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Not sure if this is OT or not, it is it please feel free to move it mods.
After the fun and games of recent weeks (Rodgers, JTL) and years (Armstrong, Contador, etc.) with doping in cycling it occurred to me that, bar athletics, we virtually never hear about doping in other sports. Does this mean that there doping doesn’t happen in top level competition elsewhere? Or that it does and we just don’t hear about it? Are we to believe that top level triathlon (a fiercely competitive endurance sport) is free of EPO? That international rugby (have you seen how big a lot of the guys are now?) is free of steroids? Or that football (the richest sport in the world with potential to earn millions on the back of 1 great year) is clean as a whistle?
My instinct is that doping is as rife, if not more so, in all of these along with a whole host of other sports. I suspect that we don’t hear about it because they either don’t catch then due to lack of testing or they don’t tell us when they are caught.
Am I alone in this belief or is this shared?
Well theres no doubt that Operation Puerto involved Tennis and Football.....including some mega names....but I think the issue is probably driven by money.....look how Armstrong was able to weild influence with the power of his cash; he could manipulate people, organisations (even the press) because he could afford to...now think about that x10 or x100 and you are looking at tennis, Golf, Football.....
If you read about other sports, like rugby, you'd see the doping stories.
tennis, Golf, Football.....
Those, rugby and athletics spring to mind. Less tests = less people being caught. Hard to imagine that there's so few footballers caught given how many people play worldwide and how much money is involved. Too many vested interests....
Major problem in combat sports. I reckon a large amount of UFC fighters are on testosterone boosting. Some claim legitimate use due to supposed low test levels, others using under the radar.
Also a lot of drug cheats in boxing. Several high profile fighters got caught this year. Steroids, test, diuretics etc.
Given the aim of the sports is to inflict as much damage as possible on your opponent, drug cheating in combat sports is disgusting.
i'm going to say 3 thrings, which are in no way connected.
tennis.
rafa.
fuentes.
i'm sure it's all completely innocent.
ahwiles, I too will say three unrelated things:
Football
Spanish World Cup winning squad
Fuentes
Lots of sports don't test, so drug use isn't cheating. That's the most sensible approach.
i'm going to say 3 thrings, which are in no way connected.tennis.
rafa.
fuentes.
i'm sure it's all completely innocent.
Go on then, evidence? As is, your comment is basically libel.
Of course other sports have doping problems that are hidden. I don't think all sports have fundamental or endemic doping problems though.
Cycling has a structure that means the culture could easily take hold
- massive benefits of doping both physically and financially (not all sports pay well), particularly considering many of the people involved come from relatively poor backgrounds.
- undetectable doping methods
- riders brought into teams which become their families (since they're away from home)
- tacit acceptance of doping in many countries where the sport is most popular
I reckon that there are several other sports where you could tick all those boxes.
ahwiles, I too will say three unrelated things:Football
Spanish World Cup winning squad
Fuentes
Fuentes was apparently linked to Real Madrid: the 2006 squad included Beckham... perhaps the English football team is involved, too? 😯
Mogrim, that would not suprise me in the slightest.
Mogrim, that would not suprise me in the slightest.
dopey != doped 🙂
Where there's money and prestige there is doping of some kind. UK-based football players have been mentioned in the same reports as Spanish dope doctors. US baseball + football, tennis, sprinters, the lot I expect.
I reckon that there are several other sports where you could tick all those boxes.
[b]Any[/b] sport where performance can be improved through drugs will have someone taking them. If you look hard enough, you will probably find a performance enhancing drug suitable for every sport.
There's a big difference between some people taking them and doping being endemic. There are sports where it's not endemic. There are almost certainly no sports that are 100% clean.
There's a big difference between some people taking them and doping being endemic. There are sports where it's not endemic. There are almost certainly no sports that are 100% clean.
What do you mean by "endemic"? And given the apparent lack of testing for a lot of sports, what is your claim based on?
