You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I’ve got a full fat cannondale monster truck monterra. It’s lovely, but 27+ kg all up. It’s heavy.
I’ve now got a new exciting condition that means I do need more than a tiny bit of assistance to get up hills and I don’t fancy hauling around a heavy bastid of an eBike, when I’m back out next year.
I’m completely out of touch with eBike development, or current bikes, does such a bike exist ? One That doesn’t weigh 22kg plus for a decent power output AND a decent battery and not an extreme level of travel.
I’ve previously had a go on a Specialized SL some time ago, the version 1 and it felt way down on power compared to the FF Dale I have, but it did ride better as it’s carrying a lot less weight.
really I’m only this for trail riding, not gnarly stuff.
I’ve heard of the dji eBike, but didn’t think that was one the SL super light breed.
Try the Levo SL2. I ride with a lot of people on full fat Levo’s and it doesn’t seem to put me at much disadvantage in the real world.
the basic issue is batteries are heavy as are motors. Both are gradually getting lighter but a full power motor and a large battery are going to be around 10kg
Amflow/Forbidden/Unno/Commencal with Avinox motor
Whyte e lyte stag works with Bosch gen5 motor
Latest S Works Levo
Giant Trance E comes with a full power motor and a 400w battery for the same weight as a light ebike. Comes with a 200w range extender but I can get 40km out of the main battery
The new Trek Fuel + EX ticks all the boxes. Decent enough power unless you are a 'Moar Laps! Moar Powerrrrrr!!' kind of rider. Reasonable battery size, quiet motor. Sensible design.
sort of my question as well.
dji 600 pro I think might be nearest full power, 19.2kg apparently.
suggest a test ride of any ‘sl’ motor before purchase (levo sl, trek exe , Bosch sx, etc etc) as they are (Ime) a different experience and for me (tried levo sl, have an exe hpr50) ultimately I personally want a bit more power (not ridden sx but it doesn’t get good low cadence marks ) , Orbea rise might be ok (but not for me due to shimano motor experiences)
awaiting more reviews of maxon air s motor, and Thomus literider emax, allegedly 15kg full power but Swiss company and no uk prescience, ho hum
Moterra SL can get under 20kg (for the posh one - not much more for the others) and has "full" power
Not sure how much my Orbea Rise weighs but it's a lot lighter than the full power Kona Remote Ctrl supertanker it replaced and it's no slouch climbing neither
Moterra SL can get under 20kg (for the posh one - not much more for the others) and has "full" power
What size battery?
The new Trek Fuel+ is looking interesting. The motor has been upped to 60nm with 580wh battery.
I was just starting to accept needing a full fat bike but as a lighter rider this might actually work for me.
Thats pretty good then. I think these bikes advertised as light but only have small batteries are a bit of a con. IMO 600wh is about the minimum for decent range.
My Levo SL2 has a 320w battery. I can rinse that in a 90mins, 25km, 600m vert full power blast, or I’ve eeked it out to 50km. I’m never going to ride more than that, I’ve got shit to do…
Im sure you could rinse it quicker than that. I did a 375 battery in 8 miles 🙂
Max power on the SL2 motor is about 350W. At a guess that means a draw of ~450W at the battery.
320 WH battery will be done at full power in 42 mins.
so yeah. If I went full power up a hill non stop for 42 minutes I could empty it quicker.
in the real world. 90 mins of trails flat out empties the battery…
I went from full fat Moterra to Moterra SL 1. And it's, yep, lighter, and it's yep, powerful enough. The Bosch in the Moterra was unnecessarily powerful for me, the SL1 is awesome. Took it to a DH park with an uplift and it was brill.
Did the Staveley/kentmere 3 passes last week on my levo sl. 42km and 1500m, 35% battery left back at the car park. Did it mostly on eco, popped it into trail when needed. Did the climb from kentmere up to HP plantation entirely on trail. A lot of walk mode on the ascent to nan bield. But where needed, humping on to shoulders was possible, hard work though!
I’ve got a full fat cannondale monster truck monterra. It’s lovely, but 27+ kg all up. It’s heavy.
One That doesn’t weigh 22kg plus for a decent power output AND a decent battery and not an extreme level of travel.
