[Closed] Electric bikes need to be stopped.

That's a motor bike. Not an ebike

It's got gears and can be pedaled. It's an e-bike.

It's 2kw. It's a motorbike.

turning the throttle

2000W

That's an electric motorbike, not a pedelec/e-assisted bike

so

[s]Electric bikes [/s] People doing stupid/inappropriate/illegal things need to be stopped.

no different to someone taking a petrol crosser or trials bike there, which assuming it was on a path where they weren't legally allowed is already illegal.

eletric motorbike != e-bike/pedelec, in execution and law they are different things.

yup coz banning us from cycling on 'footpaths' is a policy that works.
In response to the Op I'm gonna go with 'meh'
& what's roost?

There was no 'pedal assist' the rider was just turning the throttle and letting rip.

unless I'm mistaken a "normal" e-bike still requires some pedal input. If it truly is throttle operated then it's probably closer to a motorbike in legal terms

The largest amount of power comes form the motor, not the legs (unless you can push 2000 watts?)
The motor can be run independently of pedaling
It can go over 25kph
It has a throttle

All these are reasons Her Majesty's government say it's a motorbike, not an electric bicycle.

If it truly is throttle operated then it's [s]probably closer to[/s] a motorbike in legal terms

To be an ebike the assist has to stop when to you stop pedalling. It's therefore not a bike but a motorbike.

The assist also has to stop totally when you reach 25kph too

Interesting how ebikes have been around for a couple of years, with the industry getting behind them and the OP is 'Meh'. Sees one dickhead being a dickhead, on a different thing, and pronounces that they should all be banned...

So the fact that this thing was 'pedaled' to and from the car park to the trails past FC employees and nobody said anything doesn't make anyone else a bit apprehensive? This bike was perceived as an e-bike/mountain bike, the fact that the DVLA classifies this as a motorcycle is almost irrelevant.

If the rider had crashed into one of the kids he was riding past and had got away then I'm not convinced that the accident wouldn't be pinned on mountain bikers.

This has to be a drive-by trolling

ah KOM on, who seriously wouldn't want to thrash that around their favourite trails??

Shifting baseline syndrome.

If the rider had crashed into one of the kids he was riding past and had got away then I'm not convinced that the accident wouldn't be pinned on mountain bikers.

This isn't trolling, this is real concern.

I've just had a look at what legally defines an e-bike and this is what I found

EAPC requirements
The requirements are:

the bike must have pedals that can be used to propel it
the electric motor shouldn’t be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph
the motor shouldn’t have a maximum power output of more than 250 watts
It must also display one item from each of the following:

the power output or manufacturer of the motor
the battery’s voltage or maximum speed of the bike

So as long as it 'can' be pedaled then it can also have a throttle as well. So if you put a sticker on the motor/battery stating '250 watts' then who's going to question it?

(unless you can push 2000 watts?)

Per leg. On a rest day.

Looks like a right good laugh to me, I'd love to try it out but then again i've never rode like a dick on a normal bike so perhaps the op's argument flies over my head.

Electric bikes need to be stopped.

I imagine it could be quite dangerous if you're running it brakeless? 😕

[i]Ive seen people crash into others dicking about at Buzzards Nest car park and they were on normal bikes, why is this worse?[/i]

I like to think I'm pretty quick but I don't think I could get 60lb+ bike to do over 25mph uphill. If you hit someone at 25mph+ then you are going to **** them up, that's why it's a concern.

You have to have all the first 3 requirements as well as one of the others for it to be an ebike, the one you link to fails on 2 of the first 3 and one is open to interpretation.

Not. An. E-Bike.

Happy yet?

Pfft.. its got 24" rims.

But its very easy to get a 50lb DH bike upto 25mph downhill and that happens every weekend. Why is uphill worse?

What does it matter if you hit someone at 25mph (I assume your speed gun was calibrated?) whether you are going up or down?

Good to hear someone is thinking of the children though, have you considered baby robins too?

If youre that worried send the FC an email to let them know you saw it being used and their staff were unaware and may need training. Heck if youre that bothered call the police and let them know an unregistered motorbike is being used.

I've got one thats modded with no need to pedal. got most of the MTB climb KOMs about my local tracks. its so funny passing people huffing and puffing.

Thanks for ruining it for those of us that don't break the law.

No, really.

But its very easy to get a 50lb DH bike upto 25mph downhill and that happens every weekend. Why is uphill worse?

