Sat pondering about e-bikes and how far the technology might go. How about an e-bike with an integrated AI controlled exoskeleton? The exoskeleton would assist the rider with body position/weighting, negating any body resistance or lack of response by the rider to any other AI controlled balance or braking systems.
Electric bikes are really good in many ways. Quite a few of my riding mates have bought them for a variety of reasons; recovering from illness, injuries; or they plain just like the downs up the up. Although noticeably it's the riders who were always a bit less fit (and hence didn't enjoy the ups?) who have changed first. I'll be on an eMTB one day but I like the fitness (suffering?) of acoustic bikes. Also I like the simplicity of unassisted bikes. Just don't tell me that you get as much of a work out on a eMTB!
You might as well just stop messing around trying to pretend it's a bike and buy a motorbike. The difference to a SurRon is entirely arbitrary.
This perfectly illustrates my point on lack of knowledge.
A surron has 5x the torque and nearly 12x the peak power output of your typical ebike. Not even an AMflow with DJI comes faintly close to close to that.
Equating Sur-rons to ebikes just makes you look clueless.
“acoustic” Please don’t.
Seconded. Marketeers bullshine. No thanks.
The prejudice and judgemental attitudes on this thread are hilarious. I'm a biker, always have been and love to chat to others when out and about. Now I realise that a lot of you hate me for what I am doing when out on my ebike! Amazing how we get sucked into division and othering
The prejudice and judgemental attitudes on this thread are hilarious. I'm a biker, always have been and love to chat to others when out and about. Now I realise that a lot of you hate me for what I am doing when out on my ebike! Amazing how we get sucked into division and othering
Do you care though ? i was at Cwmcarn last week on Wed and my lad killed the battery on the Mondraker Dune XR at 1pm. So between 1 and 3pm i towed him up on his DH using my Rise and i charged the Dune using a petrol powered generator. I think i broke just about everything on STW by doing that.
The great news was, i had 98% battery on the Dune for riding trails near Dyfi the next day 😀
I couldn't give a monkeys what others think when i'm on the Eeb, i just ride and enjoy 🙂
The prejudice and judgemental attitudes on this thread are hilarious. I'm a biker, always have been and love to chat to others when out and about. Now I realise that a lot of you hate me for what I am doing when out on my ebike! Amazing how we get sucked into division and othering
Is it necessary to go off the deep end like this? It appears to just be you using the word "hate". I can't imagine it's a surprise to learn ebikes aren't universally loved by everyone.
You might as well just stop messing around trying to pretend it's a bike and buy a motorbike. The difference to a SurRon is entirely arbitrary.
😂😂😂
Oh the ignorance!
😂😂😂
Whilst I concede that a Sur-Ron is by definition, an electrically powered motorbike... As a keen motorcyclist, a Sur-Ron is to motorcycling what a £200 Halfords special "ATB" with "dual suspension", weight to rival that of most eBikes and completely unsuitable geometry and components for off road, is to Mountain Biking...
One of my motorbikes has 160bhp, or 120KW if we're working in metric... My Bosch powered eBike can give as much as 600W of power boost on top of whatever I put in (not that I ever ride in Turbo mode anyway)... So my motorbike is 200x more powerful than my eMTB!
I will say this now, just once, so pay attention... THEY ARE NOT THE SAME!!!
Aside from the fact I can't ride my motorbikes where I often ride MTB's, they are absolute chalk and cheese to ride. OK so some of the latest eBike motors are now starting to more than double what the typical rider can put out at peak power in their turbo modes which arguably is getting away from the original point of them in some way, but the way I see an eMTB is that basically it's like you're always having a good day power/fitness wise and hence they can be a great leveller. More's the point, those decrying "It's easier, stop kidding yourself" aren't getting it either... Yes, I KNOW it's easier... That's why I'm typically doing twice the mileage and climbing on an eMTB as I would on a conventional unassisted MTB for reference. And for me, more miles = more smiles... Jameso has it completely right that largely MTB has come from "ride culture" rather than "pedal culture"... If you enjoy suffering to the point that you're not happy unless you're grimacing on a climb, then I know thousands of miserable roadies (I know a few nice ones too, but not many!) that will recite Rule 5 to you ad infinitum in their defence that cycling is about suffering, NOT having fun...
I wholeheartedly agree!
The issue is that you and I are amongst a small percentage of moderates, happy to embrace difference and diversity, amongst a sea of angry people that NEED to feel part of a partisan group as it defines their identity... For reference, as a keen motorcyclist too, motorcyclists on the whole are far worse than any cyclists when it comes to finding differences to argue about. What's even worse is that the mere hint of a discussion about cycling (MTB or road) in a group of motorcyclists (often mostly middle aged white men, as most enthusiast cyclists are too) will leave them foaming at the mouth in entitlement, claims of "not paying road tax" and worse... I've had to listen to someone I thought was a friend, go on about cyclists being scum and how they should all be shot, as for some reason he believes that his identity as a motorcyclist is somehow undermined by other road users on a 2 wheeled form of transport that you pedal rather than twist a throttle on...
