Ethic e-bike by Bird

Just heli tape over the charging port, me and every other riding buddy I know don't use it anyway, take battery out to charge it and give it a wipe down while you do.

Don't all systems pedals turn in walk mode? my Bosch certainly does. Doesn't bother me, what does is that it's too quick, walk mode needs slowed down as it's only ever used on really steep greasy stuff, and you ain't keeping up with it!.

Garmin watch means no need for dedicated bike unit, if you really need nav, the Kiox unit on mine does it, never used shimano but expect it could too?.

Generally speaking I don’t really like how e bikes look but I think that looks pretty smart in a kind of rugged purposeful way . Dan said on social media yesterday that there won’t be stock till 2023 !

Meh. Looks like an e-bike. The downtube logo is gopping though. Surely that bit won't make it to the production bikes.

By the time they're in stock I might be old enough to need one.

Looks terrible, even by gopping ebike standards imo.

Video now unavailable. Did someone jump the gun?

They could at least have filmed the test video in Ethics - an e-bike would be really handy in the Epping Forest winter slop.

Video now unavailable. Did someone jump the gun?

The filmer was getting a load of stick in the comments for naming the trails, which are apparently subject to a "no advertising" agreement with the landowner.

Says is quietly....quite like the logo.

But....."Ethic"? Is there some element of sustainability or ethical manufacturing in the design/manufacture of this sub-brand I'm not aware of? Ethic would be a great name for an ebike company making bikes that were getting folk out of cars in cities...but an eMTB called Ethic - not so much. Or in fact at all.

I can't remember why Ethic exactly, but they're not Bird because another brand called Bird makes Commuter EBikes I think.

I'll wait until the finished bikes are ready, but it will be likely my first E-bike, it's make for an easy transition between riding my 145LT and I love the way they ride, they're also a great company to deal with.

The filmer was getting a load of stick in the comments for naming the trails, which are apparently subject to a “no advertising” agreement with the landowner.

Fair enough. All these bloody Choobers have got a lot to answer for when it comes to blowing up local spots.

They could at least have filmed the test video in Ethics

i can't see it now without picturing jamie oliver pronouncing it.

Not fussed about the logo, but certainly could be tempted by an eBike from a brand known for good geometry, value pricing, great customer service and custom builds.

Just about ticks all the boxes, my only worry is warranty support for a motor over here, if bought from a UK(non-EU) company.

Bird have always liked fairly prominent logos. Look at the AM9, there is barely a tube without a logo of some sort on.

I quite like the ebike, looks very utilitarian, blunt and purposeful. I am looking forward to seeing how the finished article looks and prices up compared to the competition.

Yeah, I have seen it in the flesh. It looks great, like a bulked up AM9. Purposeful. If you like the raw AM9s and you want e, then you will like this.

I like it. Like the big logo, the geometry sounds similar to the E Sommet but with the option of mullet or full 29 and a flip chip it moves the game on.

The charging port is in a bad spot, so hopefully it'll be moved but those saying it looks like an e bike, is there some other magic way you've considered to hide the large battery? Until tech catches up with smaller battery sizes then that design will be set for a while.

Will be interested to see and hear more about it in the coming months. I stopped short of buying the Aether 9 and instead went full fat EP8 and think it was the right choice. I love e-mtbs and I'm not old or unfit enough to need one. They're just brilliant fun up or down hill. Good to see a company like Bird getting on board with the technology.

I think it looks great, well done to the bird team.  I mean I wouldn’t want a Shimano motor in mine.  But I’m sure others would.

Look interesting, my Vitus E-Sommet isn't far off 4 years old now and with current e-bike prices I'm not sure I'll be able to afford (or justify) replacing it. No indication of pricing on these yet I guess?
Few things though, charge port location is terrible, I always charge on the bike except in the depths of winter when I take the battery indoors
Coil shock - love the idea but in my experience from normal bikes coils do rob pop and that's the last thing a big old enduro e-bike needs. Hopefully there will be shock options, think Bird do this on other bikes
And Shimano - the E8000 system on my bike is great but Shimano's lack of support for aftermarket maintenance is shocking, I said I wouldn't have another Shimano e-bike until they sort it out but knowing Shimano they won't unless forced by legislation. I have about 6 months rolling warranty left on motor 2 so if it fails after that it could well render the whole frame unusable if I can't source a replacement. I'd like to see a Bosch equipped version of the Ethic

In the beauty contest between full-fat ebikes, this is at or near the top in my opinion. Granted its not a high bar but at least it doesnt look like an aluminium boa constrictor has swallowed a toaster.

