[Closed] Empty Welsh Trail Centres

Scotland helped along a fair bit by the right to ride any path I expect. Most areas of Wales have very few bridleways. Of course DMBinW could campaign for better access, but with relatively small land area within easy reach of large populations I fear Scotland-style freedoms would never work.

There is legislation held up in the Assembly to have similar access rights so hopefully it'll happen soon. Also a lot of the country is criss-croosed with old mining tracks that, while not official bridleways, are completely useable and used regularly. Add in our forests that are pretty much open anyway and you have lots of potential. What we lack is the population density in lots of places fro any dig groups or access forums to develop so nothing happens.

Cannock Chase was super busy this weekend just gone.

When did Cannock chase move to Wales?

I don't think most MTBers in Wales pay any attention to wether something is a bridleway or not!

Cannock Chase was super busy this weekend just gone.

The riding there is also poor compared to Wales

When did Cannock chase move to Wales?

#pedantic alert. You new here?

Folk keep parroting this but seem to forget that the Scottish Land Reform Act applies to areas next to its largest cities too – like the Pentland Hills outside Edinburgh. It’s not all barren wasteland.

While it helps to have a precedent of open access, I don't think it's actually the biggest factor in terms of the successes that DMBinS is having. They're looking at the whole ecosystem of MTB, how it generates cash, supports other businesses, works with other businesses. I will confess at first I did think it sounded like jobs-for-the-boys but since I got working a bit with them I have been impressed at the scope of things they're doing. For example, has anyone in wales done a social media training workshop for people working in and around the industry to promote welsh riding? I doubt it.

Fashions change, people's habits are transitory, and as is always said you have to keeping moving forward just to stand still. I think Welsh trail centres have stood still mostly since the wind farm money dried up. I do still love riding there, but Im old school compared to most riders these days, and still enjoy a 40km ride without assistance! Its just too far for me now (when Tweed is < 2h)

Wales has fantastic scenery, bridleway and empty single track road in spades.
Perhaps riders have discovered there's a world outside trail centres?

Ugh here we go again with the anti-trail centre snobs.

There's definitely potential for a DMBinW, but is there the political will?

I think MTB would be embraced (even further) as an economic benefit in the Valleys, but I still get the impression it's regarded as a nuisance by some in the north of the country.

Fingers crossed for the access reform, that could obviously be a key driver in establishing a DMBinW.

Perhaps riders have discovered there’s a world outside trail centres?

I think @benpinnick nails it really, unless your are constantly pushing the SM side of it then folks will go elsewhere. Look at how well (for instance) BPW, Dyfi and Revolution do their marketing and compare that to the older southern Welsh trails.

Does anyone know how things are going with the campaign to improve access in Wales?

This is the last update I could find: https://www.cyclinguk.org/blog/trails-wales-access-reform-recommendations-disappointing

After a long two-year process and several delays due to the pandemic, the recommendations for how to proceed with access reform in Wales have finally been published. The results are disappointing, but there’s still more to do, explains Cycling UK's campaigns officer, Sophie Gordon

Natural Resources Wales has just published its report outlining options for improving access in Wales, which the Welsh Government committed to do in 2019 following Cycling UK and OpenMTB’s long-running Trails for Wales campaign.

At the time, Hannah Blythyn (then deputy minister for housing & local government) stated: “I will progress significant changes to access rights and facilitate an assumption of non-motorised multi-use on access land and the public rights of way network. This will provide users such as cyclists and horse riders with many more opportunities to access the outdoors near to where they live.”

Unfortunately, this bold vision risks being watered down. Instead of making clear recommendations on the best way to progress with access reform, the report from Natural Resources Wales merely outlines the options and kicks the decision back to government.

Looks like they could do with a bit of help from the community to nudge things along...

Agreed. If you look at places like FoD, or at BPW, they build their trails in accordance with the fashions of the time, when the market dictates that people want motorway jump lines, they build jump lines, not rough tech stuff, and of course vice versa. A lot of "classic" welsh trail centres are at a complete standstill, which brings us back to that loop I wrote earlier.

To my knowledge that was the last update of the open land reform, it seems as usual legislation and other b*llocks is getting in the way again.

I'm no longer involved in the campaigning, but it seems the can has been kicked down the road... again.

