[Closed] Do I want/need a power meter on my MTB?

I spunked a bunch of cash on garmin PM pedals (the rally XC dual ones) for similar reasons to you... but.. It's probably of more use when I pop them on the gravel bike as it's a more constant power delivery.

However, I'm always a fan of data - it's interesting to review power data from a ride (race, for example) or like you say to guage a long effort climbing... but it's also useful for garmin head units/watches to figure out how hard you went, stamina etc etc...

At the end of the day, it's probably not THAT useful, certainly not as useful as the power dats from a turbo..

But...

It's your money.. data is fun.,..so go for it!

DrP

In my experience no. You should be able to find your level automatically on a long steady climb as long as you set off somewhere in the region of your FTP and not into your red zone, which should be obvious. As you settle down you'll be able to know if you need to back off or press on.

A power meter is really a training tool, and cycling training is best done by far on the road except for MTB handling skills obviously and acclimatising to whatever race environment you are looking at e.g. practice hammering along tight twisty singletrack with short sharp climbs if you race Gorrick.

In my mind the pacing on big rides is the main benefit but I’ll also be able to use it to train on local rides by setting a power target etc.

What do you mean by 'power target'? An average power over a ride is useless. If you set a target of 210W and you are riding in bursts of 250 and 170W you are getting a completely different workout as if you maintain 210W. So you need to decide what type of training you need to do, and work out how to do it. And the MTB is almost always not the best way to do it because MTB riding is too inconsistent. Road riding is reasonable, and of course best for long steady efforts but Zwift is probably better for intervals etc. You can find a nice outside hill for a 5 min climb to do your intervals on but it can often be pretty difficult to get back down again in 1 min for the next rep!

Hmm yeah agreed it's probably less useful for MTB training, although one of my regular riding spots consists of a 2-3min climb with 1-1.5min descents, which you can keep doing all day long.

However that wouldn't be difficult to use for training without a power meter, just ride up the climb at 75%, then down the trail and continue for an hour or 2.

So it really comes down to whether it would help that much on the big days and multi day trips.

I've looked at booking certain trips before and not done so because I wasn't sure if my fitness was up to it, and I've been on trips where I was having to push well beyond my fitness level, and by the last day I was basically dead (thigh cramps etc) - is being able to pace better going to help this? Chances are I'll do future trips where I'm reaching/over my fitness level.

It is useful for measuring longer intervals on the bike, its also useful for post-ride fatigue / understanding.

But not essential - Evie Richards does ok without one I've heard.

While you might be able to guestimate what say your z2 limit is (eg. 200W) after using your turbo with a power meter, being able to see the readings from a power meter takes the guesswork out. Same goes for a hill climb, if you know from Zwift you can do say 300W for 10mins, if you tackle a real life hill you can pace your effort to try and match that 300W outdoors and maybe get a new pb on the climb without blowing up by going too hard too early.

Power meters can be fun, if you can afford it, why not grab one for the MTB?

I have one.

I find it useful, but it's limited how useful.

In single track its quite hard to keep an eye on it & on the trail & modify your effort accordingly.

It is good, however, on those sections where you might have some fireroad or it's less technical & you can just keep the power on. Certainly found it helpful in avoiding blowing up/going too easy. For example: if you know your 5min power (anaerobic capacity) & you've a section where you can get on the gas for a few minutes judging your effort becomes so much easier. I like mine & managed to get a bit of a deal on it - reduced price & interest free.

Power meters can be fun, if you can afford it, why not grab one for the MTB?

I think this sums it up!
However, the reason I got the pedals is i can swap them from bike to bike..
I've stuck them on the 150mm trail bike sut to see what power i deliver in short sprinty sections, for example.
(spoiler, it was nothing surprising!!!!! ha!)

DrP

Cheers guys, think I'll look out for a deal and also depending what bonus I get this year I may splash out. 👍

Same goes for a hill climb, if you know from Zwift you can do say 300W for 10mins, if you tackle a real life hill you can pace your effort to try and match that 300W outdoors and maybe get a new pb on the climb without blowing up by going too hard too early.