Regarding pricing, I remember Ben saying a while back that they weren't going to gouge people on the price like a lot of brands are doing, so it will be the equivilent of a same spec Bird + motor & battery.

In the beauty contest between full-fat ebikes

"Beauty contest" doing some heavy lifting there.

What's the real-world equivalent of a "least gopping" contest, anyone?

Birds are hardly beauty queens as they are (IMO), their value resides somewhere else.
What one gets is a top of the food chain performance bike, for a fair price and incredible reliability and durability. I'm OK with that trade-off.

I've seen people referring to Bird as "really great for the price" and I think that's an understatement. They´re really great regardless of the budget

a full-fat ebike

Was expecting 4" tyres. What's a full-fat e-bike vs an e-FS / e -MTB? Same?

Should have just went simple and called it Bird-E
Then i could go to the bike shop and ask "How much is that Bird-E in the window, and are any going cheap?" etc

Haha, internet win!

Don’t all systems pedals turn in walk mode?

No idea, but still it'd be more shin/clothing-friendly if they didn't.

walk mode needs slowed down

Sounds like something that should be configurable (within a range) in the settings menu or when you pair it with your phone.

Garmin watch means no need for dedicated bike unit

It'd be nice to have the option of putting one there, if that's your existing or preferred device.

I can’t remember why Ethic exactly, but they’re not Bird because another brand called Bird makes Commuter EBikes I think.

That and more - explained in the article I linked.

Was expecting 4″ tyres. What’s a full-fat e-bike vs an e-FS / e -MTB? Same?

I used the term to distinguish it from things like the Levo SL and Orbea Rise. Not an e-fatbike.

And Shimano – the E8000 system on my bike is great but Shimano’s lack of support for aftermarket maintenance is shocking, I said I wouldn’t have another Shimano e-bike until they sort it out but knowing Shimano they won’t unless forced by legislation. I have about 6 months rolling warranty left on motor 2 so if it fails after that it could well render the whole frame unusable if I can’t source a replacement. I’d like to see a Bosch equipped version of the Ethic

100% agree with this!

Shimano motors are essentially disposable. Entire motor (and therefore the frame) is rendered a paper weight if a sensor fails. I wouldn't buy another.

Was expecting 4″ tyres. What’s a full-fat e-bike vs an e-FS / e -MTB? Same?

Refers to the full battery ie 625w as opposed to the lighter-but-still-heavy-as-**** orbea rise type bikes.

Got it.

Hey, Ethic (and Bird) designer here.

Thanks for the interest and comments, it's nice to know there's some interest in the Ethic.

On the charging port I looked at all the options available on the frame layout and it was a choice between putting the charging port where it is, or not having one at all. I've been riding the bike for a few months now in some really filthy conditions and haven't had any issues with the charging port. If I'm away somewhere then the battery comes out to charge overnight, and if the mud has dried onto the frame then it is easily chipped / brushed away to get to the charging port. I haven't found any dirt getting into the charging connector itself. I've worn out one cassette already in 600km (this was a surprise to me as I'm religious with clearing the drivetrain) which should give you an idea of the amount of use the bike has had so far.

The current 2 prototypes have had a lot of development already (thanks for lots of 3D printed parts) and the production design is finished and with the fabricator. Quite a few parts have changed, but the overall geometry and kinematics are identical to the prototypes. I'm very happy with how they ride!

I'm happy to answer any questions, fire away.

Dan

I’m happy to answer any questions, fire away.

When can I take a demo bike to Hamsterley and ride the wheels off it?

Why ethic?  Misspelled ethnic or is it supposed to be ethical?

I’ve worn out one cassette already in 600km (this was a surprise to me as I’m religious with clearing the drivetrain)

Use putoline - thousands of miles of life from a drivetrain!

I chose the name, it is meant to be Ethic. To be honest I just liked the sound of it.