Not sure it is anti-trail centre snobbery - it is just a fact of where we live - plenty of great biking to be had all around rather than just 1 wee location. Real advantage of a trail centre is having a lot in one wee place so it doesn't require huge effort and time to get to your good bits - it can get boring after a period of time. However, nothing wrong with them so if people like riding trail centres then all good; if people like riding a variety of places (that may or may no include trail centres) then all good, but trail centres aren't the be-all-and-end-all for most bikers (although I do know a few who only ride at Glentress - despite some great riding on their doorstep, they pile in their cars and drive the 75 minutes each way each weekend to go ride their bikes and just won't entertain that there is great riding to be had without doing the drive).

This thread reminds me in some ways of the early 2000s when trail centres started to spring up around the country, and the arguments of natural vs manmade, reality is there's very little natural trails out there, i go to FoD and a lot of locals and others put a shift in to build and maintain those trails, always have, over the last 25 years biking has just changed, used to be more XC style loops around the likes of FoD, with some parts of current trails taken in, now there's a lot more wanting uplifts, or ebike runs, it's all good as from where i am looking, it's all covered pretty well.

Again, the problem with Afan for me, same as some of the 7Stanes when i lived in Scotland, they are remote, you have to spend 2 hours getting there and 2 hours back, if you're riding for 3-4 hours then it's half your time spent in a car, i struggle to do this as i like to get back for family stuff after a ride, i imagine a lot of folk have time restraints as well, the bigger question if the trails are not being used is why aren't the local riders using it, that should be an easy enough question to answer if those who manage the trails asked it.

the bigger question if the trails are not being used is why aren’t the local riders using it, that should be an easy enough question to answer if those who manage the trails asked it.

They're not rad enough trails.

Look at this forum, it shows the cycling demographic these days.

Most on here are Roadies/Gravel rather than Gnarcore riders... The ones who like it Gnarly, like it proper... not like trail center.

Always surprised at the lack of love for Afan. If I travel up from the South West I'd choose Afan over Cwmcarn, FOD or BPW. Nice mix of trails, some epic downhills, just some tough joining bits. I guess people are put off some of the tough uphills, but then Cwmcarn seems busy and Cafall and TWrch have tough climbs too.

Wales needs a DMBIN[W]S or similar.

We did have for a while, 2010ish I think it started, you can still see the odd 'Cognation' signs at Cwmcarn and Afan, they were also involed with BPW in the early days, they secured millions in funding, it paid for the Bike Park at the top of The Wall, Blue Scar than runs along Penhydd, Cafal and Pedal Hounds DH (or at least formalised Pedal Hounds). They also employed a Ranger to over-see maintenance. I think they also faciliatated the building of Blade with funding from the Wind farm people and the reopening of Penhydd which was closed for years for felling. You could argue without them, there would be a single XC trail at Cwmcarn (which was under threat for a while because whoever decided such things decided it wasn't needed with BPW up the road), Afan would be Whites and the Wall and that would be about it.

North Wales had a simular thing about the same time.

Unfortunately, the ran out at some point and it ended, we still get money thrown it at sometimes, there's a new Blue at Cwmcarn, which despite some evidence, has supposedly never offically opened, and it's 'closed' at the moment. It's a blue that runs like a black if you use a bit of speed, in fact, it's the least friendly blue I know, but it's fun. Twrch got a a lot of updates and there's a new section which seems universally disliked and supposedly only forms the basis for a new connect between Twrch and Cafal, but funding hasn't been secured to do that bit yet.

Perhaps another 'threat' to the TCs is there's a growing movement to make a lot of unoffical trails, offical, like Risca BP, but away from the TCs, Manon Carpenter with sposonship from Spesh is involved somehow I think, but they're working to formalise the trails above North Cardiff and Caerphilly, which are great - I won't get into the whole TC v Natural thing (mostly because calling them 'natural' is laughable, they've all been built0 but they offer a different vibe.

Again, the problem with Afan for me, same as some of the 7Stanes when i lived in Scotland, they are remote

Afan is not even 30 minutes off the M4, within an hours drive of roughly 2 million people, and 3 hours drive from the biggest city in the UK. Where do you want it? In central Manchester? 😀

Everywhere is remote if you live miles away..

Might take the e-bike to Degla on Saturday - 2hrs'ish from home (Derbyshire Dales). Has it really been made as bad as folk have said though?