My Kenevo comes in at around 28kg with 180mm Fox 38's, range extender, big tyres etc. It doesn't really bother me when I'm riding it.
My Gen 3 S-Works Levo is 23kg and you notice a huge difference though - especially over gates etc. And I've had 43 miles/3500ft out of it not being totally conservative with power on a 700wh battery
So maybe you don't need to go sub 20kg - just get something a fair bit lighter than what you have and it will feel worlds different
SC Heckler SL has Fazua 60Nm motor, max 450w output and a 430Wh battery. Genuine real world sub 20kg with a sensible build (mine's a chunky build in XXL at 20.6kg inc mudguard, pedals etc). 160/150 f/r so perhaps a bit much travel for simple trail use, although I use mine as an all rounder.
The Static Nivo looks like it will be an interesting bike
I've got an XXL Heckler SL as well. I bought it as an ebike I could lift over fences or hike a bike in a push with the promise of a range extender due to be released for big days out. It is a good bike, and I love it, but I have to turn the assistance down quite a bit to get over 35 miles and 1000m of climbing. Now that Fazua have announced that they aren't going to release a range extender anymore, I'm a bit disappointed. Still a great bike, but big days are harder than they could be. I'd be thinking about a base level Amflow or other Avinox bike given that news if I was buying new now. Worthwhile test riding a Fazua powered bike, a TP60 powered bike, and an Avinox powered bike in my weak opinion.
I went from full fat Moterra to Moterra SL 1. And it's, yep, lighter, and it's yep, powerful enough. The Bosch in the Moterra was unnecessarily powerful for me, the SL1 is awesome. Took it to a DH park with an uplift and it was brill.
I’d agree with this, my Monterra 1 FF on full power is nuts, great fun but everything uphill is wonderfully effortless. It is a lot of fun, apart from when I was riding with others not on FF e-bikes.
My Kenevo comes in at around 28kg with 180mm Fox 38's, range extender, big tyres etc. It doesn't really bother me when I'm riding it.
My Gen 3 S-Works Levo is 23kg and you notice a huge difference though - especially over gates etc. And I've had 43 miles/3500ft out of it not being totally conservative with power on a 700wh battery
So maybe you don't need to go sub 20kg - just get something a fair bit lighter than what you have and it will feel worlds different
the weight of the Dale never bothered me, every now and again it would be extra effort to make it turn quickly downwards. It’s going to be slightly harder for me now with heavier bikes for the next couple of years, which is a total pita.
I could also get quite decent range out of the Monterra if I avoided using the turbo mode.
Thats pretty good then. I think these bikes advertised as light but only have small batteries are a bit of a con. IMO 600wh is about the minimum for decent range.
Not at all. My Orbea Rise has a 360kw battery and I can get 60km and 1200m of ascent from it. It weighs less than 20kg so I can still lift it over gates. Hardly a con!
With the range extender I'm up to over 100km, plenty for big mountain days which is mostly what the bike gets used for.
Been a couple of replies around this new motor and battery system from Switzerland.
https://www.maxonbikedrive.com/en/air-s
Sounds amazing and pretty much what I’m after. I’m not seeing why the builds using this system are so light compared to others. And unless my google fu is off, none of the major manufacturers have embraced it yet.
edit: it has been years since I last looked at e-bikes, holy cow just how many different bike manufactures an e-bike range, and how many different motor systems etc are there !
The new Trek Fuel + EX ticks all the boxes. Decent enough power unless you are a 'Moar Laps! Moar Powerrrrrr!!' kind of rider. Reasonable battery size, quiet motor. Sensible design.
super interested in the fuel +, have the reliability issues of the TQ's motor been sorted?
also not interested in any Shimano powered e-bikes, unless the motors can now be repaired.
I've worked with TQ equipped bikes a lot and I've never seen a motor die. I've seen a few get warrantied for some weird quirks, like a fluttering sensation when pedaling really lightly, and goes away when pedaling normally. Any issue has been warrantied with no problem.
