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The bike industry, "You need super fast pick up on your cassette drivers." Also the bike industry, "Your cassette driver is too direct and we need to soften it a bit." Furthermore the bike industry, "You know we exist only to sell you more stuff, right?"
Different strokes for different folks. Or more specifically… what’s best for rolling twisty undulating trails isn’t the best for winch and plummet riding.
I’ll just keep my (still going strong) Hope Pro2 hubs with slightly slower engagement for now.
The bike industry, "You need super fast pick up on your cassette drivers." Also the bike industry, "Your cassette driver is too direct and we need to soften it a bit." Furthermore the bike industry, "You know we exist only to sell you more stuff, right?"
I know it's tempting to be sceptical about bike industry "innovations", but these products actually offer a genuine and significant improvement to how bikes ride. They are not comparable to a low-engagement hub at all (in my experience of the Ochain). Much more like riding without a chain.
Compared to leccy gears (the most pointless MTB product I can think of), these "anti-kickback" gizmos give tremendous bang-for-your-buck.
I’m inclined to agree with chakaping and this DT Swiss hub seems like a very simple solution.
A friend of mine recently got. Tairin silent hub, then promptly broke his collarbone. He probably won’t get much time on it to give an opinion before winter.
Tairin are a small Canadian company who, as far as I can tell, were the first to bring this kind of hub to market.
one thing that would concern me about these kind of hubs is how many degrees you’d need to turn the crank to reengage the freehub.
these products actually offer a genuine and significant improvement to how bikes ride.
Do they though?
Will I really have more fun?
Do they though?
Will I really have more fun?
Possibly. It depends on what you enjoy about mountain biking.
as an experiment you could remove your chan at the top of a descent (preferably one that doesn’t require much pedalling) and feel the difference it make to the suspension when it is isolated from the chain.
A question I have is what setting changes you’d need to make to the shock to cater for the unencumbered movement? Presumably you’d need to increase the compression damping
Another question is how these changes would impact the performance of the suspension while climbing?
perhaps we’ll see shocks with “descend” switches rather than “climb” switches so that you can firm thing up for when the drivetrain is disengaged!
Do they though?
Will I really have more fun?
It's comparable to the difference between a crap rear shock and a good one IMO.
More about "performance" than "fun", but then most MTB gear is.
Another question is how these changes would impact the performance of the suspension while climbing?
Non-issue on steady climbs, not sure about normal techy climbs yet, but a bit annoying on very janky rocky climbs (I did Ullswater singletrack a few weeks ago).
Possibly. It depends on what you enjoy about mountain biking.
as an experiment you could remove your chan at the top of a descent (preferably one that doesn’t require much pedalling) and feel the difference it make to the suspension when it is isolated from the chain.
I'm not saying they're not faster against a clock, or different. I'm just questioning whether they're actually more fun, because ultimate that's why we go ride?
Modern bikes in general are more fun than 90's bikes because they allow you to go significantly faster.
But in isolation I'm not convinced that a lot of what the industry is selling is actually doing that. Electric gears, overly complicated suspension, carbon EVERYTHING.
The exception that proves the rule might be something like Winter boots, or decent winter gloves, or a skills course. Those things actually make riding more fun.
And on a different note, isn't all this just doing exactly what sprag clutches and free coaster hubs have always done, swapping degrees between ratchet points for degrees float before they engage, only with even more complexity and moving parts?
I consider myself a fairly decent biker, and reasonably experienced rider. But I have absolutely no idea what “pedal kick back” is. Consequently, I really have incredibly little interest in innovations to fix something that I don’t think is an issue for me at all.
Good points, though I don’t know if a free coaster hub is simpler than this DT Swiss solution. The float in these systems is constant, unlike degrees between engagement in a low engagement hub.
personally, I would like to try one. If they made my feet less achy at the end of a fast and chunky descent I’d consider it more fun and I think it’s fun when my bike feels like it’s working well.
Jeff Kendal Weed isn’t convinced by these products, and he’s far from an average rider
And Joe Starling isn’t convinced kick back is a problem anyway
if I had the compatible hubs, I’d probably give this a go, but I need new tyres and they’re expensive enough.
Hmmmm. I just watched that video (Jeff Kendal Weed) and pretty much agree with him - last (only) time I've found kickback to be intrusive was when I took my Bullit to the Alps 15-20 years ago.
