[Closed] Does turbo training tire you out?

Normally, yes. The 20 minute turbo session that GCN posted recently, when I commit to doing it properly, gives me the wobbly legs, along with making me want to vomit. I see this as a good thing.

Yes, to the point I almost fall off the bike & struggle walking back to the house from the garage!
I find it often a better workout than doing intervals out on the road, as it's far easier to control the conditions & resistance on a turbo than on the road.

Not as much as riding off-road, but still a good beasting.

For reference I have two main sessions I do on the turbo, one threshold & one interval.
Anything more than that & it's getting close to becoming a ride replacement session-I'd rather go out & get cold/wet/miserable than do much more than an hour on the turbo!

Absolutely, intervals that start with things like "slow right down and go into the hardest gear your can turn, now GO!!" are prime for giving me logistical problems when trying to get back into the house.

I find the turbo gets me pretty wobbly more easily than a training ride but only a race will get me to the unable to stand still for lactic acid pain yet unable to stand because legs don't work level of tiredness.

You started a new job or is married life catching up?

Normally, yes. The 20 minute turbo session that GCN posted recently, when I commit to doing it properly, gives me the wobbly legs, along with making me want to vomit. I see this as a good thing

Jolly good, I'll have to look it up! 20 minutes sounds like a sensible before/after work session too!

You started a new job or is married life catching up?

The former 🙁

Massive lack of motivation too frankly, which risks becoming terminal if I don't keep a bit of a check on my dwindling fitness!

I remember this in the past, albeit not quite so acutely, perhaps just symptomatic of not being all that fit. I did feel a bit squiffy walking back to the house, but by the time I'd had a shower I felt absolutely fine, which was weird, as like I say I felt I'd given it everything whilst doing it!

Yes, however two things for me:

It's easier to get up to max HR/total meltdown on the road when I've either got a wheel to hang onto or some other motivation. On the turbo it feels much harder.

The more I've used the turbo, the better I've got at destroying myself.

Sounds like your CV isn't on par with your muscular strength. You're running out of steam before you muscles have had a proper beating.

Once you get CV fitter, you'll be able to punish your legs more

Probably fair. Would one expect to lose CV fitness more quickly?

Turbo training is hard for 2 main reasons (and possibly a third).

1) Your mind isn't distracted by the technicalities of riding a bike on the road, so you concentrate solely on the pain.

2) You get hot. Thermal stress affects your performance.

3) You're a wuss.

The sufferfest ' half is easy ' week get you i am sure. I had a go last week admittedly first session after about 3 weeks is being ill and it nearly dropped me. I had to get off the bike half way through and just stand using the wall as support. It's evil. 15 second sprints with 15 second rest for 10 mins

I found the GCN vids really good, helps keep me motivated rather than just music or following an app.
I've been really pushing hard on the turbo for the last 4 weeks, nearly thrown up a few times and had the wobbly walk back to the house as well.

I do find it harder to get to max HR on a turbo.

Why not leave the heart rate monitor in the house and do your session by feel instead?

I never use heart rates on the turbo, but I have an instinctive sense of effort as I spent all of my teen years training 6 days a week as a middle distance runner. I visualise the track in front of me when on the turbo and know, for exmaple, if it's a 30 second interval that I need to put in the effort equivalent to doing 200m intervals on the track.

Turbo training is hard for 2 main reasons (and possibly a third).
1) Your mind isn't distracted by the technicalities of riding a bike on the road, so you concentrate solely on the pain.
2) You get hot. Thermal stress affects your performance.
3) You're a wuss.

But it's not those really, I'll accept a degree of 2, as I said.

It appears to stress my CV system far more than my muscles. I feel wobbly and rather sick whilst doing it. But within seconds (literally) feel fine, there's no lasting "ooo, that was a tough session" feeling. The obvious explanation for that is that at the mo I'm just really unfit!

Why not leave the heart rate monitor in the house and do your session by feel instead?

Because that's not the issue? Did plenty of "flat out" intervals, hitting c99% of max HR. I'm not struggling to increase my HR, nor am I riding slavishly to a HR and finding its not tiring me out. It was plenty of 'vision going a bit' type efforts, that didn't tire my legs at all.

