[Closed] Dual crown enduro - the future or OTT and marketing

I suspect more manufacturers will release dual crown forks, I reckon (and I think others who are more clued up on this than me have also suggested) that the amount of travel on a front fork now that can be had, seems to cry out for a dual-crown as there is so much flex in the system now - anything over 150mm is my uneducated thinking...I think Chris Porter has suggested anything over 160mm...

One of the issues with earlier dual-crowns was the limited steering, I'm guessing that with geometry tweaks of today, this would be less of an issue perhaps?

Marketing will be able to sell anything and manufactures need to shift stuff to make profit. What better way than to tell you that you need the next best thing and the next best thing of course is bigger, longer, more rad. (They wont mention it will be heavier)

I've been sucked into the more travel = better riding in the past. But now realise that I'm no Gee Atherton, so 140-160 is more than enough. I can still pedal it to the top and then plummet down again.

For normal riders (even adventurous ones) I reckon the average Enduro bike with modern geometry and good kit is far more capable that the riders ever need. They can all handle DH tracks now. Sure a WC DH track you will need a proper DH bike, but most of us wont be riding one of those.

Also I wonder the if the extra weight may mean you need an uplift, then why not just get a full on DH bike ?

I think other brands will follow but I don't see it replacing current single crown models, it's probably more likely to be a race only sort of thing as I don't see it as necessary for the average rider. I know I wouldn't want dual crown even if it was the same weight as a single crown fork

They wont mention it will be heavier

it's lighter than a single crown Zeb

Dual crown forks make total sense to me, especially as formula have shown they can make one relatively light weight. Although I suppose all that extra machining is bound to cost a chunk more than the usual cast/forged(?) single crown

I think the fact that World Cup downhillers are still racing on RockShox forks with 35mm stanchions shows that endlessly increasing stanchion diameter isn’t the only way to achieve a desired stiffness

Make your stanchions as thick as you like, the assembly’s only as stiff as the weakest link which is surely the press fit interface between the steerer and the crown? Which also happens to be the area with the largest bending moment acting on it

Looking at geometry as well, you’ll usually get an extra ~10mm of travel from a dual crown fork than a single crown with equivalent axle to crown measurement. More travel is more GOODNESS surely?!

Didn't we just do a big thread on this? I made my feeling known but can't be bothered to type it up again.

Basically, I think single crown forks have gone a generation too far and there's nowhere else to go. Dual crowns from Fox and Rock Shox are surely inevitable.

marketing will be king - all you people on 27.5, 29ers, plastic, eebs - dual crown back once again..

Inevitable is not equal to better, though.

Didn’t we just do a big thread on this?

Pretty sure we did. I posted some Trimnell fork photos, for people thinking lack of a steerer on triple crowns was a new thing.

Didn’t we just do a big thread on this?

Yup, opinions were shared and disagreement ensued...

Like it or now Dual crowns will be the next "reinvented old new thing"...
Fast forward a decade and it'll be "have you seen these amazing new single crown forks?!?!!"

I've owned Boxxers thanks, they were great for what I was using them for, but I'm not really doing DH any more and recent single crowns are more than up to general trail riding and the odd uplift day. Plus I don't really miss trying to sell frames with those two tell tale dents just behind the head tube...
But I'm sure everyone's Carbon dandyhorses will survive the coming fork fad completely unscathed*...

(*this is Sarcasm).

Inevitable is not equal to better, though.

Welcome to the bike industry. Come here often?

marketing will be king

Yep. But I actually think we should have switched to dual crowns rather than the latest generation of giant single crowns which seem another step in the wrong direction to me.

Bindun as said.

Dual crowns don't need as big a stanchion since they dont have to be as stiff meaning they can be lighter. I'm wondering what I could do with some 170mm 32 Super T's, probably a fair amount since time has proven you don't need a coil in each leg or two rebound controllers. Plus Stratos proved (if nothing else) that you can make a crown with decent clearance.

Plus I don’t really miss trying to sell frames with those two tell tale dents just behind the head tube…

Just about to sell one myself, my own stupid fault for putting the bumpers in the line of the hydroformed bit rather than a gusset. You learn that one quickly.

One of the issues with earlier dual-crowns was the limited steering, I’m guessing that with geometry tweaks of today, this would be less of an issue perhaps?

do longer wheelbases mean that a bigger bar turn is needed for the same cornering radius?

plus fatter headtubes, and bigger stanchions I think it would be more of an issue, not less.

Having spent over a year riding a fox 40 I'm all for it, if done correctly like the Formula seems to be. It's a tinkerer's wet dream, basically adjustable everything, even offset if you've got the cash. What needs to be considered is the amount of stiffness. My journey with the (shortened) 40 ended when I realised it was too stiff laterally. I had a very plush set up (Avalanche damper) that would ping and deflect, also giving little feel in corners.

squirrelking
Free Member

Dual crowns don’t need as big a stanchion since they dont have to be as stiff meaning they can be lighter.

