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I know any rant here is preaching to the choir but why, in a society, where it's unacceptable to treat people differently because of race, creed or colour, do people think it's perfectly acceptable to try and kill cyclists?
Two of today's stand out events were an old bloke who is probably a perectly lovely grandad to someone, a man who I'd probably pass the time of day with while walking the dog. Just because I'm slogging up hill on a bike and he's had to wait a few seconds for the overtake, he feels justified in crawling past slowly, pointing at the footpath then waving insulting hand gestures at me.
The second was on a dual carriageway, two lanes in either direction. Couple of cars come past closer than I feel comfortable with given the windy conditions, so a quick shoulder check and I move into a more commanding lane position. Moments later, some bellend passes me me less than two inches between my elbow and his wind mirror. Thing is, given my position, he wasn't squeezing past in my lane, nothing could pass in lane 2, he was just being a cock.
Don't suppose anyone has the answers but I just need to vent. Wondering if a letter to the chief constable and my MP might not go a miss.
🙁
Treat all car drivers as ****s and you'll never be disappointed.
I refer you to my thread about white bmws 'guess the car'.
It's a ****ing Saturday for gods sake, who feels the need to gain an extra ten seconds by nearly killing people? Or why are some peoples lives so empty that they have to be the big'un by buzzing cyclists?
It all really boils down to one thing. These people are bell ends. Satisfy yourself that they probably live dull little lives that make them feel the need to act like bell ends.
There's too much terrible behaviour by drivers.
The other day i had to wait maybe 15 or 20 seconds until it was safe to overtake a cyclist. The moron behind me obviously took exception to the wait and missed a head on collision with oncoming motorist by inches. Because she didn't want to wait any longer.
what is it with people....
It's not just the drivers. I frequently get evil glares from the passanger seat as well. Why do we suffer such hatred and what can be done about it?
It's a **** Saturday for gods sake, who feels the need to gain an extra ten seconds by nearly killing people?
^^this.
I don't get it either. Sure, cyclists seem to be Public Enemy #1 at the moment, but I see it in the car too. You rather hope these characters are a bit more personable outside their metal boxes, but fear not.
Onzadog,
i wish i knew, i work for a local authority and many people know me as the guy who rides. Sometimes people will come over to have a wine about some perceived injustice they've received at the hands of a cyclist. "WHAT YOU SAW TWO RIDING SIDE BY SIDE?". Bastards deserve prison...ooh, actually its legal
If the Police,CPS and Judiciary did the job their paid to the problem would end.
I used to work in traffic management for a local authority as well. Cycling and cyclists were not well regarding. Cycling facitities were an after thought and a box ticking excercise on most schemes.
I don't want to become a flag waving cycling campaigning bore, but I can see why people do. I just want to go out for a ride without any bother. Go out for a couple of hours near a large conurbation and if not a case of if there's bother, but when and how often.
pointing at the footpath
... which it's illegal to ride on.
I think fundamentally, the problem is that cyclists are still a minority. That is to say, people aren't accustomed to seeing them as commonplace on the roads. Cycling seems to be on an upward trend though so I think - hope - this will improve as we become a more common sight. So they barge past as they don't know what else to do.
It does baffle me though how some people will follow a slow moving vehicle - a tractor say - until the heat death of the universe, but when faced with a stationary obstruction or a cyclist will cheerfully throw their vehicle onto the opposite carriageway and expect oncoming traffic to just scatter.
aa - barely a ride passes when I don't see our group getting " punishment passes" for riding two abreast.
A public information ad on that alone would I bet save countless incidents.
Two abreast when it's not safe to pass is perfectly fine, sensible even.
Two abreast when you're just holding up traffic for giggles is nobbish.
I get a bit anal about it. Admittedly i live in a medium sized village/small town and bike/drive commute along 8 miles of dual carriageway so don't see many cyclists (and the bad habits the town cyclists apparantly have. BUT, i sometimes count how many law breaking cars i see on my commute and its ****ing hundreds daily opposed to maybe 30 cyclists breaking the law each year.
It worries me how easily "punishment pass" has entered into the vocabulary of people, and not just cyclists. It almost makes it seem acceptable to people.
I don't know about anyone else, but its starting to get me down when I know things like these will without a doubt happen whenever I take my bike on the road.
