[Closed] Downhiller Coefficient of drag: about 0.6

errr.... hit rss feed to see it full size

Nice cap. TJ would be proud.

ha, I might turn it round, probably more aero.

Skinsuits are banned!

You going downhill it does not matter too much.

Yes it does. Especially on an open, windy course like fort William.

Didn't trek do loads of aero research last season?

All that blue area is low pressure, pulling you backwards

I think sticking your arse out more might help

Given the riding position on a downhill rig any adjustment made are not going to change your Cd by much. Look the lengths TT riders go to for speed, many of those solutions are not going to work on a downhill bike.

Rider position is the thing that needs to change and that is the one thing you cannot change enough. I cannot imagine going down hill on TT bars.

Recumbent - I've tried it, though not at Fort Bill 🙂

Small things like reducing the flapping clothing would help, but just not into lycra just less flapping clothing. Turbalence increases drag. Its not too much the front end with Aero, tis all about getting the air flow back together at the back and that be tricky with the rider moving all the time.

Lyra would make sense it a fashion thing why downhil riders don't use it. That's a poor reason to me. The front wheel causes more turbulane than the rear wheel. This has been shown on road bikes and the same would apply here. I suppose that's why bladed spokes have been used on downhill wheels, apparantly with sucess.

Rider position and frontal area is the thing that inreases drag, hanging everything else makes a very minor differene. Really it does.

Lyra would make sense

as MSP says: skins suits are banned by the governing body

I would stop watching dh the minute it started to become about aerodynamics. Leave that to boremula one. ..

...& road racing. Amen. Skinsuits would be faster but they look stupid and they are a stupid thing to wear up a mountain.

Having said that I think a giant inflatable shark fin on your back might help and would certainly look gnarr. Do you think it would be legal?

Project Falcon? It's pretty neat innit. Do you use it much?

Awesome innit! Yeah using it a lot for another project of mine.
Hypnotising 🙂

Will post a youtube in a min.

Embarrassing....

Lets have a downhill, gravity assisted sport where wins can be in hundreths of a second, but insist the competitors wear flappy baggy clothes so the kids will be cool with it.

Every other sport where wind resistance is a critical factor spends time and often a considerable amount of money in an attempt to reduce it, but fashion seems to be more important.

TBH while I think banning lycra in DH was a mistake it does still open up a whole new area for teams to consider; just how flappy and baggy do clothes need to be to still comply with the UCIs ruling?

We're not talking lycra skinsuits aero more semi-aero fitted PJs its got to be on someones radar anything that gets the pack half a second closer to Gwin would have value IMO...

Skinny jeans would be aero as well as cool, apparently. All the dirt jump kids were wearing fathering-challenging pants last time I rode past Woburn jump spot (..looking like an XC freak)

TBH while I think banning lycra in DH was a mistake it does still open up a whole new area for teams to consider; just how flappy and baggy do clothes need to be to still comply with the UCIs ruling?

We're not talking lycra skinsuits aero more semi-aero fitted PJs its got to be on someones radar anything that gets the pack half a second closer to Gwin would have value IMO...

Would stiffened clothing which looked like baggies but didn't flap be allowed?

I'm assuming that things specifically used to improve aero - like a back hump similar to that used by motorbike racers - would also be disallowed?

I'm assuming that things specifically used to improve aero - like a back hump similar to that used by motorbike racers - would also be disallowed?

Should be, on the basis that a DH race won on aero advantage would be hollow victory. DH racing is about having skills and the balls to use those skills well.

crikey - Member

Embarrassing....

Every other sport where wind resistance is a critical factor spends time and often a considerable amount of money in an attempt to reduce it, but fashion seems to be more important.

Except it isn't critical. At Val di Sole Gwin won by 7 seconds. How much of that time do you think Minnaar would have clawed back were he the only one wearing a skin suit? Anyone want to take a punt on that?

The sport is progressing in the right direction ie. more technically challenging tracks where rider skill is the determining factor, not who can tuck the best.

And anyway, embarrassing for who? It was mainly a rider driven decision and a popular one with the majority of the sports followers, also it doesn't isolate or create an abstraction between grass roots riding and elites. Furthermore, whether you like, or understand it or not, the UCI is charged with developing the sport. They have obviously concluded that skinsuits would not be conducive to growing the sport of DH, presumably because lycra clad looking freaks on bikes in the mountains would simply look like some odd bastard offspring of road racing, and not something which might appeal to it's potential target market/future generations.

There are myriad examples in cycling and other sports where potential performance gaining equipment is banned by governing bodies for little more than cosmetic reasons in order to preserve a certain image or prevent a sport from looking stupid.