It is good, however, on those sections where you might have some fireroad or it’s less technical & you can just keep the power on. Certainly found it helpful in avoiding blowing up/going too easy.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. If my FTP is 246w, and I'm on the first 40 min climb of a 5 day trip, and I look down and see 200+w for the past 5 mins, then I know realistically I need to calm the hell down a bit... 😁

Pedals aren't an option for me as I ride on flats.

I have one after my smart trainer died during one of the lockdowns and none were available. Its a 4iii single sided as reviews mentioned many cyclocross riders used them as they were reliable in the mud. 2 years on no issues what so ever riding in Wales and over 5000 miles a year. Suits me as I session descents, or should that be repeat climbs at a certain wattage and then practice no braking on the descents as I'm too tied to pedal! Has me riding like Io used to when I first started moving, repeating descents trying out different lines etc, just a lot more tired! Also great on a loop I have with three long road climbs between off-road sections, so they get hammered to certain wattages .

But for trail centres and general riding with mates it isn't a lot of use or something I look at often. You will also need to change the settings to at least 3 second average or power jumps around like a yoyo!

Pacing can be done by experience on most efforts I find, for all except z2 efforts and even then once you get a feel for it you can do without.

I agree it's probably not essential - if you ride enough you'll know approximately what you can manage and for how long, so you can 100% do without a power meter but I agree whole heartedly with this:

It’s your money.. data is fun.,..so go for it!

and this

Power meters can be fun, if you can afford it, why not grab one for the MTB?

Plus I can also see how it might be useful on a long draggy climb (eg Welsh fire roads!) if you want to get close to the limit without destroying yourself.

If you've got the money and want them, forget whether you need them or not and just crack on. No need to apologise for spending your own money on something you enjoy, as long as you're not killing any kittens in the process.

I've had pms on mtbs and on road bikes and turbos. I just can't see the value proposition, except for maybe marathon xc.

XCO/short track you're going too fast to look at your PM. You judge shit off of RPE and HR. Maybe you could set up a NP field, and judge blocks of time from NP on laps (e.g. NP <ftp, HR not spiking, I can push harder next lap, or NP>FTP, I can't sustain this - but equally you can tell this easily if you know your threshhold HR.
Technical riding; you aren't going to be looking at your PM, nor is your current or averaged power particularly reflective of the effort level you are putting in. It won't accommodate for upper body work; and when you're putting the beans in you aren't looking at a PM. HR is a better metric to manage your effort (as long as you know your LTHR).
Casual rides, HRTSS is pretty effective at quantifying work and having a PM is just bad for your enjoyment of a ride.

I think the better question is; why not spend the £300 you're spending on upgrading to XTR for some bits?

Cheers for the thoughts, all helps.

I think the better question is; why not spend the £300 you’re spending on upgrading to XTR for some bits?

I'm only changing cranks and bottom bracket because of yet another failed BB (pressfit, yay), so I'm moving from 30mm to 24mm Shimano cranks. I don't see any reason to go for XTR cranks over XT, unless I see a cracking deal.

I think there's value in a PM on an MTB, but only if you have a training plan and a good way to fit intervals into your ride. I'll typically ride to a hill, do some hill reps for the intervals then ride off and do some playing about. I'll tend to do 3min or less intervals on the MTB and leave longer structures for the road bike or turbo.

I could easily do the intervals using RPE and get similar traiing benefits, but I enjoy having targets and hitting them.

If you’re training a lot it’s useful to have the workout data from your MTB rides in your TrainingPeaks, also useful for pacing on longer rides / races but training on trails is tricky because it is harder to maintain a fixed power output off-round.

Just don’t buy a Stages. I’ve had 4 and literally every one broke and a needed warranty replacement. I’ve switched to Garmin XC200 Si I can easily switch between bikes.

Yeah realistically I won't use it much, if at all for training. Also I have 2 mountain bikes so only one will have a power meter if I decide to get one, so I won't be able to track power for every ride. It'll just be used to gauge the effort I'm exerting on a particular ride, and even then only really on the big climbs.