30 minutes off the M4, within an hours drive of roughly 2 million people, and 3 hours drive from the biggest city in the UK. Where do you want them? In central Manchester? 😀

I didn't say that, i said that was the reason for some of the sites to struggle to get people coming over, travel time and costs, and again, as per the info i said at the bottom of that post, why aren't the locals (those 2 million people) using Afan, it's got the main population hotspots for South Wales all within close range, why are they going the opposite direction?

As for where do i want trail centres, i couldn't really care, i go to FoD (with the renamed Cannop trail centre being located there), or go local around Dursley/Painswick/Cranham.

P.S, would love to see Neath to London in 3 hours 😂

Might take the e-bike to Degla on Saturday – 2hrs’ish from home (Derbyshire Dales). Has it really been made as bad as folk have said though?

Have you been before?

It's alright but will be dull AF on a long-travel eeb. I certainly wouldn't drive two hours and pass much more interesting riding areas to get there.

Real advantage of a trail centre is having a lot in one wee place so it doesn’t require huge effort and time to get to your good bits

The real advantage of a trail centre (for me at least) is that you can pin it without fear of meeting a family with toddlers and dogs in the middle of the trail.

Re Afan, having done it recently it's clearly made for the lower speeds of much older bikes, and a lot of it doesn't flow that well any more.

P.S, would love to see Neath to London in 3 hours

google maps right now (tuesday afternoon admittedly)
can get to the Afan carpark (eg bottom of blue scar, penhydd and y wal)
in three hours or less from anywhere in Hayes, Southall, Feltnam, Hounslow, West drayton - basically the bits between the M40 and M3, and West of the Brent.

I liken trail centres to ski resorts.

You have to travel to get to them.

You've a choice of piste & off piste when you're there.

Personally, I remember the days when it was nothing but cheeky footpaths & bridleways. I'm grateful for TC's means I can ride without having to worry about stacking it into a rambler or a horse's backside. Oh & I like riding up stuff under my own steam which I know in this day & age makes me odd..

Have you been before?

It’s alright but will be dull AF on a long-travel eeb. I certainly wouldn’t drive two hours and pass much more interesting riding areas to get there.

Yeah, probably three times years ago, I don't mind it. My thinking is that the e-bike will probably make it MORE enjoyable haha. I can go out in the Peak any day, just fancied going back there. Would prefer CYB, but it's over 3hrs

The ones who like it Gnarly, like it proper… not like trail center.

Maybe I'm in a minority, but I enjoy riding places like Swinley, or Cannock, as much as riding the Peak, or as much as riding Fort Bill Black. It's all riding bikes

But bugger roads or gravel, they are crap 😉

Maybe I’m in a minority, but I enjoy riding places like Swinley, or Cannock, as much as riding the Peak, or as much as riding Fort Bill Black. It’s all riding bikes

I'm with you 🙂 i may even hit Swinley this afternoon with the lad for no other reason than "it's sunny and nice, why not"

I can promise you this... i won't come here and moan about it either.

Yeah local spots in Swansea are pretty busy with the yoof building stuff I won't ride as it's too scary with gaps and big jumps etc. My 40yr old mates either ride XC locally on Gower, do lots of gravel, or just do BPW - 3 different groups there, and none ride Afan MTB regularly.

Afan is .......3 hours drive from the biggest city in the UK. 

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make. Are you suggesting that 6 hours driving for a days riding is acceptable/ good/ par for the course?

That's a bloody log way

I’m not quite sure what point you’re trying to make. Are you suggesting that 6 hours driving for a days riding is acceptable/ good/ par for the course?

Feels like a minor jaunt to me at the moment.

depends where you start from and what the alternatives are.
I'm 2h 30 from Afan. 2h 10 from cwmcarn. I like both, probably prefer Afan so for me its worth the little extra. The small extra time and the marginal cost increase is negligible when everything is considered.
Last time I was at Cwmcarn I chatted to a guy on an ebike who was from Newport, had ridden there from home. His experience probably differs from mine.

Afan is …….3 hours drive from the biggest city in the UK.

I’m not quite sure what point you’re trying to make. Are you suggesting that 6 hours driving for a days riding is acceptable/ good/ par for the course?

That’s a bloody log way

The point being made was that Afan is remote, when it patently is not remote. It is 3 hours or so from London. Within that distance you've got Reading, Swindon, Bristol, etc, all on the M4, all with a decent sized population, never mind the millions who live in Wales. Whether you want to drive there and back in one day is entirely up to you, but suggesting that Afan is remote is clearly wrong. You aren't far from civilisation if you can get to a Wagamana within minutes of getting in your car at the trail car park.

