[Closed] Ebikes, the future and the second-hand market

I think the cost of spares will come down along with the availability of the bikes on the market as pattern parts also start to get produced. Most of these bikes use similar motors so the risk is actually not much greater than buying a carbon frame that's been stressed weirdly by someone or a bike with some forks that haven't been serviced and go pop on first use.

Batteries seem to be £500-600 which yes, is a chunk of a risk on purchase.

It's the same issue faced by any new "niche". Fatbikes were the same a few years ago. Different standards and limited production runs mean inflated prices. Once a certain momentum builds up, parts become a bit more standardised, more available and prices reduce. Early adopters do so at the risk of losing out substantially in resale as newer models flood the market, eating residuals. So, they either bite the bullet or hang on to their purchases a bit longer.  Meanwhile,new buyers reap the reward.

I'm sure they'll come up for sale in larger numbers as new stuff comes out.

Maybe they'll put an e-bike category in the 'new' classifieds 😉

There are basically two motor units  the shimano and the bosch.  I suspect these will end up on the second hand market a well either as part of a knackered bike or as a motor unit.  so if you buy a decent condition bike and the motor fails you should be able to get another motor unit even if it means buying a complete cheap bike

the real issue is batteries as they do degrade over their lifetime and will remain expensive - but there will develop a service market in replacing duff cells in borked batteries.

Replacing battery cells should be pretty easy. Just a question of any software that needs resetting.

Motor units are pretty simple really. Have seen Shimano and Bosch units available from a dutch online place. Price wasnt too bad tbh.

I would hope the battery situation will be like electric cars were you can actually see the condition of the battery on the bike display. Try and do that with an IC engine when car buying!

The condition of motors will be harder to check but that is where a test ride comes in I guess.

the real issue is batteries as they do degrade over their lifetime and will remain expensive

They claim hundreds of charge cycles (Bosch guarantee them for 500 but say 1000 should be easily possible) before the capacity drops to maybe 80%. I suspect that apart from a very few that probably means they'll never degrade within the life of the bike they're attached to.

a) how many people will go out for a bike ride every day, for three years.

b) how many e-bikers will make very ride as close to the full range as possible (bearing in mind range anxiety on a 45lb bike).

How many e-bike will do 40,000-50,000 miles?

There are at least 4 motors;

Bosch, which has known bearing issues.

Brose/Specialized, which has known issues, belt failure for one.

Shimano, bearing issues.

Yamaha/Giant, probably not immune to issues but I haven’t looked at them too closely.

AFAIK, motors are available service exchange from all manufacturers, but they aren’t cheap.

Batteries are an outright purchase, again not cheap, but recelling is an option.

Who says motors aren’t cheap - I’ve had 2 free of charge (Bosch xc performance) and no quibbles now - I would say the ebike companies have this warranty thing licked - far superior to the likes of other warranty processes where you spend weeks arguing...

I think people will be quite surprised at how much a 4-5k eMTB will lose in value over 2+ years, especially if suspension bearings, shock, dropper post, forks, drivetrain, motor and battery all need servicing or replacing.

It's 'interesting' I suppose, but I think there's a lot of worry around new tech like this, but the reality is usually more boring.

How long do we expect bikes to last these days? 5 years, 7 years, 10 years? I know there will always be someone heading into battle on something older than half of the riders on a typical WC podium, but they're the exception rather than the norm.

When Hybrid Cars and Electric Cars first arrived there were the usual horror stories about batteries dying after 3 years and costing more than the car was worth, but in reality they don't. They typically lose 20-30% of their capacity in the first 3-5 years / 30k miles and then it levels out. E-Bikes are far less likely to be used as much as EVs, certainly not MTB E-Bikes.

Who says motors aren’t cheap – I’ve had 2 free of charge (Bosch xc performance) and no quibbles now – I would say the ebike companies have this warranty thing licked – far superior to the likes of other warranty processes where you spend weeks arguing…

And that'll apply to the second or third owner a few years down the line?

Two dead motors makes me feel that buying second hand would be a terrible idea unless really cheap.