I've got one. Not sure I'd bother again - what everyone else says really, has to be a very steady/controlled training effort to be useful, which doesn't happen that often on an MTB. Mine's a Power2max Shimano spider one, which does at least make it somewhat transferable. Definitely the icing on the cake and the last thing to splash out on.

But not essential – Evie Richards does ok without one I’ve heard.

Jolanda Neff did away with hers for the Olympics and took gold!

I have one after my smart trainer died during one of the lockdowns and none were available. Its a 4iii single sided as reviews mentioned many cyclocross riders used them as they were reliable in the mud.

Which model did you go for? The Podiiium? Thinking using a pair could be quite interesting, and potentially useful, for me - epecially tracking over a longer time period and working out if there's a wattage at which my legs fully crap out so I can stay away from it.

In my mind the pacing on big rides is the main benefit but I’ll also be able to use it to train on local rides by setting a power target etc.

I can genuinely see the benefits of training to a power meter on rollers or turbo (although, as has been mentioned both Richards and Neff seem to manage fine without) but I honestly can't see how a power meter on a real world bike doesn't just replicate, at a much higher price point, pretty much the same basic info that a HR strap does i.e. measure your effort? If you're training to race, a huge amount of that's indoors, out on the bike aren't you just flat out anyway? (for a given value of "flat out")

I think people have raised valid points with the"not really easy to train with data on a MTB (or the road)"..

But.. sometimes jsut recording data can be useful.
I frequently ride east-west and west-east along the south coast. With power data I can assess my ride properly, as opposed to speed data alone (cos you literally get blown west-east!!!).. it's useful to make sure i'm not pushing too much, or pointlesss draining my legs when I should be commuting gently! Yup, this is on teh road, but I guess you could also extrapolate to MTB... i.e you want to do a GENTLE ride, recovery perhaps, so want to be aware of pushing above 300w for too long... a PM may be of use there.

But ultimately, the power data from a turbo is king... on a real bike it's fun, possible useful....

DrP

same basic info that a HR strap does i.e. measure your effort?

If you are looking for data to help you pace a ride I'm not sure HR is a good measure as it lags too much. For example on an indoor interval session I might hit a zone4 interval but it'll take my HR a couple of minutes or longer to catch up, whereas if I use a power target (actually just cadence target as I usually use erg mode) then I know I'm where I should be immediately.

This probably isn't so much of an issue on the road where efforts tend to be longer and more consistent, but on MTB where effort is pretty lumpy you might be better with a PM.

Debating the same for MTB. Have the 4iii on my road bike that I find very useful. I use it mostly round Richmond park to not overshoot my training zones, also useful to analyse data post ride when pushing. Not so useful for general riding.

I’d always push too hard without it.

Do you want to be thinking about watts and PM readings during those big days in the mountains?

Had similar thoughts on HRM use during training or base miles vs for pacing the big rides I enjoy most in summer:
1) CBA with anything but the ride and the place when somewhere inspiring. More tech just distracts or gets on my wick.
2) Got used to pacing myself by using the HRM and can do pretty well without it now.

IME, great to use the tech to learn or train but better to be able to use the benefits and what you learn from it to function well without it.

As someone who attempts to to a bit of training but isn't committed to it, I've found a power meter has been an excellent addition - I'm using a borrowed 4iii crank power meter and it works brilliantly.

I really fancy the Garmin SPD pedals but can't justify the price - the type of riding I'm doing and my general lack of fitness makes them complete overkill, but I think for people who are fit and are aware of how it can all work, I suspect they'd be great.

Saying that, I'm finding sticking to power levels is far easier on the turbo and I struggle to do so when actual riding as the terrain around me is too varied, but also sections are not long enough to sustain an effort.

I'd love the pedals though...

You most likely don’t need one, but if you want one and like having that kind of data then go for it. Quite a few of my friends love their power meters and riding with them.

I've got a PM on my summer road bike, and only really use it for long events when I can meter my output to make sure I survive the ride.