It's good that companies try stuff though, and some folk may love this "fix". Shows off the modularitynessisitude of DTs hubs too, I guess
I can't be bothered to type all my thoughts on pedal kickback again. Basically, it may or may not be a thing and it definitely affects some bikes more than others. If you're not bothered by it, don't worry about it.
'Chain-flail' though, or whatever you want to call it, is definitely a thing. It's why old bikes had DCD's and Bullet Bros. tensioners. It's why modern bikes have clutch derailleurs and moulded plastic frame protection.
Chains are heavy, noisy and they whip up and down all over the place when you're riding off road. That whipping tugs on the chainring and therefore your feet.
That's why I fitted a Rimpact Chain Damper to my Airdrop Edit MX. They were more honest about aiming to mitigate chain-flappyness than trying to make unprovable claims about pedal kick-back.
My honest review is that it works exactly as advertised. Effects will vary from bike to bike but it's eliminated chain noise for me and removed a load of vibration and feedback from my pedals which I didn't even realise was there. For the steep, chunky trails I like to ride it's perfect.
As luck would have it, my other bike has DT Swiss hubs compatible with this new gadget so I might be able to test both side by side.
Hmmmm. I just watched that video (Jeff Kendal Weed) and pretty much agree with him - last (only) time I've found kickback to be intrusive was when I took my Bullit to the Alps 15-20 years ago.
It's good that companies try stuff though, and some folk may love this "fix". Shows off the modularitynessisitude of DTs hubs too, I guess
Really neat that it's almost a free ochain when you buy a ratchet upgrade for your hub, it can be a normal hub or the DF, no real downside.
The bike industry, "You need super fast pick up on your cassette drivers." Also the bike industry, "Your cassette driver is too direct and we need to soften it a bit." Furthermore the bike industry, "You know we exist only to sell you more stuff, right?"
To be fair, DT were the company who always said "you can have too much engagement"
Certainly a subject that's getting a LOT of thought from me at the moment for 2026 as we're going to a non-high-pivot frame (Atherton A200), I've always felt the high-pivot Session was negating the need, but now it may need considering.
Sadly due to incompatibility with our Saint cranks that may mean we don't run a Rimpact/O-chain but instead we may run a rear hub like this above or the E13 Sidekick. Still debating it
If I had a DT hub it would fit I’d probably try this (only hesitation being my fear of unscrewing the existing ratchet ring)
Since I don’t, I’ve ordered a Rimpact to try. Didn’t exactly shine in the Pinkbike review but it is British so must be best, right? No I don’t need it but I’m interested in what it does and hope it will be a revelation when rattling over roots or stutter/braking bumps. Slow pick up has never bothered me, perfectly happy on an 18t ratchet so what’s to lose apart from money (and I picked up a 10% discount from a Remy Metailler video to slightly lessen that blow)
Emperor's new clothes/Princesses and peas stuff to me if I'm honest.
I agree about the whole "selling solutions to solutions" thing, hub pickup/angle of engagement has been an ever increasing marketing point for the last 20 odd years, now all of a sudden we've got too much? But it's also only a problem if you notice, and you probably only notice is your attention was drawn to it (by said marketing)...
Meh, I'm honestly not bothered, having effectively opted out of full suspension recently I guess kickback isn't a thing for HT riders anyway(?).
One thing I did note, all of the videos illustrating it have static bikes, chain on the 52T sprocket, being heaved up and down on by someone, essentially exaggerating the "kickback" effect, is that a realistic representation of most people's riding? surely the effect is substantially reduced in smaller sprockets? Are people going deep into the travel in bottom gear very often? If so, That's some Gnarly climbing.
One thing I did note, all of the videos illustrating it have static bikes, chain on the 52T sprocket, being heaved up and down on by someone, essentially exaggerating the "kickback" effect, is that a realistic representation of most people's riding?
No, it illustrates what kickback is but has nothing to do with actual riding. I’m pinning my hopes on Rimpact guy being correct about chain flail being what I actually feel. Two things I am fascinated by in huck to flat videos, how much forks flex and how much a chain flaps around and even slaps the ground. Actually make that three things because I sort of like it when something breaks too 😀
I keep looking at the Rimpact chain damper... if it wasn't for the price I'd give it a go... but it's very much a "nice to have" rather than being obviously worth the money. This hub, much the same. If buying new wheels I'd be swayed towards this hub, but buying either a new hub or the expensive upgrade kit for an existing hub if I had the right one already... not going to happen. If I was to drop the cash... I'd look at the chainring end before the freehub end... as it's the pedals where the isolation is useful so looking at that end of the chain makes most sense. I've ridden on Ochain, and it does feel "extra calm". I'm hoping one of you more willing to spend big will try BOTH end of the chain at once for us all though... lets us know how you get on.
