[Closed] DT Swiss Squorx nipple - spoke length.

This site would suggest you are right, although it is for a 15 mm nipple
https://wheelbuilder.com/dt-swiss-squorx-pro-head-nipples/

Brilliant, cheers jimw.

You need to use a nipple with the right profile to work with the PHR washers - standard nipples won’t work. Any of the Pro Head or Squorx lines work.

https://www.dtswiss.com/en/wheels/wheels-technology/phr-technology

Rims come with washers and nipples, I'm just going to build what is supplied. Quite excited actually, it's been ages since I last made a set.

Ah - I read it wrongly - thought you wanted to use regular nipples.

If you use DT’s spoke calculator, it assumes the Squorx nipples are being used on the relevant rims and calculates the lengths accordingly.

Useful tip, ta. I'll have to go and measure up the hubs then I can order the spokes.

DT Swiss squorx nipples are a 15mm nipple - they are the same as a 12mm nipple with extra on the back side.

This shouldn't necessarily change your calculation, although if your spokes have enough thread (most do) you can run them a mm or 2 longer to use some of that extra threaded section. For reasons I cannot tell you DT don't calculate this for you.

The 15mm Squorx nipple is unique for DT in such that it won't effect your spoke calcs vs. the regular 12mm. Other size variations such as the 14 and 16mm standard nipples do reduce the spoke size you need. This is the opposite of Sapim, where the nipple thread is identical across their different size nipples, only the outer is extended. You can use a DT standard nipple therefore to adjust/compensate for the size of the spoke but not a sapim.

If you can source one I would thoroughly recommend you get the DT swiss torx electric screwdriver bit. Set it to 3.5-4mm out of the bit and assuming you got the right size spokes you should be able to wind the nipples on to give you a modestly tensioned, round and true wheel. You will need to adjust for dish based on how your spokes were compared to optimum, and add final tension (I would recommend the DT swiss Torx tool for that) but the wheel is basically built for you. All you need to do from where the electric screwdrive leaves off is add turns on the nipples evenly going round and round the wheel doing say 1 full turn at a time, until tight, and then a slight true at the end. I can build a set of wheels from scratch in 45 minutes using those two tools and a wheel jig. No tension meters etc. needed.

If you can source one I would thoroughly recommend you get the DT swiss torx electric screwdriver bit

So would I.  It’s a bit of an investment in DT for a one off but on the other hand you can’t use a regular nipple driver on squorx and that makes the job a pain

https://www.spokesfromryan.com/product/dt-swiss-torx-driver-bit-for-squorx-nipples/

Bloody hell, thought they were a bit pricey at half that price!

Funnily enough I have just spent a therapeutic morning doing my first wheel build, changing the (481) rim on my DT Swiss back wheel for a new (511) rim. I made a squorx driver out of an old brake disk bolt with the corners ground off and 2 8mm nuts backed tightly against one another on the threads. Then I just use an 8mm socket in my drill driver on low torque to run the nipples up to a base tension at the end of the threads. As mentioned, they are not far off true and round at that point and now I just need to spent some time with my home made truing stand getting them just so. Building wheels appears to be 50% logic and 50% touchy-feely!

Thanks, particularly @benpinnick for some comprehensive advice. That does look like a useful tool, but I'd not get the use out of it for the number of wheels I build. This will be number 6 and 7 and I reckon I've had my truing stand about 5 years. 🤣

Loving @welshfarmers DIY solution though, I might have a do at that!

Hi All. Apologies if this is inappropriate, but I have another question about correct spoke lengths when using the DT Swiss Squorx nipples together with PHR washers. Does one need to use a different length spoke, compared to standard spokes and nipples with no washers?

Context to this is I have a set of Easton EA90 SLX wheels (yes those), and they're in need of a rebuild, having gone though ... oh, ... about a dozen replacement spokes in the short months I've owned them.