On an E-bike drivetrain? I use Smoove which is excellent in my view.

Sorry, I obviously need a lesson in how to use the forum to reply to individual posts!

I chose the name, it is meant to be Ethic. To be honest I just liked the sound of it.

Well at least its not smutty but sounds weird to me 🙂  But then I have a lisp

On an E-bike drivetrain? I use Smoove which is excellent in my view.

Yes - mainly used on road but by no means always.  6000+ miles so far and its still fine.  also used on the tandem which is mainly offroad- 3000+ miles from a chain at least.

600 miles mean the lube was not working IMO

Smoove works great on my other bikes with reasonable drivetrain wear. Perhaps it doesn't work as well in high load scenarios, perhaps it was the sunrace cassette (it's all I could get hold of at the time). Either way it was a surprise to not be able replace the chain at 0.75 stretch and the cassette to not accept a new chain. Usually I get 3 chains out of a cassette and it skips on the 4th. On my previous bike I had a shimano XT 12 speed cassette on for 2 years, it still hasn't worn out.

I now have a shimano cassette on the Ethic, will see how that lasts.

Shimano motors are essentially disposable. Entire motor (and therefore the frame) is rendered a paper weight if a sensor fails. I wouldn’t buy another.

Don't you just end up buying a new motor in that scenario?

I mean just because its not covered by warranty doesn't mean you won't be able to replace it when required.

To be honest I just liked the sound of it.

Bird owner/ lover of brand here but......not sure that's a good enough reason.

'Ethic' as a name will rather imply to most people an ethical element to the product line. Yes, Evil Bikes were not actually evil, Iron Horses were not actually horses and Orange bike come in other colours. But 'Ethic'...just feels like a claim-in-a-name that will need backing up or justifying at every turn and/or a little whiff of misselling (unless it's set up not for profit or an amazing recycling scheme or something).

@danbird

been watching the developments with interest.

currently riding an am9 in xl, will an ethic in the same size with 29 wheels feel/ride the same (weight excepted)

also absolutely frothing for one of these

‘Ethic’ as a name will rather imply to most people an ethical element to the product line.

Maybe its a alluding to the ethics of riding an ebike if you don't have any kind of disability.

Or riding a motorized vehicle in places where motorized vehicles are not allowed.

I think it looks pretty good, nicer than that carbon bike Bird released a while ago.

So Shimano treat their motors as disposable? We shouldn’t be surprised, they treat their brakes and other components as disposable as well - when was the last time you could buy a rebuild kit for Deore, SLX, Zee or XT brakes? Or even a spare part.

In my opinion this is a massive failing for the company (and a lot of other bike companies).

I do like the Bosch motor, although not tried a Shimano one yet but if the Bosch can be serviced and reconditioned by 3rd parties and Shimano can’t then that will be a big factor for me when choosing an ebike

@convert

The name Ethic may be confused by some with the word ethical, but I hope you agree that the "al" makes a big difference in the meaning of the word.

@Lummox

The Ethic will feel like a natural progression from the same size AM9 V3. I've updated the geometry somewhat. 64 degree head angle with a 160mm fork, and a steeper seat angle too (that varies between the sizes)

Not really. Ask 100 people what associated words they would think of in relation to the brand name 'Ethic' and I think we both know what they'd be.

Maybe its a alluding to the ethics of riding an ebike if you don’t have any kind of disability

What are they?

Or riding a motor assisted vehicle in places where fully motorized vehicles are not allowed.

FTFY, what's the problem?

E-bikes have been in mainstream MTBing for 6 getting on 7 years now, and aren't going away. You would have thought folk would have got over this by now eh?
Bike looks pretty good IMO, all relative like, dare we ask the weight?

Will Shimano let you sell it frame only, that's the key question for me!

My current bike is 25kg, that's with 170mm Zebs, a Formula Mod coil shock and Rimpact Pros front and rear on Hope/EX511 rims.

I'm not sure how I can make it any heavier to be honest 😂

I actually only noticed the extra weight for the first hour keep so of riding. Then I adjusted and its feels normal now.

Will Shimano let you sell it frame only, that’s the key question for me!

this - more likely to buy an ebike if I could get a frame and motor. No interest in buying a whole new bike when I have decent parts on my current one.

