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It's like TJ's back 😀
I had to help some people down off the hills in Wales as their map had blown away (and it was foggy). Incidentally, I was using a GPS (though I had a paper map too)
[b]Don't rely on your paper toys...[/b]
The most surreal part of that is why he took a map of Scotland with him 🙂
Am I being dense here... Why do you need a map to retrace your steps back down?
Would be nice to ask the guy why he had a map of Scotland !Nearly as bad was the bloke I saw on a remote hill with a 1.250 000 motoring map which as we all know show contours and cliff edges in great detail.!
Since buying a gps in 2006 I've still not broken it or run out of batteries at an inopportune time.
By contrast I've broken half a dozen compasses and helped out a family whose compass was going crazy near great gable.
Compasses are technology too.
The best thing is map and gps .Even when I use my Garmin I take a map for the bigger picture (and because glare on the screen makes it hard to see !)
The problem isn't technology. The problem is idiots.
So what you're saying is, buy 2 electronic devices?
Yesterday I took in a couple of munros in Glen Lyon, and it was the first time I'd ever taken just a GPS alone (although I did have the relevant section of OS map saved to my phone just in case). Both hills were easy to navigate and the conditions were perfect, in either case if I did manage to get lost I just have to head down to a loch and trudge along the shore. I didn't like being without a paper map though, in future I'll go back to taking both.
was there a freak snowstorm in north wales yesterday?
The problem isn't technology. The problem is idiots.
Well said. GPS is great but you need a back-up, even if that back-up is just a healthy does of initiative and common sense.
I've broken half a dozen compasses
What on earth are you doing to them, in 20 years of being out inthe hills I have never broken a compass.
A friend of mine (very experienced ML) used to carry a 'Hills of The Lake District' tea towel around with him. When asked for directions in the hills he would produce the tea towel and use it to describe to people where they were! (usually just between the tea stain and the marmalade stain)
Nothing spectacular, capsules randomly dropped out of a couple, one got a stuck needle which wouldn't free and one 'de-magnetised' mid walk. I've only smashed 1 and that was through a hefty impact with the ground for me and the compass.
But I'm fairly cack-handed at the best of times though, if it's got moving parts I'll break it eventually.
The thing is these days you can just go on the web print off maps and it cost bugger all if you know what to do 😉
Laminate them throw them in the back pack jobs a goodun.
We do this with all our new rides now as it saves pulling out and unfolding a bloody OS map every time we need to check our location. 🙂
I would never rely just on electronics 😯
On a normal day in the hills I'd have a paper map an compass, gps (with 2spare AA batteries) because it's easier to follow the trail on than keep getting out the paper map or wearing it round my neck in its little laminated sleeve. But then I also have a smart phone which has maps, compass and gps coordinates on it as a third reserve option.
I've occasionally used the map to confirm something on the gps but so far haven't needed to resort to using the phone.
There was an interesting program on radio 4 the other day highlighting just how easy it is to block and disrupt gps. It appears such units are popular with drivers whose employers fit gps tracking units to their vehicles so they know where they are at all times. I think I might have to get one for the bike. 🙂
One group was taking part in a Welsh 3,000 ft peaks challenge and was again depending on GPS when their battery ran out and they were still on the mountain.
I did the 3000s a couple of years ago. As we were walking with zero visibility in the dark, in the cloud, it was great having the GPS to backup our navigation using a map and compass 🙂
That said, I prefer to navigate using GPS only on the bike, damn sight easier than stopping at every junction to check directions. (but I do carry a paper map with me if I'm in an area I don't know)
gps (with 2spare AA batteries) because it's easier to follow the trail on than keep getting out the paper map
The problem with that is the GPS knows where you are, but you don't. Good practice when on a boat is to fill the log book in every time you change direction, or hourly, or some other interval. Even with the ubiquity of GPS and electronics it's still a manual job to write down position, heading, speed, wind/weather etc in the book. Now that'd be OTT on a bike ride to fill in a log every corner, but the act of getting the map out to find where you are would at least save time in the event of a problem or emergency as you'd know where you were at the last junction and can quickly guess where you are now. It's not that the GPS will be wrong, it's that despite your best intentions sticking to the dotted line on the screen, if it goes blank you won't have a clue where you are!
the bloke I saw on a remote hill with a 1.250 000 motoring map
he's a mate of mine! - had some interesting days out based on vague look at his old AA road map
in general think a fair number of people can't actually read a map so carrying one is pointless for them
I was once reliably informed the most common injury in the hills was a round-the-neck map case flicked in the eye by the wind.
I was once reliably informed the most common injury in the hills was a round-the-neck map case flicked in the eye by the wind.classic !!!
If you're up a hill and your GPS breaks, and you're worried you might get lost, just head down the hill? Might also be an idea to not go up anything you'd not be happy about coming back down too right enough.
Northwind - MemberAm I being dense here... Why do you need a map to retrace your steps back down?
Maybe he ran out of breadcrumbs??
Northwind - have you ever been in the mountains in poor visibility? (IME, visibility is generally quite poor when it's DARK). If you don't know the terrain (and even if you do) it's not always as straightforward as retracing your steps 🙄
You should always have map and compass (and know how to use them).
GPS is a luxury.
GPS is an option. Same as map and compass. You can argue the toss about which is most reliable but as per examples in this thread, neither is perfect.
If you're anywhere where genuine safety risk exist then you're pretty stupid to rely on only one item of safety critical equipment with no backup.
Jamie - MemberSo what you're saying is, buy 2 electronic devices?
We usually have 3 - 1x Garmin 800, 2x iPhone with Memory Maps and OS maps loaded. I also have a Garmin Fenix now, so technically I could have 4. Better hope the GPS satellites dont fail though 😆
in general think a fair number of people can't actually read a map so carrying one is pointless for them
Which begs the question, why are they out in the sticks in the first place?
