Do I want a Kona Unit or Surly Karate Monkey or something else?

Pipedream Sirius S6

Cotic Solaris

Pace RC529

Pipedream Sirius S6

Cotic Solaris

Pace RC529

Thanks, but none of those can take full length mudgaurds - that's essential for me. If I was looking for a replacement hardtail MTB then yes, but these don't work for this use.

Kona Unit - yes.

Sold mine and regret it. Think I might buy another. Wish it was a bit lighter though. Great geometry.

Always liked the look of the Unit and you generally only hear positive things from owners.

Brother had two KM's and they were heavy BUT they never rode or felt like it IMO, great do it all bikes. He used his for locals trails, never loaded.

Nothing nice from Nicolai? Not steel I know but maybe you’d like the “Geolution” as they renamed Chris Porter’s long slack low geometry after eventually adopting it. So it would fit like your (and my) Geometron.
There’s a Geometron owners FB group with a few hardtails posted - I guess you knew that?
You could even have a gearbox.

Love my unit

as said they are a bit hefty!

Sold mine and regret it. Think I might buy another. Wish it was a bit lighter though. Great geometry.

What sort of riding did you mainly use yours for? My use is local trails, tame trailcentre, etc - nothing technical, just early morning or late night blats around my local trails, with a bit of canal path or similar thrown in.

Brother had two KM’s and they were heavy BUT they never rode or felt like it IMO, great do it all bikes. He used his for locals trails, never loaded.

That's encouraging. I've read that often: that the KM (and the Unit) ride lighter than they weigh.

Nothing nice from Nicolai?

Unfortanately not. I'm on the FB group and seen some of the hardtail builds but not really the sort of thing I'm after. I've already got a BFe MAX that fills my hardtail role but is overkill (and lacks the mudguard capability) for this niche of mine. Cotic's Longshot geometry I see as CP-lite/Geolution-lite: LLS but not quite as LLS as a GeoMetron.

Oh if I could be happy with flared drops my choices would be so much wider! (but I can't so they won't)

Brother Big Bro? I believe it'll take mudguards, but can't remember.

Stooge Scrambler? Not sure if it takes mudguards though...

Something from Singular? I absolutely love my Rooster and would get another one (or the latest incarnation) without hesitation. Maybe give Sam a call and talk him through what your needs are.

Do like mine (bought off here), use it for similar general off road miles, and good fun on single-track too. It is quite hefty, but with the right tyres and lightish wheels it feels good. Put full guards on too for a short time...

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In "recommend what you own" fashion, I love my Brother Big Bro. Fills I think all of your criteria plus sliding dropouts for single speed if you like, not sure on max chainring but should be easy to check. I run a 34T and there's plenty of clearance.

Clearance for up to 29x3.0 I think, I've run 27.5 x 2.8 (pictured) and since swapped to 29 x 2.4 and it's been super comfy and a lot of fun on both. I probably wouldn't go with a 700x50 mainly because I think it would look odd, but also I think comfort would suffer, it probably does need a bit more tyre volume than something with a skinnier frameset and I think a Surly/Kona would be the same as the tubing on them all is a bit industrial compared to something like a Ritchey P-29 or a Singular.

@faustus, that's lovely.

it probably does need a bit more tyre volume than something with a skinnier frameset and I think a Surly/Kona would be the same as the tubing on them all is a bit industrial

That's my worry: the tubing being built to handle a loaded tourer/adventure might be overkill for lighter use with lower-volume tyres. My cracked Mutsu was similar though in having the clearance and tube profile for wider tyres and heavier use, and I found it comfy enough with 700x50.

I'm not sure if what I really want exists so might need to compromise. Something like the Surly/Kona but with skinnier/lighter tubes for more compliance. I'm sure I can find an equivalent in drop/flared bar framesets but haven't yet found what I want for flat bars. Can't afford custom!

Cotic cascade? You can run that with flat bars (I've got Jones bars on mine?

Singular Gryphon?

https://singularcycles.com/products/gryphon-steel

Sure about that? The konas, surlys and pipedreams are 7-800. I'm not saying it's right for you but a dawley will run you about 1k...

Edit: in response to 'can't afford custom'

Fairlight Holt is a good option, I really lust after one as it's skinny xc and custom tubing, but works well as a rigid...not sure if it has mudguard mounts though

I went for a On one vandal with a rigid fork.

It was a pain to fit the rack and muguards with p clips.

I've been thinking should have gone for a unit.

I doubt you will be going for another ti on one!

