[Closed] Ebike, would you buy a hard Tail?

i would buy a cube full sus ebike. i will in the future.

Only to commute on. (If I had a commute).

I prefer a regular hardtail's handling to my 170mm emtb's.
not that I don't love the emtb and not that it isn't absolutely amazing even on easy local stuff and even more capable than my 170mm regular bike.
it's just that the purity of throwing around a nice light hardtail is more pleasurable (to me)

Oh... and £5k is mental!
Spec above Deore offers very little. nor does a carbon frame (esp. if it has an internal battery).
£3500 will get an amazing fs emtb

Discussing this with a mate today who can see an ebike in his future. He used to be a skeptic, till he had a go at one... Now it looks like it'll be his next purchase.

I suppose it is a fair whack for a hard tail and no doubt you could get a nice full sus ebike for similar money.

Father in law has just got last model ex display turbo levo for £1800. I thought that was a proper bargain!

If you're set on having a hard tail, I'd want to go at least 650b+. I think it would be nice to have the power of the bike, coupled with the traction of lower pressure/big volume tyres 🙂

Cheers chaps, I think what I want is a short trave fs, I can’t find much apart from what I would call the medium travel Canyon At that kind of money, ideally I would want sub, or at the most 100mm rear & 100-120mm front with either a Brose or Shimano motor.

Depends where I was intending to ride it most.
I keep with a hardtail since most of my riding I find more fun with one, otherwise need to pick up the pace and I am lazy. When I go somewhere a tad more hilly/rocky though I start reevaluating my choice.

Look for last season Trek Powerfly.
I got a brand new 2008 FS9 for about £3500 after Quidco rebate from Evans.
Amazing bike. I’ve had Sessions before so like Treks anyway but the Powerfly is a cracking bike

short travel is sort of pointless in that it'll weigh the same as mid/long travel and it'll pedal well regardless.
longer travel can just be set-up a little stiffer too with no real downsides.
spose it also depends what sort of angles/Geo you prefer tho.

My 170mm eeb is lighter with better components than most shorter travel eebs costing at least a grand more. There's no real sense behind some of the pricing out there.
Truely light will cost you £7-10k

My wife has a hardtail ebike.
I would happily have bought the same, but it was sold out, so I bought a fs ebike instead.
I like it, it’s great and all that, but i kinda wish I’d waited for a suitable hardtail, as it could take a rear rack for panniers.
But, that’s me, and with that criteria removed it’s fs all day long.

It’s a lot of unsprung mass so I can’t imagine it riding or handling as well as a normal hardtail. But it feels like the suspension on my e full-sus works way better than any other bike I’ve ridden, partly thanks to having lots of sprung mass compared to the unsprung mass.

I thought a 160/150mm electrified 29er would be total overkill on our flatter singletrack let alone bridleway bashing but actually it’s as good at that stuff as the gnar.

No.

Totally agree Chief.
(but you knew that already)

kicking about happily on a 120mm HT conversion. if I'd £3k+ to spend, I'd buy a 140/150mm FS though in a second.

I'd rather buy an extra battery too than go full bling on the bits.

I'd rather have a full sus with skinny tyres than a hardtail with big tyres. My Merida eOne-Sixty with 29" wheels and gravel tyres is awesome fun.

@GeForce Junky is that a 27.5 frame n fork with a spare 29r wheelset?
Had the same thought when I first got my emtb (cx tyres tho) but couldn't find a cheap enough 29r boost wheelset.
what tyres and what width are you using?

I’ve not ridden an E hardtail but I have tried a full suss one and the first thing I noticed was how well the suspension seemed to work. I’d probably go full suss if buying one.

I'd go full she's purely because it doesn't matter much about weight or optimal pedalling.

As someone who is looking to buy an ebike I've been weighing up the pros and cons like yourself.
From my point of view the only reason I'd buy a hardtail would be if I used it mainly for commuting and if I couldn't realistically afford a full sus version. Even then the full sus version will be easily commutable so I'm leaning that way as the positives easily outweigh the negatives for the riding I do.