@snotrag

I'm not aware of any restrictions on us selling it frame only (with all the bits you need to make it work, and pre-programmed for a specific wheel size) , and we are planning on doing so.

Having said that, I'll double check with Shimano closer to launch.

The name Ethic may be confused by some with the word ethical, but I hope you agree that the “al” makes a big difference in the meaning of the word.

Not really 0- I am hugely confused by this statement.

to me ones ethic is philosophy you live by.  Ethical is following the accepted ethic of your community

“Use putoline – thousands of miles of life from a drivetrain!”

If only that was true - I’ve used Putoline on my Levo from pretty early on. By 1000 miles the cassette is wrecked to the point it’s almost unrideable. Changing chains doesn’t work because they stop meshing within less than a few hundred miles.

I love ebikes but the chains and cassettes are a serious weak point.

Bird-E looks cool!

@chiefgrooveguru

I'm looking forward to testing the new Shimano Linkglide drivetrain to see if it delivers on the promise of longer life

“ I’m looking forward to testing the new Shimano Linkglide drivetrain to see if it delivers on the promise of longer life”

I look forward to the results! I have a small pile of 11 speed cassettes and chains to get me through the worsening parts drought of the coming years but I’m ready to swap to Linkglide if it does what it claims!

Could have flipped the letters of bird around and called it ribd. For you pleasure.....

Being an E-bike I can't help but read it as E-thic. Probably not what was intended.

Also not convinced by the name, too many connotations that an aluminium framed, battery containing, high carbon footprint toy can't really fulfil.

I do like bird-E though......

Good looking bike imo, chonky and solid looking. Name doesn't really work for me either and yep I think it has a connotation like "we are a really ethical bike company and are carbon neutral and weave frames out of hemp". But mostly I don't want a bike with ETHIC written down the side in massive letters.

But I'm pretty confident it'll ride great.

It’s a good looking bike, like all Bird bikes. their graphics generally look like an afterthought to me.

will they be made in Britain like all Bird bikes?

Don’t all systems pedals turn in walk mode?

No idea, but still it’d be more shin/clothing-friendly if they didn’t.

wouldn’t the pedals be forced to turn if the motor is moving the chain to turn the back wheel?

ethic is not a good name if there isn’t an ethical element to the product and for a company that advertises suspension frame prices without including a shock, it’s a particularly poor choice.

Being an E-bike I can’t help but read it as E-thic. Probably not what was intended

+1, in thicest Yorkshire accent possible.

@lat (and others who have commented on the name)

The word Ethic (as in, this is our ride ethic, work ethic, design ethic) does not mean the same thing as the word "Ethical".

What we learned from the Bird brand is that the actual word (Bird or Ethic) doesn't matter. What matters is how your products perform and how you treat your customers. Branding is much, much more than one word.

We had to launch our Ebikes under a new brand due to someone else holding the trademark for "Birdy" Ebikes. Due to similarity rules you can't also have Bird Ebikes.

Ethic is the new brand, the first Ebike under that brand will also have a name that we haven't released yet.

Happy to answer more questions about the bike, but can we move on from "I don't like that it's called Ethic" please?

No such thing as bad publicity though is there? A bit of chat about the name has lodged it in my brain and if I was in the market for an ebike (I'm not) then the name wouldn't come into my decision making at all.

I'll just chip in on the definition of "Ethic". As Dan has said  ethics are just a set of moral principles. Which individuals may or may not agree with. In a broad sense Fascism has its own ethics  as does communism. Opposite ends of the political spectrum (unless you subscribe to the horseshoe theory, but that's a different discussion) with ethical principles that are an anathema to those of differing political persuasions.

That being the case, calling a brand Ethic at worst implies that it is run on a set of broad principles, but isn't in anyway stating what those principles are.

In brief, those confusing Ethic with ethical (and bear in mind that ethical in itself can mean different things to different people) need to do two minutes of research before self righteously frothing all over the keyboard.

Nice looking bike by the way. Though that stuff about the Shimano motors is concerning

In brief, those confusing Ethic with ethical (and bear in mind that ethical in itself can mean different things to different people) need to do two minutes of research before self righteously frothing all over the keyboard.

