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I've been hovering over the buy button for a few weeks and I think I'm finally going to give in but I'm stuck between two (well three if you include don't buy either) choices.
Both are very similar, essentially the frame is the same bar paint. Travel on both is the same - though the shimano equipped one is on 36 factory vs 38 performance. Of the two I'm more inclined to the 36s for my riding but not enough to make it a clear winner.
Price is within £50 of one another so nothing to decide there.
The difference is one has an Shimano STEPS EP800 motor and much better finishing kit, the other has a Bosch Performance Line CX Cruise and a lower spec. Finishing kit would be enough to make the choice on a meat bike but is a bit less important on an ebike I think.
Battery on the bosch is about 10% bigger.
There's the reliability thing but it's amply covered elsewhere, the shimano bike is also half an hours drive away vs one and a half for the bosch so that much easier for warranty.
So what are the two motors like to live with? What's the power delivery and battery usage like - it's all well and good having more battery but if the motor is more hungry it doesn't necessarily mean better life. The shimano is likely to be lighter too based on the smaller battery and better finishing kit so a marginal improvement in life from there.
Oh and is blue black faster than white and black?
Heres our experience, we both ride identical bikes, shimano equipped with high spec finishing kit. Batteries are 630. Deb rides hers all day in trail and boost whereas in order to make my battery last I'm in super eco. The difference is I weigh 92kg and shes 55kg. Makes a huge difference to the performance.
BOsch for repair-ability 100%
Still not that repairable though and batteries are always going to be a big point of failure regardless of the motor.
Absolutely the shimano motor is "more disposable" than the bosch but you're still relying on parts being available in 3 years time, plus the battery not giving out, plus being able to actually get it repaired by someone - all well and good you can get new boards etc but if you can't get them installed that's just decoration.
If (and it's still an if) I buy either one it's because I've accepted theres a significant limitation on lifespan in either case.
An ebike isn't for life, it's just for Christmas. (at least for a sealed system one)
The difference is I weigh 92kg and shes 55kg. Makes a huge difference to the performance.
So what you're saying is I should only ride it during the week to avoid beer related battery degradation?
more powerful
What's the delivery like? Is it more of an assistant so increasing roughly in line with effort/cadence or is it more as soon as you turn the pedals you get the output of whatever mode you're in?
Cant speak for shimano (as i wouldnt have one in a lucky bag), but on Mrs SSS bosch ebike - if shes stopped and the bike is in Turbo, and she goes to start pedalling, it shoots off forward as if 100% power is applied instantaneously.
So she has to make sure its in eco when starting pedalling 😀
So assume power delivery pro rata power level is delivered instantly
If (and it’s still an if) I buy either one it’s because I’ve accepted theres a significant limitation on lifespan in either case.
An E-bike isn’t for life, it’s just for Christmas. (at least for a sealed system one)
This is my biggest concern with E-bikes, how long will they last (batteries being of particular concern) an what will they be worth after 3 years of use? Will anyone want to but a 2nd hand E-Bike that is 3 or more years old?
I tend to buy and use bikes for at least 5 years, replacing consumables as needed, before moving them on, and that happens rarely as a complete bike. Usually they are of the Trigger's Broom variety, so as the frame reaches end-of life the parts will move to a new frame. E-bikes don't appear to be sold as frame-only options.
Yeah sorry i was rambling a bit there. Point i was trying to make is that power and reliability are a little bit irrelevant if your battery isnt big enough to use it as it can be.
Point i was trying to make is that power and reliability are a little bit irrelevant if your battery isnt big enough to use it as it can be
Sorry, I figured, you just worried me about the impact of full fat Friday on battery performance!
Bosch power delivery can be tailored - and its proportional to effort put in
From memory we’ve had 6 or so of each.
Each brand in the group sorry or six of each failed?
I think the Shimano will be quieter - right up to the point where it’s totally silent!
Being a Bosch owner myself, but I have ridden a Shimano powered bike for a few hundred miles. The Bosch Gen 4 non smart has loads of grunt and will power you over all manor of obstacles compared to the Shimano. The Shimano loves to be in high cadence and is suited to the fitter riders. It also seems to get better milage than the Bosch.
Problem wise, with our group it's only the Bosch owners that have needed new motors! My old Gen 2 is on its 6th motor, but my Gen 4 has just clocked up 4k miles without any trouble but others have had them go at 2k.
Bosch have always replaced them with no issues.
