[Closed] Dropper on XC bike - side-effects

#joecockerisalive

 Haven’t ridden it yet so I’m waiting to find out what it’s like on single track with my whole CoG lower.

You CoG will be lower.

I would if I could.

Too used to it on the big bike, now the xc whippet feels so clumsy.

I get to something steep I can drop the saddle

And how’s your knees, hips, lower back and power output going to be after riding a dropped saddle when climbing?

I guess he paid extra for one that goes ‘up’ as well as down????

😉

DrP

I’d previously put the bars a bit higher than I really liked for climbing because it made it too front-heavy when descending.  But of course now I can slam the bars because whenever I get to something steep I can drop the saddle.

Read in context it sounds like he's putting the saddle down when climbing.   I may of course be wrong.

Read in context it sounds like he’s putting the saddle down when climbing.   I may of course be wrong.

Steep down, I meant.

I posted the thread for the benefit of those who might be thinking they wouldn't benefit from a dropper, because they think they are for gnarly tech riding.  But there are other benefits than simply getting your bum on the back tyre.

Read in context it sounds like he’s putting the saddle down when climbing.   I may of course be wrong.

read in context it sounds like he has his bars set higher than desirable for descending. there is no reference to saddle height for climbing.

The other side effect you may discover is cornering speed will go up.

Fast tight corners with the saddle down will let you really lean the bike over much more than when the saddle is up.  For racing mates on the twistys it works well.  You can get away with daft lean angles, or low side off the trail trying 🙂

Quicker starts with the saddle down too as you can position over the seat ready to sprint. Just click it up once you're moving

I think its a good upgrade for an xc bike where things get technical, if you are running short travel and a steep head angle you are going to be up against it anyway, so anything that helps give a bit more control and stability is a good thing

I posted the thread for the benefit of those who might be thinking they wouldn’t benefit from a dropper, because they think they are for gnarly tech riding.  But there are other benefits than simply getting your bum on the back tyre.

Don't just use them for the few steep sections per lap, any time you are stood up and aren't pedaling, the seat should be down.

Its not the 90s anymore, Watch some WC races, aside from a couple of super tech bits, they aren't bum on tyre, with dropper or without. Central weight and relaxed arms and they are flying down things us amateurs wouldn't do on an Enduro bike.

Wasn't it CP back in the Mojo days who tested droppers on XC race bikes?

I believe it went something like this...

CP - see, it's faster with a dropper.

XC racer - yeah, but it's heavier.

CP - yes, but it's faster.

XC racer - but heavier.

CP - They don't give out prizes for the lightest bike.

XC racer - true...but it's heavier.

CP - %@#£

And how’s your knees, hips, lower back and power output going to be after riding a dropped saddle when climbing?

Stronger than a bloke who sits in his house on a bike 3 times a week "training"

Droppers actually made me weaker. I used to do 2hr+ XC rides on dirt jump bikes with the saddle slammed the entire ride.

Hope it's the XC version of the command post - the XCP...

Geex you are by a large margin the most awesome person on this forum .

It is a great observation OP as I found exactly the same thing, especially on a HT where the bar height is somewhat dictated by going as low as possible but not so low you risk going arse over tit on steep stuff when the forks go in to their travel. It only took a ride or two before I also lowered my bars and found it much better. Droppers make better climbing XC bikes! 🙂

I feel that the 65mm Lev Ci I have is more than ample on an XC geo frame and bizarrely feels too much for most situations. You don't need to drop the saddle much to get a bit of help and the traditional XC geo kind of dictates where your body position will be relative to the wheels so you don't get the same kind of benefit as a more Endurbro bike with longer drops.

My overall feeling was that a dropper didn't make me any faster but it did open up certain lines I wouldn't have ridden before as that "ah sh1t I've cocked that up" moment is a little further away. Same with taking on certain lines when it is really greasy.

Stronger than a bloke who sits in his house on a bike 3 times a week “training”

Droppers actually made me weaker. I used to do 2hr+ XC rides on dirt jump bikes with the saddle slammed the entire ride.

Actually ordinary posts can be adjusted during a ride, you didn't need to buy a dropper for that.

IIRC Bart & Rob commented on this, saying the main benefit for XCO pros was better recovery / lower heart rate on the descents before the next climb.