Just last year alone when cycling along and keeping up with the traffic, I have had drivers pull along side me, turn into me and force me out of the road!
OP - They both probably had important things to be doing and you were in their way. You should learn from the experience and try to be more important, like what they are. First lesson: important people don't ride bikes. Ever. Forget all those stories you've heard about surgeons riding to work because they understand the health benefits - these are lies circulated by unimportant people. Surgeons drive monster trucks and crush anyone that gets in their way because surgeons are important people who save the lives of important people who have been injured behind the wheel in collisions caused by cyclists.
And anyway, if it's illegal to cycle on the footpath why can't they ride their bikes in the sewer?
Don't get me started - what is it about spatial awareness or the lack of it possessed by a certain genre of women? Out for a quiet ride, approaching a junction and this t~*t decides to pass me and then pull in to turn left causing me to brake sharply - it's a junction with good visibility to the right and uphill so I usually keep my speed on until the last minute. Then she sits there waiting for the imaginary traffic to pass before pulling out.....then there's the one who sits right on my wheel missing a whole load of passing opportunities before proceeding at my speed +1mph in to oncoming traffic FFS. I've taken to riding in the middle of the lane to spite them all!
loving the way the profanity filter doesn't change the actual URL
Just noticed that - effin hilarious!
Its simple all driving needs to be improved, not just for cyclist but for everyone.
Most days i'll be sat in my car driving too or from work because of a accident.
Self-driving cars are the only thing which will properly resolve the nastiness passed out to cyclists.
There's a road sign on our regular club route which has been put up by a blind corner saying "caution, cyclists" and someone took the trouble to stop, get out and write a the c word on it...
Mind you drivers get bullied and harassed as well - it's quite interesting driving at 30 in a 30 limit...
We just need to get people out of cars, it's not physically or mentally healthy to isolate yourself in metal box...
can i suggest NEVER read the daily mail, in fact it should be banned, the problem is that those who comment and some of those that read have there beliefs constantly reinforced.
Little things like road tax, drivers keep on with they pay for the roads, purely ignorance though, ask them why councils fix the pot holes and it goes over their heads.
Other things like reps and the attitude to "nice" cars, it is car it is a tool to do a job. Who gives a F*** if your M3 is limited to 155, the speed limit is 70mph!!!!
For a bit of perspective, I think cyclists focus on the negative encounters with motorists. It clouds our view the same as it does for motorists. Out for a ride yesterday, nothing but curtsey from everyone I met. One steep climb Iin a narrow lane had a couple of cars waiting in passing places for me to crawl past. They all gave positive response's to my wave of acknowledgement. Even had a woman pull alongside side me and give me a thumbs up after she witnessed my feeble attempt at a power climb KOM 🙁
On a positive note, get yourself the Bikeability training - usually free from your local authority. Even with 36 years of experience I learnt loads from my day. Not least looking behind you very very frequently.
a) it gives the drivers a sign you're observant
b) it humanises you - showing your face makes it harder to treat you like an object and tailgaters will pull back when you do
c) you're not surprised by the close pass - as you're more likely to see it coming and if you're primary you then have space to pull into and therefore avoid the scare.
There's more you can do than you might realise to deal with the idiot psychology of a lot of drivers...
When I used to cycle tour with my girlfriend, I found a good deliberate wobble would see drivers giving much more space than usual. Does mean staying vigilant and as above, constant backwards glances. Works every time.
There were some courteous people out today, a smile and a wave thanked them. I'm grateful for drivers like those but it doesn't make up for the bellends.
I've done the bikeability and I agree, it was useful. I've also spent several years as a motorcycle instructor teaching people similar things. Even when you take those measures, it's still bloody annoying when it happens.
Not a cycling story but when I was out for a run yesterday I was on the pavement next to a 40 limit road approaching a very large puddle that went all the way across the road. A gentleman in a well driven Volvo saw that I was going to be next to said puddle by the time he got to it so he slowed and stopped just before it to let me pass. This upset the **** in the white Audi behind him who accelerated hard so he could pass the (now stationary) Volvo as quickly as possible. I couldn't have been happier when he lost control on the water and ****ted both drivers side wheels very hard into the opposite kerb. Gave me a lovely glow for the rest if the run.
