[Closed] Do we need more 'middle ground' trails?

Yes, it's my 1 bugbear of what is 'built' these days, everything people build in the wilds are built with massive gaps in them etc, we can't all do the big gaps so it's a little frustrating for riders like me. I'm more of a blue/red sort of rider rather than a black guy and there's just not that sort of stuff being built.

Build them.

We're not lacking in them. You're just in the wrong place.

So, you are complaining that other people who spend their spare time building trails haven't taken your skillset into consideration?
Trails don't appear overnight by trail fairies- perhaps you could get off your backside and build something yourself?.

Entitled much?

You mean at trail centers or in the wild? In the wild we build to the surrounding terrain and skill set. If all trail builders mates are at a certain level, this usually dictates the build level of the trail

I'd like to see more challenging trails near here. Doubles, gaps, rock gardens? more the merrier. everyone else could just get better 😉

I'll stick my oar in I get if you didn't build it dont whinge but I think the rise of the more extreme cheeky is sometimes the reason its flattened as it's very obvious and to a bystander sketchy and a hse nightmare.

Who says he doesn't build ?

He may build many trails... but they get rebuilt, they get modified, it happens a lot round here.

Build them.

This.

Most of the folk that build locally are generally young or folks that love big air, not just because they're young, but there is very little in the way of official trails anywhere in Scotland for them to go and do just that.

They tend to build, ride, go elsewhere and it falls into disrepair til the next lot come along and start the loop again.

I'd love to go to my local landowner and use DMBiS help to advocate and assist in official trails, but I know they won't be up for it as there is no money in it for them, and that's all they're interested in, so I'll continue to sculpt trails through their god awful larch forest. or even better their ugly, vandalised felled areas.

Be great if we had a proper country wide MTB organisation that organised dig days, every member gave a day or two a year of their time, imagine.

Where is your local patch ? Perhaps there are some that suit you close, but you haven't yet found them.

You will have to do something to make your circumstances change - either raise your skills / change your bike / build some trails / try a different riding spot.

I think you need to change your kids.

There's plenty of mellower trails in your bit of Scotland, they're obviously just not letting you ride them.

What’s lacking in quantity is the middle ground in some ways. The challenging, moderately technical, but not so steep I’m looking at my toes when standing at the top.

So the stuff that formed the predominance of 'natural' riding, before people decided they had to build stuff or ride built stuff?

So the stuff that formed the predominance of ‘natural’ riding, before people decided they had to build stuff or ride built stuff?

Tbh there is loads of that around where Matt is, Dumyat, mine woods, north third.... Get an ebike and get up the Ochils, my mate in Menstrie is constantly up there, brilliant way to explore and get off the beaten track.

Get an ebikeJust bloody pedal and get up the Ochils, my mate in Menstrie is constantly up there, brilliant way to explore and get off the beaten track.

Just bloody pedal

Go for it, let us know how you get on, I can gaurantee you that you won't be pedalling the climbs. 🙂

To be honest, I don't know the area, but the thread going straight in to suggestions of built trails and e-bikes managed to push my buttons pretty effectively. I'd best dip out before I get properly grumpy 🙂

Just bloody pedal

Pedal and get one run in, or pedal + ebike and get four runs in. Hmm, which is better?

Anyway, it seems to be location dependent. There are loads and loads of middling technical trails round by me as well as some scary looking ones. By middle I mean open to anyone competent on a bike but still great fun if you pin it.

To be honest, I don’t know the area, but the thread going straight in to suggestions of built trails and e-bikes managed to push my buttons pretty effectively. I’d best dip out before I get properly grumpy

Aye, agreed, you're right, I'm just pointing out other options in the OPs area

To be honest, I don’t know the area, but the thread going straight in to suggestions of built trails and e-bikes managed to push my buttons pretty effectively. I’d best dip out before I get properly grumpy

Down here, the built* trails represent at least 75% of the available singletrack. And it's mostly free of walkers. I'm no MTB hooligan but even I can see the benefit, it's hugely increased the number of trails within riding distance of my house. And as for ebikes, WGAF? You aren't being made to ride one. In fact, I suspect the number of ebikes is a major factor responsible for the vastly increased trail network.

* by built, I mean created by MTBers. Most are just a line through otherwise dense trees where no-one would have gone.

It depends what you mean by "built" and "natural". "Natural" trails may have been made by a bit of clearing and scraping, using the existing terrain etc., and require maintenance. They aren't all completely natural, even if they look it.

