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I’ve been lent a prototype/work in progress/proof of concept gravel/monstercross/drop bar mountain bike thing to have a play with and see what I think. Think Salsa Fargo – rufty tufty verging on an MTB, rather than a roadbike with bigger tyres (this has 700c wheels with 2” WTB Ventures on). It’s got a pair of flared drops on (Alpkit Love Mud ones), set up pretty high.
…and I’m utterly not getting the point of the drop bars…
Firstly – let me say I’m very happy with drops on road (and I’ve been using them for the best part of 20yrs). It makes sense there. Aero trumps everything, and there’s no need to throw the bike around in the same way. I’m in decent shape with good flexibility – my roadies run about a 75mm drop from saddle to bars, and I’m very happy with that for decent distance.
My own “gravel” bike is my old 26” Cotic Soda with rigid forks, 650b wheels and 47mm tyres, 710mm flat bars and a pair of bar ends mounted inboard of the brake levers for an “on the hoods” position. It feels pretty quick on tarmac and climbing (did alright with it at the Grinduro) and you can ride easyish singletrack like it’s a mountainbike (which it kind of is). If you were to think of a mid/late 90s MTB, it’s not too far from that shape. I've enjoyed riding it a lot in the year or so it's been in this guise
I’m quite taken with the bigger wheels on the borrowed thing – noticeably smoother and more stable descending, although takes more effort to wind them up (I’m not a 29er MTB fan, generally).
But back to bars. To get the drops high enough to be useful (and they’re still 2” lower than the grips on my own bike), it makes the hoods and the flats WAAAY too close and high to be useful. I simply couldn’t deal with them for more than a minute or 2 at a time. Sitting bolt upright and acting like a sail on the road (I had a 7mile road drag into the wind and could find nowhere to hide from it on the bike - all the aero benefits of drop bars have been lost), or bent over to a more usual back position but feeling very T-Rexy and having to have really bent arms (hard work) or hold it all with my core (again hard work, and I have a pretty damn strong core). Very little weight on the front wheel that way too, so any steep/technical climbing is back in the drops.
The drops position felt OK - descending in the hooks feels nice and secure, but it’s still too low to be able to move the bike around (although providing I could plan ahead, I could bunnyhop it OK). I ended up feeling wedged between the bars and the saddle as I couldn’t keep my hands in the drops AND get back over the saddle as soon as the ground steepened up – basically ended up being a passenger; but the elbows in position the drops push you into also means its awkward to try and get over the front to weight it for corners. There were a couple of trails that felt ace (consistent gentle gradient, non rocky/rooty/steppy), but most of the time I was fighting the bike rather than working with it.
Potentially you could drop the bars back towards a more normal road position and add crosstop levers, but your hands would be way too close together for any kind of control.
The only real benefit I found to the drops was that my wrists were in better shape, post ride, than normal.
So why drops on the majority of gravel/adventure bikes? It just feels all arse about face. I’d love to try this bike with a pair of Jones or Moustache bars – try and replicate the hand position of the drops position, but at “flat bar height”, but with all the alternative hand positions at the same height as the grips, NOT 4” higher….
Thoughts?
Thoughts? We're all different.
As for your elbows-in problem, try more flared drops like Woodchippers.
It also sounds like the bike just didn't fit you and/or you need to get used to it.
but the elbows in position the drops push you into also means its awkward to try and get over the front to weight it for corners. There were a couple of trails that felt ace (consistent gentle gradient, non rocky/rooty/steppy), but most of the time I was fighting the bike rather than working with it.
Sounds like the problem is with the prototype frame, not with the handlebars that 1000s of us have no problems with.
sounds like you want a 1992 stumpjumper rather than a gravel bike.
Sounds like the bike's too small (or has too short a reach) for you especially given your "T-Rex" comment.
Sounds like the bike’s too small (or has too short a reach) for you especially given your “T-Rex” comment.
And the ‘sitting bolt upright’ bit.
OK, you might not be wrong with the sizing comments, but how do you get past the issue of "if the drops are high enough to descend off road, then all the other normal hand positions are going to be way to high to be useful"
To me it feels like forcing drops onto the bike because they're current "gravel fashion" rather than because they're the best answer.
I've worked on and ridden a couple of gravel events now (Dirty Reivers, Grinduro and some local Velotastic rides) and so many riders on drop bar bikes seem utterly terrified of descending. I'm a reasonable bike handler, but by no means exceptional - on my own bike it feels like I'm doing a different sport when I'm riding with them - its just so much more confident, but based on yesterday I can see why the majority of riders are so tense when riding.
