E-bike explosion

Quite remarkable that for such a violent explosion and burn, the bike didn't move at all

I’m quite happy buying and living with one from a recognised brand, with a distribution channel, QC, testing etc.

i wouldn’t touch one from FB market place, the cheap end of Amazon or home built one with yours.

Chap was on the radio the other month saying how his ‘quite expensive’ ebike had caught fire. When asked how much, ‘oh, nearly £600!’

Like anything decent quality, properly designed and manufactured to the relevant standards products are going to be far safer than home brew lash ups made of substandard parts from AliExpress and the like. Read plenty of eMTB users moaning about reliability issues of their chariots on here, but no explosions that I can recall. These tend to be at the higher cost/quality end of the spectrum.

New York are bringing in regulations to make sure shops and resellers are adhering to safety standards, as a response to fires and deaths. One of the major hazards is them being left on charge in the hallways of flats, which then blocks escape routes. https://www.nytimes.com/article/ebike-laws-nyc.html

Was it a DIY e-bike?

It's always a cheap shite one that causes these fires. I get adverts for them all the time on facebook, generic sounding companies like 'Ebikedirect' or 'electricbikesale' and a price tag of 500 or 600 pound for a complete bike with an Alixpress battery and motor fitted.

Or people who buy chargers off ebay that aren't made for that specific battery, or batteries with no in-built protection etc etc.

Needs massively regulated and checked by trading standards and customs, these devices shouldn't even make it into the country in the first place.

Does make you wonder what would have happened had that bike been parked up in a crowded commuter train!

Will we get to a stage where e-bikes are banned from public transport or does that open to many questions regarding other batteries in the likes of phones and laptops?

E bikes and e scooters are banned on Spanish trains fwiw.

There is a dodgy DIY e-beach cruiser at work, can't physically pedal it, and our Security haven't done anything about it, despite banning all e-scooters. The two batteries on it are massive, with exposed cables everywhere.

Yup, it's always the cheap and nasty ones often being used with a generic charger bought inline because they've been nicked and sold on without one.

I'm happy charging my Bosch powered cargo bike at home but I wouldn't let homebrew one over the threshold.

This is starting to become a real problem for bike shops as well as many are struggling to get insurance if they touch Ebikes.

There is a dodgy DIY e-beach cruiser at work, can’t physically pedal it, and our Security haven’t done anything about it, despite banning all e-scooters. The two batteries on it are massive, with exposed cables everywhere.

Sounds more like a health and safety issue than security, although presumably the security guys would be told to monitor for its presence.

The problem is, these 'DIY'/dodgy imports will get genuine proper e-bikes banned from places, including public transport.

Come on, you know how this goes. Nothing gets done until some Deliveroo lash-ups explodes on a train, killing/injuring people, at which point unwieldy and poorly implemented legislation bans e-bikes of every kind, enforced by poorly trained railway staff with little understanding of the distinctions between different kinds of electric two wheeled zimmerbikes. Better safe than sorry!

Will we get to a stage where e-bikes are banned from public transport or does that open to many questions regarding other batteries in the likes of phones and laptops?

escooters and the like are already banned so it wouldn’t surprise me if it came to pass. From the rail companies pov it would be an easy control measure to implement.

Main thing that’s stopping me getting an ebike, is that work won’t let me park it in the building.

E-bikes can be ridden to our new offices but not charged onsite. The fallout is already happening. They’ll be off public transport next, like E-scooters already are.

A quick glance at Facebook marketplace locally.

As an estimate/anecdote:

- 20% are 'known brand'

- 40% some oddball Chinese made bike, mainly with throttle, wide tyres, massive battery, maybe folding etc

- 40% 'home brew's or retrofit kits

It's the wild west out there...

e.g.

– 20% are ‘known brand’

– 40% some oddball Chinese made bike, mainly with throttle, wide tyres, massive battery, maybe folding etc

– 40% ‘home brew’s or retrofit kits

And if you look at the costs of each I imagine the 'know brand' is significantly more expensive than the other 80%

Is that because stuff that doesnt blow up is more expensive, or the know brands are overly expensive. When you look at cars it would now appear with new people coming in to the market that the main brands have been over charging for their products.