The Brinco is nearly 90lbs (39kg). The energies involved in that are substantially greater. You're right, uphill is no worse than downhill, although it means it offers a substantial risk at potentially any point on the trail.

PS Poah may be having a wee troll at you.

[i]But its very easy to get a 50lb DH bike upto 25mph downhill and that happens every weekend. Why is uphill worse?[/i]

I saw this bike being ridden on a slight incline past one of the playgrounds and you'd never be able to get a normal mountain bike to go that fast so no one would be expecting a bike to be going that fast.

Unless you are injured or carrying a disability that stops you riding fully I don't see why a able bodied person would chose one. For those carrying injuries I can totally see their place. It enables injuried people to keep on getting out. For anyone else I think 'wtf'. It just takes all the gear to another level. How many 5grand bikes do you see rocking round smooth trail centres?

I saw this bike being ridden on a slight incline past one of the playgrounds and you'd never be able to get a normal mountain bike to go that fast so no one would be expecting a bike to be going that fast...

Don't expect much succour from the lazy, cake quaffing hourdes on singletrack, just the thought of pedaling sends them into cold sweats.

In the not to distant future, we will be in the minority, while the fat minions are propelled efortlesly around grinning while trashing the trails.

The Brinco is nearly 90lbs (39kg). The energies involved in that are substantially greater.

KEEP OUT FATTIES - YOUR ENERGIES ARE SUBSTANTIALLY GREATER!!!!!

Sounds like a reasonable principle. 🙂

I've got one thats modded with no need to pedal. got most of the MTB climb KOMs about my local tracks. its so funny passing people huffing and puffing.

I rest my case.

[/i]If youre that worried send the FC an email to let them know you saw it being used and their staff were unaware and may need training. Heck if youre that bothered call the police and let them know an unregistered motorbike is being used.[i]

I've already emailed Bedgebury

I've already emailed Bedgebury

was it a calm and considered as your OP?

In the not to distant future, we will be in the minority, while the fat minions are propelled efortlesly around grinning while trashing the trails.

Amen brother! and propel us to the pub afterwards.

If e bikes get too popular I worry the government won't distinguish them from bikes in general and we'll end up needing insurance just to ride a normal push bike ..

What if you mistime the charge?

Will there be AA style recovery vehicles to come up pick up the bloke who can't be aersed to pedal the suddenly heavy bike the rest of the way?

I'm sure I must be missing something. Did someone say this is classified by DVLA as a motorbike? Does that mean it's only allowed to go where motorbikes are?

It always makes me wonder why anyone would ride one ( not a genuine ebike) when you can easily buy an mx bike and do offroad properly on real tracks.

Exactly slowoldman.

Different to a pedal assisted e bike

Oddly I had an encounter with what I assume was an e-bike today whilst taking a regular ride through a local nature reserve. I was struggling to maintain about 15mph into a strong headwind when some chap shot past me at what I would estimate was twice my speed. I didn't get a chance to take a good look at what he was riding, but it did have pedals and he wasn't using them. If it wasn't a e-bike then I'm extremely jealous of his level of fitness!

I don't have a particular issue with e-bikes per se (I've seen mountain bikers riding through the same reserve rather rapidly calling for people to get out of the way and any degree of inconsideration irrespective of what's being ridden can be a problem) but there can be friction between cyclist and bird watchers.

Access to unauthorised motorised vehicles is prohibited and I don't know whether e-bikes qualify as motorised (they have motors); the exception being for the disable with Radar Key access and if an e-bike gets someone with a disability out onto the reserves then that's a good thing.

Access to unauthorised motorised vehicles is prohibited and I don't know whether e-bikes qualify as motorised (they have motors); the exception being for the disable with Radar Key access and if an e-bike gets someone with a disability out onto the reserves then that's a good thing.

And yet in Europe, E-bikes are everywhere. All the shops have huge amounts for sale, at an expo at an event most of the bikes on the stands were e-bikes, and this was a XCM event. While this seems to be a huge issue causing angst in the Uk and US, Europe seems to have just got on with it.

Exactly slowoldman.
Different to a pedal assisted e bike

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread thoroughly but if I am reading it correctly then and e-bike is a bicycle because the electrical assist only applies when pedaling? I've seen plenty of folk around town riding e-bikes that were quite obviously being powered with no pedaling involved and the chap this morning wasn't pedaling either.

Try reading the whole thread then? its only 2 pages.

But yes, upto 15mph you are legal regardless. It used to be you could buy a throttle one but these are no longer legal to sell (from what ive read), but are still legal to use. Go faster though and you are illegal regardless. Of course everyone in the country thinks speeding in a car is safe so why do you all care about it offroad?