There does seem to be a bit of asymmetry to the reporting of doping cases in the media - there didn't seem to be much of a fuss made about a big chunk of the Jamaican athletics team being caught doping.
Baseball and American football were (are?) rife with drugs for a long time. Basically a blind eye was turned to it for years.
You've got to look at the amount of testing that is done in other sports. Members of man United were complaining about being overtested a few years ago, I believe they were tested about 4 times in a season.
If you think about it cycling and athletics are probably ahead of the game compared to a lot of mainstream sports when it comes to testing. Unfortunately that means that they are the sports most associated with drug cheats.
The argument always put forward to defend the 'lack' of drugs in such sports as tennis and football is that it's a game where skill is more important and being fitter isn't as big an advantage as in cycling/athletics.
But if you're stronger, faster with better endurance you've got a massive advantage over clean players at the end of 90 minutes of football.
Tom KP
Roger Federer from
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/24858647
"Last year, when I was on the run - Dubai, Rotterdam, Indian Wells, when I won the three - and the year before that, I didn't get tested in one of those three events that I won".
😯
"For me, that's not OK. You just show up and test a guy that's winning everything. That's sometimes what I struggle with."
Cycling has high levels of testing and self-flagellates due to its history, other sports (with far more money) sweep it under the carpet.
There does seem to be a bit of asymmetry to the reporting of doping cases in the media - there didn't seem to be much of a fuss made about a big chunk of the Jamaican athletics team being caught doping.
not only that, the reports were almost apologetic and they very strongly carried the athlete's line (accidental, someone elses fault).
Summary of 100m's level of taint here (comparable to TdeF winners?)
and for mogrim
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/mar/22/blood-doping-trial-fuentes-real-madrid
What do you mean by "endemic"?
Part of the culture, the norm, accepted.
And given the apparent lack of testing for a lot of sports, what is your claim based on?
My own experience as it goes but then I can't think of any other way of proving it for certain. I competed at a high enough level in a sport to take the view that it wasn't happening to any significant degree within it despite GB being world class at it. I saw people progress to that level in a believable and realistic way.
and for mogrimhttp://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/mar/22/blood-doping-trial-fuentes-real-madrid
It was reported here, too - what I find amazing is that any sporting organisation would risk going anywhere near Fuentes. But then no one seems to care about drug use in football, I suppose.
My own experience as it goes but then I can't think of any other way of proving it for certain. I competed at a high enough level in a sport to take the view that it wasn't happening to any significant degree within it despite GB being world class at it. I saw people progress to that level in a believable and realistic way.
Out of interest - what sport?
Rowing
Come to think of it though I could be a doper and telling porky pies
I probably would have actually made the team though in that case 😉
Long article but some interesting info http://www.4dfoot.com/2013/02/09/doping-in-football-fifty-years-of-evidence/
RowingCome to think of it though I could be a doper and telling porky pies
I probably would have actually made the team though in that case
Ah! So the team members were doping then? 🙂
🙂 it'd be nice to claim that was why they were better than me. Problem was that I competed against many of them from teens and as I said, progression was perfectly believable.
And I never even heard a whisper or rumour about doping. That definitely wouldn't have been the case for a comparable cyclist.
And that's where a lot of the criteria I listed are relevant. rowing tends to be a pretty middle class sport with little financial reward - as such it's not usually seen as a way to escape from a life of poverty/boring jobs/etc.
I'd say tennis is the one with the most potential for massive scandal - genuine global sport, gentlemanly image with clear rules for conduct, one of the most evolved in terms of gender equality, laughable testing regime etc etc.
'Racquet technology' seems to have come a long way in recent years, and the public will not be impressed when the real reasons for performance enhancement come to light.
The other sports with drug problems are either not in the public eye so much - e.g. rugby league - at the end of the day no one's arsed about 26 northern steroid monkeys bashing into one another; or there's a sort of tacit agreement with the paying public to facilitate drug use. Usain bolt, for example, is not cheating the system all on his own. The system (media, fans, governing bodies) wants to see the 100m olympic final run in 9.6 seconds, not 10.1 seconds. It's a complicated situation.