Batteries will outlast your bike so don't worry about them. At least the Bosch ones do. I'm still using my old 2016 batteries in my gen 4 bike as they fit into the frame.
Problem is with anything you get good and bad so it's always a gamble.
Having had Shimano & Bosch powered bikes, there is no scenario where the Shimano option is better.
Less power, more unreliable, harder to fix, less economical & harder to sell.
My Bosch battery had taken about 100 charges when I sold it and still had the same range as when it was new.
The nearer your dealer the better 👍Bosch Gen 2 wasn't really up to the job , after my 4th replacement Bosch suggested it was best not to ride it through water as they don't like it 🙄Contrast with the Gen 4 my mates Whyte is 3 years old still on its original motor so issues sorted it seems .
I'm on an Orbea Rise with the detuned motor definitely likes a higher cadence.
6 shimanos, 6 bosches
What’s the delivery like? Is it more of an assistant so increasing roughly in line with effort/cadence or is it more as soon as you turn the pedals you get the output of whatever mode you’re in?
it varies depending on the mode you choose - from near instant power, to pretty gradual. I think the latest bosch system you can tailor the modes as well, but my bosch gen 4 (pre smart system) the modes are fixed to whatever bosch decided would be best, and they work pretty well, Tour+ and emtb are my goto modes usually - although I mostly ride my trek fuel exe ebike these days rather than the bosch powered bike
Bosch power on my Wild FS is instantaneous thereabouts, but the kick it gives is dependent on what mode you're in.
Of course if you're in turbo it'll feel much more powerful as it first kicks in than if you're in Eco.
I don't have it higher than Tour, ever. Usually Eco until my legs start getting spent then Tour for the climbs and Eco on the flats and downs.
I wouldn't have a Shimano I don't think, though I would take their lovely minimal display over the awful Speak and Spell on the bars of the Boscheses.
I would go with whomever is closest. You will very likely need the local dealer backup.
If you've never had an ebike before, then whichever you get will be amazing, the differences in power delivery etc are a bit moot.
Which geo fits you best?
No to a Shimano for me. Seen a few ep8 motors doe with low mileage.
One friend had his die at 260 miles for no apparent reason and had hardly ridden it so was out of warranty.
Can't get parts for them either.
No to a giant ebike. Motor is locked down to giant despite being a Yamaha. Customised PCB. Which giant won't sell.
Bosch, brose or Yamaha for me.
I've a Yamaha pwx3 on my bike and I feel it's more powerful at the top end than a Bosch but that's my opinion.
Shimano definitely feels weakest out of the 4 different manufacturers I've ridden.
Yamaha, you say?
www.paulscycles.co.uk/bikes/electric-bikes/raymon-fullray-150e-80-electric-mountain-bike-bluematt-black__11507
Total bargain.
I've had Bosch Gen2 (4 failures in 2500 miles) and Gen 4 (1 failure at 2800 miles, while unused and unloved in the garage after I bought a Kenevo SL) and Mahle 1.1 (1 failure at pretty low mileage, same failure type now in evidence)
Wouldn't own a Shimano. Used in isolation the Bullitt I borrowed was fantastic and easily the best handling FF I've ever ridden but when riding with mates on Levos it felt woefully underpowered and under-batteried, the 630Wh battery going flat at the same time as my mate's 504Wh in his Levo.
FFS fellas... you're not exactly inspiring me with confidence about getting this Orbea Rise off my mate.
Out of all my eeb owning mates Shimano seem to be by far the least reliable and have the longest wait times on warranty work.
Two mates used to own Orange eebers that were that bad they bought two spare motors so they could swap them out and still keep riding while the broken motors went back under warranty.
Are all these failures due to off-road use? Wife has a 4 year old Bosch e-bike (sit up & beg hybrid) & so far it hasn't missed a beat.
FFS fellas… you’re not exactly inspiring me with confidence about getting this Orbea Rise off my mate.
Have you been living under a rock? Virtually every ebike thread has a gripe about Shimano motors 😉
That said, a guy in our group has Shimano on his YT Decoy and it's seemed relatively trouble free.
My 'dale has a Bosch and its stupidly powerful. And stupidly heavy. Next model down had a Shimano and a bit of research told me to go for the Bosch.