People are ****ing weird!!!
Buy the bike... Enjoy riding the bike... Be a dick about it on the internet if you have to be! But don't expect everybody to share your own unique take on things or you'll end up pretty lonely in your world filled of hate and vitriol for others!
In a kind of perverse way, I suppose I like it if someone doesn't like my choice of bike and openly shows it. I can then think to myself '****' and carry on enjoying my riding.
In real life though I don't really encounter much negativity, just on here mostly....
Just to add, anecdotally - the riding group I go out with sometimes, fit virtually none of the stereotypes mentioned most frequently in this thread. They resisted ebikes for a good few years whilst I was riding one. The majority of them are super fit younger than me lads who would leave me for dead - they've now adopted ebikes for laps at Black Rocks in Cromford or Win Hill in the Peak. And still eclipse my riding abilities 😭😂
Don't want an e bike but the folks in finding myself riding with all have them and it can feel awkward. Then again I don't want to have to buy one to keep up with them.
It's the obsolescence that turns me off, I see the future of new/better motors with recent models just being ditched so riders can have the newest motor etc. whereas, barring a few odd standards, I can still fix and ride my 6yr old starling easily at home.
It's the obsolescence that turns me off, I see the future of new/better motors with recent models just being ditched so riders can have the newest motor etc. whereas, barring a few odd standards, I can still fix and ride my 6yr old starling easily at home.
Although you can’t repair motors at home, they’re not changing that fast. The motor fitted in the current Levo is still essentially the same as the one in my Levo that’s over 6 years old. And from what I’ve heard/seen, getting motors repaired outside warranty isn’t that expensive compared to servicing/repair costs on other complex parts like forks and shocks, or high end drivetrain parts.
It is annoying how it’s divided riding groups somewhat though.
I'd love an eBike... I'm a Dad with a young kid (and another on the way!) so having that extra assitance to power up the climbs, squeeze in more laps etc sounds like a dream!
However! I want to ride an eBike as hard as I ride a bike - I want the workout. Most of my riding group are on bikes so this'd mean I'd be riding far ahead on my own and misses the point of one of the things I love about MTB - the social side!
i dont have an ebike. as others have mentioned, i like the challenge of an entire ride. the ups, downs, lung burn, adrenaline etc. I dont need to be throwing myself down the gnar to enjoy my time on a bike. flats and uphill makes me smile too!
I know many are saying you can blow yourself up on an ebike, which i am sure you can, but my question is, why do i never see this? There are two guys i ride with occasionally who have big ebikes. Neither put any effort in, let the bike do all the work. And in this day and age i see hundreds of ebike riders where i ride (surrey hills, Petersfield area, hindhead etc) and again, i dont ever see any of them with sweat pouring down their faces. 99% of the time, seat down, highest gear, hoodies and trousers, cranking along at a low cadence.
As i say, i am sure you can work hard on an ebike, i am just yet to witness anyone doing so. Something for a very very small percentage of ebikers?? (not an attack, a genuine enquiry)
But don't expect everybody to share your own unique take on things or you'll end up pretty lonely in your world filled of hate and vitriol for others!
There's a certain irony that you've written a pretty long and very emphatic post in the course of which you tell people in no uncertain terms HOW THINGS ARE in block caps, which finishes by cautioning against expecting everyone to share 'your own unique take on things' 🙄
It just shows how dangerous e-bikes are to any sort of considered discussion. Along with their other issues, like being a bit noisy and a bit expensive.
Don't worry, I think he is just embracing change and enjoying it.I haven't read any posts on this thread but the original one.
It makes me slightly sad that a rider I know is many levels above my own skill and whose posts I have appreciated over the years can only get his pleasure now from artificial aids.
I think this thread really captures how differently everyone rides MTB.
I've got normal bikes and an ebike and I ride whichever one the mood takes me on the day (and what the group is riding).
So many of the areas I ride are very much winch and plummet trails, which is perfect for the ebike. And because of that I don't think I'd ever buy an enduro/long-travel mountain bike without a motor again, simply because the motor makes it essentially an uplift, doubling or tripling the number of loops you can do in the same timespan.
However, if I was doing a big day out or an XC ride, or even just a nice loop, I'd take a normal bike every single time because it's less hassle.
First post in a while so might as well go in the deep end 🙂
I got my first ebike in December after many years of looking at them and thinking "FU*@, that looks horrible" I had no other reason not to buy one other than how they looked. I am not sure if they have got better looking or if my brain has reset its understanding of what a bike should look like, but I am not as disgusted now.