As of July 2018 all spesh bikes including e-bikes warranty is transferable for the first two years from date of original purchase, this includes motors and batteries

Taken directly from their website

If you're the second, or later, owner of a Specialized or Roval product, you are eligible for a two-year warranty from the date of the original retail purchase.

More info here https://www.specialized.com/gb/en/warranty

Lapierre is a 5 year warranty but sadly not transferable.

However there are people starting to do aftermarket rebuilds now - I think there was a vid on another thread - from recollection costs were something like 120 for service to 250 for full monty rebuild (could be wrong but deffo no more than that)...

one local LBS chain tells me their sales are 50/50 normal vs e-bikes

i've been on the fence for a while, leaning to the "its for lazy people and posers" i'd consider one for long days out in locations that i dont know to learn my way around.  after my experiences this weekend at a "trail desination". **** e-bikes. as a normal rider on undulating single width trails where you have to climb you get caught time and again e-bikers tailgating you on climbs . in the wilderness, it doesnt matter so much, but in that environment it was annoying.

i think cost an the stigma will stop them 'taking over', but als there will be a lot that dont get much use leading to a healthy secondhand market, with peple trying to flog their 'only used 3 times' bikes.

people who wont ride a normal mtb still wont ride an e-mtb.. how long it takes them to twig?

its a shame advertising money is forcing proper bike media to promote them

As of July 2018 all spesh bikes including e-bikes warranty is transferable for the first two years from date of original purchase, this includes motors and batteries

For clarity, that's for bikes purchased after that date.

I don't know the warranty on my Trek is transferable, but if I did sell it I'd help out the new owner if possible.

Unfortunately I think they are fairly short term disposable bikes with a  £1500 to £2000 buy in premium and very lean non confidence inspiring  warranty for it  (2 years for most) on the expensive motor and battery.Hopefully there will indeed be cheaper aftermarket services to rebuild/fix motors,controllers  and batteries but until then it's surely a high risk venture  buying anything out of warranty .

I suspect that one way or another eBike owners are going to end up spending a lot more on their hobby than riders of non-e (or whatever we are supposed to call them) bikes. That may be partly why manufacturers are so keen on them of course, but either way it's probably true and yes, I suspect depreciation may be a bit higher. The next push seems to be the "£3K eMTB" , which isn't going to help those who dropped £5-£8K on earlier models either.

tbh i looked at this.

the bikes arnt that expensive for the kit you get. Its a high end MTB after all.

the worry i have is i dont know of a single owner that hasnt had to use the warranty. Look at the stick your BB gets then pop that in a motor with a lot more torque and unless ts easily serviceable its going to have issues.

I think they are great. But they are spoiling trail centers etc.

I suspect that one way or another eBike owners are going to end up spending a lot more on their hobby than riders of non-e (or whatever we are supposed to call them) bikes.

Agreed, this is one of the reasons I haven’t gone for an E mountain bike, as that is purely a hobby.

My ebike is used for commuting and saves me at least £120/month in Train/Car costs. So as a mode of transport, the additional costs make sense for me. As a pure hobby/fun bike, at the moment they don’t.

the bikes arnt that expensive for the kit you get. Its a high end MTB after all.

I agree with this I have two none ebikes with similar kit on to my ebike.

The ebike was the cheapest of the three.

they are spoiling trail centers

No idea as I don't go to trail centers very often and if I did it'd be on a group ride so I'd ride a none ebike.

I suspect depreciation may be a bit higher.

Do people really care about this when buying a new bike though?

I mean [b]really[/b] care enough to not buy a bike that they wanted?

I suspect that one way or another eBike owners are going to end up spending a lot more on their hobby than riders of non-e (or whatever we are supposed to call them) bikes.

I assume a significant amount of e-mountain-bike riders are the same people who bought bikes with XTR, hope brakes and pace forks in years gone by. At anything over about £2k (and especially over £3k) you can swap some of the bling bits for more functional stuff, save more than the cost of the motor and battery, and gain far more speed than those few grammes ever did.

And when you add up the cost of replacing XTR like for like for a few years it probably adds up far more than an e-bike!

You have an added layer of complexity with e bikes.

I suspect buying a second hand one will have the potential to be a very costly exercise should things go wrong.