The spokes are breaking both (a) at the nipple and (b) mid-way, which suggests to me (a) a defect in that there is no flex / rotation at the nipple, causing fatigue of the spokes at that point, and (b) the spokes are inherently weak.

Those being said, it seems DT Swiss are the solution; beefier spokes (Competition, at 2.0/1.8/2.0 vs 2.0/1.7/2.0) and with the PHR washers that allow the spokes and nipples to rotation. So the question; do I order standard spoke lengths for these wheels, or go longer to account for the washers and any peculiarities in the Squorx nipple?

Much obliged for any help you can give.

The phr washers are designed to match the rim/nipple bed profile of the DT rims.
Do you know what the profile of the ea90 rims are like?
I've been building everything with washers from sapim/newmen depending on the rim bed profile. Stans flat rim beds with MG washers has been great.

Hi Bearback. Thanks for following up on this. Actually, you've raised a question I'd dismissed. Firstly, I don't know what profile these rims have, but I'd assumed a nipple with a dished profile (like the PHR washers) would work. No? Do you have a different suggestion? I'll see if theres anything online to clarify the profile question.

Hi. Regarding the shape of the rims (see previous two posts) - they're rounded. Refer https://www.google.com/search?q=easton+ea90+slx+rim+profile&client=firefox-b-m&sxsrf=AOaemvIRof-VJnoBBj8TUwfOmKniomkcFA:1632985635402&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRnOLFkabzAhUWzzgGHZnSCGQQ_AUIBygC&biw=360&bih=560#imgrc=SdDItuaTon_EiM

Sapim HM might be a good shout if you think it's a nipple issue

Don't think I've ever had one of my threads bumped with follow up questions before, they're usually too dull.

To answer your original question, and based on my recent experience the DT washers were about 1mm thick so I'd increase spoke length by that, or at least make sure you round up to the nearest mm and not down. You don't need to account for the longer nipple as the extra is at the head end so the effective length from rim bed to spoke end is the same as a normal 12mm.

Here's what I achieved with my build.

Thanks again Bearback. I might just hang in there a bit longer with the original idea, until something definitive comes up to swing in another direction. That said, I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks tthew. Nice rig! 'Bumped'? That a good or bad thing? I hope I didn't crash the party here 🙂

So you're saying to add 1mm to account for the washer. The spokes come in even-numbered sizes only, so it'd mean going up 2mm. Is there any risk of bottoming out the nipples by going 2mm longer? Would a safer bet be to stick eith tbe standard lengths, and lose 1mm of spoke by virtue of having the washers?

Late tip-
a torx rotor bolt with the edge filed down (to fit thru nipple hole) works great for installing nipples with a drill.

You can't really bottom out a spoke, if you keep winding the nipple on eventually it'll poke out of the top. The extra length at the head of the nipple means an extra 1mm (2mm - the thickness of the washer) is very unlikely to protrude, I reckon you'd be OK with one size up.

And you didn't crash the thread at all, I got all the answers I needed from it!

Ref building wheels with DT rims and Squorx - I've done 3 full sets of these in past year or so, because I liked how the first ones went so much I re-built the wheels on all my bikes.

You dont need a special tool - its an Quarter Drvie E5 Torx that you need for building them. Available for a fiver on ebay/amazon.

If you use the DT swiss spoke calculator it does all the work for you, dont start messing aobut addiny or subtracting length from spokes. Its been bang on for me across 3 sets of wheels, 3 rim types and 6 different hubs.

They are easy to build, the Squorx nipples go together really well, and I've had zero problems with my wheels since.

The rims have everything you need in the box, nipples and the wavy washers. You just buy the spokes it tells you to on the spoke calculator.

Reccomended!

Thanks gents (I assume. Ladies too, if tbere are any in this group. With these names, how's one to tell!)

Anyhow's; thanks very much for all the info. Heaps useful, and then some! Those tips re a squorx tool will save me a bit, for one. He!