I agree with this, and I got a first in ethics (not in Essex) so I should know.

😉

But more generally, who really gives a shit? I'd have tried to pick something ornithological, though I see "Wing" ebikes appears to be taken. But Dan is right, the marketing messaging and execution is more important than the name (I work in marketing myself).

I'd say the only person self righteously frothing here is you. I'd go and check your bloody pressure fella. 😏

You may or may not be right about the entomology of the term ethic. We all live by some sort of ethic and that may or may not be a positive one. As it happens I'd say Bird do have a good ethic towards their customer base so maybe that what was being inferred.

But regardless of what "2 minutes of research" would achieve I'll say again....go ask 100 people for a set of key words a new brand call "Ethic" wants to espouse about itself and there would be a very clear direction of travel.

It just seems a very curious choice in a language of millions of words to choose from if you don't want it to be a topic of conversation - as Dan clearly doesn't 😏

But more generally, who really gives a shit?

This.

Maybe it’s about their work ethic? As said above (but pretty much ignored by everyone complaining) ethic and ethical mean very different things.
Bezos and Musk have a set of ethics that they work with, but you’d probably not call either of them ethical.

I can't see the pic due to work VPN... but is it LLS like the Aethers ?

Due to similarity rules you can’t also have Bird Ebikes.

What about E-grit?

Good name for an E-Gravel bike 👌
You can have that for nothing.

wouldn’t the pedals be forced to turn if the motor is moving the chain to turn the back wheel?

No there is a frreewheel between the pedals and the motor.  If the pedals are turning ( not just a bit from drag but under motor power) then something is wrong with the motor.  watch the chainring when you stop pedalling - it continues to turn for half a turn or so.

ethic and ethical mean very different things.

Really?  Please explain because to me ethic is your own personal code and ethical is following the code of your community - same word from same root with the same meaning

Happy to answer more questions about the bike, but can we move on from “I don’t like that it’s called Ethic” please?

I wouldn't worry about it. It's just STW'ers doing what they do.

In the real world people will only care how good the bike is. I'm looking forward to more information. I'm not in the market yet but there's a gnarly, e-powered MTB in my near future that's for certain.

the actual word (Bird or Ethic) doesn’t matter.

+1

What matters is how your products perform

+100

how you treat your customers

+1000

Good old STW! @danbird has been good enough and transparent enough to come on here and discuss a pre-release product and the pedants come out of the woodwork and whine about the brand name. I guess we could debate the etymology of "Giant", "Trek", "Transition", etc... but I doubt a representative of those companies would patiently and politely join in. It reminds me of the instant, anti-social responses to any of @repackriders posts.

but can we move on..

I laugh in the face of your naivety 😆

@danbird
what is the rough price for this going to be?
when do you think you will have them for sale ?
I know you are using bennachie bikes as a dealer but do you have anyone lined up that's west of Scotland or central belt?

@stevie750

Final pricing isn't worked out yet, but it'll be similar to Bird bikes in that you'll be able to customise the build through the website, and they'll be great value too.

We are looking at partnering with local shops / demo centres so that we can provide more local support for the Ebikes.

@benpinnick will be able to share more details on our plans for local service center / sales partners

ethic is not a good name if there isn’t an ethical element to the product and for a company that advertises suspension frame prices without including a shock, it’s a particularly poor choice.

To do otherwise with regards frame pricing would be oddly unethical I would say (in the traditionally accepted sense). Forcing people to purchase products they don't need and at a price they didn't need to pay in order we squeeze a few more pounds profit on that frame sale. We don't 'advertise' in the normal sense, and nor do we control the copy of websites (other than Pinkbike to a certain extent) so you'd not find a 'ad' with a picture of a frame and shock and a big £xxx price tag anywhere, and if you saw it in a mag or bike website then sorry, but I can also tell you that probably 50% of articles ever written on our bikes contain some inaccuracy in terms of the spec sent (and hence the price you'd pay) thats created during the process of the copy writing for the mag. Thats the nature of the beast and out of our control as we don't get to see it before it hits print but its usually minor and probably doesn't materially impact a purchasing decision.