It's been back for warranty once in the first 400 miles... creaking like a barsteward. Fixed by having all the mount bolts tightened. (told not to do this myself as they are tamper proof and it would void the warranty (arf!) )
Have you been living under a rock? Virtually every ebike thread has a gripe about Shimano motors
It seems every ebike thread has gripes about most motors in honesty. Worst case scenario for me, i remove the forks and fit them to the Privateer, the wheels fit my Slayer, the shock fits the 141 or gets sold and the rest of the bits go in spares 🙂
Mine will be OK for warranty as i'll get my mate to drop it in... but i expect by the time that runs out in 18 months there'll be more places able to service/repair Eebs anyway.
FFS fellas… you’re not exactly inspiring me with confidence about getting this Orbea Rise off my mate.
Im sure your already aware the warranty is none transferable!!!!
I'm currently debating going the emtb route and have been researching a bit... I've sort of decided going the Bosch route, definitely not Shimano.
The Brose seems a possibility but motor failures look very common. One thing I definitely want is a battery that can be easily removed for both transport and charging.
Are all these failures due to off-road use? Wife has a 4 year old Bosch e-bike (sit up & beg hybrid) & so far it hasn’t missed a beat.
yeah, pretty much, there are commuter ebikes clocking up 10's of thousands of miles on the same motor
I'm on my second bosch motor (bosch cx gen 4) , first died at 400 miles, second has done a further 500 or so,and is still going string but doesnt see much use these days.
I'm also on my second TQ hpr50 motor, first died at 400 miles, second still going strong at 500+ miles now.
Friend with an orbea rise (shimano ep8 motor)has now had 4 motors ,all done under warranty with a quick turnaround, in probably 1000+ miles.
Im sure your already aware the warranty is none transferable!!!
That's OK 🙂
I got rid of my Orbea Rise as I couldn't stand the noise of the Shimano motor rattling in the frame all the time. It was like riding a bike with a handful of chippings running free inside the frame.
Might be worth having browse round here (I have) https://www.emtbforums.com/
If I'm not allowed to post this then sorry, feel free to remove.
Have you considered a Specialized with the Brose motor, transferable warranty and very good dealer network.
but you’re still relying on parts being available in 3 years time, plus the battery not giving out,
We have Bosch powered bike on the work fleet, 10 years old and the battery has lost 25% capacity. Spares are still available, a hefty £462 to replace it.
Comparisons with the Wisper bikes (Bafang powerered we think); have had batteries required after 2 years, control units after 3 years and wheels from last year that appear to have spokes made from cheddar. Wouldn't touch with a barge-pole for own use.
Which geo fits you best?
The blue one looks nicer*, but that really is the difference other than motor.
Have you considered a Specialized with the Brose motor, transferable warranty and very good dealer network.
You don't half pay for that though. I've firmly considered the kenevo then decided as I can buy two bikes which don't make me think "that'll need swapping" on every line of the three spec for the same price I'll go with one or eventually both of those.
Judging by all my friends’ bikes I’d not touch a Shimano motor. All failed, long warranty times and no support out of warranty.
what someone needs to do is design an aftermarket motor that has the same mountings as a Shimano motor
It'll be interesting to see what you eventually buy.
There are some cracking deals on Spesh eebs at the moment if you have a hunt around.
what someone needs to do is design an aftermarket motor that has the same mountings as a Shimano motor
With a gear box in it?
It’ll be interesting to see what you eventually buy.
Knowing me, in about 12 months a rigid steel single speed 😂
I've had both , The first Vitus went theough two shimano motors in just over 235 miles so I got a refund. Then I bought a cube stereo with the bosch gen 4 motor . The only problems I've had are a Battery holder coming loose , that said its only down about 350 miles. The Bosch motor has cut out twice but both times its been on the steepest hills I could find and the motor must have reached a temperature that prompted a shut down.
The Eco mode in shimano seems to have more power than its Bosch equivalent and the motor is silent. The Bosch certainly seems to have more initial power and a reassuring kind of ratchet sound when back pedaling. Ebikes are great and you will get a decent range for your typical winch and plummet type Tweed valley rides. That said I still use my other bikes for regular biking as It seems pointless charging a bike when Im still fit enough to do decent rides.
The last thing I would say is that when the warranty goes the depriciation of the bike is massive and they will be hard to sell. I wont rush into buying another until they are more reliable.
My old Gen 2 is on its 6th motor
Gosh that's not very encouraging
There are some cracking deals on Spesh eebs
Well having struck the shimano off the list I found myself sat in hospital for the second time in as many weeks (unrelated) and thought I'd get the bosch one ordered...
... Then I found a levo turbo that'll actually fit at a price I don't think is too offensive and isn't a 6 hour drive away if something goes wrong. Fortunately the discount code they were showing didn't work as well otherwise I'd probably be picking one up tomorrow!
