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I'll reduce a ridiculously long debacle to something you won't need to binge read over a weekend.
Been off wheels for a couple of year and last October I decided I'd use a C2W voucher and whilst on my rounds I came across a lovely 2018 Orange P7.
The shop is 40 miles away from where I live but thought "what can go wrong' and bought the bike.
As part of the deal they offered to convert the rims to tubeless and were adamant that the usual Stans set up isn't cool anymore and gorilla tape/muc off sealant is the way forward.
Picked bike up and was probably a few weeks before I could use it due to work/life commitments.
Before riding it I noticed the tyres were flat and were on wrong way (rotational arrow facing back) so swapped them myself and used more sealant and C02 cartridges doing so.
Did one ride, washed bike and put away. Fee weeks later did the same and again tyres were flat. Dunked tyres in tank and no obvious holes in tyre but leaking from front rim, so took wheel back to them and complained and they fixed it and charged me for more tape!
Week later both tyres flat again so took them off myself and front rim is covered in gorilla tape and rear rim has original protector for tubes.
Emailed orange support and asked how they would have left them and confirmed they would have had yellow rim protectors for the tubes and use Stans etc to convert.
Took the gorilla tape off and it left residue, so after a hour of trying to scrape if off I decided to drive the 2 hour round trip and tell them to sort it themselves.
Week later picked the wheel up and it's clear of gorilla glue but no slippier than an ice rink and despite me wiping it daily for the last two weeks with degreaser and thinners it's still way too sticky to stick rim tape to.
I'm also not convinced the disc hasn't been contaminated too.
I feel like taking the whole bike back and wazzing it through their shop window but not sure that will get me anywhere.
Am I being reasonable in asking for a new wheel??
The bikes been ridden twice and want the confidence that the front tyre isn't going to give in on me suddenly and wipe me out.
Apparently Orange fit their tubeless tyres the wrong way round....
just add more sealant and go and ride .
Yes, you are being unreasonable wanting a new wheel.
Basically they failed to get the tubless to work and clearly a numpty fitted the tyres the wrong way round. I'd take it back to them and ask them to get it to work properly. Tubeless set ups do seem hard to get right sometimes and humans can make mistakes. So see if they can sort it.
Afterall it probably seemed to work when they first did it and they didnt break the wheel.
Ask politely first, they may say sorry and feel like idiots and be more than happy to sort it all for you.
it’s still way too sticky to stick rim tape to.
How can something be too sticky to stick something to?
I'm still trying to get my head round the relevance of the rim being no slippier than an ice rink....
Hi op.
I'd use brake cleaner on the inside of the rim,wiped around with kitchen roll/clean cloth etc. That shouldn't leave anything on there that shouldn't be on there.
I don't use goriila tape as it is bloody messy. I use the Tesa (sp?) Yellow tape from eBay. Enough to last a lifetime in one roll. Good YouTube vids about how to apply it.
I don't use Stans as I had a few issues but most people swear by it. I use Cafe Latex instead.
Personally, id sort the wheels myself mate. Nothing intrinsically wrong with them I would say.
Good luck on getting it sorted.👍
Acetone is your friend, loads on ebay.
Disc brake cleaner works on gorilla tape residue too.
Shouldn't be an issue with it, I ran gorilla tape and Muc-Off sealant for ages with no problems at all. Muc-Off have a new tubeless tape out now as well which is supposed to be really good, just swap the gorilla tape for that.
Stop farting about with the bike shop and learn how to do it your self OP. It'll stand you in good stead for the future.
Or just whack a tube in and go for a ride...
I always use proper tubeless rim tape to seal the rim bed. Personally the only reason to use Gorilla tape would be to build up the rim diameter a touch (after the Tubeless tape) if the tyre was struggling to seat due to a rim\tyre tolerance issue (I like to be able to inflate with a track pump).
Your issue is likely the seal on the rim tape, valve, or tyre. The wheel itself isn't holding the air in if the tape is edge to edge on the rim bed. Unless you mean swapping the whole lot.
A lot of people have gone away from Stans sealant for good reason. It uses Ammonia to stop the latex from going off inside the tyre, over time the ammonia gas will seep out the tyre pores and you will eventually be left with solid latex and grey water.
Sealant wise I've had much better success with Orange seal, longevity and sealing punctures.
Why not just ride with tubes then and deal with punctures if and when they happen ?
better than not riding a new bike at all cos no-one can get a tubeless set-up to work
Tubeless can be a bit leaky too, I think conty tyres were particularly porous, especially if not ridden a lot at the start, they'd drink sealant til all the little holes got properly gunked up.
