[Closed] Erg mode - a training question...

Are you using an app to control the intervals?  Does it not have up and down buttons so you can tweak the intensity in the situation you describe?

It does, but I was close to the bottom end of my VO2max so I didn’t want to go lower and be outside the zone changing the nature of the interval.

8 minutes at VO2 max is never going to be easy. ERG mode is just making you do the power required, pick up the cadence to reduce the muscular force as it will drop the resistance (seems counterintuitive, but that is what you need to do). If you slow cadence down (as you've found out) it will kill you. If you can't do the power, you can't do the power, which maybe isn't surprising doing two hard interval days back to back.

The usual definition of VO2 max intervals is  as hard as you can go for 4 minutes. I couldn’t do 8 minutes at that pace.

One thing that can help slightly is to use a harder gear on the trainer.  This means that the flywheel has more inertia so you can get away with a momentary drop in power for a fraction of a second longer, which can be enough to avoid the spiral of doom.  Alternatively, try dropping down a gear when you're about to crack in order to give yourself a momentary reprieve while the trainer catches up and brings you back up to target power.

Really though, in erg mode there's no avoiding the fact that if you can't get through an interval then you're going to have to stop, wait for the watts to drop, and restart.

I don't know what platform you're using, but on TrainerRoad you can drop the intensity down by a certain percentage mid-session (I believe you can do the same in Zwift but in bigger percentage jumps).  However, trying to do that on the fly when you're about to crack is another issue.

spiral of doom

Good description, and thanks for the gears tips, I'll try that.  Yes once you drop cadence its very hard to put in the extra effort to get back up to cadence - shifting from muscular toward aerobic force - when your legs are screaming.

Yes, that's just how it is. I find it helps to go into the interval spinning higher than called for, say 10 rpm or so. If you can't complete the intervals, just, maybe you need to scale back the target slightly. Could you ask your coach, assuming you still have one?

Could you ask your coach, assuming you still have one?

I can.  I'm aware any lower of an effort takes me out of Vo2max, and to be fair, this is the first week of a 5 week training block - and the first week after a month off - so I'm effectively training "up" to increase my Vo2max before December.  It could be that I'm doing much better in 5 weeks time.

I have my answer - it is what it is and I need to try to cope and push myself, extending time at Vo2max where possible to create training adaptation.  Erg mode on forces that a bit.

nothing more soul destroying and ERG wattage slapdown.
I tend to weep gently to myself until the my training overload once again blesses me with the gift of tuning the pedals

good little vid about ERG

b) Its bad, because I can’t back off a little sensibly as the resistance just increases and moves to <span style="font-family: Thread-00000a44-Id-00000124;">more</span> muscular force at low cadence, so I’m forced to let the turbo drop the through the Watts floor, restart Erg mode which basically has the effect of 1 minute easy before I can restart, reducing the amount of VO2max I can achieve from the interval.

I’d welcome any sensible thoughts re training stimulation/ performance rather than MTFU type responses…

yep, decent erg mode is going to try to keep you at designated power regardless of cadence, you could backpedal and drop the intensity percentage but that isn't really the fix. My suggestion is to review the workout before you start and decide on your chances of completing it.  I know I used to place a lot of stock on finishing a workout rather than accepting that I couldn't complete it on that day,  but now try to be a lot more relaxed about it now and accept that my body has given all it could during that session and will be generating adaption and improvement as a result, or in short. just because you couldn't complete a session doesn't mean it was in any way a failure.

Your other option, and probably the most practical one is to swap out your session for one that conveys a similar benefit - E.G - swap your 8 min vo2 max workout for something like huffaker which is 6 x 3 min vo2 intervals and also gives you a good dose of TSS

edit: sorry assumes you are using trainer road but I guess the principle of trying shorter vo2 max sessions applies.

Yes a fair point, in the end I did record 18 mins of 24 in Vo2max and dropped 600 cals in an hours workout which is better than sitting on the sofa.

I know I used to place a lot of stock on finishing a workout rather than accepting that I couldn’t complete it on that day,  but now try to be a lot more relaxed about it now and accept that my body has given all it could during that session

Very much this.  I was annoyed at "failing" last night, but today am more pragmatic about next weeks version for the same and increasing time spent at VO2 max.  Interestingly next weeks session is 4 x 6 mins rather than 3 x 8 mins, I reckon I can get the first 2 intervals done.

The Sufferfest has a blog / help article somewhere about failing in workouts. From vague memory, their advice is to... think about increasing the recovery between sets slightly. Reduce the intensity - their workouts have an intensity slider in % format. Or just accept you're screwed and give up, which is what I did yesterday.

Reducing intensity is going to shift the impact of a session, but it depends what you're doing. If it's an FTP session and it simply drops you into a sweetspot zone, it's probably not going to reduce the benefit much, but ime it's the harder VO2 Max and above that really kill you if you're a bit below par.

Good luck!

Trainer Road Podcast #182 had an interview with a US national masters XC championship winning rider who asked more or less the same question (it was reassuring to hear even a guy at his level had these sort of concerns).  Chad's advice was back pedal for a ten seconds or until you feel just recovered and then get back in.  It'll still be hard so don't feel like that is cheating.  The key thing with the VO2 was not to drop the intensity - you'll still be getting benefits, just not as much.

Bit of update after I talked to my coach.  I've got four more weeks of this so...

a) we dropped the intervals by 20w albeit I'm still in VO2max just not at the very top, and over the course of the next four weeks I'll aim to complete the intervals and incrementally increasing the watts as I feel I can.  His view is to aim to consistently complete the intervals only to be defaulting in the final minute of the final interval if I have to, consistently.

b) Switch of Erg mode for these sessions and leave it to the more mindless sessions such as Z2.  Not only does this avoid the spiral of death, his view is that it help me physically and mentality train myself to stay on power during race time when I can move above FTP into high VO2max for attacks on climbs - and sustain it.

I'd suggest you work out your actual vo2max as measured on that machine, eg with the standard ramp test. If you can do multiple sets of 8 or even 6 mins it's probably not vo2max as I understand it.

Tried to do that myself yesterday and ran out of intervals which was encouraging 🙂 though with hindsight I was just being too pessimistic and should have known. Amazing tool though to be able to set up fixed wattages and times (New kickr core as a winter training present).

A fine distinction perhaps but if I was wanting to do vo2max intervals I wouldn't make them more than 5 mins and would historically have expected to be slowing at the end. Erg mode has the potential to change that of course, but better to set the power a few percent down than blow up completely.

My VO2max has been tested professionally and I’m working to specified power zones.

I had much better luck lowering my power a tad last night for 30s intervals, averaging 500w+ x 8.  I thought that’s was OK for my 3rd straight day of intervals/training, I can push higher next time.

2 days rest now until I do the 4 x 6min @ VO2max Friday night, I’ll post up how I get on without erg.