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A more on message question - from a designer perspective how much do you have to commit long term to an ebike motor supplier? Is it possible to design a frame where the addition of a different mounting plate you could switch between different brands? Or order a batch of frames one year with fit one brand of motor and with minimal cad work make the next batch work with a 2nd?
I can't see that working. Frinstance, the new Bosch system (and batteries) don't fit into the 'old' system, so if one brand can't manage it....
I also find the bike brand Transition deeply offensive to those considering a change in their gender
I have to design for a specific motor. Given the extremely long lead times on shimano components right now, you have to design to a specific system and commit to it.
Fortunately most of the shimano motors share the same mounting points, so different shimano options could be offered if they provided us with a significantly different price point.
Having spent a lot of time on the EP8 motor over the last few months, I think that it's great. Most of the time the eco setting is more than enough assistance.
I have asked @benpinnick to reply to this, he's currently having issues logging in to the forum
Typical STW thread.
@danbird - no chance of a Bosch version then? That will rule it out for me unfortunately unless something fundamental changes at Shimano, shame as otherwise would probably be putting my name down for one
I’d be interested to know a bit more about the “options with our partners to allow customers to access the bikes without the high upfront costs of purchase or the maintenance overhead”
We're looking at a number of options including rental and lease purchasing. I'm not a fan of what ebikes are doing to the pricing in the wider market and how its going to start pricing people out of the market. Combine that with aforementioned issues with lifespan of engines etc. and either leasing, rental or partial ownership makes a lot of sense. For many riders they're only using it at mostly trail centre sites and so a portable eBike rental that lets you book fully serviced, set up and maintained eBikes from a range of sites across the UK, close to interesting riding sites would suit many riders.
We're only just starting down that road, but we hope to have a mix of purchase and lease/rental options lined up for launch.
@davesaurusrex not at this time. Unfortunately Bosch weren't willing to work with us so put themselves out of contention before the race even got started. We've been very happy with the Shimano units we have had on test so far with only minimal issues with contacts on the cables which we'll eliminate through enhanced waterproofing during assembly, and we'll be sure to work out how to keep them running beyond their 2 year warranty which will likely include some sort of extended warranty option.
If we ever get to the point where we have anything like a "standard" mount for motors... my money would be on the current Shimano mount being the one that sticks the most. Same goes for batteries. Third party batteries that fit Shimano already exist... I don't think there's any licensing barrier to third party motors also fitting Shimano mounts. Makes it a wise choice for a bike brand if you don't have the scale of Specialized.
That's correct, there won't be a bosch version. However I'm not sure what the concern is over the shimano system? In my understanding all the E-bike systems available have similar levels of reliability, I'm not aware of any system without some issues.
We went with Shimano for 2 reasons:
1. due to the large number of bike shops who can deal with Shimano warranty and service locally.
2. Bosch have not been taking on any new Ebike customers for a few years now, I have contacted them a few times - they're always at full capacity and unwilling to sell to someone new.
You may or may not be right about the entomology of the term ethic.
What does the study of insects have to do with the choice of brand name?
We’ll be offering the new eBike as a frame + motor option and full bike assuming no one tells us we can’t
That would be brilliant. I would have defo looked for a frame and motor option when I bought mine.
As it is, I perhaps paid an artificially high price for a complete(Orbea Wild Fs), where really some of those components are now letting me down(wheels are in self disassembly mode).
Whenever I buy my next eeb, I would love it if there was a frame/motor only option. 👍
My concerns aren't to do with the reliability. It's that there's just no way of fixing or servicing them once the warranty expires. They have to be replaced. And its nearly 1000 pounds to get it fitted by a shop, which you need to do to keep the warranty.
These guys don't work on Shimano any more https://www.ebikemotorcentre.com/repair-overhaul-upgrades/
It's unfortunate this all gets aimed at the bike manufacturers, but there's no direct line of communication between customers and Shimano to say "Hey, why not sell some spares!??"