Kind of related but some tracks are refusing EVs for track days etc now due to the risk of batteries blowing up etc.

I work for citylink/megabus coaches,
E scooters or Ebikes aren’t allowed on any of our buses.
As above, it’s the cheapest shite ones that are screwing it for everyone else.

If you were one of the big known brands you'd be lobbying MPs to get dodgy imports stopped at customs. It must be massively damaging to their business model to have this sort of negative publicity about 'ebikes' as they all get lumped together.

Banning then from public transport is very short sighted with net zero targets and all that.

It annoys me that we have a 15mph speed limit for them as well because the kind of people that will use an ebike dangerously at normal road speeds (i.e. 30mph) will derestrict them anyway. Having a limit half the speed of normal traffic is surely more dangerous for the rider than being able to keep up with traffic.

We need proper regulation for the import of any device with batteries to ensure it has been designed, built and tested to be safe. The government aren't interested as it might stop some of their donors making a profit.

[cynic]the EU sets standards for testing, the UK govt allow in a load of product in w/o verifying any testing was done because surveillance authorities have been cut right back like anything else that was useful but not privatised and profitable, the govt and media use the unsafe products to discredit a category that threatens the anti-LTN and pro-motoring stance they're dug into a trench over[/cynic]

There's been talk of new UK kitemarks and similar for e-bikes to address this risk.. all the while there are ISO standards for e-bikes and batteries, chargers, BS standards for plugs, etc. But you can order a fat tyre folding full suspension e-bike from China, low ~30% Anti-Dumping Duty on plenty of them, make a nice margin online .. easy. They'll send you the test certification pdfs too, no need to pay up $25,000 for ISO testing yourself.

E-bikes and e-scooters aren’t allowed on either train company that operates from Sutton, or their stations.

However, the likelihood of seeing any staff at a station is very low and them bothering to challenge someone is even lower.

I work for citylink/megabus coaches,

E scooters or Ebikes aren’t allowed on any of our buses

Bugger.

That's just kayboshed plans for a tour of Galloway in June....

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It annoys me that we have a 15mph speed limit for them as well because the kind of people that will use an ebike dangerously at normal road speeds (i.e. 30mph) will derestrict them anyway. Having a limit half the speed of normal traffic is surely more dangerous for the rider than being able to keep up with traffic.

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I think the law I broadly fine as it stands. The law says meet the standards and you have the same rights as a bike every where, with no qualification, age or insurance requirements . That’s roads, cycle paths bridleways trail centres. I’d be very unhappy to be meeting 30mph bikes in any of these situations. I’d be suprised if there were any situations where 30mo was safer than 15 mpg. Legal e-scooters are available that do 30mph but they need a license, insurance and type approval. Crucially there are only allowed where cars are allowed

'E-bikes and e-scooters aren’t allowed on either train company that operates from Sutton, or their stations'

E-bikes are allowed, e-scooters aren't.

Might change soon, of course.

GWR allow ebikes on trains, but not escooters, anyway, the issue isn't ebikes, or escooters, it's the lithium ion battery packs, your phone could burst into flames if the wrong conditions are achieved during the day, same with a lot more appliances, overall i think the reliability is pretty good to be fair, and improving, just need to eradicate cheap and nasty cells being used in packs.

We have two solar batteries under the stairs, a working smoke detector and an old climbing rope under the bed.

Any battery can malfunction if its damaged or faulty.

Yeah, and they have both a fuel and oxidiser, add to that containment and you don't really want to be anywhere near one if there's a thermal runaway or the likes occurring.

How would they even enforce an ebike ban on trains when some of them now look almost identical to normal bikes?

Clearly the only solution is to tighten up on sales of the dodgy kits and batteries (and surrons while they're at it)

e.g. Raleigh Trace...