No system is 100% issue free. If people saw the amount of error codes a Bosch system throws up when you plug it into their software, you'd probably never risk riding your bike again! Wouldn't stop me buying one though. My Levo SL keeps throwing codes re. calibration issues but still works fine, albiet the motor sounds like a broken washing machine. Too noisy but keeps working, so not getting it replaced, as I've seen new ones fail 10 meters from the shop front door due to sprag clutch failure.
Specialized / Brose motors have had loads of belt issues.
Fazua have loads of problems.
Yes, Shimano.....
I couldn't own a DJI equipped bike due to the almost cult like following they have. No-one needs that amount of power and the company don't seem bothered that the power war will potentially result in more areas getting closes to EMTBs. Bosch didn't need to go to 100Nm either. I've ridden a 65lb 85Nm Bosch equipped bike up reasonable gradients putting in hardly any effort and hitting the speed limit so no idea why people need more....
I'd be thinking about a base level Amflow or other Avinox bike given that news if I was buying new now.
Absolutely - I'd be the same if I was looking to buy now. Not that my finances would've stretched to even a base Amflow at the time I bought the Heckler.
The news about the range extender is a kick in the balls. To be fair I've not done many rides where I'd have used it but equally I do preserve my battery on longer rides, e.g. using the mid setting rather than full power more often. Just back from a local 37km/1300m ride (Dumyat and local woods as far over as Park of Keir) with 14% battery left. But a Golfie ride will now be restricted rather than rinsing a range extender AND a built-in battery.
Shame as the bike itself rides very well and I like the feel of the motor compared to others I've tried (albeit briefly). Couple of Amflows among the group I ride with and they leave me for dead...
I've worked with TQ equipped bikes a lot and I've never seen a motor die. I've seen a few get warrantied for some weird quirks, like a fluttering sensation when pedaling really lightly, and goes away when pedaling normally. Any issue has been warrantied with no problem.
No system is 100% issue free.
Specialized / Brose motors have had loads of belt issues.
Fazua have loads of problems.
Yes, Shimano.....
I couldn't own a DJI equipped bike due to the almost cult like following they have. No-one needs that amount of power and the company don't seem bothered that the power war will potentially result in more areas getting closes to EMTBs. Bosch didn't need to go to 100Nm either. I've ridden a 65lb 85Nm Bosch equipped bike up reasonable gradients putting in hardly any effort and hitting the speed limit so no idea why people need more....
that's good to hear about the TQ motor system.
Specialized have the best connectivity esp to garmin & probably warranty, but expensive and the SL is probably the lowest power option.
The DJI amflow is interesting, £6k for the 800w battery carbon one.
I’ll try and get a demo ride next year, no idea what support is like
Don't get me wrong, my Heckler is still amazing for local rides. Anything up to 30 miles, 1200m of climbing is fine. Turning the assistance down (I have a "tour" mode that really reduces the assist) can add about 10 miles, but that is almost the reverse of what I really want (don't really want just riding to be harder when I want to go further). Just disappointed that the range extender isn't happening. I'm booked in for the bigger internal battery though. Don't want to try an Avinox bike as it would likely just get me het up and wanting to buy a bike that I don't need.
The 50Nm Mahle motor in the LSL2 and KSL2 is a massive boost over the old motor and the KSL rides soooo well. Probably a bit more than you need though. I used a friend's LSL2 in Czech last year and it handled all my hamfooted attempts to overwhelm it on even the orange tech line at Bikepark Klinovets.
I'm extremely interested in the Static NivoE / Maxon air s motor. To the point Ive put one of my current bikes up for sale in prep of the release details...
A 90nm 600w sub 18kg bike from a UK company and potentially a frame only option sounds too good to be true really. Some interest 'real world' reviews on you tube for the maxon motor would suggest a 600wh battery is the bare minimum needed though.
I’ve previously had a go on a Specialized SL some time ago, the version 1 and it felt way down on power
I havent read the rest but... Gen 2 Levo SL literally solves this. all my riding buddies are on 'FF' ebikes and I've very, very rarely felt short changed. and my bike is 19kg and rides sooo much better for it.
A mate has a gen 2 levo, he gets dropped on big mountain tech climbing, but has no issues with power or range anywhere else.
Whyte Elyte EVO, gen 5 bosch, so the new update but a lot lighter.