This is my thing by the way...
Thoughts?
Well, my "gravel" bike has the same position as my road bike. In fact they both have the same frame and are basically interchangeable (below is my road bike with gravel tyres and gearing, as I didn't manage to get the gravel one resprayed for that trip).
This means it reaches its limits on technical terrain sooner than a mountain bike. Flat bars would fix that somewhat, but I hate flat bars for the road. So I just don't try to ride it like it's a mountain bike. And it's fine. Works out great for big miles of mixed terrain but I accept its limits. If I didn't want to, I'd ride something with flat bars and bigger tyres, but I'd accept that I wouldn't use it for big days out on tarmac and gravel.
But anyway: IME trying to set the bars high doesn't work; better to just ride it like a road bike with big tyres, and play to its strengths.
This is my thing by the way…
I'm kinda stuck in the 90s, but to me that's just a bog standard mountain bike.
the bars on your MTB seem higher than I would set up my road, CX or gravel bike. I'm not sure the inboard bar ends are actually replicating being on the hoods.
I’ve worked on and ridden a couple of gravel events now (Dirty Reivers, Grinduro and some local Velotastic rides) and so many riders on drop bar bikes seem utterly terrified of descending.
Judging by my road club, roadies coming from road to gravel, rather than mountain bikers coming from mountain biking to gravel, tend to have that look. See also mud, off camber
Why not?
It's really just a curly bit of tube to get your hands into a comfortable position. If it doesn't, it's the wrong curly tube, and you should fit whatever gives you best control.
I always felt safer in the drops for descents. There's a few factors worth considering.
Your hands are nicely hooked in, so a tight grip isn't necessary, and with rigid forks, that lessens the effects of vibration and impacts.
Better control of the brakes.
And this may seem counter-intuitive but your CoG is lower, and for me at least, it's easier to push my weight (CoG) back as well.
The negative for being in the drops for descents is the lower sightline means edges and holes look much steeper and deeper.
on mine, a Vagabond, the tops are higher than on my MTBs and the drops are lower. Gives a great variety of positions for different terrain
Clearly everyone who has a drop bar gravel bike is wrong.
What Bez said
that’s just a bog standard mountain bike
At best its a shit mountain bike. Its certainly not a bog standard one anymore.
This is a bog standard mountainbike, and its a radically different beast to ride (please excuse all the tat hung off it)
the bars on your MTB
a) see above comment about what an MTB is 🙂
b) having just measured, the bars are 50mm below the saddle, which is 25mm higher than my roadbikes, but then it gets ridden in a different environment, so the set up will be different! I don't tend to rest the web of my thumb on the bar ends as you would on the hoods (although I can)- its more like the position on the corners of the tops. Net result either way is to pull my elbows in and makes for a good comfortable trucking along on tarmac position.
roadies coming from road to gravel, rather than mountain bikers coming from mountain biking to gravel, tend to have that look. See also mud, off camber
So why not play to your weaknesses and choose a bike that will make the stuff that you struggle with easier?
Its certainly not a bog standard one anymore.
Yeah, I know, hence the bit I typed before that which you didn't include 🙂
Fundamentally, it's flat bars, wide tyres, moderately upright position… I mean, it's just a bike and it doesn't generally help to pigeon hole stuff, but to me that's more MTB—albeit one you're probably not going to compete at Fort William on—than "gravel bike" in the current parlance.
If you prefer the benefits of flat bars off road, great. But plenty of people want something that rides like a road bike on tarmac and gentle off road, whilst being able to manage some more demanding off road in a compromised fashion. And for that, drop bars work just fine.
So why not play to your weaknesses and choose a bike that will make the stuff that you struggle with easier?
Because a lot of people buy them as an alternative to a road bike. Not as an alternative to an mtb in the way you clearly regard them.
But plenty of people want something that rides like a road bike on tarmac and gentle off road, whilst being able to manage some more demanding off road in a compromised fashion.
Because a lot of people buy them as an alternative to a road bike
To go back to my original post
Think Salsa Fargo – rufty tufty verging on an MTB, rather than a roadbike with bigger tyres
The guy who's loaned me this already makes a drop bar roadbike/towpath/citybike all purpose kinda thing. But he's getting a solid bunch of enquiries from guys wanting to run suspension forks and/or dropper posts on it - hence it actually needs to be capable of being ridden on semi-technical terrain.