In things like the NFL it's not even complicated IMO - systemic drug use that everyone (players, teams, unions, fans) accepts as producing a sport product that they all want to see.
Isn't it powerlifting that has two supervising organisations in the UK; one rigorously drug tests, the other doesn't. There's about a 1/3 increase in records achieved under the latter.
Tennis is going to look very bad indeed when doping eventually comes to light. The reason so many doping stories relate to cycling is because the authorities are actively looking.
There was a story last week about now redundant Spurs manager AVB aiming to get two players 'match fit' by spinning their blood, essentially removing a bag of blood a while before a game and then letting them have it back just before the game.
It was said that Mourhinio (?) is also an advocate of it and it's common practise throughout Spain & Portugal especially.
But as mentioned the financial clout of football means they have the balls to talk about it openly in the media.
Not to mention the 'Vitamin' injections that England players have all talked about having in the past to replenish stores when playing in hot countries like Italy in the 90's
to the OP: if you have several hours to waste there is a thread in the cyclingnews clinic forum about this, you might find it of interest:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?s=e0920894ace1029491ce09366f44341e&t=11396
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-drugs-in-serie-a---italy-sinking-deeper-into-scandal-1178042.html ]http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-drugs-in-serie-a---italy-sinking-deeper-into-scandal-1178042.html[/url]
now consider Chelsea of the same era?
[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Mutu [/url]
Now tell me drugs are not an issue in Football.
The other sports with drug problems are either not in the public eye so much - e.g. rugby league - at the end of the day no one's arsed about 26 northern steroid monkeys bashing into one another;
I know someone who plays in this environment and he tells me they get random testing even during their training.
Athletes tread a thin line, there are acceptable levels and unacceptable levels for many many substances. Therefore competitors will push the boundaries to be on the cusp of what's acceptable to be on a level playing field.
There was a story last week about now redundant Spurs manager AVB aiming to get two players 'match fit' by spinning their blood, essentially removing a bag of blood a while before a game and then letting them have it back just before the game.
You made that sound like blood doping which it isn't.
In fact you just got it completely wrong tbf.
You made that sound like blood doping which it isn't.
How isn't it?
I know someone who plays in this environment and he tells me they get random testing even during their training.
I should bloody hope so! Failing in competition tests is a mark of stupidity; there has to be out of competition testing too.
Athletics seems to have plenty of problems.
Another sport that I will mention for no particular reason:
Formula 1 / motor racing
How isn't it?
That particular process is about white blood cells, the blood taken is span in a centrifuge to extract white blood cells, they are then administered to the patient in a specific area of the body where there is damage that needs to be repaired. Blood doping is about increasing an athletes ability to transport oxygen about the body. Totally different.
That particular process is about white blood cells, the blood taken is span in a centrifuge to extract white blood cells, they are then administered to the patient in a specific area of the body where there is damage that needs to be repaired.
Ah! I see! It's either pseudoscientific bollocks (with no obvious physiological basis and significant risks), or it's a cover for blood doping, then?
Lets just call it blood manipulation then shall we?
Football is the next 'big one'.
An obvious advantage to be gained and probably the worst administrators for sweeping stuff under the carpet that might affect the 'image' (i.e. money-making potential) of the game will have contributed.
The lid is already starting to be lifted with the betting and match fixing - next stop doping crisis...........
It would take some thermonuclear revelations to knock the premiership gravy train off the road. Football is v resilient - it's the Berlusconi of sports. Most instances of corruption or crooked behaviour just get lost in the noise - it would take something quite profound to shake it up IMO.dannyh - MemberFootball is the next 'big one'.
An obvious advantage to be gained and probably the worst administrators for sweeping stuff under the carpet that might affect the 'image' (i.e. money-making potential) of the game will have contributed.
The lid is already starting to be lifted with the betting and match fixing - next stop doping crisis..
