unethical but if you can choose then why would you knowingly fund a bunch of &@$tards?
I've just bought a new Giro helmet (I was aware of the boycott but chose to ignore it).
Awaits flaming...
Not really - I don't want to support the NRA because their hold on politicions and lobbying agaisnt gun control debates is pretty low given what happens reguarly in America but I'm unlikelt to buy their products anyway due to preferring others (e.g. Evoc packs).
Part of me can't help feeling that if those in power don't care about mass shootings, or many Americans judging by comments on this story, why the hell should I?
Yep, agree that the NRA aren’t directly my problem but they’re an anti-democratic organisation causing human misery. Every little helps, and people are people. I pay attention to consumer ethics so ignoring the link now made would be hypocritical.
I’m not going to destroy existing purchases as that would be pointless, but I’m not going to support the companies involved until they mend their ways.
of course, it helps that none of the involved have particularly stand-out irreplaceable products anymore, regardless of how innovative they may have been in the past - there are alternative products that are just as Good or better, so it’s hardly like I’m making a hair shirt for myself...
This topic has sent Singletrack social media into meltdown, I had no idea that we had hundreds of American readers who are so upset that they're cancelling their subscriptions (some have cancelled their subscriptions twice, the same people were complaining when it last popped up on Facebook.
The reality of the situation is that the relationship between brands is somewhat opaque - for example if you buy fine craft ale at a fiver a pint, you may or may not be inadvertently filling the coffers of a large multinational alcohol brand and the same is true here.
FWIW, I'm going to play Forum Bingo and will be looking for the terms "libtards", "virtue signalling", "NRA promotes responsible gun ownership" and "but the Second Amendment...".
That's me done, I'm off to enjoy a craft ale but will be back to check on bingo progress later.
Yes, which is annoying because I really get on with Giro shoes and was about to buy a new pair of Empires for summer road riding.
New information has come to light which affects my choice. I recognise that the power in my wallet exceeds the power of my vote. Don't like it, but that's the way of the world.
I'm not about to destroy my existing Giro products - that money's been spent (regrettably in hindsight) so that would be futile and wasteful.
I disike this notion that larrydavid and Flashy posit above - essentially, if you can't be certain you do everything, don't do anything. I realise there's fun to be had in playing devil's advocate and sniffing out hypocrisy or inconsistency, but that's playground stuff at best, lazy and snide at worst.
It's okay to admit you weren't aware of something and change your position once you are.
Yes, it'll make me look somewhere else when I need to replace my Bell lid. I try to buy 'ethically' (and locally/indie as well) if possible and this is just another one I have to be aware of. Tree hugging veggies here, OH knits his own yoghurt and everything.
good post 2tyred.
NO – don’t give a flying F.
Lets see all the hand wringing Guardian readers burn their Camelbaks and Gyro helmets first shall we ?
Ah... So early in the thread and we have a self-appointed ‘snowflake assassin’.
Good thing assault weapons are banned in the UK, every slightly lefty thread would be shot to pieces by an AR15.
Luckily there are alternatives to Giro and Bell helmets these days. A few years back, you'd have struggled to find a decent helmet not made by one of them - I had about 5 Giros in a row, before switching brands recently. Same with Camelbaks I suppose. So it's not a difficult boycott to join.
Or you could buy them 2nd hand so the co's have already got the money for their rifle businesses.
Lets see all the hand wringing Guardian readers burn their Camelbaks and Gyro helmets first shall we ?
Why would anyone burn something they have already purchased. Seems a bit odd as opposed to not buying anything new from that provider.
Might have made a bit more sense if you said return their Camelbaks but I guess some people just default to wanting to burn anything they disapprove of.
Won't affect my decision one bit. As had been stated already, dig deep enough and you will end up morally questioning most things you buy.
I don't agree with the prevalence of guns in the US, but its pretty low down on my 'give a shit meter' compared to most of the bad things that go on in the world.. Many of which could probably be linked back to my purchasing habits in some shape or from .
Edited. This post should be chat and I shouldn't be posting.
I feel that we have no moral right to whinge about another countries way of doing things.
In this case it's more deciding on if want to fund something or not.
Blast! Sucked in.
Mods. Could this post be moved to the chat section where it belongs please?