These guys sell motors to fit Shimano mounts https://www.oli-ebike.com/motors/ so maybe someone else will step in, but Shimano motors have been out a number of years now and still no servicing.
These guys also seem to be developing something that fits Shimano, and even takes a normal replaceable BB, but quite early in development process https://www.lightest.bike/ Pics here https://www.emtbforums.com/community/threads/out-of-warranty-shimano-repairs.9356/page-2
What a great thread. Looking like some interesting developments coming here, watching with interest. Keep the updates coming guys. Is there a waiting list yet?
My concerns aren’t to do with the reliability. It’s that there’s just no way of fixing or servicing them once the warranty expires. They have to be replaced. And its nearly 1000 pounds to get it fitted by a shop, which you need to do to keep the warranty.
Will be interesting to see how Bird's top notch warranty (first hand experience) and customer service is planning to deal with that.
Is there a waiting list yet?
Afraid not. We're not likely to open that for some time yet!
My concerns aren’t to do with the reliability. It’s that there’s just no way of fixing or servicing them once the warranty expires. They have to be replaced. And its nearly 1000 pounds to get it fitted by a shop, which you need to do to keep the warranty.
It was for several years the primary reason that stopped us developing an eBike irrespective of who makes the motor. Whether you can get a repair or not the basic 2yr warranty doesn't really cut it for many people's use (For others who buy new yearly, its fine of course). We'll be doing something bespoke therefore, but it's too early to say exactly what that will be. Certainly though since we'll hold a stock of motors we'd have way more flexibility than a regular bike brand sold in a shop for example.
Managed to log in at last… been following this thread all morning.
As an owner of a bird frame I’m predisposed to like this bike I think. Looks fine to me. Don’t really care about the logo and the brand name isn’t important. As someone who tends to buy frames and upgrade bits over time rather than whole bikes I’d certainly be interested in the frame and motor option. In fact it is the sort of thing that might influence my buying choices in advance. I have been thinking about a replacement fork on my aether9 so that I can put the fox 34s back on the hardtail. Obvious choice is either a pike at 140 or maybe lyrik perhaps at 150. If I thought I might be looking at a frame only eeb in 2 years I’d definitely go for the lyrik option.
Leasing and other options to buy are interesting too. Good work all round I think.
Hi Dan,
A few qu's:
Will there be a battery range extender available (aka water bottle mounted)?
How did the lower chain guide survive the 600km? Do u have to run the lower guide?
Assume the ebikes will be pix and mix regarding components like other bird bikes?
Thanks.
@benpinnick best of luck, sounds like you're putting a lot of thought into this.
Shimano don't offer any sort of range extender, however I am looking at this option (different battery supplier) for the next Ebike model that I'll be starting the design process on in the new year.
I've actually been through several iterations of both upper and lower guides during testing - everything has been 3D printed in house which has allowed me to rapidly develop several new versions of the parts during testing. The lower guide uses a standard 11t jockey wheel and is easily replaced when needed. It'll outlast the jockey wheels on your rear mech.
Yes, the lower guide is needed to lower the chain growth on the bottom half of the chain, which reduces the wear on the your side rear mech clutch. It also provides additional chain wrap around the chainring and keeps the chain securely in place.
Yes, the bikes will be pick and mix just like our regular Bird bikes.
Will anyone be re-uploading the video for those who didn't get a chance to see it?
No, we can't re-upload that video, but we will be putting another "first look" video for the Ethic up at some point.
Certainly though since we’ll hold a stock of motors we’d have way more flexibility than a regular bike brand sold in a shop for example.
with a frame only option that definitely interests me if you get something set up like Berkshire Cycles have for Specialized ebikes. However the other bit that interests me is what happens to replaced motors? Seems bloody wasteful if they don't at least get returned to Shimano for refurb for other warranty replacements. I know the answer from some will be "don't ride an ebike then unless you have a medical condition", but they're too much fun and I'm lazy, sue me. Doesn't mean I don't want the downsides minimised where possible
I also find the bike brand Transition deeply offensive to those considering a change in their gender
please tell me thats a piss poor attempt at a joke.