Ah! I see! It's either pseudoscientific bollocks (with no obvious physiological basis and significant risks), or it's a cover for blood doping, then?
Soooo lemme get this straight, you're suggesting prem clubs are using this as an elaborate cover to enable their players to dope? Do you think footballers would benefit from blood doping so much that it would warrant all that palaver? I don't.
steve_b77 - Member
There was a story last week about now redundant Spurs manager AVB aiming to get two players 'match fit' by spinning their blood, essentially removing a bag of blood a while before a game and then letting them have it back just before the game.
Bit different, used as an injury recovery technique, it's harvesting plasma from the blood and imjecting it back in to speed recovery. Not doping in the sense of "more blood cells" to give an EPO effect.
Not for a moment suggesting there's no doping in football, just that they talk openly about spinning because it's legal - suspect there's lots of drug used, both recreational and performance enhancing, that get kept quiet. Was loud whispers about certain dominant Italian teams, some interesting growth hormone use (Messi) and all sorts of links to that Fuentes chap. Plenty of money in football.
A mate of mine used to compete at a good level in air gun shooting. It seems that there are drugs for that too. He had tales of people using beta blockers to reduce adrenaline production. It seems at least [url= http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=olympics-shooter-doping-propranolol ]one person has been stripped of Olympic medals[/url]
The same report suggests the stuff he used has an application in golf too.
There are pro sports that are clean?
EPO was first used by cross country skiers and biathletes I believe. I wonder if they have the level of testing that cycling does?
Soooo lemme get this straight, you're suggesting prem clubs are using this as an elaborate cover to enable their players to dope? Do you think footballers would benefit from blood doping so much that it would warrant all that palaver? I don't.
Well, one might suppose that blood spinning would require a lot of the same equipment you'd need to set up a blood doping programme. Given how lax drug testing is in football, you might as well just give them all EPO though.
Was loud whispers about certain dominant Italian teams, some interesting growth hormone use (Messi) and all sorts of links to that Fuentes chap.
This. I am fairly sure I saw a game on TV where Messi's use of HGH (which, being fair, may have a TUE) was being discussed by the commentating team completely matter-of-factly without any suggestion it might be a bit dubious. Can't imagine that in cycling.
I think there is an interesting question about ethical definitions in "doping".
1) From a high minded ethical point of view, you could argue that ingesting anything other than "normal" food and any medical treatment intended to reduce recovery time is "cheating".
2) Probably the "normal persons" opinion on boundaries would allow the use of protein supplements etc and normal medical treatments for pain relief and recovery from medium-long term injuries. But nothing more.
3) You can then move up to the definition used by the doping authorities, that having any banned treatment in your system is doping - whether it is detected or whether you are caught or not - is cheating.
4) Finally you get to the definition used by elite athletes in many/most sports. If you get caught you are a cheat. If you don't get caught you are a clean athlete. This is what leads to very wealthy elite athletes using Dr Ferrari / Puerta etc. They will happily pay experts to allow them to get the very maximum benefits from any and all supplements and drugs - so long as they won't test positive!!
This is why many elite athletes trully believe they are "innocent" when they get caught. They operate under definition 4 above, because they assume that all of their competitors are.
ratherbeintobago - MemberI am fairly sure I saw a game on TV where Messi's use of HGH (which, being fair, may have a TUE) was being discussed by the commentating team completely matter-of-factly without any suggestion it might be a bit dubious. Can't imagine that in cycling.
In his case, it was whn he was very youmg, 11 or 12 or so, and he was unusually small for his age, Barca put him on a programme of it. But still.
Tennis, where the sports governing body claimed that PED isn't an issue as it wouldn't provide any advantage in a game predominantly of skill. Comical really. And how many other sports do you find where a fair few of the highest ranked players are desperately calling for more testing?
Exactly.
Success at the top level of Tennis is all down to recovery from a 3-5hr match one day for another 3-5 hour match 24-48hrs later. And repeat for 40-45 weeks of the year!