I get if your view of gravel is a US centric "national park with 2000 miles of unsealed road", then a slightly relaxed road bike with bigger tyres would work. But for UK riding where it's horsed up field edges, rubbly doubletrack, bits of woodland singletrack, potholed forestry commission access roads, all linked together with plenty of road sections, I'm not feeling its the right answer. .
We've been through this countless times. There are miles and miles and miles of good gravel track in the UK.
And we've been here before. someone posting a thinly-concealed rant and sticking their fingers in their ears whilst loudly singing "la, la, la" and refusing to hear any position contrary to their own prejudice.
Whoever lent you the bike needs to find someone with a more open mind. And someone who actually fits the frame.
But for UK riding where it’s horsed up field edges, rubbly doubletrack, bits of woodland singletrack, potholed forestry commission access roads, all linked together with plenty of road sections, I’m not feeling its the right answer. .
We did all of those and more on a two-dayer earlier this month in France, with luggage. Sure, a couple of steep and technical bits would have been easier on mountain bikes, but considering we were aiming to knock out 100 miles a day, gravel bikes were spot on.
And we’ve been here before. someone posting a thinly-concealed rant and sticking their fingers in their ears whilst loudly singing “la, la, la” and refusing to hear any position contrary to their own prejudice.
This.
I’ve worked on and ridden a couple of gravel events now (Dirty Reivers, Grinduro and some local Velotastic rides) and so many riders on drop bar bikes seem utterly terrified of descending
Mrs Kilo and I did grinduro on our cx bikes last week, wouldn’t fancy it on a flat barred bike tbh, too much road and fire track climbing. Only remember one slightly technical descent on the whole thing
I’ve worked on and ridden a couple of gravel events now (Dirty Reivers, Grinduro and some local Velotastic rides) and so many riders on drop bar bikes seem utterly terrified of descending. I’m a reasonable bike handler, but by no means exceptional – on my own bike it feels like I’m doing a different sport when I’m riding with them – its just so much more confident, but based on yesterday I can see why the majority of riders are so tense when riding.
Looks to me they are just not enjoying themselves...
Kaz and me on PBW.
Probably not as fast as on the full bounce but pretty brisk I would say...
32c tyres though...
Cheers!
I.
And we’ve been here before. someone posting a thinly-concealed rant and sticking their fingers in their ears whilst loudly singing “la, la, la” and refusing to hear any position contrary to their own prejudice.
Usually about once a week. If a gravel bike with drops is not for you just move on. You don't have to ride what others are riding, you don't have to understand what others are riding - just ride what you enjoy and not worry about if you are missing out on something.
I was using drops for a while but recently have been using risers as I fancied a change and find risers a bit more fun to ride (wheelie, hopping over things, singletrack etc,.) but in a few months time will probably be back on drops again.
And we’ve been here before. someone posting a thinly-concealed rant and sticking their fingers in their ears whilst loudly singing “la, la, la” and refusing to hear any position contrary to their own prejudice.
Whoever lent you the bike needs to find someone with a more open mind. And someone who actually fits the frame.
<<yawn, rather>> Its not a rant, trust me, and I'm trying to be open minded, hence a) trying new things and b) trying to spark a debate and understand why I'm not getting something that lots of other people obviously do. Largely all I'm getting back is "you're wrong, we're right, now shut up" rather than an active discussion on why a certain set up is more advantageous. I still haven't had any reply to how you keep the hoods and tops of drop bars useable if you've raised them to a height where you can descend offroad in a relaxed fashion on the hooks.
Mrs Kilo and I did grinduro on our cx bikes last week, wouldn’t fancy it on a flat barred bike tbh, too much road and fire track climbing
Whereas I found my flat bar bike absolutely spot on, and only served to restate to me why I think bikes like mine are a better answer. Interestingly the pro women's winner was on a proper mountain bike (Rocky Mountain Vertex). I can see the appeal - the only stage you'd actively lose time on was 3, the long draggy climb.
@IvanMTB - Roych Clough and Coldwells Clough? Fair play. I could survive it on my Soda (hell its all we had 20 years ago and we coped then), but no where near as fun as my Soul, and no where near as pure ballistically fast as my Rocket is.
I still haven’t had any reply to how you keep the hoods and tops of drop bars useable if you’ve raised them to a height where you can descend offroad in a relaxed fashion on the hooks.
I'll reply - With a properly set up position the hooks don't need to be any higher than you'd have them on a road bike, so the tops/hoods stay in the same useful position as they've always been.
I still haven’t had any reply to how you keep the hoods and tops of drop bars useable if you’ve raised them to a height where you can descend offroad in a relaxed fashion on the hooks.
Well you could start by getting a bike that fitted you.
