[Closed] Enduro vs DH participation in the UK

I think DH is quite specific and also very focused.

You average trail centre junkie can get down an Enduro course without the certainty of instant death, but they're unlikely to make it down a DH track without several broken bones.

So some of the people who once may have considered DH are now thinking "Well, Enduro is at least possible for me... so i'm entering that".

'We' are not all 16 and invincible, MTBing is in a lot of ways a middle aged mans sport as we know. Learning to do DH and proper jumps is often very painful... .with lives and jobs, painful is a bad idea.

There's a lot of graphs, so if you like graphs I expect you'd enjoy that.

I kind of didn't see the point in it to be honest. I mean, everything had a graph, but I didn't feel like there was anything revelatory really.

Site looks nice with some good images. Not sure about the name and whether it's all a bit too snarky misery guts... 👍

Lots of graphs but little in the way of insightful summary.  Learned nothing new and it was all pretty obvious.

Why not ask some important questions and provide well researched / proven answers to these questions.

3/10 really.

I kind of didn’t see the point in it to be honest. I mean, everything had a graph, but I didn’t feel like there was anything revelatory really.

Totally agree! The article was started after the failure of UKGE was published and there seemed to be a general feeling that enduro was over, racing in general is in decline etc. Based on the Roots and Rain data though , it seems things are..... doing ok. Not great, but not terrible.

Site looks nice with some good images. Not sure about the name and whether it’s all a bit too snarky misery guts…

😊 true. We started it up as a bit of a joke at all the constant 5 start reviews all the big sites seem to give every product, where as our experience in general is far from this. Hopefully we can judge it right and not come over as a bunch of grumpy ****ts.

there seemed to be a general feeling that enduro was over

Where? Never seen any chat that enduro is 'over'? Oh well, at least I won't need to get up early to enter ard rock this year, shouldn't be a problem getting in....

I quite liked it. The maps at the end were interesting and supprising.

On a personal level I don't enter any event as

1. I live right on the south coast with its crap road links.

2. You seem to have to book 3 months in advance for entry to any of events

3. On the very odd occasion I get to do some real fun DH style mtbing (it's a big day trip so a full day) I want as many runs as possible so head to a uplift bike park.

You average trail centre junkie can get down an Enduro course without the certainty of instant death, but they’re unlikely to make it down a DH track without several broken bones.

Not sure I agree with you on that, I did local DH races on and off in the SE and south Wales for several years, I was certainly just making up the numbers and am no riding God...

Getting from top to bottom without a tumble was well within the skill set of any weekend trailcentre warrior, there's normally a chicken line on any gaps or big features, obviously I wasn't riding at national level but Rogate, porc, UKBP, Aston Hill, mtn Ash, Gethin (as was), etc were all OK for a bluffer like me, the thing that killed DH for me was the cost of the kit, shoestringing it became increasingly difficult and spending on a bike for occasional use...

Where? Never seen any chat that enduro is ‘over’? Oh well, at least I won’t need to get up early to enter ard rock this year, shouldn’t be a problem getting in….

In the wider context. 3 national series have failed due to lack of numbers, and there has been general doom and gloom in comments sections after each of those.

'Ard rock is proof of the opposite.

Why not ask some important questions and provide well researched / proven answers to these questions.

@Trimix any suggestions on things you'd like to read about?

2. You seem to have to book 3 months in advance for entry to any of events

You know these events take planning and money to put on right? Organisers need to know they aren’t going to be bankrupted because there turns out to be a bit of drizzle the week before and on the day? Or don’t want to be overwhelmed when hundreds of extra riders turn up on the day as it’s nice out and folk fancy it?

From the blurb on the site-

5 participation's.

Apostrophe fail and I closed the page. If you can't be arsed to do it right, I can't be arsed to read it.

Where? Never seen any chat that enduro is ‘over’? Oh well, at least I won’t need to get up early to enter ard rock this year, shouldn’t be a problem getting in….