We can all check for knackered BB's, wheel bearings etc... But potential poor battery life (don't believe any apps out there), imminent motor issues and intermittent electrical/electronic faults..... Sooner you than me.

Bikes just got a LOT more complex.

Think of being a home mechanics in the 80's compared  opening the bonnet on a new car now and peering inside.

We can all check for knackered BB’s, wheel bearings etc… But potential poor battery life (don’t believe any apps out there), imminent motor issues and intermittent electrical/electronic faults…..

The Spech app gives a rundown of the motors health how far it's been and how many charge cycles it has left.

I have no reason to not believe the results it gives as it seems to tie in with the results my Garmin has recorded.

Think of being a home mechanics in the 80’s compared  opening the bonnet on a new car now and peering inside.

.... which doesn’t seem to have slowed down the sale of new cars, or people willing to buy them second hand after a couple of years?

The Spech app gives a rundown of the motors health how far it’s been and how many charge cycles it has left.

That's a prediction based on knowns. Mileage, charge cycles etc.

It takes no account of unknowns. Type of riding, exposure to the elements level of care and maintenance.

Given that you cannot ascertain these things relatively easily like you can on a non e bike then it's a potentially expensive lottery.

I have an electronics/electrical background and I would think long and hard before buying a second hand e bike.

Its just a different level of complexity. One of the intrinsic beauties of a human powered bike is the simplicity. Suspension adds some but even then, its mechanical and you aren't (in the main) dealing with unites not designed to be user serviceable.

I don't see that changing anytime soon. If motors and batteries come down significantly (hugely) in price then that might change, along with a more modular/servicable approach to design. That won't be for a very long time in my opinion though.

I'm not being anti e bike by the way. It's just a clear part of the equation of buying a used e bike or even a new one if you intend holding into it for an extended period.

…. which doesn’t seem to have slowed down the sale of new cars, or people willing to buy them second hand after a couple of years?

Steady on champ, I'm not being anti e bike. Don't be so defensive. If you search, you will see I've never made a negative post relating to e Bikes.

They are however not the Holy Grail, just like everything in life they have negatives as well as positives.

As long as you are aware of them and allow for them in potential purchases then that's fine.

Its a drastic simplification to simply dismiss reality as inconsequential though.

As they (e Bikes) exist at this point of time you would be buying a second hand e bike that has the potential to carry a substantial repair cost with it if you are unlucky with the purchase. If you are prepared for that potential then it's all good.

I’m not being anti e bike by the way

I didn't think for one minute you were.

That’s a prediction based on knowns.

Which is as good or better than you'll get with any second hand bike.

I'd not even buy a secondhand none ebike unless I'd know the owner TBH.

Which is as good or better than you’ll get with any second hand bike.

But with an extra layer of potential cost if you buy a pony. A substantial one at that. With far less ability to save money vis second hand/ DIY methods.

I’d not even buy a secondhand none ebike unless I’d know the owner TBH.

Not bought a brand new bike for many years, all from here or eBay/gumtree. but I'm not too bad with a spanner and some suspension jobs aside,I do all my own maintenance with the help help of this forum, YouTube and ready availability of new and used spares.

That's not to invalidate the buying from a friend option though as I would rate that higher than app produced metrics on the electronics of an e bike and gives you a great idea of the mechanical worthiness too.👍

I’m ebike curious and demod a couple recently, having looked into the variety of options I came to the conclusion that manafacturer / dealer support would be vital for me. The mfrs seem to be very good with warranty claims on the motor/battery, so much so that I get the impression that they réalise that without it they would struggle to sell new bikes . I looked at a fair few S/h options (lots available, esp Spesh as people trade up to 2019 levos) but was put off by the large number being sold with ‘new motor fitted under warranty’ . I’d either go for a cheaper unit like a vitus or stump up for a spesh and enjoy the dealer support. For the mo I’d probably avoid 2nd hand.

Steady on champ, I’m not being anti e bike. Don’t be so defensive. If you search, you will see I’ve never made a negative post relating to e Bikes.

And I am not suggesting that you are. Just saying that increased complexity doesn’t put people off buying new and used cars, as it becomes the new “normal”

ebikes will become the same eventually. Not currently (for me at least) as I said earlier, which is why I use an ebike for transport rather than for “fun/hobby” riding, as currently that would be too much of a financial outlay/risk.