A question for you Snotrag. (Choice name!) So you've built with non-DT rims? I assume that's what you were indicating.

Washers will work fine in all but the deepest section rims. They don't stay the shape DT make them even in DT rims, most will round out to be more regular cone shapes. the taco shape they make them is to help get through the spoke holes I believe, it isn't critical for operation that this then fits into the rim profile - the washer is way too soft to hold that shape. You will need to add at least 1mm to the spoke length to use them. DT account for this in the rim ERD on their rims which need PHR washers, but other manufacturers rims you will need to add that in.

@adriang sorry, no my mistake if I was not clear - I've built 3 sets of wheels, all using DT rims and their included Squorx nipples and washers, onto a selection of Hope and Shimano hubs.

I've been so pleased with the first set I did the next two over the course of last year.

Plugging in the hub dimensions to the DT calculator has given me bang on Spoke sizes in all cases.

The surface finish on the rims is good too, being bead blasted/textured, it seems to be really durable.

@ben, the latest phr washers come with 2 dots clocked at 12 and 6 on the washer.
AFAI can tell, this is to allow visual reference that the washer is seated in the correct orientation under tensioning.
In the wrong rim profile, if you end up having the washers settling 90deg to their profile, presumably that would cause potential tension irregularities during stressing?

Thanks @Bearback, @Snotrag. So it seems my original idea is wrong. PHR washers a no-go. Any suggestions then? Going back to basic principles; a set of Easton EA90 SLX's (incredible wheels but do a search on 'broken spokes and you'll lose half your lifetime), with spokes constantly snapping midway but also at the nipple. It's the breaking at the nipple that steered me towards the PHR washer thing.

I've replaced spokes, rebuilt and retensioned the wheels, to no avail.There is info out there that the Sapim spokes could be the culprit. So .. either (1) bin the wheels (but I love them sob), or (2) rebuild just with stronger spokes (Competition 2.0/1.8/2.0), or (3) spokes and compatible washer to allow flex. If so, is this where your 'Sapim HM' suggestion comes in, @Bearback?

.... although. Had a gander at DT Swiss page for the PHR washer and it shows a plain dish-shaped disk. No protrusions. So ... ? I've sent a message to their techies. Be interesting to see what they say.

Heres a pic for you.
L>R
- 2016 ex1501 spline1 phr from a well battered wheel from one of my guides seasons in whistler incl EWS races. Very little if any dimensional changes as it matches the rim bed profile in radius so is fully supported under the spoke/nipple force
- New PHR 2016 era
- New PHR latest stock afaik with the 2 clocked dots
- Old washer from a Sram carbon rim 2016 build. I believe these originally were flat when new. Now cupped from deformation within the rim bed under spoke tension
- Sapim HM for flat or curved rim beds
- Sapim/Newmen MG for flat rim beds

It would be tough to argue that anything else is better than the conical Sapim washers for reducing nipple friction.

They don’t stay the shape DT make them even in DT rims, most will round out to be more regular cone shapes. the taco shape they make them is to help get through the spoke holes I believe, it isn’t critical for operation that this then fits into the rim profile – the washer is way too soft to hold that shape.

That is not my experience of DT PHR washers in DT PHR rims, I have got used PHR washers that match the shape of new ones if I stack them.

They can jam sideways temporarily when you are tensioning them, I guess if you managed to keep them at 90* to their correct orientation and tightened them right up they might deform?

As it happens I had a wheel to strip anyway. From the 32 4 were rounded out I noticed, could have been more of course. The wheel died from impact these washers didn't effect it in any way.

[img] [/img]

Some rims to build 🙂

[img] [/img]

LOL - What a rabbit hole! I thought itd be a straightforward 'how long' question. Anything but 🙂

I really appreciate all your input folks. I'm inclined towards your Sapim washer solution @Bearback, given the question mark of PHR washers in these Easton rims. With luck, Sapim will have nipples you can drive from inside the rim, like the Squorx.