IF we remove the range extender its just under 20kg
Full power and sub-22kg = Cannondale Moterra SL or Amflow PL Carbon. IMO they're the only two genuine candidates.
My large transition regulator cx weights about 21kg, 600wh battery Bosch motor.
Whatever you go for, they all weigh pretty much the same for equivalent power / range / components
Anything else at the lighter end of the spectrum will compromise something on that scale. Anything at the heavy end will be a brick but be fast , last ages, and be burly
The Amflow is probably the best compromise of all with shed loads of power big battery and ok components although you would probably add 1kg at least to make it robust, but that doesn’t matter with all that power
Im not convinced it’s that great battery wise though. Never ridden one but it does look like it eats battery.
On paper the amflow does seem to be the answer. Or seemingly any dji powered eBike. Don’t think the dji system has a range extender and fixed battery which I appreciate saves weight. Must find out what general range is on the amflow.
the maxon air s powered bikes sound incredibly light for full power, decent battery. Still not seeing how they’re cracking sub 16-17 kg. That trail linked above looks good, shame the site is only in German.
things have really moved on since I bought my Monterra.
Im not convinced it’s that great battery wise though. Never ridden one but it does look like it eats battery.
My mate’s seems to. He has the big battery version and his consumption %age wise isn’t much better than the rest of us on Levo SLs.
I think the power outputs are misleading, it’s the torque or more importantly where it’s delivered that’s the biggest difference between full power and SL.
I had a CX4 bike for three years and it was fun on the ups but at 26kg I found it a handful. Sold it and had two bike-less years. Bought a gen 2 Levo SL this spring and was initially underwhelmed. It didn’t have the low down grunt of the full fat, but once I started using lower gears and more rpm, the bike really came alive. I only lose out to the amflow when it gets really steep or slow and techy. Even with his Amflow being the posh one with some carbon upgrades, my bike is still noticeably lighter.
although you would probably add 1kg at least to make it robust, but that doesn’t matter with all that power
I always find this an interesting perspective, imo the vast majority of riders 95% don't need to add weight and enduro or DH parts to bikes. We only do it due to marketing and because the sport tells us too.
the maxon air s powered bikes sound incredibly light for full power, decent battery. Still not seeing how they’re cracking sub 16-17 kg.
Because the total motor/battery weight combined of the maxon is similar in weight to a standard mid drive motor on its own. The Thomus Lightrider with an xc build can be built easily into a sub 15kg bike. But it is designed as an xc/trail bike rather than enduro.
The design of the motor and battery also means you have a slimmer profile frame which requires less reinforcement around the battery and motor.
Personally I really like the design of the motor, with it's dual can design, Maxon essentially have separated the BB from the motor. This 'should' make the system more robust and service able? You also don't get the instant motor drag over 15.5mph which is a huge plus on a full power system.
might be the same as static, but trail looks good to me
The Transalpes e1 has the old maxon motor in it which was even lighter but only 40nm and 280w with a 250wh battery
@clubby 100% with you on that.
Full fat ebikes are turbodiesels. Remember when Mk4 Gold Tdis were all the rage, "pulls like a train mate" very easily accessibly torque, and people who had no idea what an actual fast car is would claim they are the 2nd coming of christ.
Levo SL is a Honda Type R. The people above would try one and laugh at the lack of pace - when they put their foot down at 30mph in 5th gear and lo and behold, nothing happens at 1500rpm. But it revs to 9000!
I know which I prefer.
Ref the AMFLOW - they undoubtedly have done the best job of nailing the balance between motor output, bike weight and battery size.
The issue, of couse, is that as a bike, its faily underwhelming. Theres far more to a bike than the figures.
My Orbea Wild is around 23.5kg for full fat long travel greatness. Is that still too heavy?
I still regularly ride normal bikes though for fitness so my eeb is very much about big rides with lots of power as that where the fun is.
Full fat ebikes are turbodiesels. Remember when Mk4 Gold Tdis were all the rage, "pulls like a train mate" very easily accessibly torque, and people who had no idea what an actual fast car is would claim they are the 2nd coming of christ.Levo SL is a Honda Type R. The people above would try one and laugh at the lack of pace - when they put their foot down at 30mph in 5th gear and lo and behold, nothing happens at 1500rpm. But it revs to 9000!