On a regular club ride I barely take a cursory glance at it. Don't need a power meter to tell me if I'm in the bunch or dropped 🙂 Winter bike doesn't have one.

I can't see the point on MTB unless racing or taking part in a long event (where you have to meter your efforts).

I know the ideal answer is to be fit enough to not have to worry about pacing on big rides, which I'm working on...

But, take this non-hypothetical situation, would a power meter help here? This happened to me last May.

First day of a 5 day trip, me (having not done a huge amount of riding the previous 2 months, maybe 150k) with fitness somewhat lacking.

First ride of the 5 days is straight into a 275m, 4km, 40 min climb out the gate. 19k, 385m total ascent on the ride, this was a half day Vs a full day ride. I hit 191bpm on that climb.

Would being able to see my wattage over the course of that climb have helped? Not that I could have gone much slower, but with improved fitness (I'm in a MUCH better place this year) I would have the possibility of over exerting if the pace was fast.

There were other big climbs on the trip too, 350m, 1hr long for instance, but this one stuck out.

ETA: I think the general consensus is 'yeah, it might be useful, but it's very much a want and not a need"

I have a set of garmin XC100 pedals which mainly live on my gravel / road bike.

I've tried them on my xc hardtail and for a trainging ride on simplier stuff they are fine, but anything from singletrack to short punchy climbs the data is useless. (Have a s****y pair of xpedo ti pedals for racing on)

I love data - and i have done some training sssions with them on the mtb. I only look at the data afterwards, its not smooth enough to focus on it while riding.

I'd never put them on my trail bike - they are bit fatter than normal pedlas and i don't really want to test them out on a rock.

I've not raced with them on my mtb - i go by feel.

i can only see a PM being useful for training... ie repeated hill climbs or long periods of road training...

to pace yourself up a hill? wouldnt heart rate be much more useful than power.. no good if you are having an off day trying to maintain the power you think you can maintain, when your heart is popping out of your ears
i dont know how you climb.... but i alternate between out of seat and seated climbing, changing up and down gears to suit.. if i had to sit and spin at a constant power i would not be a happy boy

Would being able to see my wattage over the course of that climb have helped?

Honestly, I doubt it. It sounds like you need some good base training. Once you get that you should have a feel for when you are in the red and when you are not. Just stay out of the red and you should be ok. I mean, how will you know what power to aim for?

Your body has multiple energy pathways, like having different engines - they are trained differently. I went bikepacking in October, loads of climbing, laden bike and a fat body. 12 hours on the first day 8 on the second. I got tired after the first 3-4 hours as is usual as my fast riding engine got tired out, but then my long term engine took over and I found my level which I could keep up for as long as needed. Fortunately, because I've been around long enough doing base training, that level is enough to get me up the hills of Wales albeit slowly. It sounds to me like your long distance engine needs training.

Ironically in the context of my input to this thread, power meters do help with this - but on road.

Oh, everything needed training last spring, believe me...

Which is why I've attacked zwift this winter since December, I should be in 10x better shape this year Vs last year. Which has then given me a new bit of data to add to my knowledge... Power!

If you like stats and have the funds, why not get one.

I’m never going to enter a race nowadays and am not fit enough by any stretch to have a need to train outdoors to power, but I love the rotor 2inpower on my main full suss.

Use it occasionally (very, not been outside on a bike for months) when riding up a slow steady hill, although in the main it is just to produce and analyse the figure when I get home.

Sad but all adds to the hobby.

Bought one of the £240 spider based ones from Amazon initially, but couldn’t get it to work properly, by which time I got fed up and the spent some real money on the Rotor unit.

I used to have one (on road) but never replaced it after it died.

It was interesting initially but you get all your benchmarking etc from ramp tests on a smart turbo / watt bike etc if you're training seriously.

I'd be amazed if it's much use off road, the power delivery will be so choppy.

If I bought one now I think it would just depress me - "oh, is that all?"