I have one on the DH bike, its a weird feeling to start peddling with but for the DH a quick sprint and you get used to it, and it makes it so quiet.
I haven't tried it on my bronson yet
I’ve never felt the need for this and by researching I think it’s a perception rather than a reality. However it’s a lovely, well engineered, DT Swiss solution.
No amount of chain flap would ever offset a relatively quick, or instant, pickup for me. I am lucky owning a Starling which has a relatively high chainstay so the amount of flap space is very limited (in the top gears the chain is pretty much rubbing on the VHS Slapper Tape) so I don't get any chain appreciable chain feedback through the pedals. I've also concluded that "pedal kickback" is a fantasy condition dreamt up by companies trying to sell stuff.
I'd like to try the Williams freehub and free spider combination, if only because I like the idea of a completely disconnected, silent drivetrain and a DT240 hub is a lot lighter than my current Onyx.
Emperor's new clothes/Princesses and peas stuff to me if I'm honest.
As I tried to suggest before, these widgets stand in contrast to (IMO) pointless MTB innovations like electric gears or adding yet another sprocket.
Just talking about the Ochain, it was invented and developed by a smart Italian rider and engineer, and has spread by word of mouth on the DH race scene because it has a very noticeable and easy-to-appreciate effect on the bike.
It's not gonna be for everyone and I probably won't use it on my Orange full-sus, but I think it's one of the smartest and most-effective MTB innovations of recent years - and it's nice to see the guy get a big payday from it.
People comparing these things to a low engagement hub ought to try riding them. That line is a total red herring IMO.
The Rimpact and Ochain have such instant, tangible, positive effects on a bike especially while descending. It's impossible to not notice the improvement.
I'm happy to just ignore anyone who's never tried one or thinks they're a gimmick.
If anyone sees me out and about on mine, you're welcome to a full inspection and test ride.
Just watched that Starling video. Joe has a really good take on it.
Interesting as his bikes (via that review in Dirt) were a key driver in the current trend for more compliance in frames, and he's thinking about this issue through the same lens really (reducing sensory "noise" to the rider).
Good points, though I don’t know if a free coaster hub is simpler than this DT Swiss solution. The float in these systems is constant, unlike degrees between engagement in a low engagement hub.
Maybe not, the DT system seems to be like the internals of an impact driver, the internal ratchet just floats back 0/10/20deg then needs to be pulled forward to engage.
Whereas free coasters rely on a helical driver pulling the 'clutch' together. The advantage of that design is it disengages completely the other way. There would be zero pedal kickback because without a ratchet you can spin the wheel backwards indefinitely without the pedals moving, it needs pedaling chain tension to engage it.
Actually, wouldn't Shimano's Sylence hub design achieve the same thing as the DT? The idea was that you had to pedal forward a fixed amount to bring the ratchets together?
That is really clever. I suppose the potential downside is that there's no real clutching or damping or anything, it's basically just "loose" which could be weird.
I have no money so I've reverted to an 18t ratchet in an old 240 (and I mean old! Hugi branded, boost converted, probably approaching its 3rd decade!) and tbh I don't miss the engagement and it does at least feel a little nicer sometimes, though I have no idea if it's actually better, tbf I don't care if it's all in my head, because that is where I do all my thinking. Equally when I put the faster engagement ring in, I liked that too 😛
New Cranks are cheaper than new wheels . . . .
True but if you get the hubs and don't like it, you can turn it off and still have one of the best hubs ever made. And if you do like it, it's a no-extra-stuff solution, basically no weight penalty or extra things to faff with.
Funnily enough, I was out in the garage tinkering with my hack MTB to get it sorted for winter, it’s got an old DMR revolver rear hub which isn’t the snappiest engaging thing. I had a bit of a play and I looks like the approximate engagement angle on that hub is actually close to 20deg, so I suppose that’s an indicator of what the DT must be like to ride with from an engagement perspective, a bit like a shitty ~20 year old hub, but not unrideable…
True but if you get the hubs and don't like it, you can turn it off and still have one of the best hubs ever made. And if you do like it, it's a no-extra-stuff solution, basically no weight penalty or extra things to faff with.
Better than that, you can keep the 0 degrees for pedally days, or pull off the end cap/cassette, move the ratchet, and you have your downhill setup. It's a very neat design.
the approximate engagement angle on that hub is actually close to 20deg
Or more to the point it is some random angle between 0 and 20 degrees with zero consistency.