P.S, would love to see Neath to London in 3 hours

3.5 hours from central Swansea to central Hammersmith, the Saturday before last (Easter Saturday), including a coffee break. The drive back was quicker because it was late.

Afan is remote, when it patently is not remote

Of course it is. ( nearly ) All that generation of trail centre is remote. That's why they built the damn things there in the first place. They're all in that "bloody miles from centres of population, but not quite as far as the really nice bits of the country " distance.

Probably why they are quiet at the moment is fuel cost plus the pandemic making people less likely to stay overnight. I guess that combined with the dry weather might be keeping people local at the moment. I’m sure as the summertime arrives and Covid recedes there will be plenty of people going back to Wales. Coming from Hertfordshire I’ve done Cwmcarn a few times in the past for day trips, but enjoy staying a few days for a tour much more.
I have been based in the Highlands for my bike adventures in the last number of years so I really look forward to riding some of the new Welsh trail centres especially BPW that are often talked about.

I live in N Wales and those trail centers are rammed at the moment. I’ve been mtb’ing for 25 years and have never seen it so busy.

I did visit Afan in the summer of 2020, it was mid week though, and that was a bit quieter.

That said, I do believe the younger generation coming through are more into enduro and ebikes, which does tend to draw them away from trail centers and more towards off piste riding, bike parks or ‘cheeky’ ebiking up somewhere you wouldn’t consider (as much) with a normal bike.

I know a few 20-25yo who are buying ebikes over a normal bike. It will be interesting to see where XC Racing goes in the future.

We are slowly getting more Whistler type trails which you previously had to travel abroad for. The market is clearly there and the older risk adverse places (which TBF often have their hands tied) XC loops and the like will get less and less traffic. Some TC's feel like a bit of a non-event that never really get going. Like they were built by contractors who couldn't give two ****s and certainly not tested to see if they work well. That new flat jump section at Degla with no run in, what were they thinking!?! Not to mention some of the jump size and placement on the Black is odd, against conventions, the run of the trail and can cause massive over and under jumps within a set, especially for noob riders.

There's unofficial trails near me that have boner logs to gap landings and it's not even a well known MTB hot spot, although it has got a lot busier! This is what new intakes want to build/ride/learn to ride.

Times are a changing.

@molgrips

But trail centres are shit and boring, why wouldn't you want to ride better stuff?

The only use they have is to a) teach new people to ride bikes and b) keep the hordes of electronic motorbikes away from the really superb riding in the UK.

But trail centres are shit and boring

No, they're fun.

Often said by roadies with chunky tyres. By all means enjoy grinding out the miles so you can have something else to boast about Monday morning in the crewroom.

Something tells me you've ridden very few of the excellent TC's the UK has to offer.

But trail centres are shit and boring

 

But trail centres are shit and boring, why wouldn’t you want to ride better stuff?

The only use they have is to a) teach new people to ride bikes and b) keep the hordes of electronic motorbikes away from the really superb riding in the UK.

I haven't ridden that many of them (CYB, Degla, Fort Bill, Cannock, BMCC, BPW, Swinley, Eastridge), but I've enjoyed every single one - on a HT, self propelled full sus and e-bike. I've been riding bikes of some flavour for well over 40 years and have the Peak and Derbyshire Dales as my playground.

Any trail is fun and challenging if you ride it fast enough. Most "natural" trails have other trail users so you it's not really safe to go as fast as I could on them.

Of course I wouldn't want to only do trail centres, in fact I rarely do them and haven't done for several years. But they are still fun, assuming you can ride well enough. I mean, Swinley blue taken at a steady pace is quite boring. But go flat out nailing every corner it becomes a white knuckle ride. And if you're a genuinely good rider (which I'm not) then you can start getting some significant air off the berms.

Oh, and you can also do a 'natural' ride and include some trail centre bits in it as well! Mind blown!

Someone mentioned the cost of bike hire in BPW and I see a full day costs £75 (about €88). In Ireland (www.thegap.ie), it's €65 for the same length of time.
For a pedal up pass it's €8 if booked on the same day or €5 if booked in advance. For an uplift it's €45 for the full day (6hr).

BPW doesn't seem too cheap but it's on my bucket list. To be fair though, BPW is much larger than The Gap in Ireland.

BPW isn't cheap... but it's certainly comparable with other TCs in terms of cost (maybe less so if they've now moved to their split days and costs).