Don't take it personally, it's nothing to do with cyclists necessarily, it's just a case that there are too many tossers out there in command of a car. I see terrible and inconsiderate driving every time I'm behind the wheel of my car. You're just so much more exposed on a bike.
If the police stopped focussing on people making marginal infringements on the speed limits and focused on poor driving then we might start to see some improvement. Traveling too close to the driver in front, lack of use of indicators and general aggressive behavior to all road users are all behaviors that need to be tackled but so far are being ignored in favor of collaring some old dear creeping a few mph over the speed limit.
Two abreast when you're just holding up traffic for giggles is nobbish.
What if I'm having a chat, is that ok with you?
Have to agree with Wobbliscott.
Two abreast when you're just holding up traffic for giggles is nobbish.
What if I'm having a chat, is that ok with you?
Exactly - making assumptions about why cyclists might be riding 2 abreast or primary and instantly judging them as nobs is YOUR problem - YOUR ignorance - there may well be very good reasons for it and often are.
I remember Boris correcting Vanessa Feltz when she interviewed him after the horrible sequence of dead cyclists in November claiming that cyclists "ride 6 abreast". She was too thick,it appeared, to realise that may just be 6 people who've never met who aren't riding together, but riding at different paces and just trying to get some space to ride safely in...
We've 20 mph winds forecast tomorrow so 2-abreast is going to be pretty essential on our club ride to be able to make any progress. Besides - cyclists have been riding through and off for most of the 20th century for reasons of efficiency - there's no good reason on earth why that should stop just because cars are so prevalent now is there?
I had a chap in a Vectra estate give me as much room as he could possibly squeeze out of his side of the lane yesterday, passing me (from behind), slowly and carefully, and going right up the hedge on his side. I thanked him, he made eye-contact in his mirror, waved back and we both carried on.
Ten minutes later and an elderly woman in a 307 missed me as much by accident as anything else - she appeared oblivious to my being on the road, and only missed me by inches. For entertainment, she then also only missed oncoming traffic by inches, as she clearly had no idea of the width of her vehicle, and no real idea of how the controls worked (especially brakes and steering).
I didn't feel bad for hoping she'd have clipped (gently enough of course) the van coming towards her, as they couldn't go anywhere else (having already slowed to a crawl and gone up their side of the hedge) - other than that it might have put the guys out of work for a few days whist their van got fixed.
This kinda nonsense happens when I'm driving my truck too, so it's not just cyclists that car drivers have trouble with.
Has the driving test got easier?
On a positive note, get yourself the Bikeability training - usually free from your local authority. Even with 36 years of experience I learnt loads from my day. Not least looking behind you very very frequently.
a) it gives the drivers a sign you're observant
b) it humanises you - showing your face makes it harder to treat you like an object and tailgaters will pull back when you do
c) you're not surprised by the close pass - as you're more likely to see it coming and if you're primary you then have space to pull into and therefore avoid the scare.There's more you can do than you might realise to deal with the idiot psychology of a lot of drivers...
I should have done bikeability years ago then : ) couldn't agree more, all techniques I've learned over the years that I do think have some positive effect.
You're right on the psychology point too, I do think it's a split-second unthinking thing, anything that causes a pause or a moments rational thought in the driver works in your favour - 99.9% of people who drive badly are careless or acting and not thinking, rather than actually malicious.
I've tried chatting to non cycling friends or customers who all think we shouldn't be on the road.
A lady in the hairdressers the other day was saying how dangerous it is for people to cycle with their children to school in those chariot things. Arrgghh,no it isn't! She needs to get used to it because there are going to be more of them on the roads in the future.
As always if everyone who rides a bike anywhere for any purpose went back to using a car, every road would be blocked up.
Did she ask herself why at any point.. Some people are just too stupid to have opinions : )A lady in the hairdressers the other day was saying how dangerous it is for people to cycle with their children to school in those chariot things.
Re the looking at drivers coming up behind you . I dont think it turns you miracously into a person as opposed to a cyclist . Most people ( not all ) are not that dumb. They know its a person on a bike that is causing them to have to make a conscious input to the daily drive.
I am gradually comming to the conclusion its more ' Oh hes seen me about to do something stupid so now I won't do it '. Very much like the way a small child will creep up behind you and you have to pretend they aren't there , then they push you and run away ...ish
One day I am going to be behind someone who puts a cyclist in danger and will struggle to not put in a block pass and instruct them on the error of their ways whilst the aggreived cyclist turns up to add their veiws on the subject.