If mine breaks I'm going for this, with lighter wheels and gears

https://theradavist.com/readers-rides-marcels-singlespeed-kona-unit/

a11yFull Member
Sold mine and regret it. Think I might buy another. Wish it was a bit lighter though. Great geometry.
What sort of riding did you mainly use yours for? My use is local trails, tame trailcentre, etc – nothing technical, just early morning or late night blats around my local trails, with a bit of canal path or similar thrown in.

25 mile commutes and 50 mile gravel rides. All singlespeed. Boy was I fit.

Cotic cascade? You can run that with flat bars (I’ve got Jones bars on mine?

That's the frame I want to suit, but the geometry's quite short reach for running a flat bar: 454mm reach on an XL with a 80-100mm stem recommendation. I'm a soft touch for a Cotic - I've owned quite a few - but to me that geometry looks much more angled to drops than flat.

Sure about that? The konas, surlys and pipedreams are 7-800. I’m not saying it’s right for you but a dawley will run you about 1k… Edit: in response to ‘can’t afford custom’

I know, you might be right. If I'm being honest I'd rather not spend as much as a Kona or Surly costs but I think that's the entry point for the kind of thing I'm looking for.

I doubt you will be going for another ti on one!

What makes you think that? 🙂

I#m swinging towards the Unit. Issue is frameset-only doesn't appear to be in stock in XL anywhere, so it's full bike in SS format or geared 'X'. I only need a frame...

I found a unit frame in XL in stock somewhere last month. I can't find it now!

No idea if these are any cheaper that what you have seen. The frame set I saw was £750, I think. So the full bikes might get close to that after you sell the parts?

https://www.cyclestore.co.uk/kona_unit_29er_rigid_fork_mountain_bike_2023-ID_87259?opt=192484&gclid=CjwKCAjwhJukBhBPEiwAniIcNeuu0Aps5MvlO3ixU7b74U3zNQXQrJRFbJGCXrm9qWoXSKavTXbY4RoCF3kQAvD_BwE

Sell the bits, get some geared dropouts?

https://www.konabikeshop.co.uk/unit-x-2023.html?id=272655059&quantity=1

Sell the bits?

https://winstanleysbikes.co.uk/kona-unit-x-2023-bike

Preorder at winstanleys. Give them a ring and see if it's is coming back in stock?

Stop it! 🙂

Yep, it's £750 for frameset, £1200 for the SS, or £1360 for geared. Geared seems the better deal than SS but (typically) I prefer the SS frame colour... If you find that XL frameset again let me know. I'm a sucker for a plainer (or ideally raw) frame over something coloured - unless it's yellow.

Sutra LtD in a rather nice colour? On sale.

https://www.konabikeshop.co.uk/sutra-ltd-frame-2022.html

Surly Krampus gets my vote…everything a KM can do but with the option of bigger rubber. Love mine.

On a side note if you consider selling the cracked Ti frame I’d be interested. Cheers

Genesis Longitude perhaps but unfortunately not boost spacing?

How about a Spa Rove? Available in Ti or Reynolds 725: https://spacycles.co.uk/m11b0s143p5091/SPA-CYCLES-Rove-725-Frameset

Mounts for full length mudguards

I have Velo Orange 63s on mine. The rear eyelets are in odd positions (very few racks would fit), so the standard stays aren't long enough, but fortunately I was using PDW Safety Tabs anyway which add a bit of length.

Clearance for 700×50 plus mudguards 36-38t chainring clearance (1x setup)

Will fit a 34 no problem. Might well fit a 36 but very tight (could well be sub-1mm). I asked Kona and they said maybe but under flex it might catch.

I love flared drops but only the WTB ones. Still have a few of their shifter mounts in case I ever go back from the G1 and KSL.

@bikesandboots, thanks. A noticed from build images online that the rear guard attaches in a strange place requiring long stays. I use SKS Edge AL56s with 700x50s at the moment, but would likely need replacement stays for a Unit. 36t is the smallest I'd want to go.

How about a Spa Rove?

That's lovely. Very conservative/short geometry for flat bars though.

On a side note if you consider selling the cracked Ti frame I’d be interested. Cheers

Will do. Quite fancy doing something with it as a wall ornament / bit of art though.

Sutra LtD in a rather nice colour? On sale.
This is a rather nice colour. Better than the 2023 colour. 'Wrong' bars for me, but...

I love flared drops but only the WTB ones.

...I'm coming around to the idea of flared drops. I only ride MTBs so perhaps I'm just (irrationally?) scared of drops. Everything else about gravel bikes look ideally suited for my use so perhaps I need to give them another try. I need a proper test ride, ideally on my local trails.