@danbird
I’ve offered my services to take the Eeb around the trails of Tweedvalley and show my support🤘🏻🤘🏻
I own an Eeb already but when the Ethic is out for sale it will be just in the right timeframe for an upgrade @benpinnick
My Q is what’s the warranty like with Shimano?
On Bosch I’ve had zero issues but I’ve heard that if the motor dies say 3 months before the 2 year warranty is done your NEW motor is only covered for the 3 months left of the original 2 years which is a bloody PITA
Spesh offer a brand new full 4 year warranty with new motors
Just wondering what Shimano offer
Last I heard it was a rolling 2 year warranty but it all seems a bit vague. I have about another 6 months window on this one to find out....
That seems to be standard though...SRAM is the same, if in warranty the replacement part remains warranted for the remain warranty life of the original part. They generally replace as a good will gesture though if the replacement part fails again.
Ben / Dan... Any rough timescales on availability (are we really looking at 2023?). I know it's early days but when do you think you will start taking pre-orders. Was waiting for stock of the spesh kenevo and you have put a spanner in the works now with this announcement! I may very well have to wait a bit longer now.
Cheers
Also any geo charts yet or too early for that? Guess we pretty much know the ballpark but nice to nerd out over the figures!
On Bosch I’ve had zero issues but I’ve heard that if the motor dies say 3 months before the 2 year warranty is done your NEW motor is only covered for the 3 months left of the original 2 years which is a bloody PITA
My local bosch dealer told me the opposite, they said that you get another two year warranty with any replacements
I had a new bosch motor under warranty at about the 6 month mark, and he said the warranty period restarts.
I was hoping to launch in the 2nd half of 2022, but shimano informed me on Monday that they'll only be able to deliver in 2023,sometime.
It's frustrating but we're seeing similar issues and all our parts. Suspension forks are hard to get right now.
I haven't put together a proper data sheet yet, we tend to do that just before launch.
Off the top of my head...
HA 63.5 with 170mm fork
SA 77.5 in ML size
Reach 485mm, ML size
CS 440mm in the mullet setup, 448 in full 29"
BB 280mm sagged (it runs 160mm cranks)
160mm rear travel with around 35% rising rate
The idler wheel runs on its own axle, just like a hub, with a lip seal and needle roller bearing on the drive side, unshielded bearing on the non drive, all sat in an oil bath that is filled from the drive side (with a cap to seal it)
Auxiliary seals on the main pivot bearings near the motor
Cheers. Any idea on stack numbers?
To do otherwise with regards frame pricing would be oddly unethical I would say (in the traditionally accepted sense). Forcing people to purchase products they don’t need and at a price they didn’t need to pay in order we squeeze a few more pounds profit on that frame sale.
thanks for responding. i’d not considered your reasons in those terms.
and i’m sorry for my slightly inflammatory post, i was a little tipsy and not fully considered what i was suggesting.
I can't remember the stack off the top of my head, sorry. In theory you could work it out with the numbers I've given, plus the head tube length, which is 120mm on the ML 🙂
I'll put a geometry drawing together at some point and put it on the Ethic socials
Fascinating thread, thanks to Ben and Dan for their very open contributions. Really interesting to hear just how far in advance a manufacturer has to commit to a particular standard (eg re motor mounts).
On a slight tangent, I do wonder if 2022 will be the year of the ‘compatibility adapter producers’; parts availability will be so poor that making X work with Y could be very profitable!
I don't know about that but I would predict loads of 'I bought a bike advertised as X spec but its got Y, what should I do?' threads 😉
julians
My local bosch dealer told me the opposite, they said that you get another two year warranty with any replacements
I had a new bosch motor under warranty at about the 6 month mark, and he said the warranty period restarts.