I don't believe that the majority of dangerous driving is actively dangerous - that is, the driver doesn't mean to be dangerous, it's just that most people are too daft to realise the risks that they are putting others in. Sheer unthinking stupidity.
The vast majority of drivers are doing regular routes - commutes, picking the kids up from school, going shopping. Journeys they do every day and it becomes second nature, they know (or think they know) every bit of it and they drive on autopilot. Suddenly there's something there that's not normal. Some roadworks, a cyclist, a diversion. They simply can't cope with the extra thinking required to deal with this abberation. It's why you get people arguing with police when they've closed the road to deal with a collision, they can't deal with there being something different about their journey.
That said, I'm astonished by the fact that, as Cougar says, people will patiently wait behind a horse, slow moving tractor etc but show them a cyclist and they just have to get past NOW. Immediately, no matter what the cost, no matter if there's a queue of traffic 100m ahead. 🙄
I'm struggling to see how you feel that drivers on autopilot because they feel they don't need to concentrate are not actively dangerous?
Please don't get me wrong - Personally I think as cyclists demonising drivers is not even slightly helpful although at times quite understandable.
Standards of understanding of the Road and definitely tolerance of all other users are sadly lacking in far too many road users. Cyclists, car drivers, horse riders, tractor drivers and plant operators, truck drivers - we're all guilty and slinging mud isn't a solution, improving standards is. If that means the Police get to hand out record fines for a few years, so be it. Everyone will be safer. Just so long as the safety initiative isn't milked like cameras often are - so funds should go to Central and time for safety patrols should be ringfenced and mandatory - and exempt from whatever statistical modelling of performance goes on.
The whole 'everyone could do better' thing is all well and good, but there also has to be some care given by people in half tonne metal cages to people who are not. You have to realise when you drive a car that if you hit a cyclist if someone is injured or dies as a result 99% of the time it is the cyclist. Same as riding a MTB down a bridleway, I can do more harm to walker than they can do to me, so I take care.
There is a cumulative thing going on with me at the moment. At some point I am going end up kicking out at a car as I am being passed dangerously at least every other ride. If the driver wants to stop and make something of it, then I'll stick one on them. People just will not learn.
For a bit of perspective, I think cyclists focus on the negative encounters with motorists. It clouds our view the same as it does for motorists.
This is true. I think the majority of people are great. They really understand that you need space, and go out of their way to give you it (even if it means driving round a blind bend on the wrong side of the road!) The amount of pensioners that give you no space or consideration whatsoever probably backs up the fact that attitudes have mostly improved on the roads with newer generations.
Trouble is, there's a massive difference between motor vehicles and cycles, in that one poses a very serious danger when driven in anger, and the other one is generally a very minor inconvenience at worst.
Had a funny one today myself. Approaching a T-junction. Big pick-up comes past, there was just enough room before the junction, and I was happy to let him past rather than hold anyone up, so stayed in secondary. Once he was past I moved out into the middle of the road behind him, ready to turn right (the same way he was going). Reached the junction, so he stops to give way. No traffic. I'm sat behind waiting patiently. And he waits there for about 20 seconds, until a whole bunch of traffic comes trundling along, choosing to jump out at the last possible moment, leaving me to wait for the traffic to pass. Now maybe I have a teensy weensy bit of paranoia here, but I seen his smug face peering back at me in the wing mirror as he pulled away, and I swear he did it on purpose. Trivial stuff. And I couldn't care less really. As long as people aren't trying to kill me, they can **** with me all they want. I'm cool with that. But I was a bit taken back by it!
I'm struggling to see how you feel that drivers on autopilot because they feel they don't need to concentrate are not actively dangerous?
I meant that they don't go out in their car deliberately thinking "I will be dangerous".
The point is that they are still dangerous because they are driving on autopilot but they don't mean to be. It's [b]passively[/b] dangerous and that's almost worse - they simply don't realise their actions are a problem. That's why there's still so much misunderstanding, so much anger on the roads, it's almost all based on ignorance.
Although that said, I personally see a fair bit of really considerate behaviour on my commutes. Maybe it's cos I expect all drivers to do idiotic things, I'm pleasantly surprised when they don't!
(even if it means driving round a blind bend on the wrong side of the road!)