I feel it stresses my CV system far far more than my muscular system

I find this also, but I generally put it down to most training programmes tend to make me want to operate at a higher RPM than I find natural, which stresses my CV system more than muscular.

I have to be quite specific in what I do on the turbo these days, as I hate it, but then I also hate road riding - so I tend to stick to HIIT style workouts, rather than longer, boring, fixed effort session for climbs etc.

Something like Downward Spiral does tend to hurt me, but it probably is one that benefits me most IME.

I've no problem destroying myself on it whatsoever....!

Certainly can do!

What sort of outdoor sessions give you the feeling you're looking for? What is it that makes them hard for you?

What sort of outdoor sessions give you the feeling you're looking for?

Just about anything I'd say. Reckon I'd feel more tired after an hours Z2/Z3 ride!

How do things like cadence and variability of power compare? Most outdoor rides there's much more variability in power than on the turbo, you're pretty much always accelerating and decelerating, changing cadence, gear changes, etc. All that can be a lot more taxing on the legs than sitting at a constant power and cadence.

If you use a turbo properly your not at a constant power or cadence it will be variable, nothing like outdoor but it will still be changing unless you do a dull long tempo ride.

How do things like cadence and variability of power compare?

Dunno about power, not got a power meter anymore, but cadence was down slightly on my normal average @84rpm for the session. On the road I'll usually be more 88-92rpm.

If you use a turbo properly your not at a constant power or cadence it will be variable, nothing like outdoor but it will still be changing unless you do a dull long tempo ride.

Indeed, and I certainly wasn't at a constant power or cadence. That's the interval bit mentioned in the OP 😉 Not really sure what your point is?

Edit: [url= https://www.strava.com/activities/467231664 ]here[/url] is the Strava activity - cadence was generally higher in the first half, second half included a few 'big gear' high force type efforts at lower cadence, but an intense enough session.

If you use a turbo properly your not at a constant power or cadence it will be variable, nothing like outdoor but it will still be changing unless you do a dull long tempo ride.

Not really sure what you're point is either! Obviously changes when you do intervals, but it's not constantly changing in the same way it does when you're riding along a road or trail. Point being steady state on the turbo is not much like steady state on the road (as you say, nothing like an outdoor ride.) Didn't think I needed to be that explicit 🙂

Sort of relevant, I was doing some intervals on the road last night aiming for around threshold pace. On the turbo it'd be a flat line. On the road it's all over the place, easily +/- 50 watts varying around the target with dips, crests, gear changes, etc. even though average is about the same. If I've been doing a lot of turbo work then that sort of effort outdoors is very taxing!

What is going on with the speed on that strava trace?

What is going on with the speed on that strava trace?

Battery in the speed sensor was (virtually) flat! I don't have speed on the screen on my 'turbo' profile, so didn't notice!

I do now know that the Edge 1000 gives you a warning when the battery is running low though.

Do miss having a power meter, just feels like a better metric for some of this stuff.

I find that after a break that either my cardiovascular or muscular-skeletal fitness will have dropped more than the other (after my run of broken bones I got used to starting again from scratch).

So some times turbo sessions feel like really hard work and my legs are killing me, other times I get 10 minutes in and feel faint because although my legs are hitting the power numbers they're supposed to, my lungs/heart just aren't keeping up.

Solution seems to be to go out for a ride in the real world and do a solid 8 week block of "just riding a bike" before getting back into any sort of training. And if the weather was miserable, go to a spinning class. After that doing intervals on Sufferfest et.al. seemed more realistic (i.e. they still hurt, walking was difficult afterwards, but didn't leave me feeling faint or struggling to hit power numbers).

I tend to find that I really struggle to do a 'proper' interval type session out on the road so do most of those type of sessions indoors.

I tend to get quite focused on numbers so if for example, I wanted to do 280w for 5mins on the road, I'd have to work mega hard to hit the NP because of the stochastic nature of the ride.

Totally my opinion (and I know nothing really), but I'd say an outdoor session where you're trying to 'hit targets' will be totally different for that exact reason.

I think I'm waffling and not making any sense at all but I know what I mean

I know what you mean Gaz, don't worry!