In the wider context. 3 national series have failed due to lack of numbers, and there has been general doom and gloom in comments sections after each of those.

‘Ard rock is proof of the opposite.

Why not ask some important questions and provide well researched / proven answers to these questions.

@Trimix any suggestions on things you’d like to read about?

This could be an example of what Trimix means.  Presenting a bunch of graphs without giving the wider context you think you see, which in this case pretty much gives you a question, isn't insight.  It's just a summary of some numbers.  Not knocking it. It was quite interesting to see, and I hope you keep it up.  It's more than a lot of the cycling press try.

I thought the final maps were interesting.  You mention the DH races having a greater spread, and in terms of distances between furthest races it looks to be true, but there is a much more consistent spread between only slightly closer endpoints for enduro.

In the wider context. 3 national series have failed due to lack of numbers, and there has been general doom and gloom in comments sections after each of those.

Yes, those.comments mostly question why you can have such a popular event and not get the national series right.

You missed the real question in there.

weeksy

I think DH is quite specific and also very focused.

Agree with ths, and also there's a perception (rightly or wrongly) that you need a DH bike for DH, whereas Enduro is more suited to the bike you're probably ridoing trails on already, which nakes itmore accessible

Are these "DH Courses" a lot harder than the trails at Antur Stiniog ?

At least the hardest stuff at AS is avoidable. e.g. the 15 foot cliff drop on the Double Black

Are these “DH Courses” a lot harder than the trails at Antur Stiniog ?

Probably not go take a look at Pearce uplifts and races on Shropshire, great fun events and loads of fun tracks there. With a few in enduro bikes there too

I can only speak from personal experience as, what I would consider, a typical mountain biker. Enduro racing has much more appeal to for 2 key reasons.

1. Enduro racing is pretty similar to the type of riding I do week in week out; i.e. a loop of 30-40km riding up and down hill while maybe taking in particular favoured sections 2-3 times.

2. Enduro Racing doesn’t require any specific kit beyond that which I would take on any other ride. You can complete the course on the type of 'Trail' or 'All Mountain' bike the majority ride, be it full sus or hardtail, and the only mandatory safety equipment is a helmet, which almost everyone wears for trail riding. DH on the other hand requires both a bike and attire that won't get used outside of that specific environment.

For me, Enduro racing is pretty similar to a regular day out riding but with the added fun of the competition and camaraderie of the race, all held on trails that I don't regularly ride, or perhaps not have access to.

You can complete the course on the type of ‘Trail’ or ‘All Mountain’ bike the majority ride, be it full sus or hardtail, and the only mandatory safety equipment is a helmet, which almost everyone wears for trail riding. DH on the other hand requires both a bike and attire that won’t get used outside of that specific environment.

With the exception of the full face everything else I'd wear and use for dh is the same as enduro or tough trail riding and exactly the same as I'd use for a lift based alps trip.

It's a perception thing, ironically ews is closer to most people's events than wc downhill is.

In the wider context. 3 national series have failed due to lack of numbers

There's a lot of well documented reasons for those, I'd say lack of numbers was a symptom, rather than the root cause.

I think to some extent DH racing is killing DH Racing, and Enduro just stepped into the mix to absorb some of the capacity.

The problem with races over time is that they tend towards the vocal minority which is usually the ones saying its too easy, too short, not enough practice. This tends towards longer weekends, bigger tracks and gnarlier features. Thats great but it satisfies an ever diminishing group size.

Ultimately most Enduro races are DH races that are not too challenging, strung together with a nice ride. They simply took up the slack from DH at a high level, and at a lower level certainly killed off a lot of grass roots DH races I expect.

On your article my main comment would be the inclusion of 2018 numbers. You should have either extrapolated them or omitted them. Leaving them in offers no insight and confuses the graphs.

One of the main reasons for me not racing is Insurance, If I injure myself in a race event i'm not covered unless I take out a separate policy.

