[Closed] Drop your tyre pressure. We're destroying the Cairngorm Plateau, apparently

Has anyone seen that [b]MASSIVE ****** SKI RESORT ON THE SIDE OF THE BLOODY MOUNTAIN?
[/b]
Just wondering...

The scottish climbing fraternity is not exactly well known for its tolerant and liberal attitudes.

edit: Which is not to say that it's much better south of the border.

Some interesting logic and open bias against bikers.
Not to mention a lack of scientific understanding.
The tyre pressure argument being rather misunderstood. Lower tyre pressure = larger tyre contact patch on the ground and less pressure from the tyre on the ground surely?

phat bikes FTW 🙂

I like a good old-fashioned "access for no-one except us" argument. Haven't seen one from climbers before, though, that's new to me.

You'll see my contributions under my old STW forum name. When I can be bothered I enjoy winding up some of the silly old buggers. I've come across a lot of their ilk while out in the mountains; thoroughly selfish and conceited in their righteousness. I expect many are retired teachers.

rigid rider or similar?

Its just a daft argument based upon simple prejudice.

If the Cairngorm plateau does need protected then fair enough, but the best way to protect is to reduce usage be all users not just pick on one very small group whose method of enjoying the hills you disagree with.

Complete nonsense. A certain amount of erosion is natural, wind, rain, animals etc. I cant see bikes causing an issue unless there are hundreds of them and it is very wet.

Around me, the most damage to trails is done by horses, second is 4 x 4's.

So the good folk STW are now being played by a troll on another forum?
I'm sure the guy on ukclimbing is creaming himself with all this attention.

So the good folk STW are now being played by a troll on another forum?

So the good folk STW are now being played by a troll on another forum?

Don't worry, I'm sure there's still space here for your contributions. 🙂

He(?) has seen [b]some[/b] bikers around the summit of Cairngorm and thinks that if it gets popular then there'll be increased erosion. Some of the counter-arguments point out the very low numbers of bikers that make the effort to get up there.

It would appear unlikely that the current infrastructure, the funicular, would ever be opened up to take bikers up to the plateau. I believe that they don't take skiers up there, or at least allow them to ski from the top station.

Seems like someone has got a bee in his bonnet and is letting off steam while refusing to let facts, such as they are, get in the way.

I believe that they don't take skiers up there, or at least allow them to ski from the top station.

Erm, not quite, they wont take climbers up, the train takes skiers to the top.

Erm, not quite, they wont take climbers up, the train takes skiers to the top.

Ah, stand corrected, victimising wrong subcategory of outdoor users 😯

I blame the reindeer that hang out on Caingorm

The damage to the track is proportional to the 4th power of the pressure on it. Tyre at 35psi, walker at 150 lbs and 30sq inch sole give 35/5 to power 4, equals over 2000 times damage,

I liked this comment! 2000 times the damage!? This part of Scotland must look like what Hiroshima did in 1945 after a nice sunny day!

Is it just 'cos I'm English? 😯 I've never even been to the Cairngorms. However, using his logic I've seen Scots people on the South & North Downs, there's erosion on the Downs.
Ergo we should ban all Scots people south of the border.

t would appear unlikely that the current infrastructure, the funicular, would ever be opened up to take bikers up to the plateau.

[url= http://www.cairngormmountain.org/mountain-biking-2/ ]It would appear that they do[/url] if only on a limited basis.

It would appear that they do if only on a limited basis

It appears that the riders are 'guided' so can't escape and run amok on the Cairngorm plateau!

If the Cairngorm plateau does need protected then fair enough, but the best way to protect is to reduce usage be all users not just pick on one very small group whose method of enjoying the hills you disagree with.

^^ This

What's he got to say about fatbikes?

To use the funicular to bike the hill you must be guided and use the bikes they provide. No thanks.

Meh. What's all the fuss about?

[img] [/img]

Is 10psi low enough?

Erosion.

So how are HILLS, mountains etc etc formed then? What did Glaciers do and what is happening all the time with plates moving, land levels raises/dropping?!

I think we all know erosion exists as force of nature. Given that what is your point Hora?