Had a second hand Mondraker E vantage
Sold that, bought a Merida E160-800
Bloody brilliant, 18 months of flawless
service and all I’ve done is changed is gone tubeless, new brake pads, stick an upgraded rotor on and a different saddle

I bought the Mrs an E120 , ex demo

Not a huge difference in weight between the 2 , the 120 is a bit faster / nimble
But I love the grin factor on the 160

Try a few bikes out before you buy tho
I tried a few treks , Specialized, Mondraker and cubes

Merida just felt right from the word go
Although the Levo was close ( I had a stump jumper evo previously )

Merida was head and shoulders above spec tho , full Shimano / Shimano motor etc

I'd buy a HT if I was using it purely for function as a cargo bike or riding up to my mam's and back (~100km) in a day relatively easily but a FS if I was buying it mainly to have fun on. I think the extra weight of the E-gubbins would 'spoil' a trail HT.

IHNRAEMTB

Unless I win the lottery/dream contract (and so buy many bikes and storage) I would want to use an ebike for transport/utility as well as play, so a hardtail would possibly make more sense.

I went through this debate a couple of months ago and ended up with a HT. However I feel that my decision was over influenced by SWMBO being snide about huge amounts(for me) I was going to spend on a FS. I have been fortunately surprised how well the HT handles. Like some of the contributors above, I think the suspension works better with the extra weight. The one I bought is a bit of a hardcore so has no practical touches like rack mounts. I do like it but equally I wish I had mtfu and bought a FS. After all I have reached a big number of years and am very unlikely to buy another.

Have a real think about what type of riding your going to be doing. I've just gone to H/T as my only mtb and it's great for how and where I ride these days. But if I was to get an E-mtb (I won't) it would be to go faster on the bits that I'm currently slow. Going faster all the time would definitely beat me up more and not be as much fun. With an engine negating the weight penalty I'm not seeing the point in not having at least a bit of rear suspension.

F 🙂

I have a trek powerfly hardtail, it’s a great commuter but a terrible mountain bike, the back end just thuds through everything, it does the opposite of making trails come alive, it literally feels like they’re dead. Maybe i’m too used to my full suss but I’ve had various hard tails in the past. The weight just seems to remove all liveliness. I’ve only had it a few weeks, did a comparison of my commute if anyone’s interested. https://www.transportation-planning.com/blog/a-tale-of-two-bicycles

Geex - yeah the Merida is 27.5+ and is a little tight at the back with 2.0 storm control or 2.2 thunder Burt. A 2.3 hillbilly did fit but not with enough mud clearance. Levo has loads of room for 29.

Maybe look for a 2018 Focus Jam2, nice ride.

I'll try and answer as I have both, they both have the same Bosch CX motor and battery which is my preferred motor.
I originally bought the FS one in October and knowing no different I used it for all my riding at my local trail centre sherwood pines, it has been superb and I wouldn't have changed it for anything else until I had to send it in for warranty work on the forks which broke from a heavy landing. I didn't want to be without a bike for 2 weeks and I had been thinking of trying a hard tail so I bought a basic Cube reaction which had been reduced massively in the sales.
Without stating the obvious on the rougher parts of the trail it is less comfy and I have to ride with more respect for the bike, it also only has 100mm travel on the forks and it more of an XC bike. On the plus sides it picks up speed a lot quicker and is a lot better on the climbs. I've fitted a suspension post and a more padded seat and tbh I can see it being my preferred bike when the going isn't as rough. It also has a couple of miles more range than the FS and is much easier holding a cruise at speeds over the 15mph limit of the motor.
Interestingly looking at strava times for Sherwood pines red route my best on the FS was 38mins, I haven't done a full dry run on the HT but in some sections it has been massively quicker than the FS, mainly in the climbs and longer flat sections but surprisingly in a couple of downhill bits. I think the pines red being more of a trail suits the HT a bit more tbh but even so I was surprised it was close never mind quicker.

Although you have a motor the HT should be considered as you get more range and speed above motor assist comes easier. I'd think long and hard about the type of riding you are going to do and choose that way

Thanks GeForce 🙂

@couchy - Do you have exactly the same tyres on both bikes?

Thanks Couchy & all, some food for thought.
Cheers.

@couchy – Do you have exactly the same tyres on both bikes?

Minions on the FS an Smart Sams on the HT. Although he's swapping the SS's to Minions on the Ht this week as the Sams are not giving the best grip levels at times and he's just narrowing down if that's a tyre thing or a HT thing.