As above sort it yourself and never use the shop again. Not sure if it’ll work with gorilla tape residue, but baby oil is very good at removing gunk left over from extra sticky labels.
Sounds like you don't know what you're doing to be honest (...and neither do they). Your tires weren't set up properly, and I've no idea why a proper shop would go down the road of fitting gorilla tape to someone's rims....but with the margins bike shops make... you can't really honestly expect a new wheel especially on a C2W voucher.
I'd just fit a new tubeless tape and get on with life. Sorry to be a ball breaker.
Methylated spirits.
Some sealants don't react well with CO2 so that may have exacerbated the initial problem.Put tubes in or fix it yourself,its really not that difficult.Good luck.
Methylated spirits
With plenty of ice and some ginger beer.
Not sure that a simple to fix problem is worth another 80 mile round trip?
Removing gunk from Gorilla tape should be easy with meth spirits and a cloth. I always use Gorilla tape and generally get the tires to pop with a track pump, even without sealant. Being able to set tubeless up is a good skill and easy to learn. It will save you a lot in the long-term and avoids dealing unnecessarily with bike shops.
Do it yourself or take it to a local shop / mechanic to sort if you don’t feel confident doing it. These things happen.
Picked bike up and was probably a few weeks before I could use it due to work/life commitments.
Before riding it I noticed the tyres were flat
brand newly set up tubeless wheels ime need a good ride to adequately distribute the sealant, leaving then "a few weeks" before riding will almost certainly leave them flat
then you swapped the tyres and then left them again for a few more weeks. same thing will happen again.
WTB Rims? It helps to have the tape extend up the side of the rims too.
I’d just try some white spirit dabbed onto kitchen towel and gradually work your way round the rim of the wheel. Would think that’d get it off. Then clean the wheel down with water and a cloth and let it dry.
I’d wrap it in wtb / Tesa / stan’s tape as it’s not that expensive and never had a problem with it. Get a size that’s 2mm wider than your inner rim width. Really hang off it as you tape it - stretching it and pulling it down into the grooves etc in the rim. I normally overlap it 3-4 inches both sides of the valve.
Don't use co2, it doesn't last as long as a pump with air...and it seems to last even less time in tubeless.
If you're going to ride with tubeless, I would say you're better off learning how to fix it yourself. If you can negotiate a small refund from the bike shop, in exchange for taking on the problem, so much the better, but you'll save the time and fuel for going over there, at least.
I would ask the shop if they are willing to fix it properly with tubeless tape.
If not then DIY or take it to somebody who can do it properly.
I fix that sort of thing regularly, most of the labour would be cleaning the residue off the rim.
Rim 100% clean, then use some spare tubeless tape for a final wipe round. Tubeless tape wall to wall, nicely stretched on (truing stand is good for tape application), decent overlap and you should not have any issues.
Sounds like you don’t know what you’re doing to be honest (…and neither do they). Your tires weren’t set up properly, and I’ve no idea why a proper shop would go down the road of fitting gorilla tape to someone’s rims….but with the margins bike shops make… you can’t really honestly expect a new wheel especially on a C2W voucher.
I’d just fit a new tubeless tape and get on with life. Sorry to be a ball breaker.
I've fitted tubeless myself on at least 8 bikes in the last 10 years with 100% success.
the problem I have is I now have a wheel which this lot have totally saturated in baby oil or some other slppy substance that after daily wipes with thinners and de-greaser is still sliipy as hell.
so'just fitting tubeless' isn't that simple if the surface of the rim is still slippy as no rim tape is sticking to it. Agreed their margins aren't great but they got £100 of other stuff when I was there and they've been paid for previous tape an sealant.
I'm four hours of driving and 160 miles out of pocket as well as more sealant and £10 of Co2 cartirdges out of pocket.
I've got ZERO confidence they are actually going to resolve the issue.
Don’t use co2, it doesn’t last as long as a pump with air…and it seems to last even less time in tubeless.
I use Co2 to mount the tyre quickly, track pump won't mount the bead quickly.
Have you road brake cleaner on the rims mate? Not much that won't shift.
Have you road brake cleaner on the rims mate? Not much that won’t shift.
No, but used commercial grade paint thinners
Genuinely don't know how effective thinners are as not used them.
Id be inclined to pick up some brake cleaner as it's readily available and pretty cheap. Handy for bikes in general and I have found it really good on new and second hands wheel sets I've used with all sorts of muck/tape in the rims.
All the slippery shiz is most likely hiding behind the spoke holes inside the rim profile and coming out a bit as you rotate.
