End of the road for me and gravel bikes?

I can't offer much advice on setup, but I was having similar doubts for a while as I rarely made it past 50km on the gravel bike without starting to get quite uncomfortable hands and arms.

I did all the usual stuff with position (shorter, more upright, saddle lower) and contact points (fancy Lauf Smoothie bars, gel pads etc.) but nothing really solved it until I read 'one weird trick' on the Trainerroad forum which is to imagine the handlebars as two bananas.

It's obviously just a good mental cue to relax grip and shoulders, suddenly I found I was comfortable after 135km of relatively rough gravel.

Maybe worth a try?

Can you lower your tyre pressure?

I run the 47s at about 26psi....im about 82kg and i dont feel i would want them lower.

Could you run some rockshox / fox gravel bike suspension forks?

Surely one of the gravel suspension forks would help?

I’d be demoing some short travel XC race bikes to see if they work. Might do the job.

I hadnt really thougbt about the suspension forks for it.

Is there a prefered model?

Or can i get a short travel 29 xc bike that would allow me to have sone spped and fun on mixed surfaces? Any recommendations?

That's what I would do if I were you.

100mm xc hardtails, maybe Trek ISoSpeed one for good plushnesses

I rarely made it past 50km on the gravel bike without starting to get quite uncomfortable hands and arms.

Same here on the Merlin g2p.

Then I bought the Vagabond and it's solo much better.

Yeah I wouldn't want to go lower than that tyre pressure either.

On the Reilly site there is a picture of a Gradient with a suspension fork. Its an MRP, probably a Baxter.

A good gravel suspension fork would help a lot, in combination with lowering your tyre pressure in the supplest tyre you can find, run tubeless... I run 20psi on a 48mm wide 29er tyre at 175lbs for relief for a hand injury, it works. Make sure you're happy with the service intervals on a gravel suss fork, mileage dependant... if not, a Lauf fork also does a lot to minimise vibration for zero maintenance.  A Gradient has a relatively short headtube for a given size, make sure you're not too low with weight distribution too much on the hands.. you can always fit the drop bar type with a built-in rise if you've maxed out the steerer.

A racey 29er hardtail can be surprisingly fast with negligible speed difference to a gravel bike with the right setup - the current trend seems to be gravitating towards a drop barred 29er anyway. A narrow 90's width flat bar may be slightly slower on the road but much better for the off, but mostly personal preference...

I've mentioned it before but most gravel bikers I see are riding with locked-out elbows. It's little wonder so many are looking for solutions like suspension forks, flexy stems and so on. Might not apply to you Ian but it's worth thining about trying to build up some core strength so you can ride with elbows flexed and loose, allowing them to soak up some of the vibration and bumps.

I struggled with vibrations from road bikes for quite a while after a serious wrist injury, I found the high frequency vibrations of a road/gravel bike much worse than an mtb.
What I've done is to go max comfort, bigger tyres, riser gravel bars, thick bar tape with extra cushioning underneath and a canyon VCLS seatpost.

I'd try to be sure its buzz, and not the position, but a carbon xc bike with Thunderburts will go pretty quick

I swapped my gravel bike for a surly krampus.

Mainly because the gravel bike was horrible to ride offload. Road bikes with knobblies are OK around a muddy field for a hour.  IMHO.

Might not apply to you Ian but it’s worth thining about trying to build up some core strength so you can ride with elbows flexed and loose

Don't know which Ian you were talking to but I was consciously working on core but at the same time quite able to do the whole superman/playing the piano on the bars type thing whilst riding along, I would just slip into bad habits and 'dump' all my weight on the bars, I think that's where the banana handlebars trick worked so well.

Lauf forks are pretty good at reducing the buzz. No damping, but it's the high frequency buzz that it deals with.

Ironically, I've only ever had cyclists palsy with a flat bar bike, I don't get it (or maybe it takes longer to come on ) with a drop bar.

My gravel bike has a redshift stem & bars and a vcls post, so it's pretty well damped and maybe 50mm tyres help.

I think the main things are to be relaxed, and have a bike that fits.

The thing is, any sort of hardtail bike still has a direct connection between the rear tyre and the handlebar. No fork will help with that. I'd suggest a fast and light, full suspension xc bike. My Epic 8 is no slower than my fast gravel bike on anything other than smooth tarmac or howling headwinds. It's almost as smooth as my 150mm full suspension on the rough stuff. Got to be better for your body?