It's the 100mm Command Post IR with 100mm drop.  Being mechanical rather than hydraulic to save weight on oil (it's 480g) it has indexed positions.  First click is about 25mm, then there are a load of micro clicks over the next 30-40mm then one more all the way down.

In practice it'll be dropped a bit, or dropped all the way.

XCP has one drop position - 35mm - sweet - just right for XC and super fast toggling between positions with the SRL lever which is just like a right gear shifter.

#joecockerisalive

indeed, welcome to 2010

I have the SRL lever, which is indeed really nice.  However I quite like the 100mm drop as I use the bike for general riding as well as XC racing (this is a lie, I haven't XC raced since 2010)

Well that was dramatic.  Because the bars were lower and now the saddle, I could get much lower on the bike which made it FAR more manoeuvrable on twisty singletrack and far more secure at speed.  Lots more fun.  Also easier to pop off stuff with more space underneath me.

However the lower bars put a bit more pressure on my hands.  May have to work on that.

Had a dropper (125mm reverb) on my xc/marathon machine for 3-4 years, brilliant for 12/24 hour events as you get a wider range of positions to keep comfortable.

Much faster and in control on descents on shorter courses too.

Also, I had set the forks quite firm to reduce dive and make it more secure on steep stuff - it's has a steep head angle. But now it's far less of an issue so I let quite a bit of air out of the forks and the ride is far smoother at speed.

I’m a recent dropper adderer. Avoided due to every Reverb ever failing after, oh, 10s 😉

Its not been the ‘game changer’ I was expecting tbh. Where I find most of use is being able to hike it up for climbing, that’s awesome (helps my knees!). I only drop it fully very occasionally, probably not riding rad or gnarlly enough (I take too long to heal when I break these days).

i reckon I could problem get away with a 35 or 50mm dropper (so only 100mm extra I’ve paid for then 🤣).

god, I don’t half miss it on the Sherpa though.

Its not been the ‘game changer’ I was expecting tbh.

Wait till you try to go back.

I only drop it fully very occasionally

Likewise, but the main benefit at least on XC is as you say, the partial drop.  Being able to get my body lower really helps thread the bike through singletrack.  But you have to be pressing on for this to be a benefit, i.e. trying to go as fast as you can.  If you're just chilling out it won't make much difference.

i reckon I could problem get away with a 35 or 50mm dropper

A legitimate use case - I think Specialized make a 35mm one don't they for XCers?

Another advantage on yesterday's ride:  I can get far more clearance when getting emergency air to clear an obstacle; and when getting recreational air I can control the bike much better so now I go looking for it far more.

I was adverse to dropper initially because of the extra weight* but it's well worth it.

* Previous carbon post 260g; previous alloy post: 270g; lightest carbon post available 205g; Specialized command post IR 100mm 480g not inc remote.

A legitimate use case – I think Specialized make a 35mm one don’t they for XCers?

your memory seems worse than mine, you appeared to anyswer a post of mine in which I mentioned it, and the SRL lever that you then said you had!

The advantage of the 35mm is that it is the full drop postion, so faster to confirm it's position, so you can toggle up and down fast witht he SRL lever, so even at Swinley it gets used a lot as up for the small climds and then down to cruiser, then back up for the next short climb, etc.

Been having some issues with my right knee so getting so easily to optimal climbing position is nice, then back down to cruiser for some manouverability.

i reckon I could problem get away with a 35 or 50mm dropper

I started out with a 75mm GravityDropper back when they first came out. It was  a game changer so I got a 100mm one for my other bike. Could never understand why people felt the need for more than 100mm drop, but then I got a 125mm Reverb. At first I thought about limiting it to 100mm drop because 125mm just seemed too much but then I got used to only dropping it as much as I needed instead of slamming it all the way down. I put the 75mm GravityDropper on a spare bike. Took it for a ride a few weeks back, immediately smashed my nuts on the back of the saddle on the first steep descent. Once you get used to having the saddle right down low, it's very hard to go back. Now I'm eyeing up 150mm posts.

As I think I've said before (see, I do remember some stuff 😉 ) in flat places like Ashton Court the default position is about 50mm down, and it only goes up for climbs.