Sometimes people decide to "improve" such trails by "building" them, which can create tensions with folk who preferred them the way they were. Generally such alterations make the trials easier in some respects (bermed corners, smoother surfaces) whilst difficulter in others (jumps, drops, the possibility of going faster).

As for "middle ground" it really depends on your skill set where the middle is. There are bike park junkies who can send it miles on the kitty litter but struggle with steep twisty rocky rooty natural stuff, and folk who like that but take the chicken line round anything bigger than a wheelie bin.

There are bike part junkies

Guilty as charged, your honour.

The problem: You have a £5,000 bouncy bike that's completely unnecessary for your local trails.
The solution: Add lots of 'features' to trails and try to change the environment to suit needs of Tommy C hype types. Yeah boi!

There are bike part junkies

Guilty as charged, your honour.

LOL @chakaping, a happy typo. I've changed it now.

The problem: You have a £5,000 bouncy bike that’s completely unnecessary for your local trails.
The solution: Add lots of ‘features’ to trails and try to change the environment to suit needs of Tommy C hype types. Yeah boi!

That's pretty daft. The features aren't there to somehow justify the bike purchase, as if it needed it. They are there because they are fun. Amazing how up themselves some people can be because they apparently don't understand this simple point.

I build a fair bit around Dursley/stinchcombe and often get people messaging asking to build big gaps (or what ever feature they want). It normally gets the reply of go find a section of woodland where there are no existing trails and build your own. Don’t modify existing trails etc
I don’t like shoehorning big features into a trail and much prefer to use existing shapes to create features. Do you know who builds around your area? Maybe reach out and speak to them? Maybe join a dig day?
My time is limited so building features that other people request. Like others have said get out and build something

I think it's because trails naturally tend to be made harder, because once you can ride the trail as it is now, you want to modify and change it so it's a challange again, which leads to the trail itself getting harder slowly.

Most of my local cheeky trails start with a simple single line through the wood. It gets slowly discovered and more and more people ride it. Then someone perhaps builds up a bit of dirt here, pushes a fallen log across there and makes some small features. Then later, someone digs out the middle after the log, building up that earth to make a bigger take off, and suddenly we have a gap jump where previously we had nothing.

At some point, things get too extreme, gaps get too big, jumps too indimidating looking, and now, suddenly the only people riding the trail are the more extreme riders. The bulk of riders who bascially kept the trail open by riding it are now gone, and the trail withers and dies and returns to nature.

This is the natural life cycle of the trail....

(or alternatively the FC comes along and flattens it)

You're missing the point man, trails are either for Gravel bikes or 170mm eBikes now, man, get with the program 😀

They are there because they are fun

They're fun if you own a £5,000 bike.
But a byproduct is that they also often ruin decent natural trails.

I was pondering this very question not so long ago after reading comments on the "local riders FB group" bemoaning the flattening of some trails built without permission on private land...:sigh:

There will always be quite a lot of PURPOSE BUILT LEGAL "beginner trails" and by beginner i mean you could rock up on a reasonably priced starter bike with a helmet and a water bottle and have a lovely time.  No navigation needed, wheels stay on the ground the whole time if you want.   Land managers love these as they are low risk and high reward as they fill the carparking machines and families spend loads at the cafe.  Example: Minortaur at CyB.

At the other end of the scale, there are Dirt Jump spots, DH tracks with big doubles/gaps that get built (generally without permission) because that's what the riders (generally younger) want and aren't served elsewhere outside of the 40quid a day uplift places that could well be 3 hours drive away.  They tend to get flattened unless they are really built well out of the way which is pretty difficult for the vast majority of England but defo more possible in Wales and Scotland.

The middle ground is definitely where things get murky.   On one hand we do have more challenging legally built trails at trail centres, e.g. Tarw Du at CyB but they are few and far between and obviously we have the likes of Bike Park Wales.  I would think the multipurpose FC sites will shy away from building these as the MTB box will have been ticked, all they will get form a slight (if that) uptick in revenue is loads more HSE hassle and incidents.

I think the middle ground is actually best served by getting the maps out/strava/trailforks out and seeking out those tricky natural trails (be they Bridleways or "cheeky") that are a bit further out there.

Even the most cursory glance at trailforks shows that pretty much everywhere has a wide variety of trail levels. Even a mega gnar place like Dunkeld has loads of nice flowy non mental stuff that usually gets overlooked.

The problem: You have a £5,000 bouncy bike that’s completely unnecessary for your local trails.

So I can buy a crap bike and get my thrills on the local canal path? Why didn't I think of that?

