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Had a Kona Remote Control for just over 18 months, it uses a Bosch Performance CX motor. This was replaced under warranty earlier this year. While checking bike over the night before an Exmoor ride last week found the motor wouldn't work and an Error message came up on the display. Switched it off then back on again and the bike seemed to shoot away from me up the road? 🤔
I thought I must have imagined it so back in the garage I popped the battery out as it comes with keys. Just wanted to check for damp as the last ride on the Quantocks was particularly wet 🙄
All fine, no damp put it back in, now brace yourselves. Switched it back on and the bike shot off across the garage and slammed into one of my other bikes and finished up upside down on the floor!!!!!!
Don't mind telling you that set the heart racing took a long time to calm back down. Bike is now back in the shop,dealer was visibly shocked, as he said what if there was a child crossing the road or it slammed into a tree when I was on it? Bosch and Kona have been informed so I await developments.
The big problem I have is I'm not sure all the reassurances in the world will convince its going to be safe to ride again. If this is hopefully a one off still doesn't inspire confidence. 😞😞😞😞😞
More convinced than ever to buy one from a shop, now considering going back to Analogue, harder work but at least it won't try and kill me! 🙄🙄🙄
Have to admit I was expecting a bit more blood when I read the title, not just that a riderless bike crashed. Can see it would be a bit of a shock though.
At least it finally reveals the truth about how much effort you have to put in on them. 🙂
More importantly, are your other bikes OK?
Had a Kona Remote Control
Clue's in the name. Have you pissed off your missus recently?
Glad to hear there was someone thinking of the children here. I hope no baby robins were/could have been affected?
Has your Mrs taken out an insurance policy recently?
Stay safe people, judgement day is upon us, the machines are revolting. Electronic meltdown of the torque sensing ECU?....Kill it with fire to be sure.
Glad to hear there was someone thinking of the children here. I hope no baby robins were/could have been affected?
Very scary indeed.
Thats something thats been worrying me, is that it might take on a life of its own and propel me under the nearest bus. Should 4 pot brakes be standard just in case panic braking is required.
How about a kill switch on the bar somewhere, interrupt between the battery and motor.
That said, if you are horribly injured, you've got a hell of a compensation claim 😀
Maybe it became self aware and just wanted to go ride some trails?
Maybe it became self aware and just wanted to go ride some trails?
Its a natural progression. Give it a couple of years and the bike can head out and get you KOM on strava whilst you stay at home and have a beer.
It decided it wasnt a pedelec after all, and everyone was right, it was just a motorbike in disguise.
Don’t mind telling you that set the heart racing
Folk are always banging on about how they actually do get their heartrate up with their ebikes, makes sense now.
Assuming it is a legal motor I don't think you'll find it suddenly shooting off when you're sitting on it.
It's not going to be like that lathe vs disc brake video, let's put it that way.
But yeah, hardly ideal.
Its a natural progression. Give it a couple of years and the bike can head out and get you KOM on strava whilst you stay at home and have a beer.
A couple of years after that the damn thing will have already stolen your beer from the fridge. That's probably what caused the Terminator war.
Pretty serious issue and a massive failure if the software/hardware has allowed the bike to propel itself with no user instruction.
In the automotive world there is ISO 26262, wonder if the cycling industry knows what an FMEA is, how to design to it and implement function safety into its software. A good example of this is some sensors will have two outputs which can be cross checked for plausibility.
Thankfully a few serious replies amongst the usual attempts at humour 🙄🙄🙄🙄Should have known better but given the seriousness I'd hoped that wouldn't have been the case 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
This forum isn't for the fainthearted.
Should have known better but given the seriousness I’d hoped that wouldn’t have been the case
Really? How long have you been around here?
Pretty serious issue and a massive failure if the software/hardware has allowed the bike to propel itself with no user instruction.In the automotive world there is ISO 26262, wonder if the cycling industry knows what an FMEA is, how to design to it and implement function safety into its software. A good example of this is some sensors will have two outputs which can be cross checked for plausibility.
Agreed - this sounds like an erroneous output from the torque sensor, but that's one sensor I would definitely have thought would have had compared dual outputs for this exact reason.
wonder if the cycling industry knows what an FMEA is
Enlighten us...some sort of shutdown failsafe thing? How far wrong do the electronic controls have to go before the battery could become volatile? that would be my main concern if it was sat in the garage with a mind of its own...
Given that Bosch is massive in Automotive I'm pretty sure they're familiar with ISO 26262 - it's the off-the-shelf motor system here that's potentially failed not Kona per se.
Certainly when I was working for ZF and they were/are investigating the electronics for ebike motors, through their emobility department then, given the whole organisation is ISO 26262, by default the supply chain was equally qualified and the end product would have been I'm sure.
Can't answer for Shimano obviously but this was a Bosch system
In the automotive world there is ISO 26262, wonder if the cycling industry knows what an FMEA is
Is that the standard for how to fake emissions tests?
Pretty serious issue and a massive failure if the software/hardware has allowed the bike to propel itself with no user instruction.