The electrical battery/storage world got a kick up the arse 2 weeks ago with the release of guidance for home storage battery systems. They are now recommending all batteries to be fitted outside. And in an amazing statement, Givenergy, a large supplier of domestic batteries have said you can carry on fitting them in the attic and inside your houses:

The new guidance for home storage is available here (need to register, but it’s free):
https://knowledge.bsigroup.com/products/electrical-installations-protection-against-fire-of-battery-energy-storage-systems-for-use-in-dwellings-specification?version=standard

And, a good video about the type of fires that occur from small domestic batteries, up to cars going off, it’s riddled with ads, but is worth watching if you ever encounter a problem with one of these batteries (basically, get away from it):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIXTP-TgPEw

Regarding public transport and lithium batteries; the ferry & shipping industry are very concerned around EV's as a whole. Norwegian ferry co have banned all electric vehicles from it's ferries;

https://rina.org.uk/publications/the-naval-architect/ferry-companies-grapple-with-rising-threat-of-ev-fires/

The electrical battery/storage world got a kick up the arse 2 weeks ago with the release of guidance for home storage battery systems. They are now recommending all batteries to be fitted outside.

Indeed. In a sweeping generalisation without even so much as making reference to the chemistry withint he batteries.

nMc or lithium thionyl chloride then yeah I'm on board. LiFe4Po then less so.

"Indeed. In a sweeping generalisation without even so much as making reference to the chemistry withint he batteries.
nMc or lithium thionyl chloride then yeah I’m on board. LiFe4Po then less so.”

It’s not just the chemistry involved, they are not being secured properly, and have fallen from attic mounts through the ceiling. Gas is another hazard from many battery types, and it isnt being addressed properly, if a cold attic, like the majority in the UK (certainly England and Wales), the Fitters have not been adding ventilation for the batteries, thinking the natural air flow in the attic space is enough, it isnt, some gases given off are heavier than air, so permeate down into the bedrooms. There is also a lot of debate ongoing about the quality of the installatiosn being put in. Little thought is given to shock and fire protection of the unprotected supplies from the PV arrays. 500 volts + isnt unusual, pull a connector apart at that voltage and you are likely to cause an arc which could start a fire. DC systems are far worse for this than the usual AC household supply.

Most of the issues from cheap ebike fires, is the fault of the charger IMO. They don't have the clever electronic battery monitoring or protection.

I've not heard of an ebike fire from a reputable brand.

Here's a generalisation on ebike users I've seen over the last two days, they're either minted old juns, mintued young uns or have a waistline wider than their handlebars (or a combination of the above).

This is without mentioning that their wearing all the clothes they own when it's the only the 4th sunny day in Scotland of the year.

I'm just jealous as I'm piss poor and have to make do with a heavily worn 6 year old bike that I can't afford to replace.

Anyway, ignore me, it's all about the smiles, blah, blah, blah (I may have had beer or two).

I don't know the chemistry that leads to "some gases given off are heavier than air,"

Could you explain or give links?

Gas is another hazard from many battery types

What gas is given off by liFe4po? *

*It does gas I'm aware of it.

But most of the rest appears to stem from poor instalatjon.

Your last point surely lends it's self to putting the system in a place you don't routinely visit

A shake up of the racket self cert that is the MCS would be more effective. Stop diy fit outs.

Ebikes, turns out the E stands for "explosive".

“ I don’t know the chemistry that leads to “some gases given off are heavier than air,” “

It’s explained in the YT vid attached above. Fire personnel were approaching the batteries, thinking it was smoke, it wasnt, it was an explosive gas which is heavier than air, there are also gases given off that are lighter than air. Its all explained in the video.
For home use, lead acid are still used in many installs, these give off hydrogen which is very explosive, if in an attic without the correct ventilation, it could accumulate and cause an explosion.

For home use, lead acid are still used in many installs, these give off hydrogen which is very explosive, if in an attic without the correct ventilation, it could accumulate and cause an explosion.

So the correct approach is a blanket ban ?

"For home use, lead acid are still used in many installs, these give off hydrogen which is very explosive, if in an attic without the correct ventilation, it could accumulate and cause an explosion.”

"So the correct approach is a blanket ban ?”