It's not so simple though. Dual crowns add stiffness at the top, but they don't add anything at the bottom, and they actually stress the bottom end more. So if you go with a weaker stanchion that'll affect the whole fork not just the top.

And tbh I reckon the bottom ends are pretty much built to be as strong as the bottom end wants to be, so I don't think that dual crown will allow much if any weight saving there. Do you want a top end that's as stiff as a boxxer and a bottom end that's as stiff as a Pike? Probably not.

In terms of weight and stiffness I suspect it's mostly about how inefficient a single crown and steerer is- it's got to be built very strong to deal with a long travel fork. These 38s etc are probably pushing the limits pretty hard.

Whatever happened to the MRP Bartlett? Never ever saw a review. Anywhere. I used one on my supreme sx and it was great for 2018.

It'll be on ebikes then onto real bikes

1.8 headtubes were just supposed to be for aesthetics on ebikes, but there's a new regular bike with one now too

A bit of an aside but how do DC forks account for a variation in Head tube lengths? Do you just and stack to the bars or do you adjust the clamping height of the top crown? (And have excess stanchion sticking out)

Ref adjustment - bit of both

Depends on the crown, my Supers have adjustment in both which allows me to set the a-c as well.

@northwind I know its not the entire story but as pointed out 35mm Boxxers have been doing just fine for years now. Plus remember the bigger you make your stanchion the bigger effect it has on steering lock.

I've got a 180mm boxxer on my main bike, had a 170mm vorsprung coil converted 36 before. Weight is very similar and axle to crown basically identical. The extra stiffness is really noticeable when riding through rock gardens etc with much less deflection. Not that all stiffness is good by any means (I've gone metal 31.8 bars to get less stiffness there) but this does feel better I think, should have a zeb to try as a comparison soon.

squirrelking
Free Member

@northwind I know its not the entire story but as pointed out 35mm Boxxers have been doing just fine for years now. Plus remember the bigger you make your stanchion the bigger effect it has on steering lock.

Sure, but the 35mm boxxer chassis isn't light- the stanchions and lowers are strong, and there's loads of bushing overlap (which is another way of adding stiffness, but needs longer stanchions). The weight difference between a current Fox 40 and a Boxxer is mostly in the damper and the 40's pinch axle and air bleeders.

My main concern about this fork is the angle of that mudguard, and that it's secured by cable ties.

For an EWS, I think they are moving that way and there are advantages.

Ohhh! Took a look at the link at the top. Formula forks actually come that purple colour! I just assumed Joe Barnes had it done as a jokey nod to H&I Council 😲

Rockshox were doing this years ago with the dual crown Sid.

If you out zero (or even negative) offset in the legs you can put more in the crown to eliminate the turning circle issues

If you were designing a long travel mountain bike fork from scratch, I find it hard to believe you'd use a single crown design. The biggest bending moment under braking, landing drops etc is right where the steerer joins the crown - dual crown is the better solution.

For those worrying about restricted steering, dont tempt the bike industry to introduce a new wider front hub standard for the sake of a few degrees, you know they will 😀

I’m seriously tempted by a set of these for my Geometron, I’d like to MORC my Grip2 36’s but they are 27.5 and by the time I’ve bought new lower and the MORC kit, these would be lighter and cheaper.

the future or OTT and marketing

All of the above and also the past.

I see: Orange, big welds, box section and dual crown

I smell: The heady scent of 2001

15-20 year cycles? 10 years ago we were getting set to re-brand rigid 90s bikes now with bigger wheels, tyres and tubeless. Also skinny-tubed rigid MTBs/ATBs with drop bars, alt bars and straight bars.

The gravel/doitall/bikepacker/ATB won’t be de-rigeur again until at least early 2030s. Meanwhile we have some big air, big shredding, monster-dropoffs, many-gy drinks and some radicool graphics to get through…

If you were designing a long travel mountain bike fork from scratch, I find it hard to believe you’d use a single crown design.

Yep.

For those worrying about restricted steering, dont tempt the bike industry to introduce a new wider front hub standard for the sake of a few degrees, you know they will

Main disadvantage to a wider front hub (now that 29" wheels are accepted, at least on the front) could be acceptance friction. Again - if you were designing a mountain bike wheel system from scratch would you settle on only 10% wider hubs than whippy steel road bikes had been using a few decades ago? Cunningham bikes had a 120mm front hub for rim brakes. Jones bikes have used dual crown / non-cantilevered forks and wider 135 or 150mm hubs / dishless wheels to good effect for a while now.
I'm not saying they need to be wider on Enduro bikes but the advantages are there, don't see any disadvantages.