Long time Ochain user:
- Bike is much quieter (its pretty quiet to start with, lots of velcro and other bits)
- There is no drivetrain noise of the freehub engaging during suspension compression (more under braking this is noticeable)
- My feet are less fatigued on an uplift day, there is definitely a lot less feedback through the pedals.
No one talks about the racket the DT system is likely to make, given there is no damping at all, hard metal on metal contact. Weighing up an Ochain for the eeb, then this came along, but concerns how its going to hammer itself to pieces.
the approximate engagement angle on that hub is actually close to 20deg
Or more to the point it is some random angle between 0 and 20 degrees with zero consistency.
I wondered about this since hub engagement is variable and may reduce kickback in some edge cases of engagement, and do nothing in others. 24 teeth is 0-15 degrees and 36 teeth 0-10 (obvs).
However, with the DT system the way I see it is the ring floats. As long as there's more drag between the ring and the ratchet than the ring and the hub shell then it'll self reset with wheel rotation as soon as the bike freewheels more than the pickup (20+15 worst case = 1/10th of a rotation).
This should give a consistent 10 / 20 degrees of ring engagement, plus ratchet pick up (0-10/15), every time the rider pedals faster than the wheel rotation.
This should give a consistent 10 / 20 degrees of ring engagement, plus ratchet pick up (0-10/15), every time the rider pedals faster than the wheel rotation.
This is with the new DT hubs which have 90t ratchets by default IIRC as the ratchet ring is inside the hub shell / spoke flange rather than inside the freehub.
The other advantage of these hubs is you no longer need a special tool and superhuman torque to remove the ratchet in order to replace the bearing as the bearings is smaller than the ratchet ring.
Even better then! Looking at ring float (fixed 10 or 20) plus 0-4 degrees ratchet engagement. The known fixed part should make things feel more consistent than the variation with a lower engagement hub.
Or more to the point it is some random angle between 0 and 20 degrees with zero consistency.
I wasn't really arguing for or against anything TBH, simply noting that a ~20deg engagement angle can be lived with.
With the DT system you are essentially option for a "minimum" engagement angle of 0/10/20 deg (+ whatever ratchet you use) apparently the 90t ratchet manages 4deg so what you actually you get 4/10-14/20-24deg in practice. (Right?)
Really it comes down to whether or not pedal kickback is a "thing" for you and would/could you tolerate 14 or 24 degree engagement angles to address it? (or more with a lower engagement ratchet).
Having ridden a hub with that level of engagement (albeit a bit more random) yesterday, I still think there's something positive to be said for rapid pickup and after ~20 odd years of being sold faster engagement as a desirable trait, I'm not sure I'd want to deliberately choose the opposite. I think DT were wise to include the "0deg" position in the design, essentially they can cover all the bases in one product.
Rimpact and O-Chain might be in trouble I reckon...
Two things I am fascinated by in huck to flat videos, how much forks flex and how much a chain flaps around and even slaps the ground. Actually make that three things because I sort of like it when something breaks too
I find myself watching fork flex but also the ways in which suspension loads up front and rear you often seem to see a staged forwards/backwards little 'shunt' thing heppening as the fork and shock overcome their own friction in steps, that's also often reflected in the way the tyres deflect, it's seldom a linear "squish and rebound" type action.
I think DT were wise to include the "0deg" position in the design, essentially they can cover all the bases in one product.
If nothing else, hardtails still exist, as do road bikes.
Do you have to remove the cassette to toggle modes on the DT hub?
One of the nice things about the Ochain R is you can adjust tool-free in about 10 secs, you do have to take yr glove off though
(no, I'm not on commission, sadly)
Do you have to remove the cassette to toggle modes on the DT hub?
One of the nice things about the Ochain R is you can adjust tool-free in about 10 secs, you do have to take yr glove off though
I guess that’s a question for th Ochain users. How often do they turn it on/off?
I guess that’s a question for th Ochain users. How often do they turn it on/off?
In a two hour ride, I might typically change it twice.
Do you have to remove the cassette to toggle modes on the DT hub?
One of the nice things about the Ochain R is you can adjust tool-free in about 10 secs, you do have to take yr glove off though
I guess that’s a question for th Ochain users. How often do they turn it on/off?
Mine is the old style with no adjustment, I'm clipped in, so pedalling with constant tension to avoid the on/off feel is easier than with flats.
