[Closed] Drilling frame for a stealth reverb Orange Alpine 160

I just drilled a 4mm hole in mine then angled/rounded it with a rat tailed file.Nice and tight to the hose so no need for a grommit.

Drilling a slot makes the routing easier. Two small pilot holes. Then larger. Then file between the two.

Rorschach can you take a photo of how you've done yours? I'm interested too, as KS only do a 150mm drop in the integra.

[img] [/img]
It's helpful that the st is about 3ft thick!!

http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/archive/2014/alpine-160_frame/

swing arm is in the way, need to find a good route,,

Take the swingarm off.About 30mm up from BB on front face of st.Run up the top of the downtube through shock mount.Couple of stick on guides or better still SUGRU....jobs a goodun'

http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/bikes/alpine-160-frame

new Alpine seems to come out just above shock mount, must go down through BB and up. On mine the BB is solid no holes into the seattube or down tube.

Swing arm off then drill, need to get a new stealth post my old reverb is 5 years old in November still going strong but a bit wobbly 😀

P clips hold hoses and cables in place by shock

Interesting thread as I'm looking to do the same on my Scott Voltage - so basically at least 30mm above the BB on the front face of the seat tube.

Is anyone who's doing / done this using a grommit?

I thought about drilling the seat tube and decided what's the point - still have 6 miles of tubing floating about.

Got it drilled in a much more convenient spot;

[img] [/img]

Mine is on a full sus so I have the linkage etc to feed the cable through. - Keen to keep the cable out of the way

As a mechanical engineering graduate, can I just chip in with the input that drilling holes in a frame is a [i]really[/i] bad idea.

can I just chip in with the input that drilling holes in a frame is a really bad idea.

So all these manufacturers who drill holes in their frames are doing a bad thing?

I'd better repair the bottle boss holes, cable end holes and hose holes too then?

tbf, mine is a cheap NOS frame that if it dies isn't the end of the world and was drilled and sealed by a composites expert.

From a structural integrity perspective, yes. Also, internal routing means that cable wear becomes invisible and could lead to catastrophic failure without warning.

I think the main problem is that designers are not necessary very aware of fracture mechanics or stress risers and more concerned with a 'clean' look to sell more units.

are you a recent graduate..

Have another look at the bottle boss holes...see if they're just a hole in a tube or has some reinforcing material been added...

As a mechanical engineering graduate, can I just chip in with the input that drilling holes in a frame is a really bad idea.

As an automotive engineering undergraduate (finished 3rd year) and having built 3 frames myself (all of which I've drilled holes for cables), what's the worst that can happen? 😉

de Havilland Comet?

I drilled my Hemlock, had a coversation with Cy that went like "This is probably the best place, but I'm not going to promise it doesn't break in half". Which seemed fair to me. If I remember rightly it was as close to the BB and as far away from any holes and pivots as possible, basically avoiding weak spots and high load areas. I put it about 2 inches up from the BB just because a) it's a good place for hose curve and b, tool access.

On an Orange I'd avoid drilling out through the bottom of the BB shell as that's a fairly common failure point for them already... Not that a new hole necessarily makes that any worse, I don't know the cause of those cracks but it's not likely to help...

And yep, don't make a round hole, make a slot. The hose needs to go through at an angle.

Have another look at the bottle boss holes...see if they're just a hole in a tube or has some reinforcing material been added...

Liteville produced a very helpful guide to drilling their frames, might help with placement and hole size.

[url= http://syntace.my1.cc/liteville/pdf/RockShox_Reverb_Stealth_an_Liteville_engl.pdf ]http://syntace.my1.cc/liteville/pdf/RockShox_Reverb_Stealth_an_Liteville_engl.pdf[/url]

So all these manufacturers who drill holes in their frames are doing a bad thing?

That's the point though, isn't it? The manufacturers design and build the frames taking in to account where they want to put holes and how these holes will affect the frame.

Some numb head in his/her garage does not have access to how said frame was designed so is taking a risk. If I was that desperate to have stealth routing I'd buy a frame that already accepts it.

"don't make a round hole"

That de Havilland Comet mentioned is a sort of famous fracture mechanics disaster case. Airliners that crashed repeatedly because they had square windows in an aluminium body - on account of the sharp edges resulting in stress risers and a start point for a crack and resultant fracture. So, I would really strongly caution against any sort of a hole - on a micro scale, a drill or filling away can leave all sorts of jagged edges that honestly would drastically reduce the strength of the frame and cause it to fail (crash - ouch etc) unexpectedly.