I'm in the process of fitting a Stages power meter crank to my Cotic for Bikepacking duties.. It depends of what type of riding your doing from my research on looking into power meters there are riders on the eduro pro scene that use them also in XC. Moving from HR based training to Power was akin to the cavemen inventing the wheel and has made a big difference.

Which is why I’ve attacked zwift this winter since December, I should be in 10x better shape this year Vs last year.

Have you been doing the right workouts ...??

Have you been doing the right workouts …??

No, probably not.

But, at my level, any structured training plan (IE time on the bike) is better than what I did last year over winter, which was basically nothing (6 weeks of dirt destroyer and 12 weeks of build me up about to start, if you're interested).

Anyway, that's not the subject for this thread.

And yes, I know roughly what HR I can sustain for an hour, and in general how to ride to allow me to complete 5 days in the saddle. And thanks to Zwift, what power I can hold for an hour (theoretically) at max effort. It's whether, knowing my FTP, a power meter would allow me judge my effort/output better than just going on perceived effort/HR.

Seems it might, but probably not by much.

Well there are a number of issues here. FTP is 95% of your 20 minute pace, typically, although it's a theoretical concept mostly. I would call the 20 minute max power your anaerobic threshold, which is the point at which lactate starts to accumulate faster than you can shift it. But there's another threshold, which is the point at which you switch from metabolising mostly fat to using more carbohydrate. This you have to find with a blood lactate test, it's the point where your blood lactate levels start to increase, but you can still clear it out.

This is the pace at which you do base training, commonly known as zone 2, and it can only be accurately determined with a blood test. However I have found that it's roughly the point at which my breathing just starts to intrude on my ability to hold a conversation normally. Because you are riding without producing much lactate at this pace, this is what you want to aim for on all-day rides or ultra endurance stuff.

Moving from HR based training to Power was akin to the cavemen inventing the wheel and has made a big difference.

Has it really made a big difference? Are there any studies / papers comparing the two?

Never really struck me as being revolutionary.

i'm not sure a powermetres would be useful when pushing/carrying bikes up some lakeside hills, Grisdale Pike for example, i think i only rode 200-300 metres in distance on 790m [vertical] climb .

Cheers @molgrips some useful info there 👍

i’m not sure a powermetres would be useful when pushing/carrying bikes up some lakeside hills, Grisdale Pike for example, i think i only rode 200-300 metres in distance on 790m [vertical] climb .

Ha, no - I've not had to do too much proper hikeabike in the lakes yet, I've resorted to pushing a few times mind you...

@chvck it was the XT Precision one-sided 170mm crank I bought and only thing I've had to do is change the battery four times

Do you need power on an MTB?

Is it ok to want and get it? Of course.

I just got tempted into an ebay Stages / XTR crankset. I always ride with power on my road bikes and find it 'comforting' to see it. Its like a friend to take on a bike ride, something to look at and focus on. You can also shout random numbers at your riding buddies in an annoying way.

I tend to ride road to my local woods for about 9 miles each way, so helps with efforts then.

I did my first real MTB ride with power last night and was surprised at some of the numbers I hit for short bursts, way higher than I do on the road, but also surprised at how few watts I put out on some really steep stuff where I think my under gearing makes it hard to generate more power. Eg on flats 300w for 2 mins is easy, but going up a 20% hill at 50rpm makes 250w feel brutal. Perhaps I should fit a smaller chainring (annoying as just bought a new 34T to go with the new chainset).

Eg on flats 300w for 2 mins is easy, but going up a 20% hill at 50rpm makes 250w feel brutal.

How heavy are you? Power to weight ratio comes more into play when climbing I think, which might make things feel harder.

50rpm won't help! Smaller chainring is probably a good idea. What's your cadence when you put out 300w on the flat? It's easier to put out more power at a higher cadence.

I've never trained with just heartrate - but if your trying to do short intervals - then heart rate is too slow to react.
If longer sustained power is your thing, then RPE / heart rate could be used.

But i like the fact that power data does not vary if i'm feeling crap or ill. It is what it is.
If i can't hit a number - then heart ratre is usefull to see if i'm possibly coming down with somthing.