The likelihood of an injury during a race is higher as I would be less relaxed and arguably the course would be more difficult than the usual bike park stuff.

I used to ride a lot more DH 8 years ago but now it is difficult to find the time to travel to the various venues to practice, my local is pure flow and jumps.

If DH courses also included flow/jump tracks more often then I daresay I would be more inclined to enter as I know its within my comfort zone and capabilities.

Plus I don't have a DH rig in the stable just a 160mm FS.

On your article my main comment would be the inclusion of 2018 numbers. You should have either extrapolated them or omitted them

Agreed. Updated the post to remove them from the racer numbers, but left them in for the actual races, as I doubt there will be any additional races announced from now until end of the year.

 think to some extent DH racing is killing DH Racing,

From the Roots and Rain numbers, DH racing is doing fine. There is no killing. Entries have stayed steady since 2011, with a slight dip in number of races, but nothing disastrous. Maybe it just gets less coverage now at a grass roots level, so the impression is that it's in decline?

In the wider context. 3 national series have failed due to lack of numbers, and there has been general doom and gloom in comments sections after each of those.

First the is the didn't fail because a lack of riders. They failed because the riders choose other events over theirs.

Blog is not bad. Graphs are ok but to many, what about just some numbers instead. Here are so more interesting stuff from R&R:
Distinct competitors at UK enduro events:

2011 699
2012 1716
2013 2985
2014 4890
2015 6384
2016 8325
2017 9425
2018 7754 (to date)

And for DH:

2011 4199
2012 4889
2013 4272
2014 4205
2015 4912
2016 4647
2017 5105
2018 3646 (to date)

Total competitors(Which is one of your graphs):

Enduro:

2011 1160
2012 2771
2013 5355
2014 10037
2015 13536
2016 17635
2017 18508
2018 13212 (to date)

DH:

2011 13495
2012 14768
2013 13391
2014 13001
2015 14050
2016 13358
2017 13649
2018 7911 (to date)

Graphs are ok but to many, what about just some numbers instead

Didn't realise people disliked graphs so much! 😂

Where did you get 'Distinct competitors at UK enduro events' data from? I couldn't see it on the site.
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Perpetual - I'm not understanding the participations graphs. the second graph - total participations - should be a sum of the 2 lines on the graph above, no? which as enduro participations rose and DH stayed ~constant should show the same rise?

However, with this -

I can only speak from personal experience as, what I would consider, a typical mountain biker. Enduro racing has much more appeal to for 2 key reasons.

1. Enduro racing is pretty similar to the type of riding I do week in week out; i.e. a loop of 30-40km riding up and down hill while maybe taking in particular favoured sections 2-3 times.

2. Enduro Racing doesn’t require any specific kit beyond that which I would take on any other ride. You can complete the course on the type of ‘Trail’ or ‘All Mountain’ bike the majority ride, be it full sus or hardtail, and the only mandatory safety equipment is a helmet, which almost everyone wears for trail riding. DH on the other hand requires both a bike and attire that won’t get used outside of that specific environment.

would the other typical rider be one who goes to either a pushup or uplift most weekends, on either a DH bike or more commonly down here in the south, a big enduro bike. They pretty much only ride a bike in this manner, only own a full DH full face, etc. Probably the most skilled guys out there (in the general amateur population) but are they racing?

Aye, those numbers certainly make it look like enduro is dying off...

To your point @perpetualdisappointment you haven't factored in the growth of R&R. Since you start your data the number of races listed on R&R has grown alot. You'd find that there was alot of grass roots stuff back in 2011 that never made it there I suspect. If you look at the growth of event listings from 2010 > 2013 you see a reasonable growth in DH events, but I don't believe that 2013 was a golden year, I think its the awareness of the R&R site that drives the listings.

So if thats true, then seeing a small decline in total listings from 2011 > now probably indicates a bigger decline in real terms in both rider and racer numbers.