You say that but up until the next gen of mid power bikes, an SL is super weedy compared to even an ‘old’ 85nm/600w Bosch, compared to a Gen5 Bosch at 100nm it’s nowhere.
As weights have come down (for more gravity based bikes) the lines are definitely blurring between FF and SL’s. I can’t really see the point in an SL at 20+ KG when a FF is only 2KG more now in quite a few cases.
A more trail based build at ~18kg kind of makes sense, so something like the new Fuel+ would be decent choice if you can get it there, and it’s got a decent battery now.
Ive not ridden an Amflow other than round a car park, as I’ve got no interest in a mediocre trail bike with a monster motor attached to it (and everyone who rides one is a bit ‘culty’), but I have ridden a DJI powered Unno quite a bit now - the form & integration are great, but running it in the factory settings EATS battery (significantly less than an 800w Bosch battery) which is only to be expected (more power out = more power in, and they are reportedly not as efficient as the Gen5 Bosch) which does make sense if you pedal one turned off. it’s a whole lot noisier descending too. There isn’t much in it with the Bosch power update now either.
DJI is more appealing now it’s in some better bikes, but I’m still not sure I would actually put my hand in my pocket for one yet.
On the plus side for me, I'd much rather stick to carrying my 16Kg ebike upstairs and downstairs at home, I'm not convinced I'd manage anything close to 25Kg these days. And last month it got me around a 50-mile 3250 feet route using 81% of the weedy 248Wh battery over 3hrs10mins, despite using max turbo up most of the 265-340 feet hills, right on the edge of what I can manage these days on a good day.
So, Orbea Rise 25 owner here, 630 battery. It's effectively a full power bike (torque) with the power turned down a bit. You'll still get up something as steep as anyone else, but maybe not quite as quickly. But the other side of that is a great combination of range and weight. I'm 85kg and can ride it in trail all ride, with a very little boost and I reckon range is 1800-2000m vertical. It's a capable trail bike. If you don't need that sort of range you can drop another Kg with the smaller battery (and have the option of a range extender)
Ive not ridden an Amflow other than round a car park, as I’ve got no interest in a mediocre trail bike with a monster motor attached to it
running it in the factory settings EATS battery which is only to be expected (more power out = more power in,
and they are reportedly not as efficient as the Gen5 Bosch) which does make sense if you pedal one turned off. it’s a whole lot noisier descending too.
Is it a "mediocre" trail bike? The geometry is pretty much identical to every other modern trail bike except maybe a slightly high BB (which you can compensate for by mulleting it and keeping the adjuster in the 29er mode)
They've not done any real magic, the motor is less than 100g lighter than the Shimano. Bigger batteries weigh more - the 630 in the Rise is 2.8kg. the 800 option in the Amflow is 3.8kg. Running in stock settings and Auto and the Amflow range is as poor as you'd expect. My mate was barely getting 1200m vert out of his and is now tuning it down for more range
I'm dubious about claims of different efficiencies between motors - I'm sure there is some but suspect it's pretty marginal. It's not going to let you save a kg with a smaller battery and keep the same range for example.
Noise wise the Shimano does rattle a bit, the Amflow as far as I can tell is very quiet (not sure what the noisy decending your'e reporting is from). However, I think that's the price you pay for a clutch - the shimano has as good as no drag - you can absolutely ride it without the motor switched on. The Amflow has a *lot*.
Because the total motor/battery weight combined of the maxon is similar in weight to a standard mid drive motor on its own. The Thomus Lightrider with an xc build can be built easily into a sub 15kg bike. But it is designed as an xc/trail bike rather than enduro.
The design of the motor and battery also means you have a slimmer profile frame which requires less reinforcement around the battery and motor.
Personally I really like the design of the motor, with it's dual can design, Maxon essentially have separated the BB from the motor. This 'should' make the system more robust and service able? You also don't get the instant motor drag over 15.5mph which is a huge plus on a full power system.
That sounds ideal. I’m after an xc focused eBike, I’m definitely not after a full on enduro eBike.
So I currently have a sub 23kg wild, it's getting a little old and that got me lookin at new bikes for next year, just out of interest.