[i]The sport is progressing in the right direction[/i]

By sacrificing speed for fashion.

[i]also it doesn't isolate or create an abstraction between grass roots riding and elites[/i]

Because the kids wear baggy clothes, the sport should hobble itself....

It's a minority branch of a minority branch of a minority sport, and in my opinion, not doing the basic stuff like using non baggy clothes makes it embarrassing.

I like DH, I watch a lot of it and have mates who ride it, it's exciting and skillful and much more of an endurance sport than people realise, but using baggy clothes in a downhill sport is silly...

crikey

By sacrificing speed for fashion.

How much speed are they sacrificing? Quantify it on a proper track. At Champery, Val di Sole etc, it's totally negligible. So they are sacrificing nothing.

crikey

Because the kids wear baggy clothes, the sport should hobble itself....

What kids wear baggy clothes these days? Do you know any? My point is people aren't going to get lycra'd up to and ride on a Sunday morning, the clothing is not functional outside of a race run on a wide open track so there is a disconnect there. You can't sell skin suits to casual riders for hanging around in the forest all day in the northern hemisphere, they can't relate to the sport, manufacturers and sponsors won't be as keen get involved, money goes out of the sport...the sport dies.

It's a minority branch of a minority branch of a minority sport, and in my opinion, not doing the basic stuff like using non baggy clothes makes it embarrassing.

Your opinion, in this instance is contrary to most professionals involved in the sport, and most casual fans, and the governing body so it's worth, approximately **** all in this instance.

Currently the sport, although it might be embarrassing to you, is thriving and is going through a resurgence doing exactly what you find embarrassing.

Imagine a person who has never seen DH before watching Danny Hart's run from Champery last year. Do you think their gut reaction would be confusion and repulsion based on the fact that they are witnessing a gravity assisted sport in which people do not wear skin suits, or, much more likely, amazement at the level of technical skill, bravery and technical riding. Definately the latter I think. Anyone in the former should probably just go back to ice skating.

As long as everyone does the same thing, i don't see what the issue is? yeah, it is possible that optimising the entire aero might see them down the hill say 5% faster, but as they are all in the same boat who cares about the "ultimate" pace. What matters on the day is how everyones pace compares to each other surely?

What a ridiculous argument. The sport has been chasing speed through the development of technology - suspension, tyres, geometry, frame materials etc. for years. If it's really all abut skill, then they should all compete on the same bike.

Lets make it rigid, that should be a good leveller.

It's also a very, very easy way to wind up the baggy wearing chaps.... 😆

As if!!

druidh - Member

What a ridiculous argument. The sport has been chasing speed through the development of technology - suspension, tyres, geometry, frame materials etc. for years. If it's really all abut skill, then they should all compete on the same bike.

And yet in the UCI guidlines for TT bikes dictates

Protective screens, aerodynamic shapes, fairings or any other device that is added or forms part of the struc- ture, and that is destined or has the effect of reducing wind resistance, are prohibited.
Article 1.3.024 establishes that aerodynamic assemblies and protuberances on the head tube are prohibited.

......So, in a sport where aerodynamics play a much more massive role, the governing body have seen fit to regulate aerodynamic equipment, and I don't hear anyone crying about the absurdities of it, at least not on this forum.

How much of that time do you think Minnaar would have clawed back were he the only one wearing a skin suit? Anyone want to take a punt on that?

8.5 seconds

Not the same as deliberately wearing clowns pyjamas to get down with the kids though, is it?

crikey - Member

Not the same as deliberately wearing clowns pyjamas to get down with the kids though, is it?

I think the problem that you, and other people like you have with it is not the absurdity of them not being as aerodynamic as possible, rather that you can't or don't want to associate yourself with something that might be perceived to be cool by "yoof types".

There are aerodynamic restrictions in other cycling disciplines to keep the aesthetic consistent, there are rules governing hydrodynamic clothing in swimming disciplines, there are rules governing the kit in soccer for gods sake.

I think you're taking my amusement a bit too seriously; I think that even you can see that the idea of a gravity related speed event where the competitors choose to utilise less efficient clothing is a bit silly.

Any attempt to 'grow' the sport means involving people who are currently outside the sport. If simple old me can see the essential contradiction in wearing baggy things then trying to go as fast as possible, perhaps they can too?

It also makes things more complicated, not less, because now the rules stipulate how baggy things can be!

If simple old me can see the essential contradiction in wearing baggy things then trying to go as fast as possible, perhaps they can too?

[i]Do you see an essential contradiction in trying to go as fast as possible and not being attached to rocket propulsion?[/i]

I see someone trying really hard to make a point and not quite managing.