“Minions on the FS an Smart Sams on the HT.”

In that case, 95% of the difference is the tyres and 5% is hardtail vs full-sus. The Smart Sam is basically a hybrid bike tyre!

Yeah. That's exactly what I was getting at.

One soft compound DH tyre can give up over 25W in rolling resistance to a fast XC tyre. x2 that's loads even on an ebike.

Personally I hate riding anything but pure DH on proper soft compound heavy casing tyres. even on my emtb. They not only create more drag but increase sluggish handling behaviour.
The plus side is increased stability and grip but I'm not too fussed about increasing either of those traits to WC DH levels for general razzing about.

Would depend.

While stuff like the Bossnut has muddied the water a bit, it’s generally accepted wisdom that at new prices, if you want a MTB that will cope with being ridden then if you are looking to spend much below £1500-£2k then you’re going to get a much better HT then FS for your money. Above £2k then HTs are getting quite specific and to the level that you’d probably want to *want* a HT to pick one over FS.

Ebikes will be an extra on top of this, as there’s all the e-premium to pay for and probably the extra weight impact on the bike meaning that stronger components are needed.

As to a more general ‘ebike HT?’ I don’t see why not - there are plenty of reasons to prefer a HT over an FS. You’d certainly simplify maintenance straight off. Horses for courses and all that...

"As to a more general ‘ebike HT?’ I don’t see why not – there are plenty of reasons to prefer a HT over an FS. You’d certainly simplify maintenance straight off. Horses for courses and all that…"

It's more complex than that. So much of how a hardtail behaves relates to how the unsprung back-end (and thus the whole frame) moves. Doubling that weight will make a big difference and not in a good way.

If all you're doing is pedalling on smooth surfaces then that won't matter. But as soon as it gets rough or you're getting air then that huge unsprung mass is an issue. If it was't then hardtail motorbikes would still exist!

The Smart Sam is basically a hybrid bike tyre!

The point is though, he's pretty much as quick on them as he is on the FS on the Minions ! I've told him they're cheap and cheerful, he's swapping them soon.

He's kinda funny as he doesn't know better, so he just gets on with it on any tyre/bike. So what he loses in grip, he makes up in rolling speed on the Sams.

He’s kinda funny as he doesn’t know better, so he just gets on with it on any tyre/bike. So what he loses in grip, he makes up in rolling speed on the Sams.

I love folk like that. A mate who'd regularly podium at DH races (in Jnr, back in the days of V-brakes on DH bikes) who always fitted his front wheel (so tyre direction) whatever way it happened to come out of the car boot. I still remember telling him before a race run it was on backwards and him turning round, shrugging and saying it wouldn't matter. He podiumed as usual.
He knew **** all about tyre prvssures or suspension set up either, Just liked to ride flat out downhill and had a natural talent for it. Some well funny stories from those days. prob best kept for another time though.

It’s more complex than that. So much of how a hardtail behaves relates to how the unsprung back-end (and thus the whole frame) moves. Doubling that weight will make a big difference and not in a good way.

Good point. Disclaimer, I've seriously considered hub motor type bikes - specifically the Orbea Gain D series - as commuter fodder (would be a big loop with 12hr day in the middle of it and go through the middle of Wharnecliffe and Greno) and didn't stop to think, just carried on from there to HT's. Totally agree, adding a big chunk of unsprung mass to a hardtail to use offroad for anything more than BW spins would be a silly idea.

Maybe FS is the way forward for e-MTB's.

If i were buying a bike with pedalling assistance I would get the one with the largest amount of travel I could get as there'd be no penalty for pedalling a heavy 160mm+ bike up hill, all there'd be is win as far as i can see

it’s a good spec & a UD carbon frame.

Is it really worth spending for a carbon frame on an ebike?

I remember a year or so ago Spesh proudly trumpeting that their new £7k Levo had dropped something like half a pound (or maybe even a whole pound) from the previous £5k one.

On a 40lb bike.

I personally don’t think it’s worth spending extra to drop weight.
Spend extra to improve the spec, yeah I’d do that, but the weight difference is barely worth it.