Maybe give the rims a real good warm, soapy bath and thorough rinse getting it all into everywhere, then dry, then degrease, then tesa?
If you are using paint thinners that could well be the culprit for the slippery rim (ooo-er). Some thinners leave an oily residue.
A proper clean with warm soapy water and then something like a disc brake cleaner should get it properly clean.
I’m with Rocketdog here most tubeless set ups (other than Mavic ust) need to be ridden a few times before they keep the pressure holds.
The title of your post is misleading . It should read "at the end of my tether with non LBS" . If it were local to you it would be easier to resolve .
Stop using thinners, they're oil based and that's the residue.
You need a [b]degreaser[/b]. Disc brake cleaner is excellent as is Hope Shit Shifter. The amount of thinners in there, it's probably in all the rim holes, you may even need to soak the rim. Run it through a bucket of water with a hefty dose of Shit Shifter in there and scrub the whole lot.
You're going to have to start from scratch. Complete total clean and degrease of the entire rim. Wash and dry. And then start from the beginning with new tubeless tape.
And don't use ****ing paint thinner!! You're not trying to thin paint, you're trying to remove glue.
In my limited experience Ghetto tubeless conversions are a load of initial faff followed by a period of satisfaction when you finally beat the system by achieving an air tight seal that you know will slowly deflate over time. The deflation time increases dramatically if the bike is not ridden.
My latest conversion revealed 7 punctures in a tyre that were not an issue with a tube fitted and how porous the side walls of a (non tubeless) Conti GP5000 are. I am now at week 3 of regular wheel rotation and re inflation on my rear wheel. The front is finally air tight after 3 months of riding, rotation and re inflation.
It's a case of keep blowing up whilst sucking it up unless you have tubeless rims and tyres.
Soapy water, then IPA (I get it in bulk from the GF's business, but you should be able to get it from Maplins etc).
Then get yourself something to give a blast of air to inflate the tubeless setup and get it seated. Don't obsess over what to put in, but do use bike specific stuff (I tried some stuff for off road vehicles and it was way too gloopy, would have had to put about a litre in each tyre).
As others have said, seals on valves can be tricky, and you can lose air over a period of weeks, especially if the sealant isn't being splashed about. There's no real logic to this, some of my wheels stay inflated fully even if I don't touch the bike for months, others need topping up every ride. I check pressures every ride anyway, so it's no problem. - i.e. apart from putting the tyres on back to front, the bike shop may have made no error here but have done what they can to sort you out.
So on that basis, make sure valves aren't leaky, then go ride more often, this should solve many problems.
I’ve got ZERO confidence they are actually going to resolve the issue.
Then stop wasting your time trying to get them to sort it. Stick some tubes in a go and ride your bike. Then, later on, pop into an actual LBS and pay them to sort it out if you really want to ride tubeless.
Stop wasting your time. You’ll only wind yourself up to no good purpose. In spite of my best efforts I’ve never found an LBS I would trust with my bikes, so I do everything myself now. And gorilla tape is good stuff, but useless for tubeless setups. Buy the correct stuff, do it right and do it once!
I've no idea what a "commercial grade paint thinner" is, but why would you use that to remove glue? you need a degreaser.
and as others have said, just bung a couple of tubes in and go enjoy your bike...chances are you wouldn't be able to tell if it was running tubeless or not
When tubeless goes bad it can be a nightmare to put right, I had a summer faffing around with a set of Stan's Arch rims and electrical tape which would deflate and unstick themselves every single ride.
I ended up removing the tape and cleaning the rims thoroughly using surgical spirit and soapy water until I was confident that all the adhesive and sealant had been removed. Paint thinner is likely to be oil based and therefore it's going to make the problem worse.
I bought a roll of orange Tesa tape from Amazon, so far so good - my Arch rims haven't lost any pressure over the last couple of weeks.
The OP's LBS are clearly being numpties, but for the sake of all the hassle it's worth trying to fix yourself if you can.
Soapy water, then IPA (I get it in bulk from the GF’s business, but you should be able to get it from Maplins etc).
^^^This - although not Maplins as they don't exist....
You can get IPA from Amazon etc.
The amount of time spent coming and going to the shop, you could have done it properly yourself.
^^^This – although not Maplins as they don’t exist….
You can get IPA from Amazon etc.
Every day is indeed a school day. Not sure how I failed to notice that.
Try Rumbelows, I’m sure they stock it, behind the video recorders.
Radio Shack?
Seriously, either do it yourself, or just put tubes in (it doesn't make that much difference) and ride your bike.
It's not unusual for tubeless tyres to do down if they are not ridden much.