I’m sure a switch could be built into a hub shell if users wanted it to be, adds to the complexity of your hub somewhat, but entirely doable.
I suppose when SRAM inevitably buy O-chain out there will end up being an AXS version, slaved to your leccy dropper and built into your Quarq power meter ring…
I suppose when SRAM inevitably buy O-chain out there will end up being an AXS version, slaved to your leccy dropper and built into your Quarq power meter ring
The beauty of what DT have done is it's simplicity but I'm not going to bet against you being right on this. Though really I don't think any of these devices will gain mass appeal, it's all a bit niche really
Though really I don't think any of these devices will gain mass appeal, it's all a bit niche really
It's the incremental nature of these things, Full stockbroker spec machines in whatever sub-niche of cycling need to have ever increasing "features".
Someone will want a button that takes their bike from efficient climber to slammed seat, kickback eliminating config, it'll probably tweak your fork/shock damping and pressures and change your tyre pressures too if you want... All of these things all exist as products already, integration by someone (probably SRAM), for a not-inconsequential sum, will happen eventually.
The Nicheness matters less than it being "cool", expensive Halo products do help sell the lower tier versions with half the gimmicks awesome features...
This is something that's VERY much being discussed in my head at the moment.
I'm struggling to find a DT Swiss hub that's not an 'upgrade' version but a whole hub, we don't have and DT Swiss hubs to upgrade. The E-Thirteen Sidekick seems to be about £400 for a hub... but really i'd need at least 2..
Starting to see hubs bundled with the upgrade (and the tool), not seeing DF hubs though
Though really I don't think any of these devices will gain mass appeal, it's all a bit niche really
It's the incremental nature of these things, Full stockbroker spec machines in whatever sub-niche of cycling need to have ever increasing "features".
Someone will want a button that takes their bike from efficient climber to slammed seat, kickback eliminating config, it'll probably tweak your fork/shock damping and pressures and change your tyre pressures too if you want... All of these things all exist as products already, integration by someone (probably SRAM), for a not-inconsequential sum, will happen eventually.
The Nicheness matters less than it being "cool", expensive Halo products do help sell the lower tier versions with half the gimmicks awesome features...
Are we still talking about feedback mitigation? Because this sounds like general 'old man yells at sky' stuff.
Though really I don't think any of these devices will gain mass appeal, it's all a bit niche really
Saw a fair few on bikes this summer in Italy.... Certainly enough of them that I had to ask what is was for.
The O-Chain has been sold to Sram so it's off my list of preferential things to have. Not keen on the idea of elastomers inside the O-Chain, either. How long they going to last?
Not keen on the idea of elastomers inside the O-Chain, either. How long they going to last?
I've received my Rimpact and it comes with a spare set of elastomers (it uses steel springs and elastomers) so you're probably right if you think the elastomers are a bit of a consumable. Their inclusion suggests to me they aren't expected to last as long as a chain ring. I'm fine with this given the intended use, just a little extra maintenance.
The O-Chain has been sold to Sram so it's off my list of preferential things to have.
Has it? I was just speculating I've not started an untrue rumour have I?
Edit: Wow what a guess!
As I don't know what it feels like could someone tell me if my bike is likely to generate much pedal kick back? It's a Revel Rascal.
My hub is a 350 with the 36t/10deg thing, if that also makes a difference...
As I don't know what it feels like could someone tell me if my bike is likely to generate much pedal kick back? It's a Revel Rascal.
My hub is a 350 with the 36t/10deg thing, if that also makes a difference...
Go to a rocky descent and ride it a few times then take your chain off and do it again. See if you can feel what's missing.
There’s a very good interview with the engineer who designed O-chain available on the downtime mtb podcast
He argues it’s much better to have this type of system on the crank as it isolates the rest of the drivetrain. He also points out that a hub -based system will feel different for every sprocket. And it’ll feel ‘slackest’ in the big climbing sprocket, and be least effective in the smaller descending sprockets, which is kind of the opposite to what you want
He also mentions a 75hr service life for the elastomers
@Rubber_Buccaneer are those elastomers spares or different durometer(?) options?
are those elastomers spares or different durometer(?) options?
Spares. Most of the work is done by the steel springs of which there is a lighter 'trail' option available but not supplied with the device. If you have one to test and are finding it unpleasant to pedal you may like to investigate this option with Rimpact
Just ordered one of these, well a new whole wheel and upgraded hub. It's a bit messy as you can't buy the hub in a 157 and HG, so you need an XD then a freehub in HG and then swap the bits over and upgrade to the DF system