I've generally done interval sessions on the turbo too, with the obvious exception of hill reps. I think it's just been a while since I did any intervals on the turbo, and my fitness is in a different place to last time!

Hate them! I find it much easier to stress the CV system than the muscular. but I am a spinner not a masher, so ticking along at 90 rpm is low cadence for me.

Used mine for rehab after the accident for a weekly session. I found I hadn't lost much CV fitness in four months and five broken ribs and sternum.

Out on the road, i like to push along in a 75" fixed wheel. this couples speed, cadence and to an extent power (adjusting for air resistance, obviously). Whilst I can hold Zone 4 on the turbo, mentally I know I can stop any time, whereas on the road I definitely feel like I am less likely to just call it a day!

Racing is from where I take my stats for the above reason! What I need is a turbo session that will simulate 100 minutes of road racing (preferably in 30 minutes), and then give me a hard sprint session at the end. Not found one yet.

mrblooby I misunderstood your first comment hence my crap, I get what you mean now and yes I agree.

I wouldn't use how wrecked you feel as the measure of how effective your training is. Check your progress against some sort of repeatable measure that is relevant to your objectives (eg FTP test, riding up your local hill, etc). If your turbo training helps you improve, great. If not, think about changing what you are doing, or how you do it.

Can people post what interval sessions they are doing? Including Warm up/down and rest between intervals.

It would be a huge help, I need sone ideas.

jmalock, GCN have some good workouts [url=

I like this 20 minute session myself, if you give it beans it's a proper session:

If your turbo training helps you improve, great.

If it doesn't you are doing something wrong!

Do miss having a power meter, just feels like a better metric for some of this stuff.

It is, but you don't need it, I used to do turbo sessions simply with a watch and perceived effort and made massive gains. (I was using some old Tacx programmes that probably no longer exist, that were based around a specific gear and cadence.)

What I need is a turbo session that will simulate 100 minutes of road racing

The old pyramid interval is pretty good for this IME. Start doing about 30 mins then build to around 50-60 mins.

Can people post what interval sessions they are doing? Including Warm up/down and rest between intervals.

I'm totally unscientific, just try to mimic some shortish climbs with some recovery flat pedalling in between - so

10 minutes WU (my garage is blimmin cold. Five minutes before I even take my jacket off)
7 mins @ about 75% max perceived effort followed by 5 mins at 50%ish x4
5 minutes WD easy spinning.

Part of the reason for posting it up is for folk to tell me how it won't benefit me compared with shorter, harder intervals and rests.

But I can certainly feel it in the legs afterwards. Not quite at the 'feel like chucking up' point though.

It is, but you don't need it, I used to do turbo sessions simply with a watch and perceived effort and made massive gains. (I was using some old Tacx programmes that probably no longer exist, that were based around a specific gear and cadence.)

Of course. I was at my fittest before I had a power meter, but I like numbers and data, and it motivates me. That's probably a bigger benefit than being able to be more scientific.

Part of the reason for posting it up is for folk to tell me how it won't benefit me compared with shorter, harder intervals and rests.

Sounds quite reasonable. Depends on what you are trying to achieve though.

Most of mine at the moment are z2 with sets of long intervals, 8, 20, 30 or 40 minutes, between about 90% and 110% of 60MP.

It is, but you don't need it, I used to do turbo sessions simply with a watch and perceived effort and made massive gains. (I was using some old Tacx programmes that probably no longer exist, that were based around a specific gear and cadence.)

Sounds a lot like the "virtual power" that people are using now.

Njee, no actual idea of how true it is generally but I've heard we lose cardio fitness much faster than muscular strength. The 2 are linked in real world riding but I'm inclined to believe it from my own experience, say early season SS mtb - hard to keep going up some hills as I max out but my legs feel more able than my heart and lungs. Later in the year it can be the other way round, yet my pure strength ability to turn the gear on the steep stuff is similar, hr redline aside.
Could be a crock or confused perception but I feel that I 'train' more effectively now I have a better idea of what works my muscles and what works cardio. Turbo sessions can do both but hill reps work my legs more, the turbo gets my HR at the right level for fixed periods more effectively.

my dwindling fitness

'bout time for a ride, then...