Anyway, I was going LT as opposed to full fat as the bikes, specifcally the DecoySN, were starting to look like.....erm.....bikes. A mess up with the cycle scheme at work meant I had to cancel my Decoy order and after a massive, and i accept childish' hissy fit, I Googled "Best ebike UK" and bought what came up in a number of reviews. Well bugger me! If it isn't the best bike I have ever owned, and I have owned a few. Utterly lush going down anything tech or flow, and a degree of fun tackling some of the climbs, at worst it makes them bearable.
Is it noisy? No. is it heavy? Not really (21kg) has it turned me into a rude ignoramous on the trails? No. Have I lost fitness? This one is still out with the jury. I am keeping 3-4 Wattbike sessions a week going to stave off the potential loss of fitness but what I have found is that you are in control of what you do on an ebike. You don't have to lose fitness, just push harder. TBH the same can be said for a bike, if you don't put effort in your fitness will not improve, the only difference is that you have no other option on a bike. With an ebike you can choose a lazy day or a strong day, it is your choice not the bikes choice. I will still use my Enduro bike for uplift days but I am not going to be pedalling that thing at the likes of FoD when I don't have to 🙂
Finally, getting back on track with the original OP from @jedi, I love the eeb, I even almost love the look of it, almost. And do I think the future is ebikes, yes I think it may well be. That said, I have an hilly event called BatchBurner in June and as my mate is on a bike then i will be on a bike. I might come back here then and let you know what the impact of predominatly riding ebikes was to my ability to finish.
As i say, i am sure you can work hard on an ebike, i am just yet to witness anyone doing so. Something for a very very small percentage of ebikers?? (not an attack, a genuine enquiry)
I think it is a minority but I think it's also one of those things where if they're working that hard on an ebike they're going past you so fast you've not had a chance to notice, or if the assistance is turned down more then you've probably assumed they're not on an ebike.
If you choose to wear more clothes on an ebike then you'll usually work less hard than on a normal bike because otherwise you'll melt! I think the choice of clothing on a ebiker tells you the most about how much exercise they want to get.
A mess up with the cycle scheme at work meant I had to cancel my Decoy order
Sounds like a lucky escape - that fazua motor used in the decoy seems like a disaster
I did say a few years back that MTB (the mainstream and media image at least) would be a powered sport soon enough but was half expecting to be proven wrong. Doesn't look like it now if you go to any trail centre or laps spot.
I remember you posting that a few times, and I still disagree.
Yes you do see a higher proportion of eebs at trail centres (as Alex said about Cwmcarn) but I feel this is newbies discovering them and using them for an easy navigation ride, the same way a lot of us did 15 years or more ago.
I'm still seeing more unpowered bikes (is that better than "accoustic"? Not that I care) overall, and the majority of the young (mainly faster than me) riders I meet are not on eebs.
More middle aged riders might give up on the fitness side and go fully eeb, but normal bikes will always be there in parallel - even if they become a minority eventually, they will always be a big minority IMO.
.....acoustic.... What's your vibe...
[sighs]
My "Vibe"?
Honestly? who gives a **** anymore? Apparently if I don't get an absolute monster erection at the merest mention of a £10k Eeeeb I'm some sort of terrible fun sponge, luddite and hater. but I just can't get excited by them.
The truth is MTBs are not new anymore and I kind of see their electrification as just another step along the road of general "enshittification"... MTBs might just have had their day, adding a motor doesn't do much beyond making them more appealing to knuckle draggers (IMO)...
I'm just tired of hearing/reading about E-MTBs, from what I can tell they break all the time, cost a fortune and owning one means you have to whine about the oppressive laws that prevent you hacking the assist limits or fitting a throttle... But people still do those things and suffer zero consequences...
I will forever be hung up on the "vibe" of them not actually being 'proper' bicycles, as will a certain minority, but we're largely irrelevant so carry on... 😉
Why can’t they just be called ‘bikes’ and ‘e-bikes’? When you want to talk about your downhill bike we call it a ‘DH bike’ which is part of the description. Why do we need to start thinking up lame names for normal bikes?
@julians I think you might be right. The one I ended up with may have a more obvious motor but at least it has a better reputation, as far as these things can. Mine will blow up at the weekend now I have typed thatA mess up with the cycle scheme at work meant I had to cancel my Decoy order
Sounds like a lucky escape - that fazua motor used in the decoy seems like a disaster
Yes you do see a higher proportion of eebs at trail centres (as Alex said about Cwmcarn) but I feel this is newbies discovering them and using them for an easy navigation ride, the same way a lot of us did 15 years or more ago.
I'm still seeing more unpowered bikes (is that better than "accoustic"? Not that I care) overall, and the majority of the young (mainly faster than me) riders I meet are not on eebs.