"bottle boss"
Sure there's a nut thread - which at a bare minimum would protect tube in similar way to why eyelet rims are stronger than without - but often the fitting is such that the threaded part becomes a structural part of the hole and would serve to limit crack propagation.

"Cy"
A bike maker with a mechanical engineering degree and "I'm not going to promise it doesn't break in half" is a good honest call.

That's the point though, isn't it? The manufacturers design and build the frames taking in to account where they want to put holes and how these holes will affect the frame.

Some numb head in his/her garage does not have access to how said frame was designed so is taking a risk. If I was that desperate to have stealth routing I'd buy a frame that already accepts it.

I have a 2012 frame that didn't have stealth routing, the 2013 frame is identical in every other way other than a slot drilled for stealth routing.

guess where i drilled the slot...

"The manufacturers design and build the frames taking in to account where they want to put holes and how these holes will affect the frame"

Well...not necessarily - I'd be willing to bet the engineers face-palmed the designers decision to cut open new Specialized down tubes to make a box for snacks. Already, there's such painfully bad design from other makers that results in internal routing rubbing against carbon steerers in forks!

PLEASE, LEAVE YOUR CABLES OUTSIDE & USE A FRAME PROTECTOR STICKY rather than get busy with a drill/file for a clean look and cause a hurty tumble and red-face on the trails

@alsolofty - Do you think you need to be a chartered engineer to be a frame builder then?

"Do you think you need to be a chartered engineer to be a frame builder then?"

I didn't mean to come across as a know-it-all, and I'm well aware of frame-building tradition that shares more in common with artistic black-smithery than book-learning, but there's a few subtle concepts that maybe don't make common sense to begin with - like:

1. Temperature stuff - metal looks pretty robust stuff, but the mechanical properties can be radically altered according to heat treatment - so getting busy with welding kit might really ruin the strength of the tubes without a bit of tech nouse informing it all.

2. Work hardening - I've had a browse through books by contemporary frame builders and it is fully frightening watching them bend a fork and then think they can unbend it back a bit into shape with no impact on strength.

3. Fracture mechanics - (soz for geek) but do you remember those glass rods for stirring beakers with in chemistry class? Ok so in a test machine, try bending them until they snap - then dunk them in hydrofluoric acid for a bit to remove surface scratches etc and try bending them again - serious orders of magnitude stronger before they snap! Similarly rubbing a gear cable away at the inside of a frame WILL have majorly weakening effect on it.

4. CNC kit is mostly crap. Sorry HOPE/Chris King etc - all hype over substance. Compared with a forged compenent, the internal stress distibution of a CNC component is way less than optimum. In real engineering, CNC is used to make a prototype and then use a different technique to make a robust item.

[i] In real engineering, CNC is used to make a prototype and then use a different technique to make a robust item.[/i]

I think you'll find that in real engineering people assess the loads a component is likely to be placed under during it's working life and use a material and manufacturing technique that produces something fit for purpose.

Sometimes that will involve CNC, sometimes not.

"I think you'll find that in real engineering people assess the loads a component is likely to be placed under during it's working life and use a material and manufacturing technique that produces something fit for purpose."

OK - but, consider a stem - a CNC unit with the same structural strength as a forged unit, will just weigh more because it's not the optimum strength for weight solution. Sure it looks trick and sells well, but it's inefficient component design. Machining is generally used to face/finish, for small runs or tricky shaped stuff, but it mostly results in components with poor structural properties compared to comparable alternative techniques.

It's carbon - metal fatigue, work hardening, fracture mechanics and CNC can kiss my hairy backside.

If grit and stuff was getting into the frame on a regular basis maybe wear abrasion would be a problem.

Most people who drill carbon use a slot because it's easier to do - in my case it was drilled at the correct angle, was ring reinforced (ohh matron!) internally and then correctly sealed.

We all understand the reasons for not doing it (it's why most manufacturers will just give a blanket "do not do" after all) but we wanna know if anyone has done it and are they dead yet?

In my case, yes and no.

[i]OK - but, consider a stem - a CNC unit with the same structural strength as a forged unit, will just weigh more because it's not the optimum strength for weight solution.[/i]

you're not wrong, just ignoring the point I was making that it's about fitness for purpose of the resulting component not just slavishly avoiding CNC for the sake of it.