Ps they were mainly caused by tectonic plate movement but shaped , ins some areas, by erosion.
The Himalayas are not caused by erosion

Scotsroutes was that smooth before you damaged it?

Ah but it's ukclimbing and no matter what frothing, big hitter one eyed rant you might see here it is a mere amateur non comment compared to them. I was once hounded for weeks because I said it seemed reasonable for my aged parents to have a 4x4 to take horse feed to a horse miles from their house in a field away from the road. Arses the lot of them.

I think we all know erosion exists as force of nature. Given that what is your point Hora?

Its big, its allover and its constant. People saying a subset of a hobby is causing it (or implying) that they are the greatest eroders is erroneous.

That's an OP we'd be proud of.

I saw some bikers riding off the west side of the summit yesterday towards point 1141m and the Cas headwall. If this becomes commonplace (which I suspect it will)

Whataboutery, a hypothetical conclusion he admits he's just made up.

the rate of erosion will rise exponentially

The rate of erosion will rise [i]proportionally.[/i]

What next, quad bike tours to Ben Macdui?

And a slippery slope fallacy for the hat trick. Good troll.

eroders is erroneous

Junkyard - lazarus
Scotsroutes was that smooth before you damaged it?

"Atmosphere of disapproval"

And I thought there were some sanctimonious pricks on here.

Well if it's a troll I've been trolled - I think that might be my first post on there, but I already had a login as you need one to look at the route descriptions and pics.

"Atmosphere of disapproval

So what's an atmosphere of disapproval anyhow - just normal rambler silent grumpiness?

And I thought there were some sanctimonious pricks on here.

It'd be bad enough but that came from one of the best known and most respected voices in scottish mountaineering.

Oh man, the comments on tyres psi relating to 'pressure on the ground' is just painful to read. 🙄

"an atmosphere of disapproval"

[img] [/img]

What have you got against teachers globalti?

There's something slightly ironic in being critical of the point of view of others, and then saying you suspect they're retired teachers.

If you want to be open minded it's not the best way to go about it.

I'm not a teacher, by the way, but some of my best friends are teachers and climbers and mountain bikers as well.

Fancy that!

Complete with ironic outrage from people who hack their way up vegetated crags with sharp axes and some interesting 'made-up on the spot' science

To be fair most of the voices on that thread agree with cyclists right to access the plateau and some have come round to the idea after seeing the lack of evidence. Apart from one or two easily spotted and discredited muppets it's a pretty reasonable thread.

It'd be bad enough but that came from one of the best known and most respected voices in scottish mountaineering

Andy Nisbet is a genuine national treasure. However, just like everyone else he has his own biases and gaps in knowledge.

It would appear that they do if only on a limited basis

It appears that the riders are 'guided' so can't escape and run amok on the Cairngorm plateau!

which would tend to concentrate the riders in one place, surely?

The idea is that they are concentrated in a sacrificial area (Coire Cas) which is already so screwed up that a few more bike tracks wont make any difference.

"an area of fairly level high ground"

why would a climber give a shit about it?

That makes sense, now you've explained it.

The Cairngorm Plateau is an area of unique sub-artic flora and easily damaged. However, (and I must say my opinion on this has changed considerably over the last few years)the 10ft wide paths on the plateau are caused by walkers and a mtb tyre will actually leave less of a mark on the ground because constant pressure is applied rather than the series of impacts caused by boots (I run my tyres at 18psi anyway).
I will get off and push if the ground is boggy or on a descent where I would lock the back wheel on eroded gravely ground (eg Ben Avon down to the Sneck).
Andy Nisbet has done at least 3 rounds of Munros and can probably count the days he's not been up a mountain each year on the fingers of one hand! I guess every interest group believes others are the problem, not themselves.
PS Andy is a legend tho!

For clarification: the "guided" MTB rides are down the wide, gravel access track from the Ptarmigan restaurant and go nowhere near the summit plateau.

Walkers are similarly coralled into groups up the big (mostly stone-built) path to the summit and back again.

In theory, the only folk wandering about on the plateau have got there under their own steam. As a result the number of cyclists is minimal.