What confuses me at times is that people say "The uplift takes a long time"

But what they forget is that top to bottom is 6 mins at BPW and 2.5 mins at FoD for example.... well of course it takes longer to get to the top then hahahaha.

I think they're talking about waiting times for the bus, not the actual ride.

IME that's rarely been an issue. Last week they had a fair few busses running and the longest wait we had was about 4-5mins. It actually took longer for people to load them than it took in the queue itself. In terms of queue length it was up to 30 people, but they were often loading 2 vans at once.

Someone mentioned the cost of bike hire in BPW and I see a full day costs £75 (about €88). In Ireland (www.thegap.ie), it’s €65 for the same length of time.
For a pedal up pass it’s €8 if booked on the same day or €5 if booked in advance. For an uplift it’s €45 for the full day (6hr).

BPW doesn’t seem too cheap but it’s on my bucket list. To be fair though, BPW is much larger than The Gap in Ireland.

I don't know the nuts and bolts of it all, but if I were in Ireland and fancied a trip to a bike park abroad, I'd look past BPW and head to the Alps, it'll cost you more to get there of course, but a lift pass in PDS is as low as €20 a day if you go for a week, or €24 a day for a weekend etc, and there's not a UK bike park that can hold a candle to the PDS region.

I say this as someone who lives 30 mins from BPW, never goes, but heads down to Morzine every summer.

To be fair to them, BPW got hit hard by COVID and the bad weather that occurred just before that, but they have kept expanding and building, so you do get something for that extra cost, the half days weekend shifts aren't that bad for me, 4 hours is enough on my old body, arm pump and knees/hip pain finish me off, i find folk doing those are more focused, whilst all day tickets tend to have the hour and a bit break for lunch, amble back to the bus and so on.

Something tells me you’ve ridden very few of the excellent TC’s the UK has to offer.

I did Llandegla red for the first time with my son the other day, and I was hugely disappointed. It just appeared to go up all the time and lots of big berms it wasnt going to get me going back again.

I wish the likes of BPW etc had more interesting climbs and XC type stuff, and dont see the constant need to be only heading downhill.

I watched a Vid online last night of a bloke who rides alot of bike park type stuff and what appears to be flavour of the month Enduro type DH. He found it like a revelation doing off piste stuff in the lakes, but you could see that manicured bike park thing of not expecting it to be all flow.

I was at BPW only a few weeks ago (weather was glorious for late march) and despite the fact that it is pretty expensive it was rammed with folks both days i was there, and if the T5 is still the MTBers aspirational vehicle of choice, then everyone's got more than enough money to spend both getting there and riding there. Lots of folks I spoke to were there both days. The wait for the bus wasn't too long (and it was warm a sunny after all, which I suspect makes a difference)

The trails were all heaps of fun, and the best thing was overhearing folks saying things like "Well, I'm comfy on those trails, lets do a harder one" or "Can we do one with jumps/techy stuff this time" which is why i suspect it's going from strength to strength.

But trail centres are shit and boring

User error.

I can understand the reasons why people might drive less at the moment, but it doesn't explain how the roads are so chocka. It's taking me longer to get to and from places this year than ever. I'm driving less, but if we all drove less the traffic wouldn't bunch up, shirley?

@relapsed_mandalorian

I had an honest think, and its only afan, Barry, cyb, degla, bpw, dyfi, brechfa, cannock, Cwmcarn, dalby, fod, gisburn, glentress, grizedale, guisborough, hamsterly, kielder, Lee valley, nant yr arian, Nevis, Sherwood, Sutton, swinley, stainburn, Thetford, whinlatter.

Enough to make a judgement? Maybe not enough in the borders? Probably some I've forgotten over the years.

If I had to make an analogy to explain how I feel it would be that going to trail centres feels like masturbating to low-rent porn. Sure, somewhere like Cwmcarn is a little more hardcore than swinley, but in the end I'm still left feeling unfulfilled.

I dunno how that can ever compare to the satisfaction of even non-technical and easy natural riding - e.g. the South downs way (whether in a day or just a loop on a sunny sunday) - let alone the genuine sense of excitement and achievement in the proper hills.

Long may they continue to exist, long may they continue to osmotically absorb the t5s and ebikes, but I hope some of you good people dabble a bit with an OS map and a packed lunch and maybe see the light!