I suspect an awful lot of these are being bought as " the new golf" and we may well see a glut of them on the market over the next couple of years.  I also so depreciation as being very high

And don't forget the road tax, insurance and MOT when they are eventually properly regulated. 😉

And I am not suggesting that you are. Just saying that increased complexity doesn’t put people off buying new and used cars, as it becomes the new “normal”

For most used cars there are many options for spares.

Pattern parts.

New parts from specialist retailers selling below retail.

Second hand parts from cars being broken.

Reconditioned parts.

Do any of the above exist in any notable quantity for e Bikes both today or in the forseeable?

Hard to predict the future but I doubt many cost effective options such as the above will be around for some time.

Do any of the above exist in any notable quantity for e Bikes both today or in the forseeable?

steady on champ, don’t be so defensive 👍

As I’ve already said (twice) Ebikes are (for me) a mode of transport rather than a hobby, although that is not the case for the majority of ebike buyers.

due to the increased cost/risk it too expensive as a hobby for me, or too much of a risk at least. That will change in time I’m sure.

Defensive by stating a fact as I see it? Sorry if it came across that way, not my intention mate. Not being sarcastic by the way!

If the statement you quote is incorrect then I would genuinely like to know. Most importantly the op would as it relates to this thread directly.👍

The parts that hang off the bikes still have a value. Many e-bikes are afterall high end top spec bikes. I don't think the motor and battery have a value second hand as the warranty is only 2 years (great confidence in a product).

I think that if you had the top spec specialized enduro and the top spec levo. The enduro would be worth more and be easier to sell because of the lack of battery. Untill you get a lifetime warranty thats transferrable on the battery and motor. The second hand market will not be there for e-bikes imo.

Get back under your canal bridge rydflat.

Not bought a brand new bike for many years, all from here or eBay/gumtree. but I’m not too bad with a spanner and some suspension jobs aside,I do all my own maintenance with the help help of this forum

You could just as easily bought a bike with  a creaky or worn below the seals CSU or an internally damaged shock that'd cost as much to replace as a battery.

I'll just chop mine in when I want to swap it for a new one.

I don't buy bikes because they'll have a high resale value I buy them because that's what I want to ride.

But as ever we're all different.🙂

I don’t buy bikes because they’ll have a high resale value I buy them because that’s what I want to ride.

True but if I can't afford a new one and the second-hand ones available are too risky to buy then I guess I won't be having one at all and the person who dropped 5k on one a couple of years ago might struggle getting rid and raising funds for an upgrade.....maybe.. 🤔

You could just as easily bought a bike with  a creaky or worn below the seals CSU or an internally damaged shock that’d cost as much to replace as a battery.

I could..... but if it was a second hand e bike it could also have a faulty battery, control electronics and or motor. It is an extra layer of complexity no matter how you paint it.

If cost is of no concern to you then its a moot point as you would but a new e bike. However, that is not relevant to what the op is asking?

The only way I can see second hand working in the short term is if one of the ebike specialist shops were to offer, say, a 1 year warranty on motor, battery and electrics...

"Bikes just got a LOT more complex."

No they didn't. A bike is still a bike.

An e-bike / e-mtb is a different thing.

They are motorised / motor assisted. They are motor-bikes / mopeds just just a lot more accessible.via the 'pedal-assist' loophole.

I don't believe that pedal assist will ever be licenced. Just power capped. (and it's about to go up right?)

But, there is no denying they ARE motorised vehicles and should not be allowed in places where mopeds / motorbikes / cars aren't allowed. (Like Somerset which banned greenlaning / motorbikes off-road a good few years back)

But, there is [b]no denying [/b]they ARE motorised vehicles and should not be allowed in places where mopeds / motorbikes / cars aren’t allowed.

So you mean there’s “no denying” it...

...Apart from all the laws, rules and regulation that say the opposite, obviously ?

they don't say the opposite. legal classification/EAPC type approval is a different matter.

a bike with an electric motor is a motorised vehicle. factually., but not legally (yet).

“Bikes just got a LOT more complex.”

No they didn’t. A bike is still a bike.