They’re fun if you own a £5,000 bike.
But a byproduct is that they also often ruin decent natural trails.

I've never spent 5 grand on a bike in my life but I'd choose built features for fun any day of the week over the crushing misery of endless bridleways.

Stirling has loads of middle ground stuff. I can link a couple of hours worth easily doable on a hardtail but bumpier than a glentress blue....

I’ve never spent 5 grand on a bike in my life but I’d choose the wandering natural beauty of endless bridleways any day of the week to the contrived gnaar-bollocks of built features.

I have spent (nearly) five grand on a bike and I'm glad I won't have to share the gnar with dullards for whom a bridleway is the height of MTBing...

So I can buy a crap bike and get my thrills on the local canal path? Why didn’t I think of that?

No, instead of riding an appropriate bike along a canal path you should add some hype 'features'. Oi, oi. Yeah boi!!!

I don't think it matters what you spend on your bike, or the amount of bounce it gets. Its the size of your balls and the size of the gap/jump/log/hole/drop that actually matters.

Don't forget, some of those slopestyle blokes are doing house sized features on bikes with ohly a few inches of front travel. Then there is whatshisname on GMBM who can session all the jumps at a bike park on a bloody gravel bike FFS.

teethgrinder

We’re not lacking in them. You’re just in the wrong place.

This exactly....

Weesky

Yes, it’s my 1 bugbear of what is ‘built’ these days, everything people build in the wilds are built with massive gaps in them

99% of surrey hills is completely tame... barely more fun than Swinley and in the last weekend I was at Friston which is exactly the same... barely any compulsory doubles and despite being a "trail centre" I was at gisburn a few weeks ago and other than being ruined by artificial surfaces (which I get for erosion) there's only really the hope line and DH section with any features at all.

Miles and miles of tame off piste at FOD...
You could be in the wrong place or you could just be seeing a skewed perspective (see below)

As for “middle ground” it really depends on your skill set where the middle is.

I dunno, my experience is that the impressions of different places are dominated by social media. If you explore there is 10x as much middle ground as any extreme, its just the social media is dominated by a small amount of more extreme parts.

I don’t think it matters what you spend on your bike, or the amount of bounce it gets.

No, instead of riding an appropriate bike along a canal path you should add some hype ‘features’. Oi, oi. Yeah boi!!!

U OK hun?

I have spent (nearly) five grand on a bike and I’m glad I won’t have to share the gnar with dullards for whom a bridleway is the height of MTBing…

But picture the wandering natural beauty. Pedalling on and on forever with no challenge or difficulty. Just stopping for a gate every 2 minutes.

Pedalling on and on forever with no challenge or difficulty.

Well that very much depends on the bridleway, now dunnit.

This is all very much tongue in cheek, I get that, and I can see why people like built features and trail centres and the like, but they just leave me utterly cold. Different strokes for different folks and all that, innit.

I still think that, with the exception of the about 2% that need them because of medical stuff, ebike riders are just lazy bastards though 😉

Guilty as charged and I don't give a monkey's. MTB is all about fun. eMTB is simply more fun. It's not rocket surgery.

I still think that, with the exception of the about 2% that need them because of medical stuff, ebike riders are just lazy bastards though 😉

My local rides in somewhere like Surrey Hills start off with either a drive or a 30km ride (and 30 km back)

Other than my finances and battery anxiety I'd quite happily lose that 60km to an eBike... incidentally I almost always drive if meeting someone to ride just because they need to arrive early enough to get parking and I'm too lazy to set off at 05:00 which brings me to the car parks and people driving somewhere to ride.

Seems a bit weird to me if people driving to ride isn't lazy but if I had an ebike and spare battery me riding there on an ebike is lazy ???

I do agree with the accusations that I have lots of middle ground trails near me.

I think someone said something around new trails and trail improvements being ever 'steeper, bigger, badder' - and I think that is perhaps what I am noticing. Familiar trails = ace. New/improved  = mission creep to gnar?

Don't be coming round here confusing things with a valid use case

They’re fun if you own a £5,000 bike.

But a byproduct is that they also often ruin decent natural trails.

I'll offer Comrie Upper red slowly degrading as evidence here. On my son's Stumpy 130mm FS it's an absolute hoot, and feels straightforward.

On my hardtail it feels like a battering these days.

I still think that, with the exception of the about 2% that need them because of medical stuff, ebike riders are just lazy bastards though

Ever been skiing? Did you spend four hours climbing the mountain on foot?

Think of e-bikes as your own portable uplift for gravity days.