I dunno how that can ever compare to the satisfaction of even non-technical and easy natural riding – e.g. the South downs way (whether in a day or just a loop on a sunny sunday) – let alone the genuine sense of excitement and achievement in the proper hills.

That shows how different people are... If you prefer a day on the SDW than a day in Afan, then i'm not sure i can add anything.

That shows how different people are… If you prefer a day on the SDW than a day in Afan, then i’m not sure i can add anything.

Agreed. Trail centres clearly dont float Continuity's boat. Doesnt mean they're boring, but I do understand his sentiment.

MTB is a broad church.

I can understand the reasons why people might drive less at the moment, but it doesn’t explain how the roads are so chocka. It’s taking me longer to get to and from places this year than ever. I’m driving less, but if we all drove less the traffic wouldn’t bunch up, shirley?

Less people are driving but most likely driving at the same time as everyone else...

I guess some places aren't for everyone or their skill level.

Long may they continue to exist, long may they continue to osmotically absorb the t5s and ebikes, but I hope some of you good people dabble a bit with an OS map and a packed lunch and maybe see the light!

I'm cringing on your behalf here pal.

Anyone know if Nant yr Arian is in good condition nowadays? Lovely memories of cruisy blue swoopy stuff before kids and now want to take them there.

Things change and people move on.

Remember a few years ago there were events (Evans ride it and many others) where people paid £30 odd to park at a village hall or school and ride a cross country loop in a queue with the 200 other people who had also signed up? You don't see many of those now.

I am in a regular group who night ride one or 2 evenings a week, it seems to be deeply unfashionable at the moment and we very rarely see anybody else out. A few years ago we would bump into several groups each ride and there would always be somebody new joining us.

Trail centres are good fun and add some variety but can also make you lazy. No need to read a map, plan a route, take food and water or even spares as everything is there for you.

Who knows, maybe we have all been convinced that we need more and more capable bikes to the point that anything but the most gnarly trails and dull and boring?

If I had to make an analogy to explain how I feel it would be that going to trail centres feels like masturbating to low-rent porn.

Really? That's the analogy that popped into your head?

Who knows, maybe we have all been convinced that we need more and more capable bikes to the point that anything but the most gnarly trails and dull and boring?

Err. In other news, you have a nose on your face.

No need to read a map, plan a route, take food and water or even spares as everything is there for you.

For those of us of a certain age, this was almost a guaranteed necessity for Mtb - at least before you learned which aspect of riding you liked, but since the advent of trail centres and more latterly smart phones and strava, its not necessary anymore.

I don't think it's an mtb pre-requisite to spend hours and hours poring over OS maps and spinning endless moorland BW to discover 5 minutes of good riding, or learn how to string a decent loop together, thats just the only option before tech was good enough that we didn't have to do it.

Sure it gives the old-skool riders a bit of a different skill set and experience, but its not better or worse than the current prevailing norm, just different.

I was at BPW for the first time the other week on a Thursday and it was rammed. Virtually no wait for the uplift, with the next bus loading before the first one departed. Only disappointment was they closed the top section after dinner. Brilliant place, huge fun and can't wait to go back although that may be a while as with fuel and everything else, it was not a cheap few days. It's a 4/5 hour journey each way for me so I just can't imagine I'll drive past BPW to go to the other local South Wales TC's any time soon.

I love a good trail centre but also enjoy exploring and natural stuff. I agree with a point made earlier about modern bikes spoiling some of the older TC's though as back in the early 2000's I thought Dalby was ace but these days I struggle to raise the enthusiasm to go, even though it's reasonably close, as it's dull on my 150/140 LLS gnaarpoon. I'm playing with shorter travel HT's atm though so may revisit some older routes.

are you all confusing trail centres and bike parks again?

I dunno how that can ever compare to the satisfaction of even non-technical and easy natural riding – e.g. the South downs way (whether in a day or just a loop on a sunny sunday) – let alone the genuine sense of excitement and achievement in the proper hills.

You can do both... You don't see people criticising track days because road-tripping across Europe is better. They are different activities. And yes I do both.

I hope some of you good people dabble a bit with an OS map and a packed lunch and maybe see the light!

Pfft. I've been doing this since the early 90s and yet I still like trail centres. Don't be so bloody condescending. Riding natural trails does NOT make you superior. There are lots of ways to enjoy cycling, none is fundamentally superior to any other, you should remember that.