4. CNC kit is mostly crap. Sorry HOPE/Chris King etc - all hype over substance. Compared with a forged compenent, the internal stress distibution of a CNC component is way less than optimum. In real engineering, CNC is used to make a prototype and then use a different technique to make a robust item.

Hope and Middleburn and Chromag and others forge a blank to a near net shape then CNC that. CNC'ing from random bits of billet is stupid/impossible depending on internal stresses of that. Buddy of mine tells funny story of trying to machine chainring from odd bits of plate that then curled up like a saucer.

I did it to an Enduro.

Raced it, uplifted it even did some xc mincing on it.

Didn't die.

"It's carbon...fracture mechanics can kiss my hairy backside"

Hmm, I really wish that was true! There might be a very good reason why warranties are generally shorter for carbon composite frames/kit.

Also, drilling into a carbon composite tube could really ruin the integrity of the fibre lay-up - moving beyond the micro scale level of making a new handy spot for a crack to sprout from.

"If grit and stuff was getting into the frame on a regular basis maybe wear abrasion would be a problem."

I admire your optimism! It might be that just the cable outer is more than capable of scratching the tube inside - and even just scratches really can hugely lower the strength of kit. Also, even internal routing done by the manufacturer isn't competently sealed - it's a rubber grommet so it doesn't rattle in the shop or California at best.

I'm only posting to try and prevent an ouch - soz if I come across as just wanting to pretend I'm clever or point-score.

"Hope...and others forge a blank to a near net shape then CNC that. "

fair enough - but I sometimes see lots of machining done on surfaces that don't require it, seemingly for aesthetic reasons. Didn't mean to single out one manufacturer, but from the HOPE website about their seat clamp, "CNC machined from billet 2014 T6 aluminium" and to most customers, if it looks trick and shiny it gets bought! The fact that a forged clamp could be lighter and stronger seems to be sidestepped a bit.

(anyway, the CNC thing was just an aside about how, sadly, it not always most sensible engineering strategies that are used by wider bicycle industry)

I'm messing to an extent, I know you're being helpful - but cable on frame rub does bugger all - cable on frame with muck grinds holes in stuff.

The hose is zip-tied in place so won't be moving much - couple that with little to no muck and I'm betting the frame will last longer than the drivechain/forks.

The frame was reinforced and re-sealed to stop cracks propagating - carbon fibre is a lot more repairable than alu.

If it hasn't died yet (it hasn't) it'll keep going for ages.

Bikes aren't spaceships, they aren't designed to the n'th degree. Sensibly drilling holes in them is fine.

Get off your "I'm an engineer" high horse, no one cares.

"they aren't designed to the n'th degree"

Maybe true. But, lighter weights can be a factor in shifting units and extra drilling might be enough to cause failure in a situation an intact frame would have survived.

We've sort of been here before - in the context of lightweight road racing bicycles, it used to be all-go to spend evenings drilling nearly everything - but significantly the thin wall frame tubes were left intact - less weight to loose for one but also maybe to avoid risk of a tumble.

So it seems the feeling from those who have done it that it isn't a massive issue if placed in the right place. Right?

The reason for doing it is the cable routing is a nightmare and the cable kinks quite badly when the seat is lowered which catches on my pads/legs. Had to replace the hose once already due to a kink forming in it.

If drilling 2 small holes in a frame is enough to make it fail then it was going to fail anyway.

Drilling components to remove weight and drilling for internal cables are two totally different scenarios.

Drilling components to remove weight and drilling for internal cables are two totally different scenarios.

In what way? I'd assume the former having more impact on strength and stability than the latter

Bushwacked - I'd assume the former having more impact on strength and stability than the latter

In exactly that way

With stealth hosing there should be little to no hose movement anyway, it's not fretting away like moving cables do. Well, you could possibly route it so it does but with the normal "exit the seattube then run outside to the bars" approach it shouldn't do, and easy to avoid.

In the defence of recent engineering graduates, I'd point everyone at the reliability disaster that was the Scott Hi-voltage. The one with the integrated mudguard on the downtube, which all(most all) cracked around the tube where it bolted on.

Not really sure how the failure of a designed in feature has any relevance against the modification of a different frame.

This has descended into a rather predictable STW engineeringy-types argument.