Or, don't, and just stop looking down on people 🙂 makes no difference to me if someone else wants a lift up a hill.

Guilty as charged and I don’t give a monkey’s. MTB is all about fun. eMTB is simply more fun. It’s not rocket surgery.

Exactly, the elite morality monkeys aint ever gonna get it.

@molgrips spot on.

Guilty as charged and I don’t give a monkey’s. MTB is all about fun. eMTB is simply more fun. It’s not rocket surgery.

I want to combine fun with exercise, doing something I love and keeping fit. Why eMTBers can't accept other peoples choices as if they are some how missing out is beyond me. I mean eating ice cream and biscuits is more fun but I'll eat what's good for me too.

Matt - have you ridden the Ochils?

Spectacular challenging, moderately technical, but not so steep trails that go on for km after km.

Thump rode Ben Cleuch and Andrew Gannel last Saturday, Colsnaur on Sunday.

Kept him out of trouble for a few hours.

molgrips

Think of e-bikes as your own portable uplift for gravity days.

PinkBike in particular seems full of people who complain about EBikes while spending all their time shuttling in pickups

Think of e-bikes as your own portable uplift for gravity days.

Uh-huh, and this is definitely how most of them are used, not to ride the same routes as before but with less effort. Right-o.

And, depressingly, I see more and more teenagers on them. So we're teaching a new generation that the default (and it will become the default) answer is the one that uses more resources to make and more resources to, well, use, because the 'easy' option is the best option. I fully appreciate I'm pissing into the wind whilst screaming into the void, but that's just effing depressing.

And, depressingly, I see more and more teenagers on them. So we’re teaching a new generation that the default (and it will become the default) answer is the one that uses more resources to make and more resources to, well, use, because the ‘easy’ option is the best option. I fully appreciate I’m pissing into the wind whilst screaming into the void, but that’s just effing depressing.

This is just developing into another depressingly predictable e-argument, mibbe start yet another thread on it?.

This thread is about illegal building doncha know! 🙂

I once got called a lazy bastard when i was on my Ebike.
By a fat bloke sat in an uplift bus.
Made my day.

Ever been skiing? Did you spend four hours climbing the mountain on foot?

Yup - it's called ski touring, and it's a massive growth area in Scottish skiing 😀

This thread is about illegal building doncha know!

Fair enough, crack on. Well, don't, obviously, it's terrible 🙂

This is just developing into another depressingly predictable e-argument, mibbe start yet another thread on it?.

Bollox to that... I'm sodding off on my bike for a few hours... as soon as my damned delivery arrives anyway.

I think from a cyclist point of view we have loads of trails of all sorts try greenlaning these days there is not a great choice out there I know Scotland is different .

Yup – it’s called ski touring, and it’s a massive growth area in Scottish skiing 😀

Aye, it's grown exponentially, Hamish has now talked Angus and Murdo into going with him!

Yup – it’s called ski touring, and it’s a massive growth area in Scottish skiing

Funny thing (I'll be rushed Wiggle order 2 stops away) is ski touring and XC is a different sport to downhill/slalom and another spirt again to ski jumping.

Much as its horses for courses a week in the alps with chairlifts or ski touring is a non competition for me as a big annual type event compared to ooh I can do a weekend ski touring.

Did lots of XC and telemark when I lived in Norway but it was a completely different thing to a week on chairlifts hurtling down and hitting jumps on ski's or a snowboard

"Middle ground" trails are harder to build for one thing. Better riders can deal with shonkier trails, but also easier stuff attracts more traffic which broadly means better build standards and often means you have to think more about water. There's other practical things- you generally want less gradient, and that tends to make them physically longer. And they don't always sit too well with other trails, since you tend to look for different ground (and if you put an easier trail in a hill where most things are steep, you end up having to crisscross the hill and it takes up more space. And again, less steep trails need to think more about drainage)

But still... look at the tweed valley, frinstance- flat white, green wing and angry sheep are fantastic, accessible trails.

One thing is, the explosion of tolerated offpiste and how much more accessible and easy to find it is, has taken a lot of pressure off trail centres. Imagine the tweed valley without the offpiste- Glentress'd be almost totally stagnant, innerleithen trail centre'd be half forgotten, the uplift wouldn't attract the range of riders, and we wouldn't have a fraction of the breadth of venues and trails. But instead the FC can still say they're part of this massive thing, visitors keep pouring in, we can host EWS rounds... And that lets them cruise, the goose still lays the golden eggs. And it lets councils and funding bodies cruise. You can't really know if it'd be any different if visitor numbers were crashing and local businesses crying out for investment but you'd hope so.