RE access for bikes using ski infrastructure. As I understand it the ski area runs a “closed” system for users of the funicular railway, which is what the “guided” bike rides use. Users of the funicular are not permitted to access the plateau due to the conditions attached to its funding/planning. Whether this contravenes Scottish access law is another matter. Guided bike rides descend through the ski area on bulldozed tracks, and the environmental value of the area appears deemed to be negligible in any case as Spin suggests above. You can't use the train to access the plateau, and you can't take a bike up unless on a guided ride so that part of the discussion – unless the situation changes – is irrelevant.

Spin - Member 

To be fair most of the voices on that thread agree with cyclists right to access the plateau and some have come round to the idea after seeing the lack of evidence. Apart from one or two easily spotted and discredited muppets it's a pretty reasonable thread.

Agreed – it does seem fairly balanced. I was more surprised who the OP was, given his long association with the hills and the fact that people have been mtbing on the tops for as long as I can remember, albeit usually in a fairly discreet and conscientious way given the rabid reaction of many to the thought of any kind of activity on the plateau.

poah - Member 
"an area of fairly level high ground"
why would a climber give a shit about it?

I'm guessing you've never been up there, or if so are pretty ignorant of the broader context. Climbers tend to access the plateau a lot – walking over it when accessing climbs, topping out of routes that finish on the edges, snowholing or bivvying etc – so it's hardly surprising they might care about what happens to it even out of narrow self-interest. I'd like to think that many climbers also might have wider reasons for giving a shit about it, but I could be wrong. “The plateau” is also something of a sacred cow, being both massively accessible/ visible, subject to a whole host of landscape designation/ protection, (not very usefully) seen as a “unique”/vulnerable landscape/ habitat …. etc, etc.... and has been the centre of many (often pretty hostile) conflicts between “conservation” lobbies and other groups over the years. So issues around it tend to attract a lot of attention that others wouldn't.

Maybe ironically I've always thought that mtbing could do with more of an explicit “ethics” around access in the way that climbing traditionally has. In Scotland we're lucky that the Land Reform Act (Scotland) 2003 supports cycling access, and that we have responsibilities under the code (as do all users and managers of land). So long as access is responsible, there are few reasonable grounds for conflict. To me therefore the onus is on riders to be responsible and to me that includes not riding in ways that are likely to cause negative effects on the environment (erosion, damage or disturbance to local species etc.). The plateau is not a special case in this respect, and if it can't be ridden responsibly then, in my opinion, it shouldn't be ridden. However, in all my years of riding, running, skiing and climbing on the hills and the plateau itself, I don't think this can be demonstrated to be the case. You can bike in the Cairngorms responsibly, accessing summits and plateau areas using a number of routes – but that doesn't mean you can or should ride anywhere you like, whenever you like, however you like. Its all about common sense and respect for others and the environment innit.

[edit] crossposting with scotroutes and chickenman makes most of that redundant anyway. Oh well...

@bajsyckel A nice summary.

Are there any numbers on usage within the national park by all groups? I suspect that the fuss is actually about very few numbers. I don't know how hard it is to bike up to the summit area of Cairngorm, I've only ever walked up there from the top of the Fiacaill Ridge or when returning from Loch A'an, but I can't imagine that there'd be many who be up for it, there's no mega descent that's shouted about like for example Carn Ban Mor.

I'm probably up there more than most (and mostly on foot) and I've never yet met another cyclist on the plateau. Seem some tracks right enough, but not so many as to think it's a major problem.

Most of the commenters on ukc seem fairly level -headed which is reassuring, and there are plenty of rational voices to balance the scales from within that forum. Of the people that seem to have a problem with mtbers, one has even stated he just doesn't like them.

It's just narrow minded nimbyism by a vocal minority isn't it?

I'm not sure it's even nimbyism, more like nisebyism.

It's a total non isue IMO.
Numbers biking on the plateau are tiny. The plateau is over 200 square miles, bikers ride on paths almost exclusively (apart from a few idiots on fatbikes, with their stupid grins). Those paths make up a tiny proportion of the area. The nature of the area and the effort involved in getting there means it really doesn't attract many 'skidders'.

bikers? I hate the bastards (pure prejudice)

Dirty biking nature rapists.

We'll all burn in hell I tell thee.