An e-bike / e-mtb is a different thing.

If you can list the components of an non e bike with a similar spec, like for like, e-bike and tell me the list is shorter for the e bike I'll post on here saying I am incorrect in my assertion.

Your point about them being different is moot anyway. Of course they are. That is my point, an e-bike is a far more complex mechanism being part mechanical, part electronic/electric.

As for it not being a bike anymore, you better run that past trail centres and other e bike riders as I think you will find they still say they are a bike...

Till then, are you even serious bud??....

But, there is no denying they ARE motorised vehicles and should not be allowed in places where mopeds / motorbikes / cars aren’t allowed. (Like Somerset which banned greenlaning / motorbikes off-road a good few years back)

Those green laners were riding legally on roads, just because it isn’t covered in tarmac, doesn’t mean it’s not a road.

The red sock brigade have a very large budget and lots of political connections so they use that to have roads reclassified down to footpaths & bridleways, but preferably footpaths. Because sometimes 95% use of the trail network that trail bikes can’t go on just isn’t enough.

yup. but now banned all the same.

Poopscoop you miss the point.

a bicycle is a bike.

a ebike is an bike.

ebike is not equal to bicycle. and yes, is more complex, with many shared components with a bicycle.

obviously differences motor, battery, ECU  / display

complexity/components wise. ebike > bicycle.

an ebike is more like a bicycle than a motorbike, but is still not a bicycle.

it has a motor. just not fossil fueled.

Except for BB/crank ALL components are still the same though.

Obviously the BB is replaced by a motor drive system a controller wheel sensors and a battery are the only real differences. None of which are user serviceable during the warranty period.
Break something and the choice is replace it or claim warranty.
Yes they're more complex but to maintain they're not really much extra bother at all. (Within warranty period)

Decent S/H Emtbs hold their value way better than S/H regular bikes of similar spec level.
I personally find this mental.
I wouldn't buy a S/H Ebike at all though.

an ebike is more like a bike than a motorbike, but is still [s]not[/s] a bike.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Bike+definition

har.

they hold value because they're rare right now.

i'd probably not touch one S/H given the price of things like batteries. but as I mentioned before. there are likely to be a lot of e-bikes sat barely used in garages that people come to sell in a few years. a bit like fat bikes and golf clubs, however with e-bikes there are more types of bike and a bigger target market across all types. and more compatibility/shared components with things like plus bikes etc. at least if a motor/battery dies you can swap wheelsets, drive train etc to another eMTB or normal MTB

might be worth re-reading my original post (with many typing flaws as I was rushing out of the office) to see where i stand, before jumping on latest comments at face value.

Oi! Keep that arguing about definition carp in the ebike rant thread!

Inevitable I suppose...

I wasn't arguing.

I was correcting the wrong!

Canopy, you are so far removed from the purpose of this thread.... and the reasons I replied to it, regarding and relating to the op's topic, that I just don't know how to reply to you mate??

You seem to be having an existential crisis over what an e-bike is and I can't help you there!

The thread is actually an interesting topic which will be even more relevant over the years to come as e-bikes become ever more popular. You seem to be going off on tangents that merit their own thread perhaps?

I echo what others have said, bit of a gamble going for a 2nd hand E-bike which will likely have no warranty and not a wide range of places which could refurb the motor parts. I dont get some of the other comments in this thread though:

as a normal rider on undulating single width trails where you have to climb you get caught time and again e-bikers tailgating you on climbs

I ride a lot and am because of this quite fit, I catch people up all the time on hills or sometimes the downs, this is not a new situation IMO

But they are spoiling trail centers etc

How? The catching people up part I mention above? I'm sure people enjoying their weekly cruise around a trail centre love hearing the enduro brigade come up behind them at speed or crossing the official trail on a piece of offpiste trail? or schwalping berms for sick edits? or maybe the lack of etiquette which all new riders need to learn and even some non ebikers still dont get?

I suspect an awful lot of these are being bought as ” the new golf” and we may well see a glut of them on the market over the next couple of years

I haven't seen it down here in the SW, the two guys I know who picked them up to get back into riding and ride with people they know who never stopped. It's never nice being the waited for person at the top of a hill or being the people that are waiting!