In the automotive world there is ISO 26262
Good grief, I know ebikes are heavy and all that but I'm not sure I'm expecting them to be a the bleeding edge of safety system design. Car has potentially 100s KW of power and weighs a lot.
There are standards that could apply (eg 61508) but due to the low power and minimal consequence of failure I doubt anyone cares.
First post in about 2 years....
Having had a natter in private to Oldfart I’ve seen this before.
It’s most probably corrosion in the walk assist switch which then develops a mind of its own. Ebikes and software have evolved so now you need a combination button press to activate walk assist so you can’t do it by accident and it should stop this from happening.
In the first instance the fix is likely a new switch and software update
But I’d totally understand why someone might not want the bike fixed as this is obviously potentially dangerous. I’d politely but firmly pursue getting the entire bike replaced or a full refund.
(Note - I’ve seen this on Yamaha motors and my Bosch knowledge is a couple of years out of date now but it’s the same situation, same symptoms, same potential water ingress)
FMEA = Failure Mode Effects Analysis
An approach for understanding how your system/component/process can fail, how likely it is fail how likely you are to detect the failure and the consequences of the failure. You then use this information to improve the requirements/specification/implementation of your system/component/process as appropriate.
How powerful is this walk assist? The walk assist on any ebike I've tried has been barely enough to push the bike forward, let alone enough to cause it to shoot across the garage.
I'm asking because a more powerful walk assist would actually be really handy for when I've got the kids in the trailer.
The most important thing in e-bikes is the warranty and back up in my opinion. I've had the same thing on a 400cc Honda dirt bike, and ended up in a field... the bike stayed back in the lane on the other side of the hedge.. Bikes with motors... certainly more complicated than a single speed.
in my experience Bosch are very good at warranty, my only complaint is all the form filling required by the dealer.
How powerful is this walk assist? The walk assist on any ebike I’ve tried has been barely enough to push the bike forward, let alone enough to cause it to shoot across the garage.
I’m asking because a more powerful walk assist would actually be really handy for when I’ve got the kids in the trailer.
I've got the bosch gen4 (oldfart has the bosch gen 3), and the walk assist is good enough to propel me sat on the bike at slightly faster than walking pace on a flat surface , without pedalling.
Christine 2.
Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the garage.
I'm not anti-e-bikes but this makes me sad:
an Error message came up on the display
I like bike related errors manifesting themselves as weird noises, not a computer telling me that my bike has a problem.
Anyway, good job that no children were hurt in the course of this thread.
E Motors, making the trails bikes come alive.
TBF to oldfart, I can attest it is rather terrifying
In Basel we had fleets of eBikes (Pick-e-Bikes) all over the city. superb way to get about. (FWIW, they were Stromer ST3s - sadly usually limited to 37km/h, though some went at 45km/h).
I rented one that exhibit this behaviour, turned it into a motorbike. Was a hoot, stopped as soon as you touched the brakes, but it was dodgy as **** when you were trying to get off the bike, or on it, and the merest nudge had you hanging onto the bars with the back wheel powering forward.
Hope you get it sorted, I can appreciate your reticence.
Could you have bumped a pedal ?. or the weight of them and gravity caused it to think you'd started pedaling 😕
wonder if the cycling industry knows what an FMEA is
**** Me - Electric Autopilot ?
Did the bike swing to the right as it went off? That's a good diagnostic.
I suspect it's gone Brexity and taken back control.
Would make a good sequel to...
Look forward to the release of the Kona Christine next year?
Christine 2.
Bit late there...
Oh yeah, missed that.
Obvious gag is obvious though.
Is it any wonder I don't think I can trust the damn things? 🙄
Good grief, I know ebikes are heavy and all that but I’m not sure I’m expecting them to be a the bleeding edge of safety system design. Car has potentially 100s KW of power and weighs a lot.
There are standards that could apply (eg 61508) but due to the low power and minimal consequence of failure I doubt anyone cares.
If the failure is always to cease pedal assist, then yes there is going to be less risk, but if the failure can be that the thing starts moving under its own will, then the risk is considerably different. 20kg ebike doing 15mph is going to cause a fair bit of damage. Robust scoring of an FMEA is important, downgrading scores can get you in quite a bit of trouble!
Seems that there is a standard for EEbbbsss: https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:ts:4210:-10:ed-1:v1:en
wonder if the cycling industry knows what an FMEA is, how to design to it and implement function safety into its software.
Dunno about bike companies, but Bosch most definitely will have considering the other industries they're in.
A single point failure, leading to an unwanted 'launch mode' has to be a recall issue surely? Otherwise the emergency services are going to scraping lots of litigious dentists and accountants off of trees and the back of camper vans...
20kg ebike doing 15mph is going to cause a fair bit of damage.
Assuming it fails at full power, and manages to stay upright untill it gets to full speed before it hits anything.
A single point failure, leading to an unwanted ‘launch mode’ has to be a recall issue surely?
Problem is, if I understand the failure correctly, that there can only be one switch for the walk mode. That means that there will always be some possible failure mode where a single component causes a problem, just like a car only has a single accelerator pedal, so having that jam leads to a potentially catastrophic accident.