Sapim do double head but they're not squorx, so you would need a double square driver for the back side. You could use the Squorx nipple with the Sapim washer though, there's not a huge difference in shape bewteen a DT PHR nipple seat and that of a Sapim polyax.

Ben are you seeing squashed PRH washers on all rims or just the wider ones? (just wondering if the narrower rims match the PHR curve and the wider ones allow it to flatten)

Anyway its kind of irrelevant, DT PHR/Squorx build up lovely, just slightly more time consuming to fit washer to each nipple.

Interesting about the punch marked PHR washers, I didn't notice that on the ones supplied with my rims but I wasn't looking that closely. I also assumed that they would orient themselves correctly in the rim bed as the nipples were run down - I certainly wasn't peering down the holes to check!

Ah well, they are build now, tubeless tape installed and stayed true on a non-too sympathetic ride so I'm not dismantling them to investigate.

From Ben's image, the lower left phr looks to have deformed with an additional "curve" at 90deg to the dots. Hard to tell though from photos and I definately defer to Ben's experience and expertise.

Perhaps jammed in the wrong orientation then shape changed under tension during build?
I don't know if it's actually a concern but I would be interested to know if DT's factory techs have a visual orientation check as part of their build process?

Adrian, I've only used squorx with the sapim washers as I have them to hand. Grease the nipple shoulder/washer cup and build.
Of course phr in your rim might be a perfectly suitable combination, I just think those HM washers would be a better solution if you're yet to purchase something.

Going ... going ... Done! You make a convincing case @Bearback, @benpinnick. Sorted!

It'll be a Sapim family affair; HM washers, Polyax nipples and spokes (2mm longer than OEM). Liberally greased (copper grease) and massaged into a snug fit (aligning contours) before final tensioning.

Bike24 seems to have the best deals. I'll report back on the build. And hopefully it'll be many many MANY rides before any mention is made of another broken spoke.

Broken spoke? For the first time in my life of riding ... er, 45 years? ... I carry spare spokes and tools on every ride with these wheels. Seriously. But, they are fantastic. If the spoke thing can be cured, they're better than anything else I've ever ridden. Hey. Where's the thread on 'best road wheels'?

You've been fantastic guys. Thank you for all your responses.

Yeah well no. Just when you thinks everything is sorted ... there weren't Spim spokes in the lengths needed, so back to DT spokes and the squorx nipples.

So, Good Day again folks. Back to the original question.

From Cut-out images of the quorx nipples, it's apparant the threads start at the base, with an unthreaded section at the other end.

Being that the Squrox nipples are 15mm long and 3mm longer than standard 12mm nipples, it follows (seemingly) that the starting point for converting from standard 12mm nipples to Squorx is to add the extra 3mm. Add another 1mm for the Sapim HM washers, and you're up to 4mm longer than standard.

This thread on the same issue says the same (other than it not accounting for the effect of adding a washer.).

Is this logic correct?

So what kind of post would it be without a follow-up?
.
I've decided to avoid the problem altogether, and order the spokes 4mm longer than standard.
.
If it so happens spokes bottom out, drilling out the end of nipples to remove the initial threading will solve the problem. That'll allow a spoke to penertrate futher into the nipple, and have the advantage that the spoke engages all the way through to the base of the nipple.
.
Assuming that's even needed.
.
Sorted.

D-lights are great in that the thread runs off so you could thread them all the way to the squorx end of the nipple with no bottom out.

Useful if slightly confusing thread for me as I'm just about to build my first set of wheels using dt swiss hubs and rims. Contrary to what you're suggesting @benpinnick I found that using the dt swiss spoke caluculator it did change the suggested spoke length very slightly if I changed the nipple used from the pro lock 12mm to the squorx 15mm.. The precise measurement remained the same but the suggested rounding up or down changed. I went with the suggested lengths using the squorx nipples (as that's what I'm using) even though the rounding wasn't as mathmatically accurate as for the pro lock calculation. Has anyone else found this inconsistency using the calculator?