Of course drugs will help.
Success at the top level of Tennis is all down to recovery from a 3-5hr match one day for another 3-5 hour match 24-48hrs later.
That man Fuentes [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/9834122/Operation-Puerto-doctor-Eufemiano-Fuentes-treated-tennis-players-athletes-footballers-and-a-boxer.html ]gets everywhere.[/url]
May I ask clubber what the inside line was regarding one particular very successful rower of the last 25 or so years, who I am led to believe, is a diabetic and able to use insulin unhindered?
Doping is just as much a problem in football as it is in tennis, athletics, swimming and cycling. It’s part of daily life. I’ve worked with footballers. They use Testosterone, EPO, Ephedrine and Stimulants.
~ Stefan Matschiner
As for me personally, I have a special method to remain at top level: the injection of my own blood. Several times a month, my friend Manfred Köhnlechner draws blood from my arm, and re-injects it in my butt. This causes an artificial inflammation As a result, the amount of red and white blood cells goes up.
~ Franz Beckenbauer
I can remember well, a season or five ago, just before the away game against Real Madrid, we received a white pill, and also something in a capsule. We called it Hagelslag [chocolate sprinkles] I have no idea what it was. You felt very strong and never were out of oxygen. The bad thing was that you lost all saliva in your mouth.
~ Barry Hulshoff
But the fact is, everyone knows about it, because in the Bundesliga it is common gossip. Especially before start of the season it’s a topic with new players. How much they swallowed at their former club, and what it preferred at their new club. Doping is just as much the norm in football as in other sports.
~ Paul Breitner
Early in my career, when I was 16 or 17, I received two to three injections at monthly intervals. They gave me more strength to train. I gained mass without compromising speed and agility.
~ Zico
When the 1998 World Cup started, some of the players started taking injections from Glenn’s favourite medic, a Frenchman called Dr Rougier. After some of the lads said they’d felt a real burst of energy, I decided to seize any help on offer. So many of the players decided to go for it before that Argentina match that there was a queue to see the doctor.
~ Gary Neville
etc, etc...
slackalice - Member
May I ask clubber what the inside line was regarding one particular very successful rower of the last 25 or so years, who I am led to believe, is a diabetic and able to use insulin unhindered?
Simple answer is nothing. Redgrave 's biggest asset wasn't his ability to pull (push!) hard though undoubtedly be could do that pretty well. It was his unrelenting attitude and drive. Once the GB team stopped being just him and Pinsent and the Searles I guess, he was rarely at the top of the erg results but in the boat... And that's a very large part of why he was in the crew at Sydney. He certainly wasn't the most individually physically capable by that point.
Not quite sure the point you're asking about diabetes. Suggesting that it could be a result of previous doping or that it allowed him to dope legally? Can't really say either way but I'm not sure that either really stack up with what I know.
The question re. Redgrave is that insulin is used in power sports for recovery.
It works like this: get back from a training session and consume a shed load of food... inject insulin and marvel as the hormone shuttles all those nutrients into the body's cells.... particularly carbohydrates into the muscles to replenish depleted glycogen stores.
I assume he needs a certificate for therapeutic use?.... but once he has that what's to stop him using/abusing his insulin as a training aid?
With exogenous insulin you can absorb nutrients at a rate that would be impossible with a natural/normal pancreas producing normal amounts of insulin.
I can't really comment beyond what I've said but I can say that his results weren't very good in the last couple of years so if he was trying to use insulin to cheat, it wasn't working very well. There was some discontent about him being in the top crew at the time.
Fair shout, thanks clubber. I wasn't trying to insinuate anything as I hold no opinion on the matter, it was however a comment someone made to me the other week that got me wondering how diabetic's deal with testing, allowable limits etc etc.
As said the more you look into other sports, there's always some mention of doping.
As an aside, a recent tweet about the U.S Postal team salaries
https://mobile.twitter.com/thebikeshow/status/413786159538790400/photo/1?screen_name=thebikeshow