So where would you see it? On our site of course, as a 'From' price. Thats where I guess. Why is it like that? Because that is the from price. Around 1 in 15, maybe more, of FS frames are sold without shocks. We offer that because we don't believe its right to force someone to buy something they don't need (when its a complex, expensive and very obviously needed part). We do offer frame-specific tune shock options from just £160 so its not like we're selling the frame cheap and then robbing you blind for the shock afterwards either. Nor did we make some proprietary shock mount or size to lock you into our products. Each component's price is set fairly and relative to the cost it costs us, and you choose what you do and don't want.

We do however strive to maintain standards as long as they are still relevant and the best* choice. That means that our customers can often swap models with minimal new parts needed including no need for a new shock, and we also sell frames to people getting shocks we don't supply too. Since we choose to stay with shock fitment styles and lengths/strokes that are widely available you can choose a shock from virtually any manufacturer you want. We do RockShox, Canecreek, Fox and EXT right now, and are adding FAST and Formula for 2022 but you can still find a good number more that might float your boat, and if they do, great. We offer free advice to any shock tuner wanting to build a shock for one of our bikes on behalf of a customer (even if they bought the bike second hand - there's no qualifier) and spend a reasonable amount of time supporting them to do so.

So back to the From Price. Thats calculated by the e-commerce system as the cheapest way to buy that frame. You can buy a shock, you can not buy a shock. It's your choice. The same applies to all the other components bar the basics like mech hanger, cable clips and axle if its 'custom**'. In order to make the 'from' price include a shock, I would need to remove the choice of having no shock. Which would make no sense at all.

So there you go. Thats our way of doing things and we're not going to be changing it anytime soon. We'll be offering the new eBike as a frame + motor option and full bike assuming no one tells us we can't, yes you'll still have to add a shock if you want one, but all those people with 145s, AM160s and AM9s or any bike with a standard mounting 230 x 65 (which includes most 60/62.5 shocks too) will be able to reuse their shocks onto that frame if they wish (Some retuning might be advised on certain shock models, but not all).
I'd say as a business we have a pretty strong ethic in terms of how we build bikes and treat our customers. Whether that makes us ethical in the broadly interpreted sense is a different question.

* Best doesn't necessarily mean technically the most stiff/lightest/strongest/shiniest. It's a blend of function and practicality, which includes things like whether a customer is likely to have a box of compatible parts at home, and often whether its going to enable a customer to port from one frame of ours to another. With or without a new shock.

** We do make custom axles, however we do ensure they're backwards compatible with the mainstream versions. For example your Aether 9c would come with a custom axle as it gives the frame a nice clean line at that part of the frame, however you could run it with a stock Maxle/Brand X/Burgtec etc. in UDH Boost spec. They all work - we made sure our design didn't preclude the aftermarket options too for when you need to buy one in a hurry.

E-grit is a work of genius!

Bezos and Musk have a set of ethics that they work with, but you’d probably not call either of them ethical.

Great example. So if Bezos came out with an Amazon sub-brand called "Ethic" with the same business model to the Amazon brand and said - "Ha, well I never said Ethical did I, I just liked the word", do you think the general consensus would be "well, fair enough" or would it be "you cheeky ****er!"

I'm not sure if comparing Dan and Ben to Geoff Bezos is a compliment or a massive slur! Their ethics towards customers and staff are certainly very different!

@danbird

I'd be interested to know a bit more about the "options with our partners to allow customers to access the bikes without the high upfront costs of purchase or the maintenance overhead"

Will it be a simple 0% finance style deal, or something more revolutionary? To be honest if/when I get one it'll be via R2W like a bought my 145LT, but I've got a background in Asset Finance and find new funding methods interesting (I've sought help for it, but it's incurable).

Good old STW! @danbird has been good enough and transparent enough to come on here and discuss a pre-release product and the pedants come out of the woodwork and whine about the brand name.

It wasn't whining by me - I just said I thought it odd and made a joke at my expense as to why I found it odd then when people were claiming that the two words had differnt meanings asked them to explain.  Your point is quite valid tho

It reminds me of the instant, anti-social responses to any of @repackriders posts.

Repackrider deserves everything he gets.  He makes grandiose claims and is quite honestly rather nauseating in his false bragging