It's not inconsistent - as I mentioned the squorx nipple will take a longer spoke usefully as there's more thread. DT is (I guess) accounting for this by always rounding up on Squorx vs other nipples. It will actually take a longer spoke than DT suggests so you could possibly add 1mm more again, but as you've found its only rounding a proportion of the spokes up. 60% of the time (I think its only 0.1 > 0.4 it rounds up on) the suggested length will be the same from a 12mm to 15 squorx or double head.

Yes I looked at it again last night and figured they were rounding up on any decimal point for the squorx vs rounding up/down at the .4/.5 threshold on the 12mm pro locks. Like you say probably because there is extra room in the nipple. I don't know what the tolerances are like as I haven't built a wheel yet but I assume this would give a slightly different base tension using the technique you described with the dt swiss driver with the depth pin
thingymajig?

My advise on the driver is to not aim for much tension if any. The driver is useful to get the wheel laced such that each spoke is wound on consistently. If you go for too much tension you will find that the driver loses grip on the nipples slightly inconsistently.

First build I would do this:

Wind on a nipple onto a spoke such that the thread on the spoke is covered, but only just.

Then set the driver so that this is the disengagement point.

Build your first wheel like this. it will be slack but even. Go round and round adding 2 half turns per nipple until tight enough to have a wheel that is true. Then correct for dish by hitting up the one side 1 half turn at a time until its NEARLY in dish. I say nearly as adding tension evenly moves the dish as you get more lateral effect on the long side.

Add more tension until tension is good, see where the dish is now and fix that.

True the final little bits out using 1/4 turns.

For the next wheel you can consider changing up the release point on the tool. Remembering how many 1/2 turns you did, I think IIRC 1mm on the tool = 4 1/2 turns. so you can save yourself excess nipple turns by reducing the pin depth, but I would always recommend you leave yourself 4 1/2 turns min to tension, less than this and you risk poor tool disengagement.

If you want to be pro you can get 2 tools and set the second to a different depth to suit your spoke variations, bearing in mind they wont dish up right even if you did exactly the same turns both sides as the length is a rounded approximation. (I have 4 tools for different sides & 27 vs. 29). Youd only do that if like me you were building lots of the same wheels all the time though.

Thanks for the advice Ben. Couldn't stomach £30 for the depth gauge tool so I just bought the standard squorx driver. Was going to thread each spoke up to where the thread dissappears as my base setting so that will give the same result as you're suggesting if a bit more time consuming. Am generally going to follow Roger Musson's book except he advises to measure the true erd using 2 cut down spokes but I've just used the dt swiss calc dimensions for that rim as I didn't have any spokes to measure with.
Out of interest, once you have your base tension setting do you use a normal spoke key or the dt squorx driver to bring up to tension? Any preference? Cheers

Always use the DT Squorx driver, much easier than a spoke key and a fair bit quicker.

If you are using the ali squorx nipples, you want a good fitting spoke key, I have the DT one as it grips on 4 sides.

As above I only use the DT driver for everything. Once you're good with it spoke keys feel like weird and backwards tools from the 19th century (or something like that anyway).

Great tips on building the wheels @BenPinnick. Reference when the kit arrives and it's time to build the wheels. And your tip @BearBack about the Sapim spokes' threading was useful but the goose is - if not actually cooked - at least in the oven!. (DT Swiss spokes are ordered and on their way.)

As it turns out, no-one had the 'right' lengths (stock + 4mm), so they'll be +2mm (F), +2mm (RnDS), +4mm (RDS). Lets see. Right now it's a beautiful Spring morning in Sydney, and time for a (COVID restricted) ride. Spare tube check, tyre levers check, pump check. Not to forget ... spare spokes check, spoke tools check. Have a great day folks, wherever yoou are.

Great I'll stick with dt swiss driver for the whole process then 👍
Spokes arrived today, looking forward to learning something:)