I have to disagree with this - you only have to ride with the Risca Riders once or twice to see that the majority of the local lads are on ebikes. And there's plenty of us in our 30s and even 20s!
Classic double post
I remember you posting that a few times, and I still disagree.
Yes you do see a higher proportion of eebs at trail centres (as Alex said about Cwmcarn) but I feel this is newbies discovering them and using them for an easy navigation ride, the same way a lot of us did 15 years or more ago.
I also see more e-bikes on the local trails these days, not just TCs. Anecdata either way aside, the way most brand's ranges are going now suggests it's the way things are headed. As you say, regular bikes won't end up as niche as a curly bar rigid SS is now but I think they will be the minority in terms of rider hours of use. I'd be quite (very!) happy to be wrong, that's just where my bet is.
I have to disagree with this - you only have to ride with the Risca Riders once or twice to see that the majority of the local lads are on ebikes. And there's plenty of us in our 30s and even 20s!
I've ridden at Risca a few times (and bumped into the Risca Riders on their eebs) and I would 100% have got one as well by now if it was my local. That climb is disgusting.
Anecdata either way aside
Yeah I suppose the experience is different for everyone (see Risca anecdote), and none of us really know when eebs will reach saturation point.
Let's meet back here in 10 years and see what's happened eh 😀
Apparently if I don't get an absolute monster erection at the merest mention of a £10k Eeeeb I'm some sort of terrible fun sponge, luddite and hater
There's a distinct difference between being indifferent to them and moaning about them
As i say, i am sure you can work hard on an ebike, i am just yet to witness anyone doing so. Something for a very very small percentage of ebikers?? (not an attack, a genuine enquiry)
I was drafted, on the road, by an old boy on a full -us e-mtb when I was out on my gravel bike yesterday. He was working quite hard, mostly because we were exceeding the legal e-bike limit, so he appeared to be getting quite a good workout, which was nice.
Personally I've found an e-mtb brilliant for recovery rides as my local stuff is pretty hilly. I figure if I want to hammer myself, then not having assistance is probably more effective, but I'm sure there are people who use e-bikes for training. There's an app for the earlier Specialized Levo, at least, that allows you to set a target heart rate, so the bike controls assistance levels to keep your HR around that point.
I suspect relatively few people use an e-bike like that, but that's just conjecture.
Sam Pilgrim has just had delivery of a few new updated Sur Ron eebs, saves on the pedally side of things but still looks like a workout to me. It's all bikes and fun at the end of the day, choose your poison.
Sam Pilgrim has just had delivery of a few new updated Sur Ron eebs,
That's the next stage of all this.. think the division is bad now? Wait until E-MTB and E-MX gets blurred by very lightweight, less powerful Surron type bikes with enough range for 2-3 hours of DH laps.
There's an app for the earlier Specialized Levo, at least, that allows you to set a target heart rate, so the bike controls assistance levels to keep your HR around that point.
I suspect relatively few people use an e-bike like that, but that's just conjecture.
I actually intend to do this with my new Levo due to a few heart related issues
But then I'm one of the few that ride an ebike so it still does give you a workout (on most rides - some I'll make it easier than others)
There's a certain irony that you've written a pretty long and very emphatic post in the course of which you tell people in no uncertain terms HOW THINGS ARE in block caps, which finishes by cautioning against expecting everyone to share 'your own unique take on things'
Re-read my post...
Irony appreciated, but I am not trying to get you or anyone else to agree with my particular view point, I am punching holes in the arguments of those so closed minded that they can't see past their own viewpoint. I am not telling it how it is, more telling it in no uncertain terms, how it isn't...
My view on eBikes has changed over the years for sure... 10yrs ago I thought they were a novel idea but they didn't really interest me. Now they form most of my MTB based interest and ride experiences... I was never hard-line "no" when it came to eBike ownership/use, but I have been quite surprised myself as to how eBikes have changed and improved to suit my use case in particular over the last few years, and I think a lot of people would do a lot better to be a bit more open minded themselves!
Mboy plus 1.
I thought I knew how I would use an ebike, but the reality has been much more rewarding and liberating than I realised it would be.
Weirdly, for me it's only been a small part of it. I use mine only as an uplift shuttle, on 'rides' i'll still use the MTB. It has made some days out a lot better... but it's not been life changing in other ways.
I note the exortions to be open minded aren't reaching as far as electrical motorbikes.
I think it's interesting that theres a spectrum from acoustic -> low power eebs --> high power, all with pedals -> thing no pedals . It seems to me that rather than the appearance of a motor being most important, its the presence, non presence of pedals.
I note the exortions to be open minded aren't reaching as far as electrical motorbikes.
Are you suggesting they should do?
I mean, they're better than ICE motorbikes in terms of noise pollution - but I doubt many of us want to see them on the trails away from their RoWs.
Not going to read the article but headline seems a bit