Know people who have had the same experience as above, the warranty restarts
I don’t know about that but I would predict loads of ‘I bought a bike advertised as X spec but its got Y, what should I do?’ threads 😉
You give people too much credit. "I bought spec X 2 years ago, I just bought X mk2 to upgrade it and it turns out I had spec Y all along but I never checked and now nothing fits and my bike is broken and its your fault and whats the CEO's email address?"
hainman
Spesh offer a brand new full 4 year warranty with new motors
Spesh only offer 4 year on the 19-20 Levo and 20 Kenovo's, as the owner experience lots of issues, it was a one off payback, but not extended to any new models of 2021 or 22 bikes
julians
On Bosch I’ve had zero issues but I’ve heard that if the motor dies say 3 months before the 2 year warranty is done your NEW motor is only covered for the 3 months left of the original 2 years which is a bloody PITA
My local bosch dealer told me the opposite, they said that you get another two year warranty with any replacements
I had a new bosch motor under warranty at about the 6 month mark, and he said the warranty period restarts.
@julians & @honourablegeorge
Bosch have change the rules, original warranty period only of the bike now.
@danbird
I know you in a sticky position, if there the only supplier, but for me and many others, I won't be rushing to buy another shimano system. Not being repairable out of warranty, is a big big no no for me.
@Z1ppy luckily for us I guess (or not) demand is likely to massively outstrip supply, so while your comments and others are noted and we appreciate your feedback, it wouldn't change our trajectory in terms of what we're planning. We're aware of the limitations of the Shimano system repairability at this time and the warranty, and will be launching with a plan to support our customers properly for a reasonable 'lifetime' expectation of a motor to ensure that our customers on Shimano motors get as good if not better overall experience than could be had elsewhere on other systems.
That won't be the infinite warranty from Bosch as mentioned above but now seems to have been curtailed by Bosch (who can blame them?), but it will mean you won't be high and dry 2 yrs and 1 day into your ownership.
I don't know if I even want an ebike, but the discussion on this thread has made me realise what needs to happen before I could buy one.
We are now in a place with MTB geometry that I could buy a bike frame to last me more than a decade - and this bike's proposed figures are an excellent example of that. Kudos to Dan for that.
But the battery and motor bits are still very immature technology, hugely unreliable compared to most consumer products - and in the case of Shimano there's a big issue with serviceability.
Additionally, the motor mounting formats are changing with each iteration.
So I'm not interested until the industry (or at least a couple of the major players) agree common dimensions for the electric bits, giving the prospect of real longevity to frames - rather than tying them to motors which might be obsolete within a few years.
Is there any realistic prospect of this happening? Is anyone even trying to drive towards it?
fair comment, and taking on feedback... thats all we can ask
I'm into it but I don't have the money sitting there ready to jump on the first batch so I'll definitely miss those. I'll be officially in my 40's by the time they're readily available which is a scary thought.
I like everything you're saying especially about not being forced to buy parts you don't need. That opens up so many build options and the ability to save loads of cash by reusing old forks, wheels etc.
I did want to buy a Commencal because they look mint and the pricing is vaguely sensible compared to the big brands but I didn't want to be stuck with a dead bike when the inevitable happens. What do you do with a bike from a direct sales manufacturer in another country, and UK Shimano suppliers refusing to warranty an imported bike? It's a recipe for a massive ball ache.
Keep doing what you're doing Bird/Ethic. I can't wait to ride one.
Additionally, the motor mounting formats are changing with each iteration.
Thats actually one of the key reasons we went shimano as they're committed* to not changing them. It means in theory at least we could supply new updated motors to customers down the line. I expect that to be a core part of the strategy in terms of keeping these bikes running for the long term.