It doesn’t seem to occur to you that this is a mountain bike forum and that some people have actually got mountain bikes to compare our gravel bikes to. We all understand the drawbacks of a drop bar bike. If the compromises don’t suit you, that’s just fine. Just don’t assume that you have an answer that other people are unaware of.
What Simon said Bez said.
To be honest that also looks like a mountain bike trail 🙂
That said, I see where you're coming from though. I started a similar conversation a few weeks back.
In the end, I tried some swept flat bars on my gravel bike for the same reason you didn't like drops (i.e. it seemed to me that putting the drops high enough to feel good descending was going to leave the hoods to high to be useful.)
I actually went back to the drop bars after a couple of rides, but with an extra 1cm spacer underneath a shorter stem (60mm replacing an 80mm). The hoods feel good still, and the drops much better.
It helps that I've got a dropper, so I can get my whole body down not just my arms. It also helps the the Ritchey Venturemax bars I use have a very shallow drop, even by gravel bar standards. I'd take shallower still, and I do think something a different shape to basically any bar on the market currently would be better for proper mixed riding. But the Ritchey's will definitely do for now.
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/i-still-cant-makes-sense-of-dropbars-off-road/
It's an interesting question, I designed a monstercross recently and went through much head scratching trying to work out the correct bar placement.
I found the traditional CX drop setup as scary (and as uncomfortable) as anything on tech descents and aimed for the bars to be about level with the saddle. Combined with a good length top tube (585mm), 80mm stem and Salsa Woodchippers I find the hoods and drops very useable.
Off road on the drops your elbows are kicked out for a nice wide stance, and you're able to use one fingered braking - it properly tanks downhill!
I don't think it's going to win any awards for aerodynamics on the road, but for giving a variety of hand position options it seem to work well.
Roych Clough and Coldwells Clough?
Yes it is. As mentioned, will be much quicker on full bounce. But considering that we've made on that day over 60 miles with less than 10% on such surface drop bars and narrow tyres gave us massive advantage and allowed to finish it in some reasonable time.
Additionally, this priceless feeling when you are over-taking big boys on the big bikes on your skinny tubed-skinny wheeled crosser on South Head uphill.
More of a interesting challenge and experience. Same as doing Jaggers Clough and Potato Alley on my Charge Plug3 🙂
Cheers!
I.
To be honest that also looks like a mountain bike trail 🙂
The grassy double-track? I’d ride that on any of my bikes but wonder why I was wearing out the bits on my 150mm trail bike unless I was heading to more challenging trails. The CX or Vagabond would lap that up.
You know your gravel bike is just right when the roadies think it's too much of a compromise, and the mtbers also think that.
The difference between gravel and monstercross is probably just narrower drops and tyres on the gravel bike.
The difference between gravel and monstercross is probably just narrower drops and tyres on the gravel bike.
I was thinking about this the other day. At 24/12 a few years ago there were demo bikes available and I was chatting to the guy on the stand. I mentioned the Vagabond (first year of production, iirc) and he replied that he didn’t think of that as a monster-cross. I wish I’d asked him more about that.
Sounds like what you could go for is a modern 29er XC hardtail race bike. I have one that weighs about 20lbs, scoots along on the road almost as fast as a gravel bike especially when set with the flat bars racey and low. A 2.1 Thunder Burt semislick on rear is as fast as most gravel tyres, and yet can ride anything i'd normally ride on full-suss, albeit much more delicately. Hand positions can be resolved by not having such a modern wide bar width and having an ergonomic bar end - think Ergon....like a 90's mtb but much faster...
So why drops on the majority of gravel/adventure bikes?
imo because they're mostly based on road bikes, and that's fine. Fat tyre road bikes than can do a bit of off road are great. A rigid 29er with drops isn't so great imo. Some people like them but I'm with you on drops just not working for proper off road, as well as the bikes being too cumbersome or heavy overall to be good road bikes. It's all a grey area of terrain and expectations though, ie there's quite a few jack of all trade bikes that do nothing that well, but are still great for some riders?
I’m with you on drops just not working for proper off road,
But nobody uses them for ‘proper off-road’. Most of us use our MTBs for that. I know quite a few riders with gravel bikes of some description. None of them only has a gravel bike.
I still haven’t had any reply to how you keep the hoods and tops of drop bars useable if you’ve raised them to a height where you can descend offroad in a relaxed fashion on the hooks.
I’m actually a little surprised anyone has found this to be a problem. Mine was all good straight from the off, didn’t put any more thought into it than “I fancy trying some flared bars and those ones are cheap”
I’d say everyone is different and the riding being done is different but I suspect it’s been done once or twice before.