It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who I meet in the middle of nowhere, who have no idea where they are and aren't carrying a map or other means of navigation.
Absolute folly to be out and about when you can't navigate yourself around.
maybe there should be compulsory insurance to cover the cost of mountain rescue
can you imagine the questions some questions to ensure the policy could be appropriately loaded? here's an effort
Have you ever been in area that has no mobile phone coverage other than just outside the toilets in a shopping mall?
Do you consider it life threatening if it is raining when you get out of the car at a filling station?
Have you ever felt a panic attack coming on because the lights in the pub car park weren't working?
Do you actually know what happens when the sun goes down?
Do you know what happens if you turn down the thermostat at home or the climate control in your car?
If you walk to point A from point B will it always take you some time to get back from B to A?
Do marathon runners carry packets of fags for energy when competing?
How many times did you walk round the rugby club playing field and did all the money go to charity?
bullandbladder - MemberNorthwind - have you ever been in the mountains in poor visibility? (IME, visibility is generally quite poor when it's DARK).
Yup. Which is why I ask the question- if he got up, he should have been able to get down, if he's halfway competent. And if he's not, he shouldn't have been up there at night with or without a map.
I'm in north Wales now and it doesn't feel that cold. There seems to be a lot of snow in the hills looking at that photo. It's lucky he didnt get frostbite.
just how easy it is to block and disrupt gps
From time to time the MOD run exercises where they block GPS operation in a specific area for testing and training purposes. These are announced in NOTAMS (the notices that go out to pilots to warn them about potential problems), because of the obvious danger of going badly wrong if you rely solely on GPS (something you're trained not to do, but pilots get this wrong too sometimes). I don't know whether they tell anyone else, e.g. walkers/climbers/650b-ers. Most of the ones I've seen have been in parts of Wales or Scotland in sparsely populated areas, so just the sort of place someone might be off in the wilds and relying on GPS. 😯
If you're up a hill and your GPS breaks, and you're worried you might get lost, just head down the hill?
Not necessarily that good an idea if you're on Glyder Fach at night (as in the OP) and decide to head down the hill in a Northerly direction!
^ my point exactly ^
This story reminds me of the family who walked up Snowdon in December with a 3 year old in minus crazy numbers in the worst storm ever. They were going to catch the train down 🙄
Next thing mountain rescue, helicpoters. Should have saved the kid and left them there. Darwin and all that.
Idiots.
Do you carry a spare map and compass bullandbladder?
[quote=Northwind ]Am I being dense here... Why do you need a map to retrace your steps back down?
Finding your way to a summit is fairly simple. No matter what angle you approach the hill from, it always leads to the top. Going down is a lot different. 😆
What on earth are you doing to them, in 20 years of being out int he hills I have never broken a compass.
Same here, still use the Silva (with bearing sight!) my wife bought me twenty+ years ago.
compass you say?
[url= https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/compass-free/id284735786?mt=8 ]compass app[/url]
sorted
Speaking of apps, I was delighted (well, pleasantly surprised) to find that my fancy new phone has a barometer! Alimeter app installed, and it's been accurate so far - as measured against the altitude at the displayed position in the OS Atlas App, obvs.
I've found the compass not to be too hot though, but SunDroid, showing the position in the sky of the sun (or moon, or other celestial body) at your current time & location is a very nice check.
The issues with GPS are well known in the shipping world which is why they rely on paper and sextants almost exclusively.
I think the wider issue is the erosion of the old skills. We'll soon have a generation that's grown up with GPS and will see paper maps as old fashioned and something they can't be bothered with. That's fine as long as GPS works but it only takes it to be broken or dropped in a river once and, if the conditions are wrong, you're stuffed.
I'm moving to a stage where maps will be my backup to GPS, rather than the other way around it's been for me up to now. I take GPS and maps no matter how simple the walk, I make it a rule so there's no question in my mind. I also always take a first aid kit but to date I've never needed it, same principle.
I've never broken a compass - well not in a way which makes one unusable, have lost all the fluid out of one, but it is still possible to tell which way North is. Have lost a few though, and more importantly I was also in a group once when the paper map blew away! The thing is, if you actually know what you're doing then you should still be fine in that situation as you'll be aware of where you are and what routes there are without the map. It's the lack of those skills which are the issue.
Personally a GPS of any variety isn't going to replace a paper map any time soon for me - I CBA using a GPS when I don't generally have an issue with knowing where I am at all times when using a map. A map which is always going to give me a better awareness of the overall situation than any GPS ever will (unless you want to carry around an A3 size display).
I think we are conflating two issues here. Map reading is still map reading if it's on an electronic display. Folk who can't recognize a cliff before they walk over it are stuffed regardless of the medium.
jonba - Member
The issues with GPS are well known in the shipping world which is why they rely on paper and sextants almost exclusively.
is this what you meant?
[url] http://news.techworld.com/security/3434207/gps-jamming-menace-solved-with-new-ship-based-system/?intcmp=nws-af-rtd-home [/url]
Nothing to do with electronics.
My dad was a member of the Kinder mountain rescue and we never saw him on christmas day or new years day because he would always be rescuing some dickheads who went up the mountain in high heels or decided walking up a mountain would be a good idea at night time.
Really, I think I saw my dad three or four times on christmas day in all the time I can remember. The problem is stupid people being allowed into places they shouldn't be, like 20 feet away from the telly. He'd get abuse too. They'd find someone wandering around in circles in their evening wear, maybe one of them would have a broken ankle so they'd have to carry them down. Then on the way down they would get abuse from the people because they weren't being carried smoothly enough or needed to get somewhere quickly.
Dumb people. Stay away from places you don't understand or aren't prepared for.