A 2018 orange should definitely have "tubeless ready" tyres and rims - no need for a 2010 ghetto solution.
I'm a bit disappointed that orange doesn't supply the rims taped and ready to go, with some valves in a box. (I know they cant ship them tubeless, as they'll go flat sitting for months).
If you have got the rims clean by whatever method - and slick like an ice rink - you'll want to sandpaper them down to a rough finish, so the tape grips.
For what its worth, I love gorilla tape on my hope tech enduro 23mms - they have a really angular internal profile, found the regular tape would lift off when removing tyres.
Of had any issues with Gorilla tape either...
Think it’s a mite unreasonable asking for a new wheel. Maximum you should really expect is a refund of the price you paid to get the shop to make them tubeless.
Maplin might not be on the high street anymore but they are definitely trading online:
Ok with tubeless if your not prepared to do it yourself then you should stick with tubes imo. And always carry a spare.
Isn't WD40/GT85 on a washing up sponge the best for removing sticky stuff, followed up with hot soapy water then a good blast of disc brake cleaner.
Ok with tubeless if your not prepared to do it yourself then you should stick with tubes imo. And always carry a spare.
we all started somewhere - on my first tubeless bike (I bought second hand) I paid for the sealant to be changed, was too scared to take the tyre off the rim. Irrational fears of looking like a plasterers radio with a tyre I couldn't re-seat without a compressor.
I remember my first time bleeding brakes, took me 2 hours.
5 Years later I can do everything* bar major suspension servicing and building a wheel from scratch. Will be doing frame bearings myself next time around.
If I never tried, I'd never learn, and would probably still be suffering with tubes to this day.
*everything is predicated on having selected bike components partly for ease of servicing. Lots of Hope, screw in BB and externally routed cables in my life.
OP. Where are you based...? I would be happy if near Brum to give you a hand and at the same time, show you how to do it.
OP. Where are you based…? I would be happy if near Brum to give you a hand and at the same time, show you how to do it.
If you read the OP's comment from the previous page:
[i] I’ve fitted tubeless myself on at least 8 bikes in the last 10 years with 100% success. [/i]
johnnystorm
Maplin might not be on the high street anymore but they are definitely trading online:
https://www.maplin.co.uk/
/blockquote>Well smack my ass and call me Charlie.....
Everyday is indeed a school day.
End of my tether with LBS – any ideas?
Afraid not ?
A bit late now I guess, but a heatgun is good for removing Gorilla tape without leaving a residue.
Some rims are just terrible for sticking Stans tape on. Rather than resorting to Gorilla tape, I tend to tightly wrap one layer of electrical tape over the spoke holes. This then gives something for the Stans tape to stick to and no issues with it sticking to the sides of the rim. I've had 100% success rate doing this with temperamental rims.
Maplin might not be on the high street anymore but they are definitely trading online:
That's not "Maplin". That's just someone who has bought the URL.
Some rims are just terrible for sticking Stans tape on. Rather than resorting to Gorilla tape, I tend to tightly wrap one layer of electrical tape over the spoke holes. This then gives something for the Stans tape to stick to and no issues with it sticking to the sides of the rim. I’ve had 100% success rate doing this with temperamental rims.
A few layers of electrical tape is plenty for MTB pressures anyway. I've only had it fail when I tried it on a road bike.
brand newly set up tubeless wheels ime need a good ride to adequately distribute the sealant, leaving then “a few weeks” before riding will almost certainly leave them flat
Most def, I also find that I need to top up the sealent if the tyres been a bit of pig as well.
Just for clarification, as always, Gorilla is the brand and they have many tape products, the proper tape to use is the clear stuff and not the cloth tape.
Few bits of advice from my own experience:
If a rim is a bugger to get Stans / Tesa 4289 stuck to it (and let's be honest, it's the least sticky sticky tape ever created!), rub the surface up with a bit of medium-grain sandpaper and wash down with IPA. In fact, I generally just clean up rims with IPA as people have said above and have rarely had to use anything more aggressive than this, but my next escalation would be Screwfix's awesome degreaser, which is cheap as chips, great for cleaning stuff and doesn't leave residue.
Ultimately, if it just isn't happening, then stick a tube in it and go for a ride instead. My son's wheels fall into this category and while they are very light, they just won't do tubeless without a level of faff that I just don't want to experience at the trail-side. I just use Conti's lightweight tubes instead and in 3 years I think he's only pinch flatted once or twice, so I don't lose sleep about it any more.
For the sake of multiple 2 hour round trips, just fix it yourself. Lifes too short.