8)

😀

@tired

Just done the gcn 20 min. Nearly pooed myself on effort 7. Will be doing the 30 min next time, handy little tool that. Cheers.

Did a zwift workout tonight warm up then 30sec blasts at x2 calculated ftp, offs were 0.5ftp think its a set of 12.

Was feeling pretty wobbily towards the end.

I assume the numbers are wrong for ftp but chasing the target is pretty brutal.

The 20 minute turbo session that GCN posted recently, when I commit to doing it properly, gives me the wobbly legs, along with making me want to vomit.

What session is this? Thinking of doing some lunchtime training.

adsh, see page one, I posted it there. They released another 20 minute one yesterday too though I've not tried it yet.

oops sorry...@ lunge...cheers.

Sounds quite reasonable. Depends on what you are trying to achieve though.

My main aim is to go into next spring without losing too much conditioning, and gaining too much weight. I'm realistic enough not to expect gains over winter.

But is it worth sprinkling the occasional shorter, meaner workout into my hour-long grinds?

Did that 20 minute one this morning. Good session that. Felt pretty rough whilst doing it, been a while since I've done those efforts, used to do 6 minutes of 15/15seconds which I reckon may be tougher!

Legs felt more tired than Sunday, considering its 5 minutes of effort that's a good thing I guess!

Martinhutch, unless you are very time constrained.... no.

Mix it up with some more intense intervals, but if you have the time use it, even if just spinning at z2. Maybe stretch out the 7 minute effort to 15 or 20 mins, then z2 a bit, then do a set of shorter, more intense intervals (30 sec, a minute, whatever you fancy really) then spin out whatever time you have left at z2.

Robert Forstemann making toast

But it's not those really, I'll accept a degree of 2, as I said.

It appears to stress my CV system far more than my muscles. I feel wobbly and rather sick whilst doing it. But within seconds (literally) feel fine, there's no lasting "ooo, that was a tough session" feeling. The obvious explanation for that is that at the mo I'm just really unfit!

But how much of 2? That is the question.

Without a power meter, it's hard to quantify. But if you are putting out (outdoor) threshold power but are at max HR, then you're not going to feel the legs after a 3x5 session.

A lot of programmes seem to try to emulate real world riding eg a base session with repeated or occasional bursts to simulate hills etc. In facts it seems to be a major selling point of a lot of online content.

I'm very sceptical of this. There are various aspects of your physiology you're trying to improve by training. The best training response is going to be the best stress of that system

So personally I think it's better to do a Z2 session as a stand alone as you want to stimulate fat burning, type 1 muscle fibre growth and lactic acid clearance etc. If you add in Z3 intervals or higher throughout you will get fitter quicker but get less well developed fat burning, type 1 muscle growth and lactic acid clearance (which type 1s are best at). You could end up with a situation where the intervals don't add up to much but take you away from the pathway you should be targeting.

adsh, I'd agree with that. Though I guess you have to look at the individual, how much time they have available, and what they want to achieve. If you're short on time (or can't stomach 2 or 3 hours on the turbo) then a steady z2 ride likely is not that effective.

It's different types of useage really. Long rides I do on the road, the idea of 2 or 3 hours on a turbo is a horrible thought. However, what it is useful for is "I've got 30 mins, I'm going to hurt myself"

Takes me about 30 mins to get suitably warmed up! 🙂

I tell myself that developing the mental toughness and coping mechanisms to sit on the turbo for 2hours is good for racing.

But how much of 2? That is the question

In a 5 degree garage, wearing shorts and short sleeves, with a huge fan...? Not much I'll wager.

n a 5 degree garage, wearing shorts and short sleeves, with a huge fan

Simultaneously in a puddle of sweat and freezing cold.

I'm into Zwift at the moment and the difficulty is giving getting rest, it's quite addictive like a video game but a two hour workout plus a couple of laps for fun doesn't leave much in the tank, you want to go back but the legs are done!

Yeah I'm gonna give Zwift a go. All this talking about training, and doing a couple of turbo sessions has me motivated - I've ordered a new power meter to make me stick at it, quantifiable gains has gotta be a good thing!