Just my two cents, haters have to hate on something!

I ride a lot and am because of this quite fit, I catch people up all the time on hills or sometimes the downs, this is not a new situation IMO

its a bit different when its a normal rider and a couple ebikers on singletrack ascents. fortunately i dont do most of my riding in that env.

OP my last reply is directly about the topic / s/h market and your origiinal question.

yes there willl be more S/h when more people have actually boiught them. yes nature dictates that some of those purchasers bought them thinking they'd ride more because its easier (but if youre lazy shit it wont change that, you still have to leave the house..). yes people will be wary of buying old bikes because of the batteries, and electrics.

My experiences selling, hiring and maintaining them would put me off any 2nd hand purchase. I'd want the longest possible warranty - from the most reputable manufacturer and retailer.

there are likely to be a lot of e-bikes sat barely used in garages that people come to sell in a few years.

Is that because ebikers are actually SO lazy they can’t even be arsed to ride ebikes ?!

It’s worse than I though 😳

Is that because ebikers are actually SO lazy they can’t even be arsed to ride ebikes ?!

Depends on the type of person buying one. If your already a mtb'er and you fancy one as a N+1 then no. But if your someone who struggles with motivation then very possibly.  Sometimes actually getting out of the house in the first place is the toughest part of a ride, even for me !

The government will put a tax on them all eventually. Mark my words.

Is that because ebikers are actually SO lazy they can’t even be arsed to ride ebikes ?!

It’s worse than I though 😳

Non-assisted electric bikes will be the next thing they are buying! 😀

The government will put a tax on them all eventually. Mark my words.

3/10 for effort

Too generous colp 🙄

The government will put a tax on them all eventually. Mark my words.

They already do it’s called VAT!

Adding value isn’t a concept rydster is familiar with.

I think the market for 2nd hand ebikes could help the LBS. People afraid of buying one privately might be happier going to a shop for a warranty (I think someone mentioned this). A motor unit isnt hard to strip down and rebuild, it' not like we going to ask an LBS mechanic to replace individual electronic components - they will either replace an obvious internal part - gears, whole circuit board etc or just swap out the motor with a refurb specialist or the OEM.

It will be a bit more like car ownership for some people. Some people see their cars as hobbies and cherished possessions and love driving. Some people see cars as a means of transport. You also see this with high end mountain bikes, some people wont bat an eyelid to popping out to a bike shop and spending £5k on a high end bike (not ebike), they just want to ride it, they dont care what gears it has or what wheels it has. They probably chose it as it has Fox forks and shock without knowing anything about the alternatives. They wont have any desire to do anything other than ride that bike and then it will sit in the garage when they get bored of it. That is very much what I see as the ebike market and they will be the ones that potentially keep the LBS alive and trade in, trade up etc unlike "enthusiasts" who want to tinker and know everything about their bikes...and then probably buy bits online as they are cheaper....

One thing that would be good is to standardise on the frame mountings but that is probably never going to happen as the manufacturers are still very much competing trying to get the smallest, lightest etc unit. At some point it would be nice to have a standard frame shape you could swap for any motor unit and a standard battery connector. The integrated vs discrete battery problem will still exist.

Hmm that's like saying fuel duty isn't an additional tax.

Just out of interest how many people do you know who regularly MTB on 5 grand bikes who can't pump a tyre up? I don't mean people who buy a bike as a costly fad and use it a handful of times and get bored of it.

Granted I've not done much cycling for a few years but back in the day the only fully mechanically ignorant I knew who cycled was the gf of one my mates.

As for e-bikes a DC motor is a very simple piece of kit and along with speed controller/electronics should work long after the bike is obsolete IMHO. If the LBS needs to change the motor out every 6 months then we have a design problem.

I know a 60 yr old 20 stone man who has a £6k carbon Specialized Enduro he's only ever cycled half a mile to the local school and back with his son. His pretty young wife pumps up the tyres for him

Pretty much living the dream don't you think?

CBA to find out what your point is/was/ever will be

I've only got a year warranty on my bafang, but I've had a look at tear down videos, doesn't really look all that complex tbh. If it breaks, longs as I can get parts, I'll keep it running.