Is the bike the right size for you? Maybe a bit too big, as this means you're stretching with more straight arms, resulting in all the trail buzz being transmitted up your arms.

For big gravel rides, I often prefer to take my xc full sus, it's so more comfortable and I can really let it fly on the descents. Descents that would have me having to brake on the gravel bike. So maybe a lightweight xc bike might be better suited for you.

This is me from last week riding the Tour Of Ben Nevis loop, all gravel but I wouldn't want to do it on a gravel bike. 

What size is the Gradient?

#askingforafriend

I’d be looking at a Lefty Oliver and maybe a softtail like a Moots or something with designed flex like a Topstone carbon.

https://www.merlincycles.com/cannondale-lefty-oliver-gravel-fork-700c-302834.html?utm_source=PHG&utm_medium=AffiliateMarketing&utm_campaign=phg-GB&ucpo=205637&app_clickref=1011lzJ93sis&source=PHG&utm_medium=Affiliates&utm_campaign=shopforwardcss

I’m 100kg

Around 22 psi in 47mm tyres

Maybe try 2 psi lower at a time

When I got a head injury last year, I experienced the same feeling as you. Rattling over stuff  at high frequencymade my head hurt and I just couldn't hack it. I could almost feel my brain bouncing off the inside of my skull. @Kramer mentioned on a thread here that by riding off road I was doing more harm than good.

If you don't think you're going to see improvements after your brain surgery I think the only answer is an XC bike. The nominal amount of suspension a gravel suspension fork will give you, combined with the relatively thin tyres, isn't going to help enough based on my experience. Plush fork with 100mm travel and big but fast XC tyres will be the only thing to really help, and even then if you can do 120 or 130mm and use a suspension seatpost I would.

didnthurt

Lovely photos

That looks great for a gravel bike - were there other bits that were less gravelly more MTBy?

@easily

Popular route, good vídeo here of a couple doing it over two days on fat bikes. The route passes two bothies so I'd plan to stay in one of those if I was doing over two days rather than camp. There is a river crossing that would be difficult or impossible after heavy rain but was fine last week.

Route here:

https://gpsrouteshub.com/mountain-biking/ben-nevis-mtb-loop/

@scottoutes

Bent elbows is a huge thing

Bent elbows and a relaxed grip. The larger hoods on my GRX shifters help with the grip, as does thick bar tape. Maybe get some flared bars with minimal drop and get used to riding in the drops, definitely helps with control and braking, maybe help relieve pressure on your hands. Might need to raise the bars too.

Trek Supercalibre or Procalibre depending on budget.
I only ride gravel on a ti framed drop bar bike with 42mm tyres. Miss my XC hardtail. Not quite as quick on easy routes, but overall much more comfy.

Swap out the fork for some kind of Surly that will allow a 29+ front tyre.

dont cut the steerer and try one of those adjustable angle stems with a beach cruiser/ north road style handlebar.

Try raising the bars. Had the bars too low on mine, which lead to my head being tipped too far back, particularly in the drops. Result was neck pain, headaches, even some vertigo. Higher bars will also shift more load from the upper body rearward onto the legs.

I do find gravel bikes give my shoulders and neck more of a workout than even a rigid mountain bike.

Thicker/softer bar tape. Dunno if it's the thickest but I saw 4.6mm Lizard Skins in a shop recently.

I've got Spank Vibrocore rims. They won't solve your problem, but do make a slight difference that when combined with low pressures, comfy bar tape and a flex stem it all adds up.

I still mtb and have a Cotic Jeht and a Spec Enduro. I find that these remove all the trail buzz and allow me to ride and even jump without any effect on me.

I'd maybe just ride those for a bit, maybe stick some fast tyres on the Jeht to make it more tolerable on the road, and see if things calm down over time.  I think the whole staccato thing goes with the gravel experience tbh, even big gravel tyres can only manage so much, though a mate who runs a Rockshox Rudy on a Stigmata says it makes an appreciable difference.

I made the basic error of riding my Camino with 45mm tyres across the Pennine Way track from Snake Summit to Mill Hill the other day, it's paved with old mill slabs and it was an absolutely horrendous experience, constant jolting from the slab joins mixed with micro-crap from the texture of the slabs, worst route-selection error I've made in ages. Gel pads under Supacaz bar-tape fwiw, non-extreme riding position etc, it is just how it is. The downhill afterwards, also on slabs, was even worse.