Thats the comment that was brought up on the IET (writers of electrical regulations) forum yesterday. Yes, without various precautions, they are saying no batteries inside, and your PV panels can be so dangerous that you really dont want their connections in the house. One Rep from the IET has replied, a number of times, after peole have commented that the new guidelines are rather too strict, that ‘well, you had the chance to comment when we published the first draft, so we could have changed it if it was brought to our attention’. Thats a shite answer, and one that has roundly been condemned, if the people who wrote it had used a sound evidence base, then we could go along with it, but they havent, and someone pointed out yesterday that he cannot have his PV batteries now in his attached garage , but can sit his electric car in the same space, with a far larger battery, and charge that up overnight without going against any guideline.
My views are that, yes, there are some terrible installs with PV and batteries, this has come about due to past Government grants, lack of correctly trained staff, and the greed of Companies jumping on the bandwagon to get the grants. There is little regulation, so they continue to fit shoddy installations. A well designed PV/Battery system should have no safety problems, though after watching the video linked earlier in this thread, I’d be siting my batteries outside the fabric of the house, in fact I think that will be the way forward anyway, Tesla now supply batteries that are fixed to the outside wall, they measure around 1m x 1m x 100mm, and dont look too out of place.

Tesla now supply batteries that are fixed to the outside wall, they measure around 1m x 1m x 100mm, and dont look too out of place

Tesla always have and frankly their batteries should always be outside. Theirs are prime bad chemistry for in house siting.

Charging batteries give off hydrogen gas, which is lighter than air.

Edit:- a simple fan that vents to the outside is enough to mitigate this.

Charging batteries give off hydrogen gas, which is lighter than air.

Edit:- a simple fan that vents to the outside is enough to mitigate this.

The 90's called they want their lead acid batteries back.

If your nmc or life4po (common workable solar battery systems)are emitting hydrogen don't hang around.

Looks like they had a lucky escape, seven bikes in one room according to local radio of which four were on charge

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-68918862

There is a proper dodgy home brew 'thing' in our cycle parking at work, and my employers won't do anything about it - they know who uses it, but have a ban on all scooters, but not illegal fully powered bikes. If it goes up, it will take the multi-storey car park with it - we had a diesel go on fire about 18 months ago, and part of the car park is still un-useable

seven bikes in one room according to local radio of which four were on charge

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-68918862/blockquote >
Theres going to be some serious delays to Just Eat deliveries in that part of Sheffield.

At least the roads....pavements...lanes are going to be a bit safer now.

 

There's been a major, fatal, fire at a battery plant in South Korea - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crgggmeyjj7o  as a result of exploding cells.

They seem to be, potentially, pretty volatile bits of kit.

The BBC did a series of documentaries looking at hidden dangers in homes at various times in history (such a deaths from some crazy electrical installations when it was a an exciting and emerging technology). I wonder whether, in a 100 years or so, there'll be a similar documentary looking at the 2020s and deaths from exploding batteries (and probably selfie deaths too).

The BBC have some pretty frightening footage of the fire starting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-69147964

There is a proper dodgy home brew ‘thing’ in our cycle parking at work, and my employers won’t do anything about it

Someone on here - sorry, forgot who - keeps recommending home-brew conversions, 'I've had mine for 50 years and it's never blown up etc'. My question for the panel is: are there any standards at all for aftermarket conversion kits?

I get that there are 'reputable' battery and conversion sellers out there, but are they subject to any actual, enforceable, regulation or is it as much of a jungle as it appears to be? I'm not overly convinced by 'my conversion has never blown up, therefore they're okay' anecdotal stuff, no offence etc.

“I get that there are ‘reputable’ battery and conversion sellers out there, but are they subject to any actual, enforceable, regulation or is it as much of a jungle as it appears to be? I’m not overly convinced by ‘my conversion has never blown up, therefore they’re okay’ anecdotal stuff, no offence etc. “

It’s a minefield! Stick with well known makes, and reputable sellers,and your battery should be OK. Buy from Temu/Aliexpress (I think ebay and Amazon can be added to that) and all bets are off. They’ll be imported from China for £10, and sold to you for £100, with no guarantee, apart from ‘these are really good’. It's the batteries AND chargers that cause the trouble. You could have a good battery, lots of R+D and testing to ensure it’s safe, then connect up a £10 charger, which doesnt have any of the current control and sensing during charging, so it just chucks loads of pwoer into your good quality battery, which needs to be trickle charged with a small amount of electric over a longer time, so both the battery and the charger will overheat, eventually the battery cannot keep up in chucking the power into its cells, so overheats and splits, causing a lithium fire. Its the same with a good charger and a cheap battery, the charger senses what needs to be put in, but the contacts internally are too small to take that amount, so overheat, then bang. This was happening 15-20 years with the first bike lights with separate li-ion batteries, people on here were charging them up with the batteries in a tin while charging. The problem has upscaled now, with drive batteries 20x bigger compared to a light battery.

alanl speaks the truth. I can remember an ebay charger exploding in my kitchen, fortunately little damage was caused. I was charging some repurposed cells from an old laptop. There was copper spattered around the room.

it’s a minefield! Stick with well known makes, and reputable sellers,and your battery should be OK.

which would these be or are you having to stick to buying whole bikes?