* Not written in stone
My family run a eco resort overseas and have about 20 enduro ebikes for rent for use in the mountains around their camp. They swear by the current e7000 on all bikes after having a lot of issues with the e8000 and newer Ep. Do not be put off my the current e7000 motor on more budget ebike builds. It is a pretty reliable unit.
A friend and I both bought focus ebikes last year with the Bosch motor and both have had no end of issues. He had a replacement motor last month and mine is currently at the bike shop getting looked at with the 550 error 🤷🏻♂️. Bird……. Sorry, ethic will be top of the list if or when I get another.
I got off to a shaky start with Bird, but these guys are the Shiznit. Their bikes are second to none (I have a 9C and a Forge). I also have 2 E-bikes, a Brose and a Bosch, they all have their plus points, limitations and faults. I would forget about the motor and go with the bike and brand. I will be on the wait list for a Ethic as soon as it becomes available.
PS. Who really cares about the name??
benpinnick
Thats actually one of the key reasons we went shimano as they’re committed* to not changing them
I wonder if they'll ever commit to not changing I-Spec
I wonder if they’ll ever commit to not changing I-Spec
I think we all know the answer to that question.
I'm a fan of Bird mtb. Think it's their customer service makes the brand stand out
I don't think the name Ethic is a good name for the ebike, too confusing.
The ebike looks good but the big branding just doesn't look great.
I'm afraid image is important to people and bikes aren't cheap.
Other wise keep up the good work .
I'm not sure it matters what anyone thinks about the name 😀
Exactly, most folk don't care what the name of their bike is, and rightly so. It's a bike, with a made up name, there's nothing confusing about it.
Don't think the logo looks good nor is it ethical made.
I'm sure it's super good to ride though.
nor is it ethical made.
Really, do we need to do this again?.
nor is it ethical made.
Really, do we need to do this again
Quite. I thought the bikes were made in Taiwan and Bird were based in Hampshire.
Quite. I thought the bikes were made in Taiwan and Bird were based in Hampshire.
I struggle to see how this makes them unethical (or unethic) in any way? Unless there is both an untapped aluminium ore seam under the home counties, and a load of unemployed experienced aluminium welders in Eversley.
Came on here thinking there might be more interesting info. Shut up about the name, boring!
Yeah, same here. I only want to see this thread update with hard facts, good pictures, videos and prices!
New stuff here...
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-look-the-new-ethic-highish-pivot-emtb.html
I think it looks mint apart from the downtube logo and droopy saddle
Check the depressingly predictable comments. I guess keyboard-wielding philosophy professors are the same all over the world.
Naw, rwading comments on PB is worse than the daily mail tbh.
Nice. Logo not an issue for me.
I’m not sure it matters what anyone thinks about the name 😀
Yes, it does
( As an ex global marketing / sales director speaking)
It is sad - but there is a thing called "brand value" - and if the brand image does not convey the right narrative to the target market then there will be big issue
I don't doubt you, but I'll bet my last 12 speed cassette that they sell out quick smart.
Mint. Mullet & a set of 180mm boxxers for me please. I hoping the fork rubber bumpers wont hit the cable outlet on the frame.
i hope they sell it with 10sp advent drivetrain. 12speed on an eeb is pointless.
looks like a focus too -
i quite like the high pivot though
12speed on an eeb is pointless.
Is it? Shimano motors seem to work better with a high cadence, so offering more options to keep cadence high seems sensible. Happy to be proved wrong, as ever!.
Looks the business.
Pinkbike seems to have crashed. They must love it and can't get enough I assume.
Check the depressingly predictable comments. I guess keyboard-wielding philosophy professors are the same all over the world.
As a marketing person with a philosophy degree (and a keyboard), I resemble this comment.
The name is clearly a bit sub-optimal, but at least it's not as cringey as Sick! Bicycles.
Let's all just accept it and move on with our lives.
As eebs go I think it looks a lot better than most, though the welds look somewhat chunky and that saddle needs replacing.
