Does suspension kinematics matter as much on an ebike

I'd say the smoother more constant power delivery on an ebike is also a big factor in how you can ride tech uphills.
Also the ability to use motor over run on steps and the rear brake to control wheel spin is a factor.

I’d say the smoother more constant power delivery on an ebike is also a big factor in how you can ride tech uphills.

Is that to avoid wheelspin and excessive bob?

Yep.
Also you don't need full seat extension to get enough power which leaves you better able to hop the rear end up and over stuff.

I think its irrelevant - you will have to adjust your technique though as I find it easy to wheel spin on techy uphills.

IMO no. The power outweighs any small variables in different designs.

I would prefer suspension optimised for downs, rather than ups, on my ebike.

I would prefer suspension optimised for downs, rather than ups, on my ebike.

Hence my question. I like DW bikes for this reason - they balance the climbing and descending characteristics quiet well.

I'm wondering if I need to be so selective when the time comes.

particularly as I enjoy technical climbs.

Have you not demoed an ebike at this point? Tech climbs are a whole different game with a motor, in what I think is a very, very fun way.

Have you not demoed an ebike at this point?

Nope. I've deliberately stayed away, but our first member in the group has just got one. I expect us all to fall like a deck of cards in the next 18 months!

You’d better try one. Either you will laugh all the way to the top or e-bikes are not for you and your horse hair shirt 😀

My Pole Evolink was the best climbing bike I've ever ridden - beautiful suspension that just kept on tracking. Also had a v high BB so pedalling over lumpy tech stuff was no issue.

Not as important on the E as per results above, however my Giant Reign E+ has nothing like as good climbing suspension action, and it is definitely noticeable. This is a shame, makes me feel I should have got a Voima.

But, it rides everywhere else quite nicely and downhill it is less 'tiring' than the Pole.

Okay. The good info is starting to come through.

So having a motor doesn't fully compensate for suspension design limitations?

Kinda. Clearly you can hurl yourself up shit that was just in no way possible before. But, I am often left wondering just how much better it could be if I had great suspension as well as the power on the eeb. Does that make sense?

Edit: and, as always, great climbing does not always = great downhill. I do just about prefer the way my Reign rides everywhere else, so you pays your money...

100%. Good suspension works with you.

I’ve got no experience on this subject, but wondering if high pivot or horst link are less efficient general climbing than some other rupees of suspension on average - say SC’s VPP or Ivis’ DW link - but perhaps on the uphill with a motor that isn’t an issue and you’re better off with more plushness for grip to make the most of the power?

Quite so, and the entire reason for this question!

Grip is definitely at a premium and I think geometry is as important as kinematics for that on an ebike. Bicycle suspension has to deal with a rider bouncing up and down on the pedals plus the subsequent varying power, on an ebike this is still present but diminished. Maybe my view is skewed by only riding Shimano motors which reward a high cadence and therefore more of a sit and spin style up climbs.

The anti-squat behaviour is completely different depending on how much assistance you have. Any power delivered by the motor generates as much anti-squat as the same power coming from the rider - however the power from the motor doesn’t cause bobbing (ie squat) because it’s constant power.

And it’s even more extreme a difference than you’d think because pedal bob is caused by two different things - the first one (which anti-squat can perfectly balance out with the right kinematics) is the acceleration/deceleration as your cranks rotate because humans don’t produce constant torque around the BB, in fact it’s more like constant force at the pedal perpendicular to the ground, so max torque when cranks are level and min torque when cranks are vertical.

And the second is the up/down movements of the rider’s centre of mass - that’s why bikes that pedal well have extra anti-squat (above 100%) plus some low speed compression damping to calm this down.

I’ve been riding my Levo for just over five years now, general singletrack, some XC, some steep stuff, some uplift days, lots of commuting on and off-road. With the motor on turbo it pedals really well, even when I’m standing and stomping like on my singlespeed hardtail. As climbs get more technical I have to back off the power to get enough control, although I’m not sure how much of that is the suspension moving better to find more grip and how much is just applying less power to avoid wheelspin.

I ride it a lot with the power off and it doesn’t pedal as well uphill as my Spitfire did but but it’s good enough that I was happy to sell the Spitfire.

In an ideal world I’d like to try a higher pivot design with an idler that moves to increase the anti-squat as you reduce the assistance and vice versa.

I think the main thing I’ve noticed about full-sus e-bikes is that they fix a lot of the problems with normal full-sus bikes - better pedalling behaviour, better suspension behaviour and more stability without needing ultra long slack geometry.

As the frame.is heavier is there more benefits/drawbacks for spring/unsprung mass and all that technobabble? (I don't quite understand it hence my term)

I'd have thought with more weight on the frame, the suspension will work differently and that will either aid or hinder.

However, I've no real idea about this, just throwing terms out there in the hope someone else knows and can clarify.

My guess is that it really matters, but only on some. Although I don’t own one, and have no desire to at the moment, I do ride them on occasion, even a £10k specialised really struggles on climbs I do on my bike; the balance between grip, power and my inputs is really hard for me to get right on climbs that are at the two wheels on the ground limit. 🙂 or maybe it’s more to do with the fact my bike is smaller than the e-bikes I ride, although they do feel ace on the majority of climbs! 

There is also another climb near me that e-bikes try to get up and I go past them as they spin out on steep rooty sections, although I can only presume that’s user error and not suspension issues as it isn’t that steep a hill… 

Dickbarton has it - the greater sprung to unsprung weight ratio of an ebike effectively makes suspension work better than the equivalent on a non ebike.

I understand the ratio of sprung/unsprung mass changes in a beneficial way with an ebike due to its increased mass, but thats not really what I'm curious about.

If there's a motor involved, does the choice of the suspension design matter less, or at all?

There are multiple threads across many years discussing the merits of different suspension designs for traditional bikes, but you don't see the same level of discussion about it on an ebike.

Is it like the 29er thing where the extra wheel size is reckoned to approximate 20mm extra travel?

“If there’s a motor involved, does the choice of the suspension design matter less, or at all?”

I thought I’d written a good explanation of why the motor changes things so much - let me know if not and I’ll try to explain it better because I’ve literally never seen a single professional reviewer cover this stuff.

As always, the choice of suspension design doesn’t really matter, it’s the specifics of the pivots and links and the resulting kinematics which can be understood best through those handy graphs of anti-squat etc.

You have.

I didn't want the query lost with a metaphorical shrug and 'its unsprung mass innit'.

Also I'm keen to hear views from as many ebike riders as possible. Comprehensive as you are, you're just one data point. 😉

Phew!

I should add that on the first pedal stroke you feel the bike trying to squat, because for that first moment you’ve got the rider’s power pulse and the motor surge happening at the same time (just like how a car or motorbike squats under acceleration). But after a few turns of the pedals the suspension has rebounded back to normal and as the motor pulls constantly you then get the reduced bob ebike benefits.

I haven’t tried loads of e-bikes but I’ve ridden this one a lot - and I think for technical climbs it’s more about power delivery and geometry (and your choice of rear tyre) than it is about suspension behaviour. And there’s definitely a big element of the rider adapting to how the motor control system behaves.

Downhill, yes, it’s sprung vs unsprung mass - that difference vs a normal bike is HUGE.