Bit of a thread hijack but thanks for the advice on my bikes and tyres, I'm new to all this so basically just ride what is under me. I can now see how the tyres make a difference and I'm learning stuff as I go. I was kind of enjoying the HT tyres sliding more but having got my FS bike back complete with better forks I'm amazed how much grip I have and how good the forks are, loads to learn and I'm taking it all in 🙂

If I was buying a bike for MTB it would be a full susser. Because why not. You have enough power to cope with the weight, and then enough suspension to cope with the weight

Or I'd get an e bike in rigid form for about town/kids riding as a general bike (or maybe an e brompton)

I personally don’t think it’s worth spending extra to drop weight.
Spend extra to improve the spec, yeah I’d do that, but the weight difference is barely worth it.

from experience?

or just waffle?

@chakaping

the lightest frames ar the ones with the lightest motor and the battery mounted extrnally. Carbon could save even more weight but not if the battery is mouted internally.

Weight does alter how they handle. Ovrerall weight and weight distributon.

not sure how you remember Spesh dropping weight a yvar ago on a frame they didn't alter then.
The 2019 levo (only a few months old, and details were kept hush hush until released) is a LOT lighter than the previous ones.

Where are you getting "40lb" from?
most FS emtbs are around the 50lb mark. Hardtails aren't much lighter at all. 3lb maybe.

geex, my Steps HT was under 40lbs (just) with some decent spec, I realised pretty quickly that changing wheels & tyres to save weight made me slower & not faster, I'm not sure any of it is scientific but from my experience weight matters less on an eMtb.
Cheers.

what's a steps HT?
Ok. 3lb was a bit of an underestimate. What I meant was most siilarly spec'd hardtail versions of a FS emtb aren't all that much lighter than the FS.
mid motor emtbs vary in weight from sub 30lb to over 60lb. an air shock and pivots probably only make a couple of Kg difference to the frame weight.

weight matters less for what tho?
trundilng along sat down wheels never leaving the ground? probably
Bunnyhopping? not just doing it once, but doing it all day it gets way more tiring on a heavier bike. similarly so with most mtb skills like manaulling, lifting the rear, manouvering quickly in tight situations, even braking.
Been out on mine most of the day and I'm kinda hurting all over (in a good way) but not in a way I would have been had I chosen to ride my 16lb lighter regular bike with the same traval/Geo/spec.

an emtb is still an mtb. They definitely handle better in certain situations when they get closer to a regular mtb's weight.

@ geex, from experience.
I have a cube reaction hardtail, ive upgraded the forks wheels and gears.
That’s worth doing, it also dropped about 2kg in weight. But 2 kg on this bike is barely noticeable.
Upgrades to improve the bike are worth it, but doing something for weight loss? I wouldn’t bother.

https://ebike-mtb.com/en/best-affordable-emtb-2018-eleven-bikes-review/

I'm not currently in the market for an e bike but I found this article interesting.

Personally I'd go with a sprightly FS over a heavy HT....

At the money you are looking at, I'd wake up with cold sweats if I dropped that much on a HT unless I was a genuine racer.

@marty. Just looked at the Cube reaction (sorry hadn't heard of it) and it's listed as being 53lb!! That's ridiculously heavy for a hardtail emtb. My 170mm FS with a mid range gravity components,XT, Lyrik and Superdeluxe with no real upgrades is 6lb lighter. S
witching to tubeless and exo tyres took 3lb off from the tubed DD tyres it came supplied with and made a massive difference to handling.
How on earth did you not notice the handling difference taking 2kg off yours? or did you slowly replace parts and gradually lighten it?
also how do you ride it?. it's listed as a hybrid which to me hints at pretty tame off road riding. If that's it's use then fair enough but it does sound quite possibly like it's ridden in a style where the improved handling might not be so noticable to you.

Cube refer to all their ebikes as hybrid, they’re referring to the motor being there not that they are a hybrid bike in the traditional sense

The bike as standard weighed 45.5lb. It now weighs 41lbs. i changed the ridiculously heavy original fork for a fox float, this necessitated a change of wheels, which were also a truly ridiculous weight.
And i changed the gears from 9 to 10 speed, although that probably did nothing for the weight.
The bike does handle better, there’s no doubt about that, and the things i did to it were worth doing, there’s no doubt about that either.
But in the grand scheme of things it’s still a heavy bike.
The changes I’ve made have improved it’s performance, ie the fork actually has some damping, 10 speed better than 9 etc, but the weight loss really isn’t noticeable.
I have a cube stereo ebike as well, as standard it weighs 48lb, yet it feels better to ride than the hardtail.
So to summarise, weight loss on an ebike has much less effect than on a regular bike, because there’s so much more of it.
Ime.