Also I think your total DH & Enduro participants numbers might be wrong as you have less for both in 2011 than just DH unless I am reading it wrong.

Don't forget kids, there's Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

You’d find that there was alot of grass roots stuff back in 2011 that never made it there I suspect

True. R&R has races going back into the 90s, and a lot of stuff from the early 2000s, but doing a little bit of research it seems like the site started in 2010/11. I assumed it was older.

Where did you get ‘Distinct competitors at UK enduro events’ data from? I couldn’t see it on the site.

From Seb at R&R

An interest comparison would of been partition in grassroots vs regional vs national vs festival type events in both DH and Enduro. It's not super easy to split them but it could be a good look at what type of event.

Did want to come back to say I loved the format/layout - simple graph, followed by a paragraph of discussion is neat and informative way of discussing this level of data in my opinion.

INteresting to see how low the to date numbers for both DH and Enduro are. There's not much left this year to offer a big boost I would think, so expect a dip for 2018. I blame brexit, obviously.

To your point @perpetualdisappointment you haven’t factored in the growth of R&R. Since you start your data the number of races listed on R&R has grown alot. You’d find that there was alot of grass roots stuff back in 2011 that never made it there I suspect. If you look at the growth of event listings from 2010 > 2013 you see a reasonable growth in DH events, but I don’t believe that 2013 was a golden year, I think its the awareness of the R&R site that drives the listings.

So if thats true, then seeing a small decline in total listings from 2011 > now probably indicates a bigger decline in real terms in both rider and racer numbers.

Also I think your total DH & Enduro participants numbers might be wrong as you have less for both in 2011 than just DH unless I am reading it wrong.

Don’t forget kids, there’s Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.

This is true also it was originally set up just for DH (Seb is from a DH background) Enduro was tagged on in 2012 ish then all then new organisers jumped straight on it and by 2014 all enduro races were on there.

DH was a bit more sporadic getting all the events on R&R but by 2016 ish most/all DH races were on there.

An interest comparison would of been partition in grassroots vs regional vs national vs festival type events in both DH and Enduro. It’s not super easy to split them but it could be a good look at what type of event.

That's a good idea. Quite like the idea of splitting them up by region too to see if there is anything interesting going on there.

Did want to come back to say I loved the format/layout – simple graph, followed by a paragraph of discussion is neat and informative way of discussing this level of data in my opinion.

Thanks!

However, with this –

I can only speak from personal experience as, what I would consider, a typical mountain biker. Enduro racing has much more appeal to for 2 key reasons.

1. Enduro racing is pretty similar to the type of riding I do week in week out; i.e. a loop of 30-40km riding up and down hill while maybe taking in particular favoured sections 2-3 times.

2. Enduro Racing doesn’t require any specific kit beyond that which I would take on any other ride. You can complete the course on the type of ‘Trail’ or ‘All Mountain’ bike the majority ride, be it full sus or hardtail, and the only mandatory safety equipment is a helmet, which almost everyone wears for trail riding. DH on the other hand requires both a bike and attire that won’t get used outside of that specific environment.

would the other typical rider be one who goes to either a pushup or uplift most weekends, on either a DH bike or more commonly down here in the south, a big enduro bike. They pretty much only ride a bike in this manner, only own a full DH full face, etc. Probably the most skilled guys out there (in the general amateur population) but are they racing?

As I said, I was speaking purely from personal experience, therefore there is certainly a high probability that my statement contains a high degree of confirmation bias! However I would be suprised if the number of riders who "goes to either a pushup or uplift most weekends, on either a DH bike or ... big enduro bike and pretty much only ride a bike in this manner, only own a full DH full face, etc." was greater than those riding 'Trail' loops for the majority of thier riding.