Will these be able to be built into a 'light' ebike ala Orbea Rise/Spesh LS models? Not sure tbh how they control the weight, the Orbea has the same EP8 motor (with a retune) so is it mostly battery?
The lightweight ebike market needs some competition and being able to choose your battery size would be a real bonus.
ta11pau1
Will these be able to be built into a ‘light’ ebike ala Orbea Rise/Spesh LS models? Not sure tbh how they control the weight, the Orbea has the same EP8 motor (with a retune) so is it mostly battery?
The Rise has a smaller non removable battery, which is a big part of the weight saving. Outside of that, it also uses mostly non e-bike parts, so regular forks, tyres, etc.
i hope they sell it with 10sp advent drivetrain. 12speed on an eeb is pointless
disclaimer, I say this as someone who has had a few goes on ebikes, and has observed a number of people using them and overtaking me on them; not as an owner or afficionado.
From the people who seem to be using them well (that is, not riding slowly with their non-e friends, and not totally incompetent), there is no need for really low gearing. Going slower than a brisk walk is no good for bike riding.
We've all got low gears because we need the rest, or need to sit and spin on a long climb with our meagre meat-watts. But for actual techincal climbing, where you are inputting power through the pedals, you need a taller gear.
If I fail a low speed-techincal or uphill move, my first thought is to try again, one gear higher.
Eagle 52 tooth might climb a near vertical fire road without fatiguing you, but to get up a rock step, you need something to push against that doesnt just spin out the rear wheel.
With a motor providing most of the power, the first half of the above is irrelevent.
So I'd argue that you only need to pedal at your preferred cadence, between 5mph and 15.5mph. Especially on a heavy full power big travel soft tyred monster like this, pedalling above the cut off is unlikely to happen much.
So based on the above, a 11-34 cassette would work - with chainring sized to your preference and rear wheel size. Bonus of taking some unsprung weight off the rear axle too.
The Rise has a smaller non removable battery, which is a big part of the weight saving. Outside of that, it also uses mostly non e-bike parts, so regular forks, tyres, etc.
Yeah, which will be customisable if they offer it as frame + motor.
However just seen on the facebook comments that an SL ebike might be next, so probably not for this one.
Is it? Shimano motors seem to work better with a high cadence, so offering more options to keep cadence high seems sensible. Happy to be proved wrong, as ever!.
Assuming there's no need to pedal past the limiter (especially on a long travel bike weighing 40lb+ with tacky tyres) then by that same argument you don't need the tall gears either.
A 327% 11-36 cassette gets you from walking pace to the limiter at the same cadence.
Will these be able to be built into a ‘light’ ebike ala Orbea Rise/Spesh LS models? Not sure tbh how they control the weight, the Orbea has the same EP8 motor (with a retune) so is it mostly battery?
It's there in the article. They had to make a decision and it sounds like they made it in 2019.
Personally I'm only interested in a full-fat e-mtb. I don't need one for health reasons (whatever people mean by that) and I don't need a little bit of assistance on the occasional long ride. It would hopefully fill the gap left by my much missed but dusty and unused DH bike. I'd use it to do as many laps as possible on steep, tech trails where in the dark ages we used to push our bikes back up the hill.
As long as it handles like a beast on the way down and can replace a stinky, diesel uplift bus on the way up that's all I want.
It’s there in the article. They had to make a decision and it sounds like they made it in 2019.
It doesn't actually say what the answers to those design decisions were though 😀
Like I said, I don't know how much weight the battery size factors into it, or if the frame itself has to be designed as an SL rather than a full fat ebike.
An SL ebike interests me greatly for big days out in the big hills, enough assistance to take the edge off 5 days solid riding but (just) light enough to be able to hike-a-bike or not put my back out lifting it over gates etc.
TBH I won't be in the market for another couple of years so an SL version in 2024 would suit me fine!