Well I'm still not sure what I came across but it was certainly shifting!

There's some handy information here (including legal definitions by country) - [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle#Classes ]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle#Classes[/url]

Oh

My

God!

What if he'd run over a baby robin?!

That is all....

Well we've had the wheel size debate and now we have the engine debate. Where do you stand??????

Astride my perfectly legal ebike

I like em.

If it stops the "whoa, whaaaaaaa, fraaaap, ping, brummmmmm, whaaaaaaaa, zipppp, zipppp, greeeeeeeeeeee, whoa" of KTM200's all over the Yorkshire Dales gravel trails then I'm all for em'.

Nothing wrong with folks having a hoot of a time, but the noise is just annoying now.

I don't see the problem with e-bikes that adhere to the DVLA rules, but cobbling together a sort of lightweight e-motorbike and sneaking it under the radar by putting some pedals on, so the owners can just behave like scrotes takes the piss really...

If you want an e-motorbike/motorbike then buy one and, get licenced and taxed and ride it in the appropriate places...

TBH I could see a better market for the bike the OP linked, if they just ditched the token bicycle drivetrain, made use of the extra battery space, put some durable slicks on, capped the speed at ~55mph, and flogged it for use as a sensible daily commuter M/C, a viable alternative to 'Bee a tin can' 125s so the power rangers can save wear and tear on their 'proper' bikes for the weekends... Mechanically it's way simpler than a proper motorbike, basic frame, fork, brakes, battery and that big bastard motor built into the rear wheel which makes it cheap, far easier to maintain and about as eco-friendly as a motorcycle could ever get...

[url= http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2014/may/may2114-can-bultacos-tempt-you-to-go-electric/ ]Actually it seems they're trying that angle too[/url]...

It's not even a 650b, there trying to push 24" wheels! I'll wait till next year when. They release the 650b and 29er..and hopefully a dropper post. 😀

[img] [/img]

the fat minions

Oi I resemble that remark and I like pedalling uphill that's how I plan to become just a podgy minion.

I think we should ban electric cars as they could be confused with a remote control car especially if the remote control car is close but the electric car far away. 😛

Seriously though this is an issue for rangers and the police to be aware of, not a reason to ban e-bikes.

Is it 'Boost' compatible? If not it's not worth shit.

I was thinking the easy solution is to just ban all forms of powered devices from bridlepaths, but then i though there may be some people who want to use a bit of bridlepath as part of their commute.
So basically it comes back to the government restrictions on powered bikes, the same restrictions should apply to bridlepaths.

[s]Electric bikes[/s] Idiots need to be stopped, E bikes are looking cool...

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/specialized-74-scrambler-concept-bike-46888/ ]Specialized scrambler concept e bike[/url]

I regularly go over 30mph going down hills off road. Not sure why it is any different if I was going uphill at 25mph if I was fit enough.

Speed is not the issue here.

Ban'em all motor or no motor.

I was ambivalent to negative regarding e-bikes until I got chatting to a guy at Cannock riding one. He was mid to late fifties and his knees were shot so couldn't pedal uphill, ok on flat and downhill but too painful to ride uphill. He loved his MTB'ing so bought an e-bike to continue having fun. This made me appreciate the benefit of them for those who might have to give up riding bikes due to a health issue such as described. therefore I feel they are fine and it's each to his/her own with them.

Exactly the same with father in law. He loves riding everyday but his age has taken it's toll and he could no longer ride for very long. His bike allows him to go out for as long as he used too and gives him that enjoyment everyday.

It always makes me wonder why anyone would ride one ( not a genuine ebike) when you can easily buy an mx bike and do offroad properly on real tracks.

I think the OP was making the point that while the legal differences between an e-bike and an electric motorbike are relatively clear, out in the real world their similarity can be used to access trails where motorbikes would be usually kept out. So having the power, but looking like an e-bike, has obvious advantages to the rider. As tech moves on, the opportunity to make use of this will grow as well; more power in more bike like looking machines.

I've always argued that ebikes are great, especially if they do actually take off for transportation (I thought they'd be huge for this already to be honest, not sure why take up isn't greater) but the blurring of the lines between a bike and an ebike (this already exists deliberately in law, and in marketing) combined with the real world blurring of the line between ebikes and electric motor bikes, has knock on effects in terms of access that we ignore at our peril.