As for the battery, I doubt it'll completely drain, it will lose some capacity as time goes but it tells you how many charge cycles etc, so this is something you can judge.

I'd imagine as time goes on and the 2nd market for dedicated ebikes expands, which it obviously will. Youtube will be littered with how to strip down videos, and a replacement parts sector will appear(there's just too many getting sold now for this not to happen).

It's most likely my only route to a dedicated £3/4k ebike (about 1 to 1.5k is my limit on bike spending eveyr 5 years or so), buy a broken one, fix it. So bring on the 2nd hand market! 😆

I'm not getting an Ebike until they come down in price substantially.

1) It costs £5k (or more) for a decent one, and in two years, how much is it going to be worth ?

2) A full suspension mountain bike with a dropper post is already requires very frequent maintenance. At least with regular and heavy use on rough terrain. The maintenance of an E-bike sounds a complete nightmare. With the added 3 things that can go wrong (Motor, Battery and Controls) on top of everything else. Not to mention the higher stress components will be under due to the higher average speed and weight.

3) On turbo mode a decent EMTB will only last about 15 miles until the battery is drained, on hilly moderate trail like CYB. On Eco mode you could get about 25 to 30 miles out of it, but then is it worth spending all that money just to ride on Eco all the time ?

4) Cleaning. You can't just spray one with a hose pipe or it will damage the electric equipment (controls, motor and battery). So that means if it's muddy weather it's going to be hard to clean because you can't use a hose.

If people can refurb Teslas and get them running with zero manufacturer support (and in fact having as many walls put up as possible) then an ebike will be a piece of piss. Batteries are fairly easy to maintain, motors haven't changed much in the last century and the controllers will be rolling off a far eastern production line. I dare say someone will be working on an RPi/Arduino solution right now if they haven't already.

4) Cleaning. You can’t just spray one with a hose pipe or it will damage the electric equipment (controls, motor and battery). So that means if it’s muddy weather it’s going to be hard to clean because you can’t use a hose.

Presumably that means you can't use them in the rain either? Or near puddles.

Here we go again

1. Taking just one example: 2019 Canyon NEURON:ON 5.0... not far off the performance of the base (£4k) Levo. in other ways outperforming it for just £2999. for £400 more you get the fox suspended NEURON 6.0 which is arguably better spec'd than the £5k Levo. you'd struggle to get many regular bikes spec'd as well as the 5.0 for much less
similarly look at Commie, Vitus etc if descending is more your thing. or discounted 2018 bikes

2. Sees the mechanic? Really? You've been a regular on here for long enough to have picked up the gist of how bikes work. buy a few tools and learn some basic maintenance skills. There's really nothing much else to maintain than a regular full sus mtb. and thereis no HIGH STRESS unless you're a muppet who constantly changes gear under load.

3. Range is rider dependent. weight/riding style/gradient ridden. Forget about mileage. Assuming you're not mega heavy you'll get 3000-4500ft of climbing out of a full battery in boost. Varying by gradient surface climbed
Trail a little more but not massively.
Eco a bit more again. absolute Min 4500 IME
Generally on the flat you don't burn anywhere near as much battery so that Ascent figure translates fairly well to anything from a mega steep 10miles or a much more mellow 25. Local from the door riding round here is fairly flat and 40miles is easily doable on one charge.(2000ft ish flat)
If you're pissed off CYB (never been, sorry) will be over too quickly or you'll run out of battery. It's not going to ruin your ride unless you're knackered. just keep riding it after the battery is done or ride back to the car/van and take your regular bike out for a bit longer.

4. Mine is stored indoors so has been cleaned properly around 100 times with hot soapy water and a hot water hose and more than a few times with OMG!!11!! a Jetwash111! Each wash has never taken longer than 10 minutes, exactly the same time (and exactly the same cleaning routine) as my non-Ebikes.

WhoTF buys bikes thinking about resale value? Buy it, ride it as it's meant to be ridden and enjoy the thing. Whatever you get for it a few years down the line (even if it's pennies) was worth every penny.