My problem I know, but I have actually changed my favourites to send me to "bike" rather than "chat and bike" as the vicious name calling in some posts has become nasty. (weak minded enough to be dragged in,)
<p>
</p><p></p><p>Essentially they are two separate businesses owned by the same parent group, but hey if it makes you feel good. As someone else said you don't have to go far to find something that someone finds ethically dubious. I have no love for the NRA but to be honest it's up to Americans to police their politics, we have plenty to be dealing with ourselves.</p></p><p>Camelbak meanwhile has tried to distance itself from its parent company, issuing a statement last Friday on its website which said:</p><p>“As you may know, in the wake of the recent tragic shooting at a Florida school, there have been calls on social media for a boycott of CamelBak products because of its association with Vista Outdoor, a company that also owns separate businesses in the shooting sports industry. A major concern for the boycott centers around the incorrect assumption that the purchase of any of our products may support a cause that does not fit the mission/values of our brand. That is not the case. Our brand falls within the Outdoor Products segment of our company, which operates separately from Vista Outdoor’s Shooting Sports segment.”
Guardian reading. Tick
Lefty. Tick
Millennial. Tick
Vegan (ish). Tick
Student. Tick
Militant cyclist. Tick
Not buying any more new camelbak, giro etc products. Tick
I HAVE ACHIEVED PEAK SNOWFLAKE!!
Businesses adopting political stances and attempting to influence things can expect similar in return.
Tech businesses acting like legislators and self appointed mini government can get teh **** as far as I'm concerned.
Holy s##t! I fly the Boeing 737 for a living and own a camelback and a giro helmet/shoes. I am worse than all of you!!!
Holy s##t! I fly the Boeing 737 for a living and own a camelback and a giro helmet/shoes. I am worse than all of you!!!
Clearly the only thing to do is to burn it.
I hate it when people make an effort to improve the world for everyone. What total arseholes!
Meanwhile, on the front page...
Some people are full of shit. Go boycott the government for selling arms to other countries if you want to take the moral high ground. Chuffing hipocrites.
I don't want to make too light of the discussion but this made me smile.
*Yawn* The old 'if you're not devoting your whole life to the cause you're a hypocrite'-argument of the lazy.
The old I'll post a reply to this thread that has no real relevance to the topic in a attempt to look clever, belittle someone and completely miss the point. Yay!
I was highlighting a good case of people jumping on the day's bandwagon while far more suspect issues go unchecked.
The old I’ll post a reply to this thread that has no real relevance to the topic in a attempt to look clever, belittle someone and completely miss the point. Yay!
I was highlighting a good case of people jumping on the day’s bandwagon while far more suspect issues go unchecked.
Did you read any of this thread or the one from last week, then? Talking about this doesn't mean people don't talk about other, more serious, things too. Just because this is small in comparison doesn't mean it can't be worthwhile too. I don't disagree that there are bigger problems, but I don't see that as a reason for people to ignore this one, as you seem to imply.
Some people are full of shit. Go boycott the government for selling arms to other countries if you want to take the moral high ground. Chuffing hipocrites.
How do you 'boycott a government'? I didn't vote for the current one, but I'm not sure what I can do in economic terms other than emigrating. Norway seems nice... lots of moral high ground there. And trees.
You seem angry, do you work for the NRA?
We need to list all of the worlds issues and then prioritise them. Everyone then only has to care about the top issue (so just one at a time, easy eh). Right, let's start writing them down....
Do we have to take action on all of them?
Some people are full of shit. Go boycott the government for selling arms to other countries if you want to take the moral high ground. Chuffing hipocrites.
Because it's better to do nothing about everything, right?
I was highlighting a good case of people jumping on the day’s bandwagon while far more suspect issues go unchecked.
Gosh, if only we were capable of having more than one thought simultaneously.
Predictable drivel of replies bang on cue, except warpcow.
Angry? No. Outspoken? Probably. Speak my mind? Absolutely. Member of the NRA? Pfffff.
List every moral issue? My example was specific to the subject matter discussed. Want to make a difference? Go petition the NRA directly if it bothers you that much. Let's be honest, if cycling related brands weren't involved, you wouldn't be giving it anywhere close to same amount of attention.
Boycott the government? You pay taxes. Don't then. Sure, you'll get into shit load of trouble for it but you're passionate about this cause, right? (Cue more predictable replies). I mean, the government selling arms to other countries that will absolutely be used to kill people is a massive deal and well worth being fined and potentially imprisioned for. No? Perhaps a more convenient cause like the one being discussed is more to your liking as involves by association a couple of brands that relate to your hobby. (Cue I must be pro gun replies).