Take a look at the trainer list for Zwift, you can use a classic trainer from one from the big manufacturers and they'll use algrithms to work out the power and build that into your speed on the course.
Add a power meter and use that to measure the the watts, their calculations are good in my experince but if you use your own meter it'll be consistant with road rides.
Lastly you can use a smart trainer and get the full experience with resistance increasing on the hills etc but these are £250-£1200. You'll also need a few ANT+ bits and bobs.

Once set up you can do free rides around the courses, hitting segments and getting into races, group rides or structured workouts and ftp testing.
It is going a bit bonkers with populatity at the mo and you get the feeling their struggling to keep up with development but overall not a bad way to spend Jan and Feb.

The sufferfest ' half is easy ' week get you i am sure.

I concur, this thing is brutal. And the athletics at the end is amazing, too.

As for Zwift, I've got into it a bit. It's as 'fun' as I think a turbo session could ever be and is still improving with more to come.

Just got back from our clubs turbo session, 20 people in a small village hall gets very hot and sweaty but it's much easier to do an hour than on your own.

A local personal trainer runs it with each week structured to work of different things but there is a lot of focus around threshold efforts as it's a mainly TT orientated club. I don't TT and find the long threshold sessions the toughest, I find threshold on a turbo so much harder to hold than when on the road. However the sessions with sprint intervals are the one that make nearly pass out.

Take a look at the trainer list for Zwift, you can use a classic trainer from one from the big manufacturers and they'll use algrithms to work out the power and build that into your speed on the course.
Add a power meter and use that to measure the the watts, their calculations are good in my experince but if you use your own meter it'll be consistant with road rides.

I hated the 'virtual power' on TrainerRoad, but I think that's because I came from owning a power meter, and TR was so much lower that it was a bit annoying! My trainer isn't supported by Zwift anyway, I considered a Neo, but I'll get more use from a power meter, and they're cheaper.

I'm not entirely sure about the training aspect of Zwift, intrigued to see. The Tacx I-magic virtual world thing was actually quite good, I managed to do 2 hour turbo sessions using that back in the day.

The workouts are available to view here..[url= http://www.stronglikeox.bike/zwift-beta-workouts/ ]LINK[/url] I expect there similar to other available.

Effort is based on your ftp tests, mines not that high but it still had me doing 1h50m of constant 175 watts on day one, of the winter plan, today looks like another long day.

Starting this without looking through all the sessions may have been a mistake.

I hated the 'virtual power' on TrainerRoad, but I think that's because I came from owning a power meter, and TR was so much lower that it was a bit annoying! My trainer isn't supported by Zwift anyway, I considered a Neo, but I'll get more use from a power meter, and they're cheaper.

Virtual power is a pretty poor experience once you've used a proper PM.

Tempted to give Zwift a go though can't quite figure out how it works. I get that if you have a smart trainer it can vary the resistance as you go up and down hills but how does that work if you just have a PM? Just giving you a power target isn't very hill like! Or does it just work out your speed based on power and the virtual slope you're riding up? I should probably just give it a go.

Or does it just work out your speed based on power and the virtual slope you're riding up? I should probably just give it a go.

This..and your weight is part of the equation.

So without a smart trainer the resistance doesn't increase and you don't have drop gears or stand etc but your speed still reflects the watts/weight/incline.

I started on Zwift on a dumb trainer. I still found myself changing down and attacking at the hills. It's nonsense but I think the visual environment ****s with your head a bit.

I'm not going to call it 'realistic', it's not, but it does give a sense of place and involvement in the same way a real ride does (& oddly that I didn't get from the real life films in Veloreality).

Mind you I was always a bit of a wuss in Doom too, way 'back in the day'. A door to a dark room would open, there's be a lot of demon muttering, I'd feel a chill and I'd have to remind myself it was just a few silly pixels on a screen.

So without a smart trainer the resistance doesn't increase and you don't have drop gears or stand etc but your speed still reflects the watts/weight/incline

So you could say you weigh 20kg and 'win' everything?! Interesting...

So you could say you weigh 20kg and 'win' everything?! Interesting...

Yeah, it's a recognised phenomenon they call "weight doping".

Some people take Zwift, in particular the racing, very earnestly.