It does surprise me that rail companies are still letting obvious lash-up ebikes onto trains given the publicity this issue is getting, and the fact they've already banned e-scooters for precisely this reason.

which would these be or are you having to stick to buying whole bikes?

Yes, that's basically my concern. How do you distinguish between someone selling cheap batteries and chargers behind the front of a slick-ish website and a genuinely reliable supplier? In the absence of meaningful regulation, it's pretty much impossible to tell.

What's to stop me from buying a load of cheapo batteries and chargers, badging them up as 'BWD Inc. Charging Solution' kit and selling them off at a substantial profit bar the small shred of human decency and concern from others that lurks deep within my dark soul?

montgomeryFree Member
It does surprise me that rail companies are still letting obvious lash-up ebikes onto trains given the publicity this issue is getting, and the fact they’ve already banned e-scooters for precisely this reason.

Your average conductor isn't going to know/care what a good ebike is versus a burny one - it'd end up being a blanket ban just like the scooters

I've still got a few older 'lights' that use li-po packs, but I use the packs with removeable batteries (i.e. you supply your own). I also use a smart charger that charges each cell and gives you a read out. My Fenix light takes two li-po's and I charge once a week.

Thing is, with these batteries, it takes just a small short circuit to cause issues as they pack a punch. I remember pulling a cheap pack apart some years ago as a cell had gone bad (the pack wouldn't charge) - let's say it didn't take much to get one of the cells to start smoking as I cut the connections.

I've had a few cheap packs go bad, and it's usually one cell that goes. This can be checked in a smart charger once the pack is disassembled. The good cells would be used in torches.

Multiply this by 40 or 50 cells in a big pack, especially cheap ones, and you get multiple dead cells that eventually will go pop. That's the issue. Once one goes bang, the lot soon follow

“which would these be or are you having to stick to buying whole bikes?”

If I was in the market for a decent conversion, I’d start by looking at somewhere like the link below. I wouldnt start on ebay, find one at £50, then google to get it at £30 from Aliexpress.
Buying whole bikes is probably the best solution. However, cost will be an issue for most people, but it is a better, integrated solution, that should be guaranteed, especially by the well known Brands, the product should work well from getting it out of the box, and give a good few years life. Buying the components separately, or as a kit could work out, but it would never be as good as a purpose built e-bike.
It’s all compromises. Cannot afford a £2000 new e-bike, but can afford a £500 conversion, then go for the conversion, it’ll work, hopefully, and if bought from a reputable Seller, should be guaranteed, and, be safe. Pay £200 for the same thing, and your guarantee will be minimal, and I doubt there has been any type approval testing, so safety is not a priority. It’s those type of batteries/chargers that cause the fires, mostly.
https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/buyers-guide/best-e-bike-conversion-kits

Your average conductor isn’t going to know/care what a good ebike is versus a burny one – it’d end up being a blanket ban just like the scooters

That's what bothers me, as someone who uses trains to facilitate bike packing trips (and cycle commuting). In the not too distant future I anticipate having to open up frame bags to demonstrate there are no batteries inside...

Thing is, it's easy to ban scooters, because they are all illegal, apart from hire scheme ones and they shouldn't be going on trains. Bikes are a different matter because of the mix of legal and illegal ones.

let’s say it didn’t take much to get one of the cells to start smoking as I cut the connections.

Had a guy at one of our RC meets who welded his battery to ESC connector together (running a 4S pack in 8th scale).

His solution was to get a large pair of side cutters and go straight through both power cables leading from connector to battery. The flash was enough to weld the side cutters to the pair of cables, thankfully not to the car as well, so he had a handy handle to use to get the flaming battery pack into the sand box.