Let me elucidate - Downhill racers going as fast as possible is not the only goal of the sport's governing body.

crikey

I think you're taking my amusement a bit too seriously; I think that even you can see that the idea of a gravity related speed event where the competitors choose to utilise less efficient clothing is a bit silly.

To be honest mate, not really. I don't perceive the aero advantage to be that big, I'd nearly call it negligible, and as I said, the sport is moving to arenas where it is less and less of a factor. Rightly so. The exact same thing could be argued for motocross. Hasn't hurt it.

Any attempt to 'grow' the sport means involving people who are currently outside the sport. If simple old me can see the essential contradiction in wearing baggy things then trying to go as fast as possible, perhaps they can too?

Isn't restricting the engine size of cars counter intuitive to F1, or WRC? Or having aero restrictions on the same? Of course it is. And yet they do okay. The governing bodies, like it or not are there to grow and develop a sport. That can also mean growing the image, that means consistency too. The riders had an informal agreement amongst most of them to avoid skin suits. The regulation removes the incongruity of having one or two riders running skins and the others not.

Just enjoy the racing.

[i]Downhill racers going as fast as possible is not the only goal of the sport's governing body.[/i]

Nor, it would appear, is it the goal of the riders either.

Will no one think of the heritage of the sport?

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Val Di Sole, not very long ago

[i]Just enjoy the racing.[/i]

I agree, and to be honest, seeing some of my mates in skinsuits would be enough to put me off DH for life. 😆

Sorry, ignore..

crikey, have you watched any of the recent World Cup races? their clothes are hardly parachutes billowing in the wind. or was the last thing you say Myles Rockwell and Jason McRoy riding Kamikaze in '93 where skinsuits probably would be a good idea.
and have you thought about who pays for and sponsors professional DHers? would Fox, Sombrio, Royal be happy to sponsor riders wearing skinsuits? would amateur riders and kids want to emulate their Pro heros and buy replica Troy Lee skinsuits?

[i]would amateur riders and kids want to emulate their Pro heros and buy replica Troy Lee skinsuits?[/i]

If you can get chubby Northern fellas into lycra bib shorts to ride off to the cafe on a sunday morning, I suspect that skin suits for wearing in woods around the UK would present no problem at all.

Is the tail wagging the dog here?

would amateur riders and kids want to emulate their Pro heros and buy replica Troy Lee skinsuits?

No, they would buy the baggier 'punter' version

yes, but without the tail the dog would be a dodo

I must admit that it is the only sport I know of where the trucker cap or snapback seems to be a vital part of the sporting wardrobe...

[img] [/img]

Val Di Sole, not very long ago

Yep, Hill destroying the rest of the field on a steep, fast technical course, everyone else wearing skin suits too, so no aero advantage to be had, just the fastest rider down the course wins. Ultimately Sam pushed too fast into the last corner and came second, but had he not, he would have decimated the field due to his technical ability, not his aerodynamic advantage. Steve Peat looked in slow motion in comparison to him on that day.

Was the racing at Val di Sole lesser due to the riders not wearing skin suits? nope, it was incredible stuff. Fair enough it didn't have the same drama but that's simply because it was a world cup, not a world champs.

[i]Yep, perfect example, hill destroying the field on a technical course, everyone else wearing skin suits too, so no aero advantage to be had, just the fastest rider down the course wins. Ultimately hill pushed too fast into the last corner and came second, but had he not, he would have decimated the field due to his technical ability, not his aerodynamic advantage. Steve Peat looked in slow motion in comparison to him on that day.[/i]

The logical extension of this would be for them all to have UCI sanctioned parkas on to slow them down and therefore add to the spectacle?

Think of the profits for Fox, Sombrio, Primark etc...

The logical extension of this would be for them all to have UCI sanctioned parkas on to slow them down and therefore add to the spectacle?

Or conversely let them race naked, maybe wearing nothing but shoes and time trial helmets....or just let them have free rain, hey, stick an engine on the bike why not? or let them use some sort of motorized zorb?

[i]Or conversely let them race naked[/i]

I'm thinking of my mates, and i think you win.

Not the same as deliberately wearing clowns pyjamas to get down with the kids though, is it?

I think if you asked the racers they'd want to be up with the MX boys, not down with the kids...

The only unfairness I guess is it's now difficult for the race official to say if something is insufficently baggy... A bit vague.

I think the official test is "minimum 3 inches of bagginess"

If you can get chubby Northern fellas into lycra bib shorts...

Just stop right there.

How frustrating....it doesn't help much 🙁

[IMG] [/IMG]

Just have to make it bigger