You know these events take planning and money to put on right? Organisers need to know they aren’t going to be bankrupted because there turns out to be a bit of drizzle the week before and on the day? Or don’t want to be overwhelmed when hundreds of extra riders turn up on the day as it’s nice out and folk fancy it?

Of course, I don't think I suggested any judgment of this in my post I only started this means it's difficult for me to enter any of them and I am sure this is the case for others. I have been polite with you now please lay off the needlessly aggressive and rude posting style when I am starting facts about my situation and the reason why I do not enter the events.

INteresting to see how low the to date numbers for both DH and Enduro are. There’s not much left this year to offer a big boost I would think, so expect a dip for 2018. I blame brexit, obviously.

They were about mouth ago, just after the Ard'rock I think (Sorry should of said that) enduro should hit 19000 riders this year if my calculations are right.

The root problem I think, is that people want events to be like consumer theme parks where you can just rock up and pay your money but until they’re run by a big faceless profit seeking organisation that’s not how they are, they need commitment and partnership.

Organisers need to know they’ll be able to pay for the various things, people and services they’ve got booked to turn up and make the event happen.  These aren’t faceless corporations, they’re regular people doing it for the love mostly and at risk of losing their homes etc if it all goes tits up.  On the other hand, racers are also real people with lives and other expenses, so like the flexibility of being able to decide the week before that they’ll do something.

Also, looking at the data while numbers are higher than ever, most only do one event a year with only about 6% (550-600) people in it for enough events to make a series.

I’m reminded of that Mint Sauce strip that pinched the ‘Agincourt’ “we few, we band of brothers” speech...

If you're looking to do some more analysis, I'd be intrigued to see how the numbers look when you exclude people whose only enduro race is Ard Rock, as this seems to attract a large number of riders who are there for the experience and atmosphere rather than racing.

Good luck with it, I think there's definitely space for some proper analysis and opinion pieces.

What would I like to read about ?

- What bike company's think of direct to customer brands like YT and Canyon

- What will happen to LBS, do they have a future and where is it

- Do DH / Enduro / XC riders take drugs, how do the drugs help, does it matter

- What products are crap and why

- What will happen to bike magazines, will they die or end up super niche

- How much money does a pro DH / Enduro / XC rider earn

- How much does it cost to do the DH series

- Could Rachel win on any bike

- What motivates Gee to keep going

- Why don't roadies say hi to mountain bikers

Basically the sort of stuff you cant read about in STW, Pinkbike, GMBN, Cranked etc..  There are lots of places to get info from so you need to provide something that is better and different.

If you’re looking to do some more analysis, I’d be intrigued to see how the numbers look when you exclude people whose only enduro race is Ard Rock, as this seems to attract a large number of riders who are there for the experience and atmosphere rather than racing.

Stereotype alert! Why just pick ard rock? Tweedlove has a great atmosphere too, as a lot of races do, how ye gonna measure this? With your atmosphereometer? 😁

I personally drive 4 hours each way for the riding, to be able to ride on trails I can't really do at any other time. I could easily do without the whole apres riding tbh.

Great stuff @Trimix I'll add those to our list!

– What products are crap and why

Is actually the main reason we started the blog. Lack of honest harsh reviews, so in the future we aim to build up a good back catalog of honest, impartial reviews (good and bad).

Do some proper back to back tyre reviews in real life.  Everyone always asks what tyre for ...............blah, blah, blah and all we ever get are subjective comments.

Get some and then measure how fast you can take a corner on them.  Do it scientifically and objectively.

how ye gonna measure this? With your atmosphereometer?

The races that throw the most free gifts into the crowd are the atmospherist, obviously.

Stereotype alert! Why just pick ard rock? Tweedlove has a great atmosphere too

Assumption rather that stereotype - I assume that Ard Rock accounts for a large amount of the 'one event per year' type riders.

In all seriousness, if the point of the blog is to assess the health of the UK gravity race scene following the collapse of the national series, I think it's worthwhile noting the distinction between the races and the festival style events.