The US gun law as a whole is crazy, no doubt, and needs addressing but a boycott of a couple of cycling brands is not a long term answer. Having spent time around guns, both over there and the UK, the attitudes of the average gun owner are very different. The problem in the US is the right to bare arms and while that remains, you will always be on the back foot on gun related issues. The likes of the NRA can happily feed off of this right, ignorance and paranoia and the situation escalates further.
The US gun law as a whole is crazy, no doubt, and needs addressing but a boycott of a couple of cycling brands is not a long term answer.
Is anyone proposing it as a "longterm solution"?
In fairness, boycotting related brands is a simple, proportionate option for anyone objecting to US firearms issues to express their views and it hurts the parent company where they feel it, right in the bottom line. These are after all the brands that prop up such business when there's a downturn in gun sales... If contributions to the NRA start to hurt the whole group, there has to be a point beyond which it makes better sense to yank that funding.
I find it quite encouraging that people have actually started to think about the "interconnectedness" of their consumer spending with wider issues.
I'll admit that as much as I have views an opinions on various topics, I seldom bother to apply any personal sanctions to the corporate entities that affect those issues, which is arguably a more powerful tool (if used en-mass) than your vote...
You're absolutely right; US gun violence isn't the only issue in the world today, so how else could people adjust their spending to help reshape the world? Stop buying cheap Chinese imports to weaken support for North Korea? Stop buying Russian Gas and oil till they stop dropping barrel bombs in Syria?
I made the same point about hypocrisy in the last thread and I still stand by it. I wonder if anyone has actually taken the time since then to check which funds their pensions are invested in? I'll take a guess and say no one. Too much bother am I right? People like to show on social media that they give a **** by jumping on the latest bandwagon, but the reality is when it comes to examining other areas of spending, rarely is any action followed through.
Fair point, the issue you have is with "virtue signalling" rather than people actually taking a (small) stand through their spending then?
I can't disagree with you there. But then to simply rubbish the notion of "ethical consumption" or label everyone a hypocrite for coming to the debate late and under-researched is a bit counterproductive also.
So setting aside the social media opining, is there any reason people shouldn't vote with their wallets?
Alextemper above seems to be arguing that unless you can take decisive and far reaching action you shouldn't bother, which sounds a bit like encouraging apathy to me...
Social and political debate is awash with hypocrisy, and nobody is without their ethical contradictions, that's no reason to try and shut down discussion or rubbish people's personal choices...
Look at it another way
If it was legal to buy a firearm and shoot a perp in the UK would you buy a gun?
Clearly the only thing to do is to burn it.
But maybe not by flying it into a building, that is also frowned upon by some
Look at it another way
If it was legal to buy a firearm and shoot a perp in the UK would you buy a gun?
It is legal to buy a firearm in the UK, as for shooting a "perp" I've no great desire to kill another person...
We have pretty effective gun control in the UK and gun related death statistics to illustrate their effectiveness, you can still own and use a gun as a tool of your trade or for sporting use...
I'm not sure many Americans really know why the 2nd amendment exists, the right to bare arms was there as the ultimate sanction the people had should their government turn into a bunch of oppressive tyrants, or if an armed militia needed to be formed in defence of the nation from foreign invaders. I don't think the founding fathers were envisaging school massacres or the forming of a fervent gun appreciation society...
Unintended consequences eh?
Cost, reliability, build quality, looks.................................................................... nra ethics.
something or other in that order.
Predictable drivel of replies bang on cue, except warpcow.
U ok Hun?
Alextemper above seems to be arguing that unless you can take decisive and far reaching action you shouldn’t bother, which sounds a bit like encouraging apathy to me…
Social and political debate is awash with hypocrisy, and nobody is without their ethical contradictions, that’s no reason to try and shut down discussion or rubbish people’s personal choices…
well said.
What's wrong with people half-heartedly rallying behind a random symbol of political expression?
Also, whataboutism.
Lot of Giro plugging on STW... are we supposed to forget about the NRA cos there's been no shooting for a few weeks, or have Giro departed company.. or... I dunno...
There's been mass shootings, just not on a Florida scale.
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/mass-shooting
vista to sell bell, giro & blackburn.
I just bought a helmet and avoided vista brands, looks like I'll be back with giros soon but not camelfoot.
I like the fact that this story has played out like it has, informed consumer choices led to change, however insignificant it seems. Just hope the people who work at bell giro etc keep in work.