The pondering begins again.
(the offers are mostly on '22 models which are tiny, which is a shame because I quite like the looks of them the kenevo sl especially, just not the santa cruz esque £50 fork on a £7k bike specs)
Well as is the way these things are done on STW I ignored everyone's recommendations including my own.
The initial thoughts of the mondraker crafty R (bosch) or Dust SE (ep8) ended up being shuffled and shifted, variously via specialized levo, back to the mondraker, then a current model orbea wild and back, then kenevo sl etc. but I kept circling back round to the crafty.
The only thing which didn't fit for me with the crafty was the fixed battery. Various minor niggly concerns about charging aside - largely assuaged by "mine's been fine" posts on this thread - the big thing with a non removable battery is ease of charging when away; it being easier to take the battery up a flight of stairs in a hotel than the whole bike.
It came down to a choice between the kenevo sl, which I want to be the right bike but I'm pretty convinced isn't the right ebike for me and the focus JAM2 6.9 which I'm pretty sure is the right ebike - the current levo was a close second bar the 650b rear (I absolutely do not need a different wheel size adding to my collection, it's bad enough I now have 11 and 12 speed to keep on top of) and price for a decent spec.
Wheelbase met me a bit more than halfway on a price match to surge bikes (£4250 if anyone fancies one) which was close enough to warrant buying it from somewhere close.
I've picked up the focus this evening, nothing more than wheeling to the car to go buy so far however I'm pleased at that much but will need to figure out a good way of getting the wheels off to put it in the car if I can't move the display as I can't flip the bike with it as is.
A quick shakedown tomorrow or Thursday evening then away to Wales with it for the weekend all being well ready for a NeBD thread next week!
Cheers for the feedback etc on the various threads over the last month.
The simple way to look at this is what are Bosch known for ? Making professional power tools, which are motors driven by batteries.
what are Shimano known for ?. F***ing up the simplest of hydraulic brakes. Can you fix those brakes ?, no you throw them in the bin and buy a replacement, in the hope that one isnt micro-leaked to hell also.
Bosch because you can get them rebuilt. I would consider a second hand Bosch ebike and I'd consider the rebuild cost into the purchase price so I would know how much it might cost me. Batteries are another thing but a proper bike shop can tell you how many charges it's had.
Not supplying spares for their brakes which means that when the tiny little rubber bit perishes you’ve got to get a new brake.
Shimano brakes are basically disposable which isn’t great for the environment. At least with the likes of Hope you can basically replace every tiny single piece to keep them going
Awesome deal on that Focus. Very similar suspension set up to my Cannondale, but for a couple of hundred quid more you have Fox Factorys and nice Fox X shock! That looks like it'll be a great ride 🙂
The thing that is going to get bigger is the OEM side of things. Bosch will need to buy a groupset company like trip or Microsoft and sell as a package like SRAM or Shimano.
Yeah I'm chuffed, will get some pedals on it this evening and then have a look see if I can move the display or at least get another mount for it.
[shame face] I did have to look in the manual to find the on button 😳
Bosch will need to buy a groupset company like trip or Microsoft and sell as a package like SRAM or Shimano.
I'm not so sure to be honest, shimano aren't locking people into their drive train yet (watch this space though I guess) and the sram motor is really only applicable at the very high end for now - transmission and as reverb equipped full builds, that's not threatening anything but bosch's position in the pointy end of the market.
Ridden both motors on various bikes and the Brose on Specialized and hands down the Brose is the most natural feeling power delivery compared to the other two. Specialized are having a bit of a sale so I’d take a look and also see if you can test ride.
see if I can move the display or at least get another mount for it.
I've rotated the display to directly over the stem (you don't look at it much after the first few rides), means I can have my Garmin out front of the stem. Turning the bike upside down is a sod. I only have to remove the front wheel to get mine in the car, so have a blanket to rest the forks on - think if removing the rear as well, I'd do it with the bike rightwayup, pop the rear out and lift it straight into the car (forklift at the ready 😀 )
It'll go in the car with the rear on so long as its just me but it's snug. (of course the fork undoes from the drive side, the rear from the nds which makes lying it on its side to remove the wheels a pita too)
So much as anything else it's been a long time since I had a puncture so I guess I'm due...
The biggest problem with shimano is lack of back up so most repairers are not interested. This leads to a lack of first hand knowledge that is usually gained by working on a product regularly.