Good luck guys! 🙂

Whyte have been drilling their frames and running all cables internally for a few years now and they are doing it for 2016 too.. If frames where folding and failing i'm pretty sure they wouldn't do it.
There's a disproportionately high number of Whytes in my riding club and none have failed or had any issues despite plenty of abuse and neglect.
There's plenty of other manufacturers doing the same and shifting large units without issues.. 🙄

Hey I don't want to overstate my tech-skills, but I'm certain that every 3rd yr FractureMechanics paper option on a mech eng undergrad basic course would learn about the de Haviland Comet dramas - it's a different situation with cutting square holes in a fat plane sized aluminium tube but also was a massively bigger budget project than bike frame design.

I'd be willing to bet a car that the general decision to route cables internally came from a graphic designer, rather than an engineer and that after groans there was (hopefully) a design tweak to strengthen the tubes.

It's a tough life for aeroplanes or bike frames - built light out of stuff that doesn't really like lots of repeated flexing - and honestly cutting a hole in a thin wall tube is adding to risk - especially if not part of original design.

Have a nosy at those lightweight drilled road racers - it was a bit trial and error - but drop-outs, brakes, cranks even were considered fair game - never the frame tubes - even tho they were steel and much more likely to bend fail rather than snap like how aluminium alloy & composite stuff breaks.

Sadly, it does happen that products fail - news to me about those Scott's - but that would have been a reinforced hole with a thread insert rather than just like a rim without eyelet.

Also as well, most products are put together by rotating teams - not necessarily true that someone's making call to have longer lasting kit as opposed to shiny sells well. In fact it could be cynically argued that makers want replacement new bikes sold every few years rather than making stuff durable.

Its my first day here - I was just chipping in with how I think any engineer would grimace a bit about cutting a hole into thin wall tubes - just based on what they would have heard on loop in class for a few years.

Outcomes are important here; if the seat tube cracks, the likely outcome is you get annoyed and post a message on singletrack about it, you're not that likely to break up in mid air.

The only thing I've grimaced at is your pseudoscience and conspiracy theories

😀 I'm still saving to buy a Stealth post so not drilled it yet , lets not forget its an Orange Alpine so no light weight XC frame its heavier than the filing cabinet it leans against in my garage 🙂
I'm not worried about drilling the hole/slot it will be fine I ride like a nonce anyway. It has a standard Reverb at the moment.

If anyone has a Stealth 30.9mm Reverb/right hand for sale let me know 😀

If I already had an external Reverb, I possibly wouldn't be making holes for a stealth tbh! What's wrong with the old one?

(my bike had awful hose routing with some clash issues, and KS Levs are expensive, and the frame was worth ****-all, was my reasoning)

Mine a burly full Sus Freeride frame. The reason for swapping is I have the option and plus I could get a 150mm drop stealth v 125mm drop standard

As a mechanical engineering graduate, can I just chip in with the input that drilling holes in a frame is a really bad idea.

Well when you have a few years experience in the real world rather than in academia maybe you will realise that some times holes need to be drilled

And besides the stress scenario that an aeroplane fuselage (effectively a pressure vessel of sorts)is subjected to is quite different to that of drilling a hole in a seat tube. Get off your engineering high horse, you aren't the only engineer on STW, being a graduate doesn't mean naff all til you have done your time on the job

If scratches on tubes are so bad then a stealth dropper is a great idea!
No more uppy downy cable to scratch my bike!
Best get the drill out...

Current Reverb is 5 years old and a bit wobbly, works though goes up with a solid clunk 😀 is been great ridden every week summer and winter broke once in my first week, then I broke it hitting the deck at full tilt....

So is the general consensus that I'll be safe or I'll die?

Yeah, one or the other.

For anyone interested... team bikes were done the same as mine before they came from Specialized ready done.

[img] [/img]

consensus

You really expect that from STW?

You really expect that from STW?

Couldn't resist a bit of trolling...

As a mechanical engineering graduate, can I just chip in with the input that drilling holes in a frame is a really bad idea.

A small hole will have almost no material impact on the strength of the structure. In fact, as a "graduate" you should know that holes are often drilled deliberately either to increase the structure's I-value or as a crack-stopper.

I'd be wary on a carbon frame in case stuff starts to delaminate inside and out of sight, but steel? In particular, the RSJs that Orange use? If it's going to break, it'll be somewhere else on the frame.

Orange ... If it's going to break...