Sure, somewhere like Cwmcarn is a little more hardcore than swinley, but in the end I’m still left feeling unfulfilled.

That sounds like you're expecting the trail to entertain you - how dreadfully passive! Swinley ridden properly fast (if you're fit enough) is an absolute blast and very technical. Oh and in case I need to point it out - technical doesn't just mean rocky.

Swinley ridden properly fast (if you’re fit enough) is an absolute blast

Swinley ridden like a fat middle aged duffer is great if you ask me 🙂

Is it not down to the fact that the face of MTB is changing hugely with the type of terrain evolving? Some of the riding at Wharncliffe is mental compared with 5-10 years ago. Loads of people riding huge stuff and not so many standard bridleway style trails?
The"norm" for many now is what we used to see pros riding in magazines etc

A trail centre then low rent porn sounds like a good day to me. Apart from that though just ride what you want to ride and have fun doing it. I'm of the opinion that if you're not having fun on your bike then you're doing something wrong. Even an easy trail can be made fun with the right attitude.

i quite like a day out pedalling on teh trails but getting anyone to actually do a big day out is pretty difficult these days. most people just want to lap out boring 'flow' trails at bikeparks. the art of riding uphill tech stuff (which the old trail centres now can be as they are weathered in) is mainly dead. while i moan greatly about going uphill i perversely do actually quite like the challenge.

also i wouldnt take my kids to afan, cwmcarn or penmachno because they would be pushing most of it and at coedy they would only be able to do the blue. i would happily take them to most uplift venues.

i quite like a day out pedalling on teh trails but getting anyone to actually do a big day out is pretty difficult these days. 

Where in the country do you live?

brighton.

i dont do pedally days down here as its boring as hell. i do love a good welsh trail centre trail though.

brighton

Ah, um , err...
🤨

As you were.

thinking about it i think MTB being the new golf is quite realistic. with uplifts and ebikes anyone can (and they do) MTB. Before this you actually had to want to get tired and sweaty and have a little bit of talent in order to ride a MTB. now you can be a lazy golfer and have a day out in the sun, expend no energy, and have a pint at the end. hence teh easy options are now busy and the harder ones are less busy.

this is exactly represented on our local trails as the tech trails (or techy bits as we dont have long hard trails) just dont get ridden. the easy flow or jump trails do though. i used to build trails to be as orrible/tech as possible to ride for fun - there isnt any point any more as i`d be the only one riding them.

Anyone know if Nant yr Arian is in good condition nowadays?

One diversion in place a month ago, otherwise fine. I tied the complete Syfridin into a longer trip through the area.
[img] [/img]

are you all confusing trail centres and bike parks again?

No.

hence teh easy options are now busy and the harder ones are less busy.

It's completely the opposite way round here in the Tweed Valley.
There seems to be far more people on both assisted and un assisted bikes riding the hand built trails than the main TC's.

i used to build trails to be as orrible/tech as possible to ride for fun – there isnt any point any more as i`d be the only one riding them.

Seems odd.
You built trails you like riding but don't any more as other people don't like riding them?
So do you now build trails you don't like to ride so others will ride them?
I is confused.

After 2002 I never wanted to set up a Polaris again. We had very fit trail centre riders leaving gates open: and numbers wanting to do two day endurance events on natural terrain were dropping. After the 2007 sub prime crash the numbers doing 5 hour endurance events in Mid Wales withered and the events folded. I had folks complaining that they'd had to ride on grass....
One doesn't have to be fit to ride at uplift centres so....
Weirdly it's the gravel riders doing what the early mountainbikers used to do. The TransCambrian now has a disproportionate number of gravel bikes, considering how few are actually sold.
Numbers for single day events are likely to fall a lot further any place far from population centres, again. Not that remotely placed events/venues have ever properly recovered.
Any one who thinks otherwise, well they just haven't been around long enough.

TransCambrian now has a disproportionate number of gravel bikes

Because it's a perfect long distance gravel ride, but a fairly dull mountain bike ride?

One doesn’t have to be fit to ride at uplift centres so….

This is such a daft thing to say .

cloggy
Full Member

One doesn’t have to be fit to ride at uplift centres so….

I mean, in principle at some venues you can pretty much get the uplift and then roll down but in practice, doing an uplift with even a little commitment is a bloody physical thing. I'm more ruined after a day at fort william that a day's endurance racing. What you lose in seated pedalling for hours you gain in manhandling the bike, absorbing hits, and standing pedalling.