The benefits of a dual crown fork really appeal, but I can’t get over the possibility of writing off a frame in a crash. Is that a realistic possibility or am I worrying unnecessarily?

but I can’t get over the possibility of writing off a frame in a crash.

Some bikes are already built to take triple clamp forks.
Id have no worries about bolting one on my Geometron as its been built to be strong enough for them.

The benefits of a dual crown fork really appeal, but I can’t get over the possibility of writing off a frame in a crash. Is that a realistic possibility or am I worrying unnecessarily?

I assumed that period ended when manufacturers were forced to make frames that didn't snap if you looked at them funny and crack with each change in wind direction.

If you out zero (or even negative) offset in the legs you can put more in the crown to eliminate the turning circle issues

The trouble with that is stanchion overlap, look at the 180mm travel fox forks and the lowers/stanchions extend well below the axle. So you would then need to be adding 60mm or so to the crown's to get back to the ~30mm current lowers have. Probably doable but very wierd looking.

Perhapse it'll be less of an issue with 29ers though.

I assumed that period ended when manufacturers were forced to make frames that didn’t snap if you looked at them funny and crack with each change in wind direction.

Presume the issue is more the crown's putting big dents into the frame at full lock in a crash.

Solvable with big rubber bumpers but would still need some rethinking of tube shapes by the manufacturers.

Presume the issue is more the crown’s putting big dents into the frame at full lock in a crash.

Solvable with big rubber bumpers but would still need some rethinking of tube shapes by the manufacturers.

Yes, this is my concern, rather than head tubes snapping off or anything like that. I wouldn’t be comfortable hitting a carbon frame with a rubber mallet so not sure if the rubber bumpers really solve the issue.

Elans and Lahars were all using DC forks and from memory none suffered from it. I get where you're coming from but it's not that great a concern. You could probably mitigate with longer lugs on the head tube.

Maybe Trek are ahead of the game by already fitting frames with the knock block?
Other factor I’d read (but not sure relevance to a lot of riders) is that longer stanchion on spring side would give more volume for air spring, especially on the negative side. Would also allow lower pressures to be run. Seen a weird fork on Pinkbike with a half upper crown and long air spring designed to do this.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/intend-bandit-one-and-a-half-crowns-downduro.html

Who is going to break the barrier and release the first £2000 dual crown enduro fork?

I'm betting on Fox. Double the kashima, double the price innit. Simple economics.

Who is going to break the barrier and release the first £2000 dual crown enduro fork?

I mean, the Intend Bandit is €1999 with 1.5 crowns, the Infinity USD DC is only 215g heavier than a Zeb, adjustable down from 215mm travel and €2099. Add duty and such and it's probably over the line.

Three guys I know already have dual crowns on their geometrons and have had no issues with turning the bike or denting the frame when they've crashed. Pretty sure those concerns are quite overblown.

It's been a long long time since I owned a bike with DC, but I rented a DH bike in 2019 to try to relive my form glory DH days (there was never any glory, not even for a second). Short of perhaps trying to do a track stand in the carpark, running out of turning circle isn't really a thing.

I think, rather than the knee-jerk reaction when someone tries something 'new' that it's all a load of marketing bullshit and 'the industry' is going to force us all to buy DC forks like we're nothing but slaves to the advertising, take it at it's merit. So it's a 170mm fork that's lighter than a Zeb, sounds good to me. Whether that's because it's a super tricked out prototype or down to fundamentals only time will tell I guess.

Spesh of course tried with their proprietary Future Shock forks 15 years ago, they didn't fail because they were DC, they failed because they horribly unreliable.

I'm sure there would be some benefits for Fox and RS too, it must be getting harder to justify R&D for DH forks when they're probably selling fewer and fewer to the public, a DC fork that punters will actually buy that's closely related to the ones used in the Halo race series sounds like a winner to me.

tetrode

Three guys I know already have dual crowns on their geometrons and have had no issues with turning the bike or denting the frame when they’ve crashed. Pretty sure those concerns are quite overblown.

There's a world of difference between a Geometron and a carbon Yeti - Geometron were always built with triple clamps in mind. Yetis have been known to shear headtubes clean off with just regular forks

Looked like Lachlan Blair wasn't using them this weekend from his IG pics?

I see the advantages though. Back when I had boxxers I never understood Totems and the like as they were practically as heavy and looked very flexible. They're clearly searching for more stiffness hence, 38s and Zebs with their wider tubes.

turning circle really isnt an issue when riding and never had an issue with DC's although I never rode uphill so tight uphill bends may be an issue but you're not buying DC's to set uphill KOM's.

Zero stack anglesets on their way as well.

Yetis have been known to shear headtubes clean off with just regular forks

In which case they get filed under shite bikes no right thinking person should buy.