Surely you mean "it'll already have a cracked swing arm but worth checking the shock mounts too". 😉

While your wan*king over who's got what degree and talking about aeroplanes and stealth droppers I'll be undoing my QR seat clamp dropping my seat post manually and shredding some singletrack

"undoing my QR seat clamp dropping my seat post manually and shredding some single track"

ha - same strategy here! Dropper posts look great when they work, not so much having to ride for half a day with the saddle stubbornly stuck on low. I've seen a couple of riders get taken out with the seats firing back up at them too. I was reading an enthusiastic review about a fancy new bike with dropper post lever and another to lock the suspension and all I could think was, "How did that make it into the shops, given it's impossible to turn upside down to fix a trail mechanical without knackering extra sticky up thumb switches?"

(bah humbug etc)

was reading an enthusiastic review about a fancy new bike with dropper post lever and another to lock the suspension and all I could think was, "How did that make it into the shops, given it's impossible to turn upside down to fix a trail mechanical without knackering extra sticky up thumb switches?"

No no no! Don't start the debate on what way up a bike should be when fixing a mechanical. 😡
[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/turning-bike-upside-down-to-fix-punctures ]THE thread[/url]

I've seen a couple of riders get taken out with the seats firing back up at them too.

As a Mechanical Engineering Grad with a 1st, I drilled a carbon SB66, took to Alps, twice. Broke wheels. Not dead.

Stevet1 - I'm calling bullshit.

Even if it is true, how many dropper posts have been sold? hundreds of thousands maybe... hardly the norm is it?

Stevet1 - Member

I'm calling bullshit.

To be fair, if your seatpost goes up unexpectedly and you try and move as if it's not there, shit gets real... Had that once when I'd done some top quality DIY maintenance on a previously-reliable post.

hahah - when I said 'taken out' I didn't mean killed or something! I mean enough of a hit in the balls to stop them riding for a bit. Would be great it they worked as ejector seats tho : )

have you seen that Gravity Dropper singletrack review youtube? "if you do get it wrong, when you're hovering and it hits you - it's [i]quite[/i] painful" - I bet!

but sure, this is all about the Reverb type ones - using similar technology as height adjustable office chairs - which likewise have never ever failed annoyingly...

alsolofty - Member

have you seen that Gravity Dropper singletrack review youtube? "if you do get it wrong, when you're hovering and it hits you - it's quite painful" - I bet!

That's just 100% rider error though. (and if you sit on yourself on a standard saddle it's not much fun either)

you do know you can slow the return rate on a reverb right?

And even on fast, it doesn't do that. Gravity Dropper Turbo and maybe some of the cheapos are the only ones that can, but only if you're operating them completely wrong.

"as a crack-stopper"
this might be in the context of an extra hole at the bottom of a slotted seat-tube cut? which is to reduce the impact of a square edged stress riser that a simple slot would lead to

but..folk here on about maybe making a couple of holes, then sort of filing in-between - so it could easily lead to a stress riser edge - especially nosying at it closely at the sort of scale cracks check out to get started from

"drilled a carbon SB66, took to Alps, twice. Broke wheels. Not dead."
As another anecdote, Afan bike shop said they used to stock Yeti's but they had a run of carbon frames breaking so they don't stock that brand any more. It's quite likely the frame's overbuilt and reducing strength of a bit, like in most cases, is still safe enough...but a problem might be that it's done blind without checking out how it's holding together inside and there's no basic non-destructive testing in place to see how it all behaves with repeating straining under load

"Whyte have been drilling their frames"
They make lovely looking bikes...but in the rare cases that frames break, one of the key weak spot can be just behind the head-tube, pretty much exactly where they've drilled a couple of holes...I'm sure they've done the sums - but either it's weaker or heavier than it was before

anyway, I'm far from an expert - but I still reckon anyone with Material Science and Fracture Mechanics nouse should get a bit nervous about getting DIY busy with a drill on a bike frame

You still don't get it do you?

Yes it may be weaker but its still more than strong enough. The reduction of 0.0000000000001%* of the frame material makes little to no difference.

*I only have a science degree so I don't understand numbers**
**Some, all or non of this might be true

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

<walks off whistling>

i think this thread needs your input... drilling and glueing..

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/alloy-bb-shell-come-away-from-carbon-frame-what-adhesive

Stevet1 - <walks off whistling>

Clearly designed by the marketing dept. and will obviously fold in half instead of lasting 2 billion years