Yup – it’s called ski touring, and it’s a massive growth area in Scottish skiing

I know, but it's nowhere near as popular as uplifted skiing. My point is that people think it's entirely normal to be taken to the top of a mountain to ski or snowboard down, it's not even controversial despite the fact it completely takes over the natural environment, unlike e-bikes.

ski touring and XC is a different sport to downhill/slalom and another spirt again to ski jumping.

They are different sports in MTBing too except that a lot of people haven't realised this.

My point is that people think it’s entirely normal to be taken to the top of a mountain to ski or snowboard down, it’s not even controversial despite the fact it completely takes over the natural environment, unlike e-bikes.

My point is that's not what most people* use e-bikes for. To stretch the analogy, they're using them as the equivalent of motorised cross-country skis

*well, the ones I see using e-bikes

My point is that’s not what most people* use e-bikes for. To stretch the analogy, they’re using them as the equivalent of motorised cross-country skis

Mibbe dependant on your local terrain. I'm sure there's folk hoon roon swinley, cannock etc, but folk I know who enjoy that type of riding aren't really into the ebiking yet, all my riding buddies who twiddle up fire roads for multiple fun plunges are the ones that are into them.

Which is pretty much molgrips point (and he has similar local terrain)

My point is that’s not what most people* use e-bikes for.

That's what most of them here are used for. We have a lot of elevation, a lot of cool steep singletrack, which means a lot of climbing and time if you want to do multiple runs.

What are they using them for round your way? Getting out and about? How dare they!

Yeah most of the Surrey Hills apart from the semi secret stuff is very tame. Nothing commiting, very middle aged friendly.

“ I want to combine fun with exercise, doing something I love and keeping fit.”

I do that on my ebike. And on my normal hardtail. And I spend a lot of time pedalling my ebike with the power off because normal bikes are too lightweight and easy to pedal uphill.

Back on topic, if you want middling trails we have loads of them down here!

I want to combine fun with exercise, doing something I love and keeping fit. Why eMTBers can’t accept other peoples choices as if they are some how missing out is beyond me. I mean eating ice cream and biscuits is more fun but I’ll eat what’s good for me too.

Crikey, the irony!!

What’s lacking in quantity is the middle ground in some ways. The challenging, moderately technical, but not so steep I’m looking at my toes when standing at the top.

This is what I am currently looking for. The boys can do Red trails at GT and comrie so wanting them to try something that GT/Golfie/inners has to offer. They both went down SkullDuggery and enjoyed it, so want to do more.

Why eMTBers can’t accept other peoples choices as if they are some how missing out is beyond me.

No eMTBers are doing this. The only criticism going on here is traditional MTBers criticising people for e-biking.

I don't own an eMTB and I have no plans to buy one. I'm just saying don't look down on people who do!

Could it be an age thing? I'm nearly 50 and remember mtb'ing many (25+) years ago when it was basically just about getting into the Yorkshire moors/dales and riding all day whilst following a map or book until you remembered the trail.

'Propper mountain biking' as I probably called it back then. Yes there were natural jumps, berms, rocks etc etc but, nothing as purposely made as today. The first time we went to CYB and did the Red Bull trail it was like all the previous rides condensed into a much shorter ride. Enjoyed it and that was the start of trail centres.

The centres do seem to have become more gnar over recent years, and imho not for the better.
Then again, as I said above it's probably because I am getting old, fat and slow with too much self preservation coming out now.

Having said that, the long route at Nant Y Arian is very good and much in the style of older type riding. Really goes out into the wild and has some very natural feeling riding without being too sculptured. That's probably the middle ground the OP is looking for. Trouble is it won't appeal to the majority and in comparison will likely cost far too much to maintain and police due to the spread of the trail.

Not sure if I've gone way OT with this post but it's how I see mtb'ing nowadays.

I'm in east lothian and wee used to have Carberry which had 4 lines from anyone can do to over 20 ft gaps and ladder drops. My mates kids age from about 12 -15 and some are seriously talented and rapid. they have built their own lines which most of us avoid.
Due to this and the less blessed hurting themselves some of the dads have also build a wee local jump line that their kids can do . Smaller 8 ft gaps and 2 to 3 foot drops, It wont be long till the other kids get fed and start hitting the bigger stuff.
Also depends where you stay , obviously if your lucky to be near somewhere like the Valley or Dunblane area there will indeed be something for everyone.

Welsh and Uk Trail centres are full of middle ground trails, with all the good stuff off piste.