The same track is fine on a mountain bike. I think essentially it comes down mostly to tyre volume. You can ride as loose as you want, in or out of the saddle, fast or slow, and it's still horrible, just at a different frequency. I'm sure you can mitigate it somewhat with component choices etc, but them's the basics.

Also, I guess you're descending on the drops, so the angle of your head / neck will have changed compared to riding on the tops/hoods, I guess it might be worth experimenting  with set-up to see if you can mitigate that. Something like a Specialized Hover bar with flare which raises the whole bar might possibly help? Looks 'interesting' but if it works, it works.

Call me old fashioned but why try and fit the marketing mold? I’ve been riding bikes 40 odd years. Road bikes off road, MTB’s on road.

For me a gravel bike (as described and sold in the marketing BS) is not something I will ever need.

All bikes have slight compromise when it comes to use, rather than spending £££ polishing a turd ie a road bike, CX bike, gravel bike, hardtail mtb, full sus mtb , I accept that at the boundaries you get some (a little) compromise.

Personally I’d be getting a hardtail mtb

I’ve decided rigid off road isn’t for me…
Gravel bike or MTB. Strangely it’s not the downs that get me… I can “ride” over or around the stuff that hurts… I struggle on the flat… you can’t be in “attack mode” for a long duration and the repeated hits whilst pedalling just get too tiring

Why would some one who rides their road bike off road not want at think it reasonable that some of us have the option of fitting bigger tyres to their drop bar bikes?

To me the marketing BS was selling road bikes where it was debatable as to whether you could fit 28mm tyres

It’s not just you, gravel bikes are frankly terrifying on downhill sections where quick changes of line, bunny hops and a bit of air are required. I use one in Greece and it’s great in the road and then riding down a dusty sandy gravelly bit to the beach, but going up the mountain, across the mountain and down the mountain I wish I was on a hardtail.
Race kings on a 29er would be very quick on road as well.

Yes, race kings on a 29er is quick and only a bit slower than a gravel bike. Really though, excluding marketing, a gravel bike is really just the fastest type of bike on mild off road terrain. That's it. If you are not racing or really need those seconds saved, then might as well sell the gravel bike and put it towards a full suss xc bike. Supercalibre, blur, epic, oiz, that sort of thing. Good luck and hope it all feels better once the bike is resolved.

I hadnt really thougbt about the suspension forks for it.

Is there a prefered model?

It's a mistake to think of them as a suspension fork, think of them as doing a similar job to your redshift stem as they are generally 30-40mm of not very well damped travel

If you must have drop bars how about something like the Cotic Cascade with a proper 100-120mm MTB fork, it's designed for it and get one you can lock out for road sections

Thanks didnthurt, that looks like a wonderful ride. I'm moving to Scotland soon (east coast, not Fort william), so I'll be looking for stuff like that. I'd guess the hardest part is working out which week has neither midges nor rain 🙂

... and yeah, looking at that video I don't think I'd fancy a lot of it on a gravel bike.

I bought a gravel bike. I just couldnt gel with it regards the 'strapped to a jackhammer' feeling.

Gave up and use the gravel bike for roads (given the state of them) and use an XC hardtail on gravel.

Much more comfy and much more confidence descending fast gravel.

The added plus is you can then go a bit off piste if you want to.

I liked my gravel bike but just couldn’t get on with drops. Tried different widths, reach, style but nothing stopped me getting sore after 30km or so. I put it down to me not riding in the correct position for drops after a lifetime on straight bars. Tried to adapt but couldn’t get comfortable and realised I would never be committed enough to train my body to ‘fit’.

Sold it and bought a Cube C:62 Reaction and found the only place it was a bit slower was on road. It converted me to XC bikes and I’ll be getting an Epic or something similar soon. Just be careful with some though as the low front ends could cause issues.

If I cycle at home and know the trails I use a gravel bike.
If we go to Scotland for a holiday I take my ancient xc hardtail as it covers most of what I want to ride.
Most of it is gravelish but when it's rough I get on better with an old mtb.

I've just bought another gravel bike after getting rid off my last one because I've decided that gravel bikes are just a bit shit.