I love the wild but the thing that I find mainly lets it down is that it very much feels like an ebike, definitely not an assited mtb. It's big, heavy and past 15.5mph a complete lump.
It's great on manufactured trails of bike parks, but just isn't as nice to ride on biways as my reg MTB. The lightweight ebikes I've tried have the opposite affect, great on xc trails and biways, better efficiency and little or no drag over the 15.5mph, but not as fun on tech power climbs and shuttle duties.
So a full power light weight ebike with no drag over 15.5mph and good efficiency is exactly what I'm after - not an enduro, heavy weapon of a bike, just a good trail bike that can handle it's self on the dh's but still has the assistance and torque of a full power ebike.
So a full power light weight ebike with no drag over 15.5mph
I wonder how much drag there really is over 15.5mph and how much of it is just trying to pedal a bike at >15.5mph without assistance. My Rise feels much more draggy above the cut off if I'm riding it in boost than in trail due to the way the power is delivered.
I can just ride the rise with the motor off without any trouble if I do it at the start of the day, but try that after a couple of hours of power assist and it feels like riding through treacle.
Note - the Amflow appears to be by far the easiest/simplist bike to hack the speed limiter on. That little disc with holes in at the back is what does it. You can buy a disc with a diffent number of holes that fools the bike into thinking it's' going slower than it is (no complex mechanism, nothing electronic, completely physical, completely undetectable)
Fao anybody interested in maxon. (You might need to be elderly/boring/practical/tight to be interested, but anyway)
having, quite a while ago, been an early adopter of a new motor and being “rather disappointed” in reliability, rebuildability and in my case warranty, I have used the maxon online contact form to contact them, to explain my previous experiences (and point out that a certain brands motor is on my no buy list) And ask about their post warranty support (esp given brexit), spares availability , rebuildability and if they would partner/help any local uk rebuild companies become a ‘approved rebuilder’, etc etc, maybe if a few more people drop a line it might help the UK post warranty support situation. Ta
the Amflow appears to be by far the easiest/simplist bike to hack the speed limiter on
Yeah, I think that's what a lot of people are after.. basically a motorbike that they don't need to license.
Type of people who contacted me when I had an ebike for sale with "How fast does it go?".
Certainly not what I need.
the Amflow appears to be by far the easiest/simplist bike to hack the speed limiter on.
From what I've read a fair few of those that have done this have also had issues as the bike tries to adjust to a speed sensor it's not designed for. I'd have also thought avinox / amflow would be able to recognise when this has been done by analysing the ride data the bike records and it'll void the warranty.
Not sure if it's still possible but you could install a VPN on the Amflow and tell it that you're in a country with no speed restrictions (New Zealand I think)
And last month it got me around a 50-mile 3250 feet route using 81% of the weedy 248Wh battery over 3hrs10mins, despite using max turbo up most of the 265-340 feet hills, right on the edge of what I can manage these days on a good day.
yeah but at that point I’d prefer to be on an analogue bike
I recently did a 42 mile 5,000ft ride on my Rise LT 630wh. First half of the ride I had it in something like 25nm . After about 25 miles I still had 70% battery left so proceeded to use the full 85nm. IMO if your not using the fun bit of an emtb you may as well save a load of cash on go analogue. Also made me think having a 2nd set of wheels setup for XC duties would be beneficial
My comments on Amflow using more battery were based on watching that Lancashire bloke on YT go up Snowdon. He did it slightly quicker than I did but used much more battery to the point the first time he did it he had to come back down the same way. 2nd time he did it he came back via rangders but used pretty much all his 800wh battery . When I did it I did rangers back, then went and rode around Penchamano on my Rise 630wh
On the plus side for me, I'd much rather stick to carrying my 16Kg ebike upstairs and downstairs at home, I'm not convinced I'd manage anything close to 25Kg these days. And last month it got me around a 50-mile 3250 feet route using 81% of the weedy 248Wh battery over 3hrs10mins, despite using max turbo up most of the 265-340 feet hills, right on the edge of what I can manage these days on a good day.
@n0b0dy0ftheg0at what eBike is that ?
GT egrade Bolt
Does a light and not weedy power eBike exist ?