…I’m coming around to the idea of flared drops. I only ride MTBs so perhaps I’m just (irrationally?) scared of drops. Everything else about gravel bikes look ideally suited for my use so perhaps I need to give them another try. I need a proper test ride, ideally on my local trails.

Ritchey Beacon are brilliant. They have loads of outward flare but the drops are still parallel, which leaves your hands much wider in the drops than the hoods. They also have a very minimal drop, which is prob more important imo.

Think there is still an XL Krampus at Backcountry in Aviemore. Details on their Facebook page

Ritchey Beacon are brilliant. They have loads of outward flare but the drops are still parallel, which leaves your hands much wider in the drops than the hoods. They also have a very minimal drop, which is prob more important imo.

I'm new to understanding drop bar characteristics but those do look interesting. Minimal drop appeals to me as does width. I had a play on Cotic's configurator earlier and 52cm PNW Coast bars are an upgrade option, but these Ritcheys are even less drop.

these Ritcheys are even less drop.

I ride Beacon XLs on my Cascade and think they're ace, but their Corralitos has even less less drop and I'd be tempted by them if buying now.

IMO, too many wide flared drops don't have a complete enough hook, which leads to a compromise between ramps and drop position. I like that Ritchey bars can have their drops AND ramps closer to horizontal than many others (of which I now have a shed full of rejects)

@a11y the key thing is that flare comes in two flavours: either the drops' ends twisting outwards (like Salsa Woodchippers) or the whole drop rotating  outwards and upwards (like Ritchey Beacon)

People get obsessed with flare, but I think (minimising) drop is prob more important to be comfortable offroad

This site is great: www.whatbars.com

Whatbars doesn't show side or top profile though, so you may have to do your own thing. For eg, here's my Ride Farr SupaWide vs Ritchey Beacon XLs with ramps rotated to a common angle.

If you find that XL frameset again let me know

It was on bike tart I think, and it's not on there now!

Anyone mention these?

https://ridefarr.co.uk/product-category/frames/

Thanks for that handlebar info folks - its helping me. What's not helping me is how easy Cotic's configurator is to use...

@legometeorology, new to me and I like the look of this - nicely subtle, nice touches with the sliding dropouts etc. Out of stock in XL though. https://ridefarr.co.uk/shop/farr-out-frame-kit-4130-cromo-frame-fork/

how about a Salsa Stormchaser?

It's a gravel bike with sliding dropouts.

how about a Salsa Stormchaser?

Thanks, but the Fargo would be my choice from the Salsa lineup. Stormchaser geometry less to my liking, not mad keen on the Fargo geometry either TBF.

Still undecided between sticking to what I know (flat-barred adventure/gravel) and something probably more appropriate for my use (a dropbar 29er / "aggro-gravel" - I read that somewhere...): Kona Unit vs Cotic Cascade.

Pluses and minuses to both - although with the Cascade the main negative is the cost. Framesets not hugely different cost but I'd need the full build for the Cascade to get the GRX levers, etc. whereas I'd swap my existing bits onto a Unit at lower cost but would still need to buy the full bike as XL frame-only unavailable. Unit is more similar to what I'm replacing, while the Cascade's more at the MTB end of the gravel scale and sounds like the ideal intro for a dropbar-phobe like me. I've already got a nice hardtail to cover trail use, so a Cascade would be a better partner to that than a Unit.

But since I'm undecided, please keep the suggestions (and advice) coming.

One more then. Sonder Camino. Available in flat or flared drop bar.

If you are worried about the price of the Cotic, how about the Spa Rove with an angleset? Geometry would end up very similar (I think)

One more then. Sonder Camino. Available in flat or flared drop bar.

I'd considered the Camino already. Ruled it out due to material but the geometry isn't that far away from the Cascade (-15mm reach, -5mm chainstays, -30mm wheelbase). I'm looking at it again as the GRX1 build is great value - I've a dropper I could swap in but would need something like the PNW lever.

If you are worried about the price of the Cotic, how about the Spa Rove with an angleset? Geometry would end up very similar (I think)

It would indeed: -2deg headset would give the same 69deg HA, within 0.7deg STA, main difference 25mm shorter reach and 10mm shorter ETT. Spa appear to be marketing the Rove as flat bar but the geometry's close to the Cascade, so no reason it wouldn't work with drops. With the exception of shifter/brake levers and a rear mech, I could use everything from my broken Titus. But I could do the same with a Cascade frameset if I used post-to-flatmount adaptors.

Possibly further confused about what to do now, but in a good way. Thanks @legometeorology and @mandog.