Problem is, if I understand the failure correctly, that there can only be one switch for the walk mode.
It's two switches on a single controller on the Bosch bikes I've ridden. You press one button to enable walk mode, then have to press (and hold) the '+' button to walk. Release the button and it resets.
then have to press (and hold) the ‘+’ button to walk. Release the button and it resets.
If it's a mechanical switch, it can jam. If there are two switches on a single controller, they can both be effected if the controller gets soaked in water.
If it’s a mechanical switch, it can jam. If there are two switches on a single controller, they can both be effected if the controller gets soaked in water.
Agreed. I think with any vehicle, I'd like to have a way of disengaging the transmission physically rather than rely on switches and software. Perhaps I'll start popping the chain off the chainring when it's parked up in the workshop 🤔
Assuming it fails at full power, and manages to stay upright untill it gets to full speed before it hits anything.
It's amazing how well a rider can balance a bike, while thier brain tries to keep up with what the heck is happening, while looking directly at the tree they really don't want to hit at 15mph...
It's a small risk, but a failure while riding is a concern, because you could be propelled into a tree/car/child's face with no warning.
My 8 year old car is subject to a recall at the moment - one seatbelt mount *might* have been damaged then *might* have corroded then *might* fail in a crash.
It’s amazing how well a rider can balance a bike, while thier brain tries to keep up with what the heck is happening, while looking directly at the tree they really don’t want to hit at 15mph…
And not apply the brake? I’m talking about in the OPs situation, where there was no rider.
I'm not one for knee-jerk reactions but...
BAN THE BASTARD THINGS!!!
From the OP's description it sounds like more than a 'walk mode' switch failure seeing as it's going for full power when turned on without any other control or pedal input from the user?
That's a bit more fundamental and sounds like any safeguards (Hardware or software) have not worked in this instance...
Anyone got any ideas as to what combination(s) of signal spoofing/component failure would actually be necessary to reproduce the OP's issue?
Assuming it fails at full power, and manages to stay upright untill it gets to full speed before it hits anything.
You'd be hard to justify that as a reason to downscore the risk/severity/RPN on an FMEA! These things are powerful and accelerate quickly, even quicker with no rider on.
And not apply the brake? I’m talking about in the OPs situation, where there was no rider.
In a panic people do strange things, this is the reason why there is functional safety, etc. One of the reasons why if you press the brake and accelerator in a car, it kills the throttle.
Dunno about bike companies, but Bosch most definitely will have considering the other industries they’re in.
A single point failure, leading to an unwanted ‘launch mode’ has to be a recall issue surely? Otherwise the emergency services are going to scraping lots of litigious dentists and accountants off of trees and the back of camper vans…
You would hope that Bosch/Shimano/Giant/Specialized would be designing stuff that is safe by design and these types of events can't happen with the software/hardware design and fail safes.
Be interesting to see how the power demand works on the bikes, does it just use the crank position or does it use a rudimentary torque sensor as well?
You’d be hard to justify that as a reason to downscore the risk/severity/RPN on an FMEA! These things are powerful and accelerate quickly, even quicker with no rider on.
They're not though, that's the point. They're limited to 250W for a reason, and that means they don't fall under the sorts of functional safety standards you're alluding to. Basically worst case credible consequences are bike scoots across floor and hits wall. Absolute tat and well below where you'd want proper functional safety design principles to kick in.
Be interesting to see how the power demand works on the bikes, does it just use the crank position or does it use a rudimentary torque sensor as well?
as I understand it, most commercial modern ebikes use a combination of torque,cadence and wheel speed to determine how fast to spin the motor.
This thread reminds me of when my brother messed up the ignition timing on his motorbike,when he dropped the clutch it went backwards ,he never saw that one coming 🙂
Oh and well done all the folk posting Christine links,the OPs bike is clearly possessed .
Simon Cowell off a low cost itv popular media show recently had an accident by falling off an electric mountain bike in which he broke his back.He said he should have read the manual first, but anything prpeled by an outside souse of power may at some time malfunction, a few years ago i had an electric nail gun , recalled due to the possibility as they said of it fireing randomly if used on an extension lead with something using the same socket.
electric mountain bike
?
Not so much an e-bike, more an electric motorbike.
A new report suggests that his e-bike was no bicycle at all. It was a Swind EB-01, described as the most powerful and advanced bike in the world, the Daily Mail says.
With 15kW of electric power, which means some 20 electric horsepower, it’s said to be deliver top speeds of 60 mph (96.5 kph) but can easily be made to deliver 80 mph (128.7 kph) with some tinkering. This would void the warranty, of course, but it’s never stopped thrill-seekers before.
The EB-01 is made to order and retails for £16,500 plus local taxes in the UK and $20,400 in the U.S. It’s a powerful electric motorcycle with pedals, made for offroading only. It comes with dual suspension, a choice of tires depending on your riding style, hydraulic brakes, regenerative braking, high ground clearance and a light frame that makes it fly.