FWIW, I love my gravel bike. For what I ride with it it’s great fun. I’ve a hard tail and full sus if needed but by far the most miles are done on the gravel bike. It just works better for most of the time.
I get the OP’s question. I have two bikes that get used for long distances on a mix of road and off-road. One’s a Swift with a 3in Knard up front and Jones loops; one’s a Pickenflick with 40c Nanos and wide flared drops set pretty high.
I don’t think I’d put drops on the Swift because it’s what I use for off-road focused rides and they‘d compromise its off-road potential.
I might lower the drops on the Pickenflick if I knew I was doing a long ride mainly on road and super-tame gravel.
Yes, the high drops are a compromise but I find it a good one. I use the drops way more than I do on my road bike and the higher position on the tops is fine for spinning along.
But the compromise is the same the other way, for genuine gravel rides, drop bar is better. It’s all down to the ride.
The big gravel rides I’ve done on my gravel bike are about 95% perfect for my gravel bike, including SDW, Ridgeway, Exmoor and Salisbury green lanes. Also done a couple of CX Sportive rides, ranging from 50 to 120 miles. The best bike for this was a gravel bike with drop bars.
The small sections where I wanted a mtb were just that, small. My mtb would have been much faster on these sections but then it would have been a lot slower on the rest of the ride.
I actually do a lot of gravel rides on my winter road bike (hydraulic discs and 35mm tyres). It’s better on my full gravel bike but that’s down to the 42mm semi knobbly tyres. Unfortunately there’s not a one bike fits all solution, each has a compromise.
But nobody uses them for ‘proper off-road’.
I don't mean proper as in 4ft drops or full on tech, just natural mountain trails vs smooth byways.
It is simply just compromises and where you personally draw the line based on your preferences.
A gravel bike is more like a road bike so would have road bike fit and drops
A monster cross bike could handle rougher terrain better but the cross bit would suggest a larger tyred cyclocross bike which always has drops
I personally ride a tracklocross bike where people tend to use risers but some use drops. Same bike, same terrain different preferences. No right or wrong and no need to understand it or feel you are missing something if your preference is different from someone else.
just natural mountain trails
I’d just use a mountain bike. Which I think is what most people are actually doing most of the time. I’m sure there’s plenty of Instagram images of folk gnarring their way down some mountain. But the average gravel bike I see is nipping along the coastal path with the odd splash of slightly rooty singletrack rounded off with a healthy dollop of tarmac and sustrans bike path.
I'm in the increasingly unenviable position to compare.
Bike 1: Genesis Vagabond 29er monstercross with drops and inline cross-tops
Bike 2: Genesis Longitude 29er mtb with straight bars/Ergon bar-ends
Both medium, and luckily each fits glovelike. Bought for general use, fitness, mucking about in woods a bit, adventure-touring/bikepacking, commuting, towpath/gravel-touring, road transitions, errands etc
One in-one out. One must win.
Sense tells me that the Longitude is the all-roundy all-rounder, with sliding dropouts, bosses, more frame space/longer wheeelbase, etc
Riding both bikes consecutively - have to be honest the Vagabond with drops feels the most natural/comfortable, amd dare I say 'exciting' of the two. It has a very long head tube and a number of spacers, so is very upright with stem flipped up - great for ATB bimbling on the top. In the drops and on the hoods it's fine. With stem flipped lower it's better than fine, actually really natural-feeling and I enjoy changing hand positions regularly.
Already getting numb hands on the Longitude after an hour. Probably the grips/bar ends need fettling but is a little too stretched out so need to get more upright. Yet to try some Geoff Bars on it before finally deciding. Out of the two bikes the Vagabond is really anmoying my decision process as it's so ridiculously comfortable in so many different situations EXCEPT tricky trails on the hoods, yet when in the hooks it becomes hair-raisingly fast but perfectly stable. It rides lighter too, despite being Deore equipped with weighty wheels. Comfort might not be what you are after, OP? My head says Longitude with flats or loops, my heart says Vagabond just because it feels ace even though it's a shorter wheelbase than ideal for me. Somewhere between the two bikes (IME) is the perfect do it all bike with the least compromise.
For aggressive/competitive riding then obviously a do-it-all configuration is always going to be a compromise too far. That's why I also keep an aggressive hardtail in the stable. But that won't be carrying me on multi-day/week tours or even carrying the groceries. As for more aggressive 'gravel' options? Er... no idea. Seems a bit weird? It takes all sorts 😉