I don't really have any experience of different weight e-bikes. I just know that so far, I prefer the handling of my 2019 Levo to my Spitfire despite all the extra weight. The geometry of the two is pretty similar, just more BB drop for the bigger wheels, and about 10mm more front centre and 20mm rear centre. It seems improbable that the Levo's weight is ideal downhill but what would be better - even heavier or a bit lighter?

I'd have thought that how heavy a rider is, how physically strong a rider is, and how quick their reactions are would have a bearing on the 'ideal' weight of a bike? I'm moderately heavy, quite strong but not the snappiest mover, so I can see myself preferring a bike that's a bit slower/heavier to respond.

geex what’s a steps HT?

Sorry, Steps is Shimano's motor system, as in my hardtail with a steps motor was just under 40lbs.
I tink I have decided on a short travel FS, well I have ordered one, whether it turns up or not I have no idea as it's coming from spain 😉

Cheers.

My Merida came from Spain (Motocard). Remember you need to switch the brakes and plug.

Cat like ninja hulk strong and incredibly good looking myself chief

GFJ, I have ordered mine form motocard, how was the transaction for you?
I’m a bit nervous as I have never heard of them before 🤔

“Cat like ninja hulk strong and incredibly good looking myself chief”

If you delete the first three words that’s me to a tee. And improbably youthful.

No problems at all, turned up very quickly in the biggest bike box I have ever seen!

Wish I could say then same, I can't /won't say to much at this point 🙁

Thinking about it, my Ebike has simultaneously increased my range (15-25 miles to 35-50) but also decreased my ‘range’ as my ‘exploring’, (use of footpaths) can be a right pita (esp when cold, wet and tired) as getting a 22kg lump with less good handholds than my orange 5 over a slippy wooden, wobbly stile with low shrubbery can go wrong, also I’m an xc bimbler in it for the scenery so happy to plod along (and there are lots more fpaths than other track types) and I **think** that plus tyres might take some of the horse hole/tractor track rumble away, so a 15kg version of what I have now is becoming more appealing

!awaits Fazua developments with interest

2unfit2ride - just incase this is your problem: the only problem I had was the bike didn't work on arrival, shifter did nothing. Turned out it was too close to the brake lever so wouldn't activate as it actually needs a lot of lever travel.

Rode a hardtail Eeb briefly yesterday.
It was heavy. (with more of a rearward weight bias than my FS Eeb)
it jumped fine though when you compensated for it.
it had a yam motor and was more punchy than mine too. Wasn't bad in the slightest but I think I'd prefer a shimano motor on one.
Get one if that's what you want. and can cope with the weight.
If your rides involve gates/fences and you're going to be stranded at the first stile maybe avoid. Can't honestly see how this would happen if you can lift an ordinary bike over though.

a little 32lb(ish) Focus Raven Fazua HT with shorter stem and higher bars woiuld be pretty ace for razzing about on. Bit pricy though.

“a little 32lb(ish) Focus Raven Fazua HT with shorter stem and higher bars woiuld be pretty ace for razzing about on. Bit pricy though.”

That’s the same weight as my full-sus! And only a few pounds heavier than my hardtail - neither with motors!

GFJ, thanks but thats not the problem, its with the seatpost & a few marks on the frame, they seem to be dealing with it so I don't mind mentioning it here but we will see how it goes, oh & this is what I bought totally ignoring some good advice 😉

[url= https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7899/39985687603_3aaf51bef3_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7899/39985687603_3aaf51bef3_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/23Vp6QX ]IMG_3736[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/94658862@N08/ ]Martin Robbo[/url], on Flickr

Thanks all that replied & made this an interesting thread.
Cheers.

Very nice, I love my Merida. The paint is probably the only negative I have found with mine, it chips very easily. I already have a lot of missing paint on the downtube and chainstay.