Update: Cascade frame ordered 🙂

Decided to embrace my (very distant) inner roadie and give drop bars another try. Had a good try on a roadie-style gravel bike locally and enjoyed it.

As an outsider, and if it's not too late to can your order, how about the Sour Bad Granny?

https://sour.bike/en/candy-shop/bikes/bad-granny/

Nope, it was hard enough making up my mind to get to the ordering stage - I don't think I can go through that again!

Drop bar mountain bikes are great! I love my Kona Sutra LTD, running 2.25 XC tyres on it which are nice and fast rolling on tarmac but still allow me to ride some proper off road singletrack. Only thing I’d really like is a dropper post; I bought the year before these became standard on the build.

*UPDATE*

NBD has come and gone with me finishing building my Cotic Cascade and managing a single, short shakedown ride before heading off for a family hol. I took it with me and made use of the SW Coast Path, managing many 1-2hr rides which away plus quite a few more on my usual local trails since getting back. It's all good!

No regrets moving to drop bars - I'd always shied away from them as a MTBer with a didgy lower back, but no issues. It helps I'm using Ritchey Beacon XLs: 52cm width across the hoods, 36deg flare and 670mm wide overall, with minimal 80mm drop (thanks to those earlier in this topic who suggested them). Only major expense was the GRX800 levers and mech: 1x11 plus a dropper controlled by the LH lever. All all just works.

Currently using everything else from my previous bike including eXotic fork for ease when building. Might try the Cotic fork to see for a higher stack height (I'm limited with the steerer length on the eXotic) although current position is comfy. I've got spare wheels with 29x2.4 Rekons to use sans mudguards although 700x50 with full guards is a useful setup at the moment.

Looks good. It's the first Cascade I've seen with guards fitted and it looks much better than I'd have expected it to.

The Beacon XL bars are an odd one. I tried them on my Cascade after running it with flat bars for a long while then picking up a set of Sram Force AXS shifters for a bargain price. I was wholly expecting to hate the bars and already had someone lined up to buy the shifters and bars if I didn't get on with them. Turns out the bike's an absolute hoot with the wide flared drops. I'm running mine with a 100mm SID fork and it's brilliant. I'll try a Firestarter carbon fork one day when I find some for a good price.

Thanks. It'll mostly be wearing that setup with the full guards - also used for commuting and there's enough tame local trails that 700x50s are sufficient.

I know I could've stuck with flat bars and barends on the Cascade but sizing would've made it feel shorter in reach, even in XL, compared to what I'm used to. You're right in saying its a hoot with flared drops. At times - such as last night on a wilder descent over many roots - I wished I had bigger tyres for more comfort/grip, but at no time was I missing having a flat bar. Very grateful for the suggestions made to try out a wide flared drop bar.

Now trying not to start looking for a 100mm travel fork to use instead of the Cotic rigid fork...

Which guards are you using, out of interest?

@crossed, SKS Edge AL56. Only just cover my rather plump 50mm Clement X'Plor MSOs. Much more rigid/robust than something like SKS Chromoplastics.

One of the new Singular Swifts if you can afford it?

[img] ?v=1687198019&width=823[/img]

Correct choice on the Cotic, looks absolutely lovely!

Ritchey Beacon are brilliant.

Ritchey corsalitos are better

There's no warranty on the Titus?

Kona Unit – yes.

Sold mine and regret it. Think I might buy another. Wish it was a bit lighter though. Great geometry.

I had a 26” Unit as a bike-to-work bike. Was fun. Liked the sliding dropouts.
Ended up putting gears and suspension forks on it. Was better.

Gave it away to a bike charity last year. I wasn’t riding it and instead was riding a ‘proper bike*’ an Orange Crush.

Karate Monkey looks very cool.

*27.5” so others may disagree

Edit. Late late late to the thread. Interested in the various bar ideas though. Got some drip bars with some ‘flare’ on my gravel bike but much prefer flatter bars. Don’t want to ditch the drop bar levers though (££) so some of the weird bars are … interesting.

Really like that Cotic Escapade, that colour looks great.  🙂  I have been playing with a fully rigid hardtail (on-one Huntsman) for exactly the type of stuff you are using that Cotic for, firstly with a 130mm fork, now on the classifieds   😉 and currently have a Cotic Alpaca fork to try.

This thread has really got me interested in the drop bar MTB idea though, especially as my Ti Tripster only has room for 40mm tyres. The thought of a drop bar MTB between the Tripster and Orange Evo I have seems the ideal option. Especially if the wheels from my Orange can swap to the Cascade type bike. keep the photos coming.

I meant Cascade   🙁