Then they shouldn't be overtaking you. Overtaking on a blind bend? They wouldn't overtake another car on a blind bend, so why is it somehow 'honourable' when they do it to a cyclist, but don't squeeze the cyclist. They could still kill someone coming the other way!
I think you are too forgiving!
If I come off my bike riding it off-road and hurt myself I will take responsibility. I won't sue the trail builder or county council or whoever. It would be my fault and my fault alone. But I will not stand for being potentially seriously injured or killed by someone in car who cannot wait ten seconds, it really is as simple as that.
Then they shouldn't be overtaking you. Overtaking on a blind bend? They wouldn't overtake another car on a blind bend, so why is it somehow 'honourable' when they do it to a cyclist, but don't squeeze the cyclist. They could still kill someone coming the other way!I think you are too forgiving!
That comment was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek.
I meant that they don't go out in their car deliberately thinking "I will be dangerous".
I fully agree that most drivers don't set out to be dangerous but there are definitely a few who really, really *want* to hurt you. When I've been deliberately rammed or dangerously overtaken, it's almost always by blokes with their mate(s), leering and sneering. Which kind of bucks the trend of young girls being the main protaginists.
That said, I've had a fair few deliberate cut-ups then middle fingers by that demographic too.
Exactly - making assumptions about why cyclists might be riding 2 abreast or primary and instantly judging them as nobs is YOUR problem - YOUR ignorance - there may well be very good reasons for it and often are.
"Having a chat" is not a good reason, it's selfish and leads to the sort of negative attitudes from other road users that we bemoan on here on a regular basis.
Really, do you actually ride like that? I'm alright jack, bollocks to the rest of you? Take point when you need to to stop reckless overtakes, let the rest of the world get on with its business when you're blowing it out of your arse in the granny ring on a gentle incline and it's safe to allow them to pass.
Jesus, no wonder cyclists are hated.
But then again Cougar, I regularly see horseriders riding two abreast, chatting away loudly, with no observation, but drivers obediently slow to a crawl and wait for several minutes before overtaking reverentially.
Same road, but this time with cyclists, same drivers are behaving in a completely different manner.
Why is that?
Why is that?
Because your average cyclist can't kick your windscreen in like a horse can?
Why is that?
Because your average cyclist can't kick your windscreen in like a horse can?
Tempted to start doing just that.
they simply don't realise their actions are a problem.
This is very common, and I think is a major part of why the roads don't feel safe a lot of the time. Just last week I yelled at a young woman who buzzed me, less than a foot off my bars when I was doing close on 30 down a hill. I caught up with her at the lights (so no need for the overtake at all) and fully expected defensive ranty road-tax bullshit, but she was very apologetic and clearly hadn't a clue that she'd done anything stupid. Many people simply have no idea what it's like having several tons of metal whizz past inches away from you at speed.
Really, do you actually ride like that? I'm alright jack, bollocks to the rest of you?
No absolutely not - that's the point I'm making - people are judging cyclists and putting them in danger because they ASSUME, just as you've done, that there's some kind of deliberate 'sod you' attitude.
This is how club riding works:
You ride together for social reasons
You ride two up for increased visibility for vehicles (safer for the driver and for the cyclists) and because it's most efficient in the wind.
(Dulwich Paragon, one of my clubs, was formed in 1935 - before cars were in mass usage and before most of today's drivers were born... so 2-abreast certainly was not invented as some kind of 'sod you' to drivers!
So we ride along quite happily down quiet country lanes with no traffic in either direction - legal, safe and social...
A car comes up behind. People at the back shout 'single out' if they think the road's wide enough for the car to overtake. No point singling out if it's not (that's a safety issue, not a 'sod you')
For a group of any size 8/12+ this process will take a few minutes whilst we all change pace so we can slot in behind one another without taking anyone out (which would be a danger for the riders and the driver)...
In the meantime the driver will have had to slow down.
Most drivers in my experience are ok with this. Some aren't. Some, like you, make assumptions that we're playing childish games, when in fact most of the time we're mature adults, trying to show some consideration, whilst keeping safe.
But it's bloody hard sometimes to keep calm when people start judging us when they themselves are utterly ignorant about cycling, safety and best practice.
So please try and think before you start judging...
Apples and oranges.
So we ride along quite happily down quiet country lanes with no traffic in either direction - legal, safe and social...