Went for a Topstone this time with the flexi rear end for a bit of comfort etc. put some nicer wheels and wider tyres on it as well. Turns out gravel bikes are still a bit shit and most rides would be more fun and just as fast, if not faster, on my Epic Evo. I should have just saved the cash and spent it on a couple of decent sets of wheels for the Epic instead.

Unlike the US and Canada, we don't have a whole lot of gravel roads to ride on. So gravel bikes were always something of a solution looking for a problem in the UK. However, they do make excellent tourers and winter road bikes, and they are well suited to the somewhat unpredictable surfaces of the average NCN route.

“Unlike the US and Canada, we don’t have a whole lot of gravel roads to ride on”

You know how mountain bikes aren’t just for mountains? And road bikes aren’t just for roads? And touring bikes aren’t just for touring?

Well guess what …

What about the lower back!! The lumbar spine really isn't meant to flex for expended periods.

A disc herniation and 18. months off the bike with residual nerve damage really brings on bike posture into sharp focus.

Drop bars & me - never again.

You know how mountain bikes aren’t just for mountains? And road bikes aren’t just for roads? And touring bikes aren’t just for touring?

I guessed

they do make excellent tourers and winter road bikes, and they are well suited to the somewhat unpredictable surfaces of the average NCN route

Thanks all...lots to think about here.

I think im probably more confused than when i asked the question. I may see if i can borrow/demo a superfast HT or fs.

Unlike the US and Canada, we don’t have a whole lot of gravel roads to ride on.

Complete bollocks.

35 percent of the roads in the USA are unpaved, over 1.3 million miles of gravel roads.

You just need to ride the bike you are comfortable on and enjoy riding the most. If you are not in a race then being a couple of minutes slower over an hour because your position on an MTB is not as aero as a gravel bike doesn't really matter.

I prefer riding MTBs on gravel so that is what I ride but if I was riding 200 miles then I would use a gravel bike as hand position is more comfortable. As I never ride more than 25 miles then not really something for me to consider.
And put the same tyres on an MTB and a gravel bike and other than hand/arm position there won't be much in it when riding on gravel. Put a 2.2 on a gravel bike and it starts to feel MTBish, put a 38c on an MTB and it starts to feel gravel bikish.

There’s quite a few people on this thread claiming that an XC hardtail is almost as fast a a gravel or road bike on the road, but unless you’re all slow riders, that’s rubbish.  Most (all?) modern XC hardtails are almost all limited to 32-34t front chainrings, this means that the spinout speed is going to be around 22kph with a 10t cog.  That’s pretty slow for road and gravel.

Off road, sure, on anything remotely technical or even loose at speed, a hardtail will be faster, but on much of the stuff in between, it will be slower and IME far less comfortable.

@Daffy I’d second that. As for what constitutes ‘gravel’, can we just stick with the more traditional and accurate term of ‘rough stuff’? Anything that isn’t paved road or mountain.
OP sorry to hear of your issues. Hand and subsequently or correspondingly head and thoracic/cervical spine position has led me to try many different bar types, heights, widths and tyres. What worked for me in reducing the upper back pain was a more upright posture. I ended up with Whisky Winston moustache bars on one bike which worked great, Ritchey Corralito on my Audax / rough stuff bike which again allow both a more raised posture and a wider hand position that’s more towards my body.

It was definitely riding in the drops and looking up that would exacerbate the pain.

Medical history for comparison with yours: L1&3 fractured. Minor brain injury, left shoulder SLAP lesion repair 75% of the way around, no collarbone end: synthetic ligament holding in place, left wrist broken in 14 places and pinned.

Good luck getting sorted with the bike, and just a wonder; could you reverse mullet it with a 29er front to bring it up slightly?

There’s quite a few people on this thread claiming that an XC hardtail is almost as fast a a gravel or road bike on the road, but unless you’re all slow riders, that’s rubbish.  Most (all?) modern XC hardtails are almost all limited to 32-34t front chainrings, this means that the spinout speed is going to be around 22kph with a 10t cog.  That’s pretty slow for road and gravel.

22kph is an incredibly slow speed to spin out at unless you spin out at a cadence around 50rpm.

With a 32t or 34t chainring and the 10t at the back you’re looking at around 40kph at 90rpm which is probably a lot faster than many will cruise at on either gravel or road bikes.