Yes... Anything with a Bosch SX motor fitted...
Don't confuse torque and power remember!
Where other lower torque eBike motors have a similar power plateau around 70rpm or so as most full power motors (albeit they're producing significantly less power at this point), Bosch's SX power graph doesn't plateau until around 108rpm, where it produces the same 600watts as (pre update) CX does at 70rpm...
OK so maintaining 108rpm is pretty difficult/unlikely even for those brought up on singlespeeds or with the stem focus of Chris Froome, but at 90rpm (far more realistic for most of us who can spin smoothly) it's still making 500watts...
The downside of course is that if you're regularly using that 600W output, then you're going to deplete the 400Wh battery quite quickly of course...
Just ordered a bargain price Canyon Neuron Onfly CF7 with the SX motor to contrast my Gen5 CX powered Mondraker Crafty. Half my riding mates tend to do winch and plummet style riding on full fat Enduro eBikes, the other half tend to still do more traditional trail riding on lighter weight mid or low assist eBikes. I of course still really enjoy doing both, but have found the limitations to both types of eBikes (weight and motor cutoff on flatter trails for full power bike, relative lack of torque and often suspension travel/geometry on lighter power bikes) for differing terrains, so have simply decided that now is the time to have one of each...
The Bosch SX system is interesting, but I've only seen it fitted to a Canadian brand that kept snapping stays.....
As above, the cadence sounds too high, but the other day a customer came in for the second time complaining that her bike would only go 15km and then die, and it was 'unrideable'. The diagnostic equipment had previously told us that her cadence was in the low 50s, but she ignored our advice to pedal faster. Out of interest I took the bike out, put it in the max assist mode and hit the climb with the display showing my cadence. I just pedaled at my normal cadence, thinking it was 60-70rpm, but was surprised to see it was 80-90+. I got to the point in the climb where I hit 10% left, then turned around. I did 27km in all and the battery died just as I got to the shop, compared to the customers 15. The battery size was 360w IIRC.
Someone was commenting on the Levo SL above. I took mine out the other day for 3 hours and didn't bother to try and conserve energy as I installed the range extender. I'd have got home fine without it though. The bike weighs 43lb with coil suspension front and rear, thicc tires, and no weight savings anywhere. Rides pretty well like a normal bike.
Depends what you want really. If you want to pedal at 50rpm at turbo mega boost, you'll need a full power bike for sure.
Lots of info and comparisons, reviews on bikes, motors, batteries etc.
the one that sticks out are bikes using the maxon bike drive air s. But no big mainstream manufacturer onboard that I can see, one large ish Swiss manufacturer. And a small British manufacturer.
My (limited) Bosch SX experience is that it's great on road, and tracks that are like roads such as fire roads, but rubbish at proper offroad climbs where cadence drops and rocks and steps need to be negotiated. Would be ideal if you want the motor to help get you to the proper trails (eg Golfie style winch and plummet). I'd go for a motor with more torque paired to a small battery myself for all-round mountain biking.
The Bosch SX system is interesting, . I just pedaled at my normal cadence, thinking it was 60-70rpm, but was surprised to see it was 80-90+. I got to the point in the climb where I hit 10% left, then turned around. I did 27km in all and the battery died just as I got to the shop, compared to the customers 15. The battery size was 360w IIRC.
Depends what you want really. If you want to pedal at 50rpm at turbo mega boost, you'll need a full power bike for sure.
That's interesting. The Orbea Rise is, I believe limited to 400W (rather than the EP8's normal 600) so the SX motor is matching that at a cadence of 80. Like you, my normal cadence seems to be 80-90 and I can hit over 100 briefly for a watt bike sprint.
My partners cadence is lower and she sometimes doesn't get the power out of her Rise, probably for the same reason (I think the Shimano also requires a high cadence for max power, or at least the RS tune of it does). Before getting my first Rise I rode some Bosch and Spec bikes and really didn't like the way they'd just give you all the power at a low cadence.
I only just saw the updatesto the DJI motor - instant start/longer 1000w delivery. looks a bit ridiculous (though so well implemented - it does look like the winner motor right now, so long as you tune it down to sensible levels)
The limit there with the Rise is likely to be torque not power. You (well, your shop) can remove the torque limit on the RS motor unit, while your settings can keep the power lower to preserve battery life.