I do wonder if dropper ubiquity contributes towards the continued progression of 29ers and the demolition of the '29ers handle slowly' concept.

My Trek (the bike in question) steered quickly and well enough, but in twisty stuff it wasn't as agile as I'd have liked.  But that may have just been down to higher CoG compounded by larger wheels - which would slow handling down, as you'd expect.  But being able to lower the CoG by a good 50-75mm seems to offset that.  The steering was still quick but rapid turns and manoevring of the bike were far easier.

I now wish I'd been dilligent in selecting the correct bike when I upload to Strava, because I'd have been able to measure performance.  Although I suspect I may have a PR on the fence line (flat-ish singletrack with many trees at Castell Coch) across all my bikes.

Well I’m off for my first dropper-ride today.   A quick sit on the bike and suddenly I get the 2-3 cm lower on singletrack thing.  As a racer I have my saddle as high as my road bikes for power/leg extension, so in the twisty stuff I’ve a feeling this’ll help COG and balance.

On the negative side the dropper is about to get covered in all kinds of mud, hmmm....

I’ll drop a note in later after the ride.

Will look forward to the report. But also remember like all big changes it takes time to learn to get the best from it.

I fitted a TMars one to a 96 Trek 850 recently and I have to say I'm sold. It just works so well, even for old XC geometry bikes.

[img] [/img]

I had to do a ton of work to it to get it function though; machine it down from 27.2 to 26.7mm. It's a snug fit now, but about 95% of the post is inside the frame, so I cant see it being too much of an issue. I also had to turn the post round, re-drill the pin positions, make internal spacers and stops and also pressed in a plastic rod inside the sliding post. This has the effect of creating vacuum inside the post, using the bottom cap as a throttle, slowing down the somewhat aggressive return speed.

It now has 50mm of drop, but on an old, high standover frame, that's about as much as you're practically going to get. Enough to make a difference though.

I had to do a ton of work to it to get it function though; machine it down from 27.2 to 26.7mm.

I have a feeling that GravityDropper used to do a 26.8mm post, but not sure. From your picture, it looks like you might squeeze a 3" drop GravityDropper in there with a lower stack saddle. I think the TMars is basically a cheaper knockoff of the GravityDropper, so functionality would probably be pretty much the same. I think the worst thing about the GravityDropper is the flimsy lever, not sure if TMars improved on that at all.

That's a decent ride for a rainy day Kryton, or are you being lazy with your reporting?

Ha Ha - here I am.  a 2hr ride, lots of cleaning to do!

it takes time to learn to get the best from it.

This.  It took a fair while to get my brain into gear with it.  At first, I went straight t the nearest big drop off - a 13ft rooty drop into a bomb hole.  I spent some time going down it several times, dropper up then down and so on.   I came away for the rest of the ride thinking "hmmm, yes there was more confidence there" but also feeling a little alien not have the feel of the saddle around my upper thigh.

As time went on I remember mol grips words, and started to let the saddle down a few cm on downhill single track - and it was here the real revelation occurred.  As you said, suddenly I found myself more naturally in the attack position knowing I couldn't lazily sit down on a Saddle too low.  I was moving the bike around, much further back, my heels where down more naturally by default as I hovered and I was able to move the bike around much more with more body english - quite amazing the amount of difference and confidence it provided - all this in muddy slippy conditions which are not my favourite.  I came away thinking I've deferred to some bad "sitting" habits as I move from Trail to race and started to remind myself of my prior Jedi training, and few I hd more time/focus to look through the trail as my body was much more "loose"

I'm now thinking about which races I'd use it in - pretty much anything where theres some fast single track to find some time, definitely the Hope Marathon, Hadliegh...

So, a thumbs up!

I have a feeling that GravityDropper used to do a 26.8mm post, but not sure. From your picture, it looks like you might squeeze a 3″ drop GravityDropper in there with a lower stack saddle. I think the TMars is basically a cheaper knockoff of the GravityDropper, so functionality would probably be pretty much the same. I think the worst thing about the GravityDropper is the flimsy lever, not sure if TMars improved on that at all.

I've no idea if it's similar to the Gravity lever, but it's not too bad, considering the general quality. Now I'm pretty familiar with it's guts and operation, I'll hopefully figure out what works best and make some improvements as I go.