My Scalpel HT has a top gear of 34x10 which is good for mid-20s mph at a 90 rpm cadence - quite a lot faster than 22kph. The biggest handicap is the 760mm bars, but if you grip them closer to the stem it makes a huge difference. The gravel bike is faster on the road, but not by a huge amount, a lot of which is probably down to the tyres. The MTB is much more confidence inspiring on anything even vaguely loose or technical. Which is why the gravel bike is now mostly used for touring and as a winter road bike, or just occasionally off-road when I feel like scaring myself for fun. I still love the bike, it's just that living where I do there aren't many gravel tracks to ride.

There’s quite a few people on this thread claiming that an XC hardtail is almost as fast a a gravel or road bike on the road, but unless you’re all slow riders, that’s rubbish. Most (all?) modern XC hardtails are almost all limited to 32-34t front chainrings, this means that the spinout speed is going to be around 22kph with a 10t cog. That’s pretty slow for road and gravel.

There’s a maths problem there. It also contradicts my experience. I can pedal my MTB to over 40kph without spinning out, that’s with a 30 tooth chain ring a 10 at the back.

For my local rides a short travel MTB or gravel bike with big tyres are fine for most rides. I’ve cheerfully done group rides with me on my gravel bike and others on their MTB. Its a leisure activity do it however you want. Some days i like from drop bars and weaving round the roots, other days i plough over them on my FS MTB. Its fun both ways

The term gravel is a one marketing one. But we started cycling before the roads were paved and rough stuff has been around for years. So gravel bikes predate road and MTB

We could say that the first Tour de France winning bicycle in 1903 was half-fixie half-gravel. A steel bicycle, with fixed gear, wooden rims, 32-38 mm wide tires, leather saddle and a handlebar that resembles some current gravel models.

https://www.siroko.com/blog/c/tour-de-france-bikes-history-part-one/

Op have you tried a bike fit and/or physio?

I've a gravel bike and a light XC bike, both great a what they do, which is not quite the same thing, although plenty of overlap..

horses for courses..

There’s quite a few people on this thread claiming that an XC hardtail is almost as fast a a gravel or road bike on the road, but unless you’re all slow riders, that’s rubbish. Most (all?) modern XC hardtails are almost all limited to 32-34t front chainrings, this means that the spinout speed is going to be around 22kph with a 10t cog. That’s pretty slow for road and gravel.

22kph is an incredibly slow speed to spin out at unless you spin out at a cadence around 50rpm.

With a 32t or 34t chainring and the 10t at the back you’re looking at around 40kph at 90rpm which is probably a lot faster than many will cruise at on either gravel or road bikes.

It does depend where you live too but riding a bike with MTB tyres on tarmac for any distance just sucks the fun out of it for me. Locally a 40 mile ride will probably see 15 of those off road so making the tarmac sections in between less tedious is key. A gravel bike is perfect for that. I don't care about average speeds or spinning out, why does everyone reference that? Are you all racing every ride at full gas?

Gravel bikes are for exploring places and enjoying the view, getting an adrenaline rush attempting trails on the edge of being rideable on 45mm tyres and compared to an MTB they are perfect for that if you aren't lucky enough to be able ride off road from your door

There’s quite a few people on this thread claiming that an XC hardtail is almost as fast a a gravel or road bike on the road, but unless you’re all slow riders, that’s rubbish

I beg to differ on this one... but it comes with  caveat of, it depends. An xc hardtail as it comes stock for off-road won't be that fast, but stick something like a Thunderburt 2.1 out back minimal RaRa out front (common XCO type spec), use a sensible 90's style bar width and maybe centre bar ends if you want. Most average specs will be too heavy, but a superlight chi-chi build can easily be 19lbs these days even with a 100mm suss fork, or lighter with carbon rigid, as light or lighter than a lot of gravel bikes. Am not a slow rider by any means and when I first started riding a bike like this (am older and slower now) keeping pace or overtaking full-on TeamSky kit style road bikerists while on the way to flip the script on some singletrack was just part of the training regime, same goes for e-bikerists. A gravel bike might be a tad faster still, but on the boring bits it doesn't need to be faster - and as soon as you hit the fun stuff a hardtail is way more fun... most of the offroad up my end would be naff on a gravel bike. Think more like the sort of dropbar 29er builds they're using at rougher US gravel races now, something more like a classic Norba xc racer geometry, not LLS - and we can see that there's not much speed lost to big tyres and minimal suspension... just choose the bar style most comfortable with, but yeah drops will be a few percentage points faster if you need that on the boring bits. Spinning out a 34-10 is a non-issue when riding for fun, racing on smooth gravel may require more... but smooth US gravel looks a lot smoother than most of the 'roads' around here...

getting an adrenaline rush attempting trails on the edge of being rideable on 45mm tyres

Nasally aerated tea everywhere... 🙂

So gravel bikes were always something of a solution looking for a problem in the UK. However, they do make excellent tourers and winter road bikes, and they are well suited to the somewhat unpredictable surfaces of the average NCN route

Exactly.
Mine is a 'do it all' bike.