Preferring descending to climbing and never having been shy of pushing up or uplift  I've never understood the "cyclist fear" of an Ebike. so I'd been thinking I'd eventually get one for quite a few years. always eager to ask questions if I ever met someone out riding one. but was also waiting until they finally got down to a reasonable weight, price and range and had good suspension and gravity orientated geometry  They'e at that point now and have been for at least a full product year. They are only going to get better but the newer breed of far lighter Ebikes coming in the next year or so will be more expensive with less range. So why put it off if you actually want one?

Except for BB/crank ALL components are still the same though

Not strictly always true, upspecced ‘ebike specific’ parts are becoming commonplace sacrificing some weight for greater strength.

I know places like MTBbatteries are looking into the idea of recelling commercially. Without seeing the inside of typical ebike batteries I wouldn’t want to commit, but if they’re essentially a tube full of 18650’s or whatever soldered together then I’d definitely rather pay someone with a capacitative welder to assemble it than risk blowing the pack up in my face. I can’t see manufacturers using diy friendly battery boxes by default.

I’ve heard stories of motor replacement.  What is it that’s actually going? Brushes or the like that should be replaceable or something to do with the pedelec assistance?  Totally agree, DC motors shouldn’t be burning up so fast so is it actually about a lack of LBS motor rebuilding skills or something more fundamental in the design?

The "stress" on the frame/components is surely going to be higher than a normal bike due to the increased speed.

I’ve never understood the “cyclist fear” of an Ebike

The fear is the amount of money they cost. Or at least, that's my fear about them. When investing £5k+ I've got to be sure its going to be right.

I'm sure I'll end up with one anyway just not sure when

Not strictly always true, upspecced ‘ebike specific’ parts are becoming commonplace sacrificing some weight for greater strength.

Yeah. but that's just a load of marketing bollocks to sell stuff to the gullible. If you need strong Enduro/DH/jump bike parts on your reglar bike that's what you'll need on your Ebike, if you are fine with lighter trail/XC parts that's all you'll need on your Ebike (of similar travel, purpose). Ebikes are going to be big. there are companies coining in on Ebike lubes, bike wash, chains, cassettes, saddles etc. When in reality all the products already available are perfectly suitable for all your bikes.

The “stress” on the frame/components is surely going to be higher than a normal bike due to the increased speed.

What increased speed? They don't decend any faster, and that's where any extra stress would be seen. not climbing. On the flat a restricted bike is slightly slower than a non-assisted bike.

The fear is the amount of money they cost. Or at least, that’s my fear about them.

Refreshing to hear. There is definitely a load of irrational fear around

When investing £5k+ I’ve got to be sure its going to be right.

I've just shown you you don't need to spend £5k or anywhere near it. No bike you're going to ride off-road is ever going to be an investment so get that notion out of your head straight away. It's a luxury item and like any other bike a toy. (plenty folk dress them up as sporting equipment, yet all the sportsmen I can think of generally get paid to play their sport)

I've had one motor replaced so far. Shimano and it was the main BB bearings (creaking and developed play). Eventually i see us being able to service these. but for now it's back to Shimano for a brand new motor.
Bosch/Brose have different issues

As for batteries .They're also warrantied for 2 years and after that I can get a Genuine Shimano 504W battery for £380 so don't see the need to find someone to Re-Cell mine unless it was a professional warrantied job and considerably cheaper.

4) Cleaning. You can’t just spray one with a hose pipe or it will damage the electric equipment (controls, motor and battery). So that means if it’s muddy weather it’s going to be hard to clean because you can’t use a hose.

Hahahaha 😂 ffs

who told you that?! And why on earth did you believe them 🙄

I’ve just shown you you don’t need to spend £5k or anywhere near it.

Well even your cheap examples above at £3000+ are not chump change. When you think you can get a 2017 model something or other for £1500 it's still double the outlay. Sure, i get that bikes are expensive if you want them to be. But basically looking at specs of equivalent Eebs and standard bikes, the Eeb is double the cost for the same specs.

It may not matter to many/some/everyone, but it certainly matters to many of us.

the Eeb is double the cost for the same specs.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stu-b/28220794827/in/dateposted/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stu-b/29888684157/in/dateposted/

The top one cost me less than the bottom one

Pretty similar spec on these two.

Deals are available...

LOL you've picked one of the most expensive frames on the market.