It's a lot of arsing about for basically an obsolete bike, that I use for work, but it was lying about, so thought it could be fun to play with. Plus the spares availability is good. I'm definitely thinking about getting a decent one for my good bike now, but this whole thread has got me looking at pure XC bikes in a way which I wouldn't have before.

I finished today on a favourite descent which is an old access track from the days of horses with several hairpins. They are steep ish, and having the saddle slammed allows you to really sit into the bike and use your weight to whip it around far more quickly than if you were sitting high up. With a flick of the hips you can also drift the back nicely which is also not really on with the seat up.

In terms of racing you could easily gain ten metres on an opponent who wasn't using a dropper because you have to brake far less into this kind of corner.

Any side effects on your vocab dude?

this whole thread has got me looking at pure XC bikes in a way which I wouldn’t have before.

What is a "pure" XC bike?

What is a “pure” XC bike?

Just semantics I suppose, but what I would consider a Cross Country racing bike. Something I would imagine to be more bum-up, head-down and lighter than my current Karate Monkey, with a narrower focus of intended use.

I had been looking at replacing it with something like a Genesis Longitude/Kona Unit X/Marin Pinewood but have stated looking into Merida Big 9/Orbea Alma type bikes. Does that make sense?

Fit a shorter stem with more rise, a dropper seatpost, and a fatter, grippier front tyre and your "pure" XC racebike is a trailbike. Amazing thing is that for most riders most of the time, it will probably be faster than the the bum-up, head-down race bike.

What is a “pure” XC bike

My experiment yesterday was on my upgraded Vitus Rapide...

I always figured that a "pure XC" bike would have a headtube angle of at least 70 degrees. That Vitus looks to be slack enough to be considered as XC-Trail, maybe even Pure Trail. Much slacker and it'll be trespassing on All Mountain.

Old definitions and boundaries are blurring so much these days, you could pick a wide variety of frames and with component choice, achieve a good "average" bike.

Another benefit of a dropper is for starting off on steep uphill bits.

Drop the saddle a little so you can get your bum on it. You can then get your weight over the rear tyre for grip when you stab the pedal down. Pop it up to climbing height once you are clipped in.

I’ve had 125mm Brand-x dropper on my race HT on / off for the last year (125mm is waaaay to much for XC).  On / off mainly because I’m a weight weenie and 100% of the XC racing down here in the Eastern region doesn’t need one.  However, for recreational riding it’s much more fun and makes the race bike much more versatile for all the reasons already listed in this thread.  The only negative I have is one of comfort.  I had been using a Chinese knock off of the Canyon carbon leaf spring seat post (VCLS?) which really helped dull impacts coming through the rear triangle.  The dropper post has no give whatsoever.  However, I have decided to MTFU, ride out the saddle more and bought some XTR bits to offset the weight gain (the bike’s not mine!)

On / off mainly because I’m a weight weenie and 100% of the XC racing down here in the Eastern region doesn’t need one.

I'm going to say if there's ANY windy singletrack on your XC race courses, you should get a benefit if you know how to work with it.

Oh do shut up! Plenty folk can ride twisty singletrack fast without the need for a dropper. Especially if they're clipped in.

I didn't say you couldn't ride it fast without one.  I said you would probably find it quicker with one.  And you'd probably gain more speed than you'd lose by weighing 250g more.

All in my estimation.

I’d say 95% of my local trails (QECP, Kingley Vale, Lordswood etc...) I’m either no slower or actually faster with the rigid post on my xc race bike, according to Strava data.

The other 5%, mainly the steeper stuff with big drops & jumps in, I’m absolutely slower and can tell when I ride them that I’m not in as good a place on the bike.

I guess then, it depends on where you ride and what the trails are like. Like so many things in life although generally it’s abgood thing to have a dropper it’s not always the life changing thing it can be made out to be.

My Di2 battery is in the seatpost though so I’m reluctant to change on that bike.

I am currently rebuilding my old Parkwood frame up as a winter/play bike though & that is getting the dropper put on it for sure.

I was an early adopter too; Maverick  Speedball way back in the day was my first dropper, before CB bought the license for them...