Would be interested in the OP’s experience after trying some XC MTBs. I don’t have a dog in this race, and I have no gravel experience, but I have to confess that I read the OP and my immediate thought was that a gravel bike (no matter how tweaked) did not sound like the OP’s ideal solution.

There’s a maths problem there. It also contradicts my experience. I can pedal my MTB to over 40kph without spinning out, that’s with a 30 tooth chain ring a 10 at the back.

There isn’t.   30:10 will have you at over 110rpm at 39kph.  How long can you sustain that for and just how bouncy will that be?

At 34:10, you’ll still be over 90rpm (at 40kph) and on a MTB 90rpm for a significant period is NOT comfortable at all as in most circumstances, you have a slightly less efficient pedalling position that that of a road/gravel bike.

60-70rpm is about the best comfortable rpm for a sustained off-road effort. Heck, even on road, most people will be at a 70-75rpm average.  Fit cyclists will be above 80 average and pros can sustain 100+, but not most of us.   Okay, you may not spin out at 10:34 on the flat, but your legs will be a blur and your contribution to power will be minimal at the top end.  Any for of downhill gradient will have you spun out.  Contrast that to any gravel bike with typical gearing 40/42:10 and at 65-70rpm you’ll be at 35kph as opposed to ~25kph on 32:10.

The number of folk I ever see spinning at 90 rpm is a close approximation to zero.

@Daffy

The maths problem i  referred to was the claim that the spin out would occur at 22km/h. I haven’t seen anything that supports that yet. Surely know one is calling 60 rpm a spin out

I thought i better check my claim so i kept an eye on my speed today. I definitely hit 44km/h pedalling down a road hill on my MTB.

I put 100 rpm into sheldon brown. This is what i got. Obviously this is for a 29 er. So I’d say 110rpm is about correct for me today. That’s higher than my normal cadence but not by a huge amount. I think my normal cadence is 80 to 85 rpm.

The number of folk I ever see spinning at 90 rpm is a close approximation to zero

My last road ride was at an average of 86 .

Most (all?) modern XC hardtails are almost all limited to 32-34t front chainrings, this means that the spinout speed is going to be around 22kph with a 10t cog.

That's just not the case. I have a 30t chainring on my XC FS (It would be 32 or 34, but it's been a bad year!), and I'm still pedalling at 20mph+ on road. And not all that fast in cadence terms either.

I'm sure gravel bikes are faster, and more comfortable on road, but a short travel bike, locked out, with sensible tyre choices isn't the worst way to move on tarmac.

Average cadence 89rpm from 1.5 hours on the Kickr this afternoon.

On the gravel bike with road wheels (and full mudguards) 😀

rockshox and rimpact foam inserts

I was one of those suggesting my gb was only a bit faster on road. It had similar 1x gearing to my xc ht, similar tread tyres and was steel compared to carbon for the xc. Can’t see why you’re surprised Daffy tbh?

Not sure I’ve seen anyone claim a xc ht is nearly as quick as a proper road bike either?

Thanks all. I didnt mean to stir up such a vigourous debate.

I also own a Cube reaction carbon HT. Its a 29er. It set up rigid with some Travers prong forks. Ive found a set of S/H rockshox sid forks im going to try in it and see if im comfier and happy with the speed compromise. I shall find some speedy tyres....Thunderburt at the rear? Maxxis Icon at the front?

Think my Cube Reaction had a Maxxis ardent up front, Schwalbe Racing Ralph out back? Seemed a decent combo for gb type stuff.

Thanks! I will check them out. The forks need a lowers service so i can find tyres whilst i sort that out. Then i will compare how it all feels.

A Racing Ray up front and a Racing Ralph on the rear works well on my XC hardtail.