I'm in no way arguing that e-bikes shouldn't be used off road, but if /when they become popular, and if/when people make use of to this to use electric motor bikes more in places people really don't expect motor bikes, there will be repercussions for all riders. What they'll be? No idea… but don't act all suprised when things change.

People who break the law need to be stopped. That's basically what the OP ought to be saying. The bikes are fine.

How? The riders will just say the law is an ass, and take their bikes where they want, if they look just like legal machines.

Current access laws are a mess anyway… not sure anyone really wants those enforcing, even if it was possible.

It's not clear cut on "private" land, like FE sites, anyway.

How?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/aug/22/yorkshire-national-parks

That kind of enforcement is exactly why having an electric motor bike, that is more easily confused with an e-bike, which is legally a bike, could have such a draw for some riders.

there will be repercussions for all riders.

This gets trotted out a lot and I don't think it necessarily has to be true. There will only be repercussions for [b]all [/b]riders if it's dealt with lazily and in a knee-jerk way.

If it's actually dealt with properly*, then there need only be repercussions for the people breaking the law.

The problem is that the resources (and will?) to do it properly may not be forthcoming from authorities, so we might end up with a lazy knee-jerk reaction like bannings** instead of a more measured and appropriate response.

The visual similarity issue is real, but then we have the same thing with illegally modified cars/bikes on the road and the only way to deal with it is enforcement, and strict enough penalties so that it's not allowed to become a more widespread problem.

Electric motorbikes are actually the easy bit to deal with as they can be treated in law just like petrol bikes, with registration, insurance, annual checks etc. And illegal use of them dealt with in the same way.

The bigger underground issue is de-restricted and modified/homebuilds, but they only become an issue when used inappropriately, if a de-restricted e-bike is used sensibly you might never know it's illegal, and frankly if it's used sensibly why should anyone care? So we're back to inappropriate use, and come full circle back to enforcement and penalties for the specific user and not the law abiding majority.

* By properly I mean there being actual enforced penalties for using illegal machines, get caught (ah resources issue there!) using an illegal machine and it gets confiscated/crushed much like with untaxed cars and you get fined. The guy in the OP would/should have been dealt with in the same way a petrol crosser would have been, and I get that the visual similarity and lack of knowledge amoung general public [i]could [/i]cause future problems for e-bikes, which is why it needs the proper enforcement and deterrent stuff sorted so that we end up with legal use by default, except for the obvious minority of miscreants which can be dealt with.

I guess it also needs action within the retail/distribution area? there has to be some responsibly around providing unrestricted machines or performing modifications. I don't know how to make that work practically (hopefully cleverer people than me can work that out) as simply owning a de-restricted machine isn't the problem, it's the inappropriate use of it so it goes beyond the dealers anyway.

** this winds me up too, as the kind of bikes that people are worried about, powerful electric motorbikes, are already not legal to ride on bridleways/trails so they're already banned!

Summary =>

Rule 1 - Don't be a dick
Rule 2 - If some people are dicks, punish [i]them[/i] for being dicks

Can I just check I have understood the OP thought process

1) e-Motorbikes can be ridden illegally on bridleways
2) e-Motorbikes can be mistaken for e-bikes
1+2=3) Make it illegal to ride e-bikes on bridleways just in case

Not totally sure that makes sense or will stop illegal use of e-motorbikes

1) Walkers use footpaths
2) Rapists walk
1+2=3) Arrest all walkers for rape just in case

Now it all becomes clear...

Lazy knee jerk reaction is what will happen though, as there isn't the resource or will to bother with proper enforcement. Seen the same thing happen with motorbike and 4x4 access. Few dicks go 'off piste' and rip the place up = the legal byway is closed to all motorised traffic (some may say that's a good thing, but that's not the point here) as that is easier than enforcing the laws that the dicks are breaking/flouting. The responsible law abiding abide by the ban and the dicks carry on 🙁

The responsible law abiding abide by the ban and the dicks carry on

Well if that didn't happen we wouldn't need many prisons or courts of law...

Reminds me of one of my parents neighbours who complained people were ignoring the 30mph limit through her village.

Her solution was to make it a 20mph limit.

And yet in Europe, E-bikes are everywhere. All the shops have huge amounts for sale, at an expo at an event most of the bikes on the stands were e-bikes, and this was a XCM event. While this seems to be a huge issue causing angst in the Uk and US, Europe seems to have just got on with it.

*Which reminds me of a joke my 7 yo son told to me last night -
If you're English when you're watching TV and English when you go to bed what are you when you use the toilet?
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European.