A car comes up behind. People at the back shout 'single out'
There's a world of difference between this and two people riding two-abreast holding up traffic for miles for no good reason. You [i]are [/i]moving to let people past when required, some don't.
(You know I ride a bike occasionally, yes?)
Moreover,
Over the years I've used the roads as a cyclist, a motorist, a motorcycle rider, and a pedestrian. Whichever my chosen mode of transport that day, I try not to be an arseache to everyone else. I fail to see why this is such a difficult concept for so many people. (And I don't mean people here, I mean generally.)
(You know I ride a bike occasionally, yes?)
This is the lame excuse a lot of poor car drivers use when they have done something wrong or don't understand how traffic law has changed since they passed their test. It does them no favours.
For a group of any size 8/12+ this process will take a few minutes whilst we all change pace so we can slot in behind one another without taking anyone out (which would be a danger for the riders and the driver)...
Really ?... I mean a few minutes.. a few seconds for a group riding to BC recomendations with a tail gunner calling ' car back ' and the pack sorting itself out . I reckon 30 secs maximum.
I dont know what you guys do but i have only encountered rude/bad drivers twice. maybe i dont ride enough 20 mile commute 3 times a week and genraly another big road ride at least once a week.
Last week however my gear box failed on my car, it stuck in first gear and wouldnt move, Unfortunatly i was setting of from a trafficlight and was stuck In an ASL not one or two but 3 cyclists shouted abuse at meand not a single one stopped to see if i needed help, every car that passed gave me plenty of room and some even offered help.
I genraly have a good opinion of cyclists and not fused by motorists but thisday really made me question whether people do dislike cyclists or whether we make a bigger deal out of small incidents.
Really ?... I mean a few minutes.. a few seconds for a group riding to BC recomendations with a tail gunner calling ' car back ' and the pack sorting itself out . I reckon 30 secs maximum.
Ideally, yes. We have a lot of new riders in the clubs I ride in and not all are listening out for the shouts or confident enough to move quickly which can make things slower. Plus the groups are getting larger - we're starting to split them now to make them easier to manage...
as a cyclist I hate drivers and as a driver I hate cyclists. however no matter whether riding a bike or driving a car I always make room for the other, even in the case of overtaking cyclists if it means slowing right down because of blind bend or hidden dip coming up. I normally hug the gutter as a cyclist but know fellow riders who take the view that sticking the bike halfway between gutter and white lines means cars are less likely to take risks overtaking which actually make sense. it's all about balance, but there will always be a minority on both sides that will drive and cycle like idiots. with cycling becoming more and more popular like running is I think a govt tv campaign like they did in the 80's reminding road users about road etiquette would be a good as people do over time forget their Highway Code etc
There's a world of difference between this and two people riding two-abreast holding up traffic for miles for no good reason. You are moving to let people past when required, [b]some don't[/b].
In over 15 years of daily driving, I'm yet to see this. I'm sure it does happen, occasionally. But is it really the problem it's made out to be? Or is it just exaggerated by those who, as brooess points out, [i]always[/i] assume that a cyclist is being discourteous by riding two-abreast (even in those cases when traffic can easily pass)?
This is the lame excuse a lot of poor car drivers use
"Occasionally" was tongue in cheek, given where I'm posting this I thought that might be obvious.
In over 15 years of daily driving, I'm yet to see this. I'm sure it does happen, occasionally. But is it really the problem it's made out to be?
It's much more common out in the sticks than in urban areas, but then, I rarely see cyclists round town in packs greater than "one" so it's unlikely to occur. It's not a huge problem generally for exactly that reason, it just happens to be what we're discussing at the moment.
(And, if we're playing "how long we've been driving daily" Top Trumps, I win.)
You know, I'm half tempted to move this discussion to the Chat forum, it's far better suited over there...
It's much more common out in the sticks than in urban areas...
I live out in the sticks.
"Having a chat" is not a good reason,
Mmmm..yes it is, and you may be the self appointed queen around here but that means nothing in the real world. If a couple of cyclist feel they have good reason to ride side by side then they have the right.
Bell ends like you may not like it, tough what are you going to do, run into them?
Good point.
I'll go and have a picnic in the middle lane of the M6 tomorrow.
(also, with my Moderator hat on, please don't sling personal insults around.)