I’m sure there would be some benefits for Fox and RS too

of course because "mtb", RS actually had the perfect fork years ago in the Boxxer Ride U-turn. The U-turn wouldn't be needed, but it was just a slightly lower travel Boxxer Team otherwise

Knock block on some Trek bikes limits how far you can turn the bars possibly more than dc forks and it doesn't seem to have been an issue

the speccy enduro evo expert came with a (stock) 180mm boxxer a few years ago. Looked mint too..

Dual crown forks make so much sense on bikes like that. I for one welcome our new triple clamped overlords.

The weight of a dual crown would make for slow inclines.

I used to ride 5" & 7" Jnr Ts, and Shiver DCs. But only on bikes/rides where I would pedal a few times then drop off something, or point downhill and bounce around like in a pinball machine. I'd normally be walking up any hill I needed to get up.

I welcome it. I'll just need to get out more. No more squeezing CSUs.

The weight of a dual crown would make for slow inclines.

Why?

Do you realise that the Shiver DC came out 20 years ago?

If I had to guess at the kind of bike you were riding back then I'd suggest it probably wasn't just the fork which made it unpleasant for climbing.

The weight of a dual crown would make for slow inclines.

you do realise the Formulas that kicked off this thread are lighter the the RS/Fox single crown equivalents?

Plus, Shivers were heavy even for their time. My Super T's are about 3kg but that's fully coil sprung and HSCV in both legs. As I said earlier in the thread, one leg is essentially redundant so you could modernise it just by moving spring and control to seperate legs and save a load of weight that way. The 7" frame it's on also weighs more than my "new" DH bike.

you do realise the Formulas that kicked off this thread are lighter the the RS/Fox single crown equivalents?

That would require actually reading instead of an immediate knee-jerk reaction!

I'm sure when 29ers were first introduced people were harping on about it being all OTT and marketing balls, same with rear suspension, disc brakes etc. It's always the case.

Since I live quite close to Geometron HQ and they're the Formula distributors in the UK, I am absolutely going to see if I can demo their enduro dual crown once it's out.

I seem to remember having a dual-crown and light fork in 2007… Specialized e150SL anyone! Post-tuning, they were a well-damped, predictable fork that resisted twist. Seems like we are going back full-circle, somewhat.

mrdestructo
Free Member

The weight of a dual crown would make for slow inclines.

Nah. We're talking pretty small amounts here, no different from say going from a 34 to a 36, or fitting a coil, you don't suddenly go oooooh this climb is so slow.

mashr
Free Member

you do realise the Formulas that kicked off this thread are lighter the the RS/Fox single crown equivalents?

Is it? It's been described as "lighter than some single crown fork", but are they equivalents?

mashr
Free Member

RS actually had the perfect fork years ago in the Boxxer Ride U-turn. The U-turn wouldn’t be needed, but it was just a slightly lower travel Boxxer Team otherwise

It was, let's be honest, a bit shit. The first lyrik came along what, 2 years later and was a ridiculously better fork

Seems like we are going back full-circle, somewhat

Not possible, due to the stanchions, silly.

Is it? It’s been described as “lighter than some single crown fork”, but are they equivalents?

Its lighter than the 38mm forks from RS and Fox. Whether you consider it equivalent is of course up to you but it offers the same travel, and probably better stiffness.

Northwind
Full Member
It was, let’s be honest, a bit shit. The first lyrik came along what, 2 years later and was a ridiculously better fork

I think your Lyrik-tinted sunnies are getting in the way. It was a (MoCo, including Floodgate) Boxxer Team with 22mm less travel, it was great. I had the Team and the other half had the Ride. I've seen reports of the U-turns self adjusting, but as ours never did it I can't really comment. Not sure why you think the, also MoCo, Lyrik was better?

OTOH if you're thinking of the original/older version of the Ride, then you are onto something

mashr
Free Member

I think your Lyrik-tinted sunnies are getting in the way. It was a (MoCo, including Floodgate) Boxxer Team with 22mm less travel, it was great. I had the Team and the other half had the Ride.

Nah, I had the Ride (and a late model 32 Team in my 224), it was an ancient chassis with a basic damper in, even with the revised rebound the moco wasn't really up to the job. The lyrik with mission control was like a fork from the future in comparison. (and of course was a very close relative of the first 35mm Boxxer).

Put it another way, that first lyrik still stands up as a good fork today. The chassis is super heavy but the damper was superb. The disappontment when I "upgraded" to a 35mm charger Pike was huge, so I went back to the Lyriks and kept them right up until I went 29er. And I'm still using a set of mission control Boxxers so there's no rose tinted glasses there.

Course, the 2-step air exploded instantly on literally every lyrik but you can't have everything.