But... spin to win.
The DJI motor updates (and some recent Bosch CX ones) are a joke. Especially if you want to use a small battery efficiently on a lighter weight bike. They also make riding your ebike less like cycling+, and more like motorbike- .
the one that sticks out are bikes using the maxon bike drive air s. But no big mainstream manufacturer onboard that I can see, one large ish Swiss manufacturer. And a small British manufacturer.
https://ebike-mtb.com/en/maxon-emtbs-eurobike-2025/
It's a small group at the moment, Pole are also testing it for a lightweight ebike in the future. It's interesting to me because it's not mainstream.
The Bosch SX system is interesting, but I've only seen it fitted to a Canadian brand that kept snapping stays.....
theres a fair selection here - https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/ebikes/mountainbike/light#motor=302
@kelvin "The limit there with the Rise is likely to be torque not power. You (well, your shop) can remove the torque limit on the RS motor unit, while your settings can keep the power lower to preserve battery life"
No, it's not. It's the power that's limited. The Rise 25 in RS+ mode (there are two factory modes) gives full 85nm in boost, but is limited in power. The relationship between torque and power is complex but my understanding is that it means you'll get us as steep a slope as any other shimano powered bike, but slightly slower. It definitely gives you a long range with a relatively smaller battery. I'm sure there are ways of getting the standard Shimano firmware on there (and I know some people have had replacement motors on older Rises that didn't have the Orbea firmware, but it's not simply something you can change in the Shimano phone app.
The SX was fitted in the Mondraker Dune XR we had for a weeks loan, it was really a lovely lovely thing, very quiet motor and very responsive.
Original EP8 RS was limited on torque and power (by software). Sounded as if that was what you were talking about. Should be fine at lower cadence with the EP801 RS+ with the higher torque… unless turning the pedals very slowly. It’s not like the SX motor at all in that respect.
the one that sticks out are bikes using the maxon bike drive air s. But no big mainstream manufacturer onboard that I can see, one large ish Swiss manufacturer. And a small British manufacturer.
https://ebike-mtb.com/en/maxon-emtbs-eurobike-2025/
It's a small group at the moment, Pole are also testing it for a lightweight ebike in the future. It's interesting to me because it's not mainstream.
thanks, I’ve already read that, none of that list I’ve heard of before.
There’s also an article on whether the current SL segment is worth having anymore, as maxon have shown decent power can be had at a lighter weight, dji too.
I'm sadly in no rush, but I’d be happier parting with my cash when the maxon motor is more main stream, proven reliability and I know what the support line looks like.
Very similar situation to I was in with the full fat Moterra - such a great fun bike to ride, always in the back of my mind I'd like something lighter.. I even upgraded the forks and wheels to try to get that out of my mind! Then the Moterra SL came up, practically brand new, half price. Couldn't resist! It's slightly less nutty (not so much of a monster truck!) to plough through everything, but it's a pleasure to move around and has almost the same power.
From what I've read a fair few of those that have done this have also had issues as the bike tries to adjust to a speed sensor it's not designed for. I'd have also thought avinox / amflow would be able to recognise when this has been done by analysing the ride data the bike records and it'll void the warranty.
The latest firmware throws an error if the bike detects 'invalid' data from the speed sensor because you have fitted a speedo ring with the 'wrong' number of slots.
There’s also an article on whether the current SL segment is worth having anymore, as maxon have shown decent power can be had at a lighter weight, dji too.
Currently looking at a Forbidden Druid CorE to replace my KSL, but there is a massive wait to get these, unless you were lucky enough to get in early.
Seriously considering the LitE as there is a bit less of a wait for these and can over stroke the shock to get back to 150mm travel, but the 600Wh battery just seems silly small. It's not, really though, unless you want to razz everywhere at 120Nm/1000W
Currently looking at a Forbidden Druid CorE to replace my KSL, but there is a massive wait to get these
Tweed Valley Bikes appear to have them in medium and large, only lowest spec version tho
https://tweedvalleybikes.co.uk/products/forbidden-druid-lite-3-pre-order