That’s a good idea. Quite like the idea of splitting them up by region too to see if there is anything interesting going on there.

If you need help with that let me know.

Tbh I don't even think the health of the gravity scene can really be measured by race numbers. Most of my riding mates have been through the whole SES race calendar, but don't generally bother anymore, but all still ride those types of trails at Ae,  inners etc, as well as stuff we've built locally.

And the likes of Inners muddies the waters, you'll very rarely see many actual dh bikes on the uplift any more, but plenty single corners riding the dh tracks.

Joe Barnes was 6th in the national dh at the weekend on an enduro bike....

Aside from the Enduro discussion, I read the conclusion.. and the apostrophe error (What a twonk: [i]Apostrophe fail and I closed the page. If you can’t be arsed to do it right, I can’t be arsed to read it.[/i])

I like the site. 🙂

I take that back! Your logo - the one above "Because Mountain Biking is Shit" - you spell 'Dissapointment' [sic] wrong 😆

From some of the comments in this thread you do start to wonder if there's space for a slightly less "full on" version of Enduro.

A single day event, no practise sessions, no prescribed order for the times stages or cutoffs, just passive timing, course opens at say 08:30, closes at 15:00 results and podiums 15:30 everyone off home by 16:30... *

*To note I've not done any UKGE or other Enduro racing myself so what I described may already exist, but the impression I have is that you have basically to give up a whole weekend and it's quite a tightly controlled format...

Tbh I don’t even think the health of the gravity scene can really be measured by race numbers

That's why i specified 'gravity race scene'. The number of 160mm bikes and sold out uplifts suggests that gravity riding as a whole is healthy enough, but the challenge for event organisers is getting these riders to part with their money in advance.

From some of the comments in this thread you do start to wonder if there’s space for a slightly less “full on” version of Enduro.

A single day event, no practise sessions, no prescribed order for the times stages or cutoffs, just passive timing, course opens at say 08:30, closes at 15:00 results and podiums 15:30 everyone off home by 16:30… *

Cookeaa, you've just described the Southern Enduro QECP Mash Up

From some of the comments in this thread you do start to wonder if there’s space for a slightly less “full on” version of Enduro.

There's plenty of options for that, Southern, Welsh and Pedalhounds are all single day events with varying formats and the ones I've done are definitely far from "full on". It's the national series they're struggling to get right.

 Cookeaa, you’ve just described the Southern Enduro QECP Mash Up

Oh interesting, and actually I do remember doing a similar format "mash up" event at Afan about a decade ago, of course that was before "Enduro" was really a thing... I might have to sign up for one next year. Cheers.

I think Mark88 hits the nail on the head there.

Ard Rock  is a stand alone festival rather than part of a series. The old DH series required a commitment over weeks or months to race each event. The festival events don’t encourage this to continue. I think a lot of riders will go to a uk Bike park a couple of times a year that suits them their mates family  or work commitments  plus Ard Rock and that’s them “travelling” to ride. Rather than driving to the four corners of the earth to race on fixed weekends. Which require a more fixed commitment.

Aye, I agree on quite a lot too tbh, but I'd say dh was definitely more of a commitment, enduro is something that can be dipped in and out of, as it's so close in nature to our 'normal' riding.

SES over the last few years had became a bit of a boaby waving contest tbh,  who could put on fastest steepest descents, looks to have eased off a bit, but that will put some off as well.

Maybe another reason ard rock is as popular, if you're a fairly decent rider, it's not really difficult, just flat out fun. Lots of guys that race AR would shit a brick at the tweed valley or Dunkeld steep stuff in rainy season!

Data, smata!!!

If you're going to completely ignore Northern Ireland then i'd officially like to ask you to replace all references to UK with Great Britain. 😀

Just had a look, Roots and Rain puts NI races under Ireland.

https://www.rootsandrain.com/event-map/filters/2018,ie,en/

Ill update the data with these!